Zone1 The War In Heaven

[BackAgain]

Einstein proved, through his theory of general relativity that time by itself was not an absolute quantity. Time and space are united in a precise mathematical way to form space-time. This space-time is an absolute measure and can be used to with mathematical precision too determine how different physical processes in different locations interact with each other.

Thus, the most anyone can say is that time is a convenient measure of the expansion of space-time or the universe because time and space are united in a precise mathematical way. Time outside of our universe has no meaning to us inside our space-time.

That’s their story and they’re sticking with it.

 

[Slade3200]

No idea. The closest I can come to perceiving God is consciousness without form.

I believe what George Wald wrote, “That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.”

You do believe there is judgement and an afterlife, is that correct? Would I be wrong in assuming that that afterlife would involve a continuation of one’s existence in a state of heaven or hell (with or without god)?

 

[ding]

You do believe there is judgement and an afterlife, is that correct? Would I be wrong in assuming that that afterlife would involve a continuation of one’s existence in a state of heaven or hell (with or without god)?

No idea. I suspect it is beyond anything like here. It’s hard to wrap one’s mind around pure consciousness. What do you think it would be like to be infinite logic or infinite truth or infinite love? I’m not asking what it would be like to feel those “things,” I’m asking what do you think it would be like to be those “things.”

 

[Slade3200]

No idea. I suspect it is beyond anything like here. It’s hard to wrap one’s mind around pure consciousness. What do you think it would be like to be infinite logic or infinite truth or infinite love? I’m not saying what it would be like to feel those “things,” I’m saying what do you think it would be like to be those “things.”

I have no clue how it would feel to be those things… it’s sounds like you’re describing God… is that how you see him?

 

[ding]

I have no clue how it would feel to be those things… it’s sounds like you’re describing God… is that how you see him?

That’s how I perceive God. Like I said before I see God more like a verb than a noun. I have no idea what that would be or feel like either.

This is as far as I can go:

Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

 

[ding]

You do believe there is judgement and an afterlife, is that correct?

No. Not really but I don’t care to correct it because I shouldn’t have to.

 

[Slade3200]

That’s how I perceive God. Like I said before I see God more like a verb than a noun. I have no idea what that would be or feel like either.

This is as far as I can go:

Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

It sounds like you and I are closer than we think. My original description of God being the unknown/higher power, though vague seems to be in line with what you’re saying.

The theology stuff like good and evil and heaven and hell is made for this existence for our civilization to use for better or worse

 

[ding]

Would I be wrong in assuming that that afterlife would involve a continuation of one’s existence in a state of heaven or hell (with or without god)?

You would be wrong in assuming I assume that. I don’t take it any further than being eternally united or separated from God. I have no ideas what that would be like.

I don’t focus on the destination. I see no value in doing so. It’s weird you are so obsessed with this.

 

[Slade3200]

You would be wrong in assuming I assume that. I don’t take it any further than being eternally united or separated from God. I have no ideas what that would be like.

I don’t focus on the destination. I see no value in doing so. It’s weird you are so obsessed with this.

I’m just focused on it for this discussion. Heaven and hell is a big topic and one of the most significant when looking at civilizations and religions.

It’s my belief that heaven and hell are made up by man to try and control man through fear and reward and answers to questions that we don’t have the ability to understand. Things like infinity.

If we can’t understand God then we can’t say with certainty that he is all good or that we make a choice to be with or without him in the afterlife. Or even that there is an afterlife that we can comprehend. These thoughts are scary for many so the stories in religious being answers and comfort and security and a structure help is try and survive as communities.

That’s just my POV…. I still have much respect for those that choose a path of faith.

 

[Slade3200]

I’m just focused on it for this discussion. Heaven and hell is a big topic and one of the most significant when looking at civilizations and religions.

It’s my belief that heaven and hell are made up by man to try and control man through fear and reward and answers to questions that we don’t have the ability to understand. Things like infinity.

If we can’t understand God then we can’t say with certainty that he is all good or that we make a choice to be with or without him in the afterlife. Or even that there is an afterlife that we can comprehend. These thoughts are scary for many so the stories in religious being answers and comfort and security and a structure help is try and survive as communities.

That’s just my POV…. I still have much respect for those that choose a path of faith.

ding Ive been feeling bad about this last post. I never have the intention to throw doubt or try and mock or belittle anybodies belief system. I wasn’t intending to mock or belittle and you seem secure and intelligent enough to be secure in your beliefs, so I don't think there’s anything I could say to give you doubt…. but I wanted to apologize anyways. I have enjoyed the talk and thank you for the engagement.

 

[ding]

I’m just focused on it for this discussion. Heaven and hell is a big topic and one of the most significant when looking at civilizations and religions.

But it isn’t a big topic. How to live and how not to live is a big topic. I suspect it is something else motivating you.

 

[ding]

It’s my belief that heaven and hell are made up by man to try and control man through fear and reward and answers to questions that we don’t have the ability to understand. Things like infinity.

You mean like you believe God is made up to try to control man?

That sounds more like polytheism to me. Because it certainly doesn’t fit the monotheistic view of a creator God who gives man free will and allows him freedom in choosing to worship the created or the creator.

 

[Likkmee]

Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[ding]

If we can’t understand God then we can’t say with certainty that he is all good or that we make a choice to be with or without him in the afterlife.

Sure we can. We can learn about God through what he has created. Namely by studying ourselves which we know a great deal about.

As for your unhealthy focus on the afterlife, it’s getting in your way. It’s a convenient excuse to judge God.

 

[ding]

Or even that there is an afterlife that we can comprehend.

I can’t comprehend it which is why I don’t try to comprehend it. I only go as far as believing I will either be united or separated from God.

Seeing how you have no use for God now, being separated from God shouldn’t concern you in the slightest.

 

[ding]

These thoughts are scary for many so the stories in religious being answers and comfort and security and a structure help is try and survive as communities.

But they aren’t scary for you because you don’t believe it. And it’s not scary for me because I believe all existence is good and that good comes from bad. These beliefs don’t help me survive. These beliefs make me thrive. Being thankful, making sacrifices for others, self reflection - which is another way of saying confession - and forgiving others have all been scientifically proven to increase happiness. And when one is happy two things happen; dopamine is released - which gives us that happy feeling - and all the learning centers of the brain switch on. Success does not lead to happiness. Happiness leads to success.

So, no. These beliefs aren’t designed to control us. These beliefs help us lead happy and fruitful lives.

 

[ding]

That’s just my POV…. I still have much respect for those that choose a path of faith.

Thanks. I appreciate that. But I hope you don’t mind if I’m a little skeptical about that.

 

[ding]

ding Ive been feeling bad about this last post. I never have the intention to throw doubt or try and mock or belittle anybodies belief system. I wasn’t intending to mock or belittle and you seem secure and intelligent enough to be secure in your beliefs, so I don't think there’s anything I could say to give you doubt…. but I wanted to apologize anyways. I have enjoyed the talk and thank you for the engagement.

Thanks. That was genuine. I like genuine. Honest men can have honest differences of opinion. We have free will. Or at least the illusion of free will.

 

[Meriweather]

Much of that sounds man made to me. There needs to be fear and sacrifice and discipline to keep order and religions used that for centuries to control people.

Wanted to address this when I had more time. My guess is that more than ninety percent of parish priests in any one time, were about advising and comforting their parishioners about personal lives when they weren't teaching the parish about the life of Christ. They were about organizing help and taking care of those in the parish who needed a hand.

The Church did become involved in government for altruistic reasons--the cross and the sword together. In those days powerful families sent their older sons to the secular government, their younger to the church.

Powerful families. Bush, Clinton, Biden, Pelosi...and any number of politicians of both parties. Political Science: Scare people. Put people in need. Force them to look to the government to feed and protect them. It is going on now just as it is going on today. Unfortunately, a significant number of the population falls for this--it did then, as it does today.

You do no favors for placing total blame on the Church and what you seem to think came from the Body of Church. Yes, there were powerful people in the Church using age-old tactics--the same tactics people fall for today. But like today, there are swarms of citizens, of the faithful, of everyday, normal people, struggling to wiggle out from beneath the heel of government power, just as there were swarms in yesteryear trying to wiggle out beneath the heel of the powerful in their own time.

People who smugly believe they got out from the heel of the Church and all is now daisies under secular power will be rudely awakened. Hopefully they will remember that the body of the Church never was about governing, it was about extending a hand to help people, personally, to find the Way.

 

[Slade3200]

But it isn’t a big topic. How to live and how not to live is a big topic. I suspect it is something else motivating you.

The topic of the thread is the war in heaven