The US could Save $5.6B a year if it Switched from Coal to Solar – study

[Toddsterpatriot]

Two scientific papers say otherwise.

Plenty of scientific papers out there saying AGW is gonna kill us all.

You believe them as well?

 

[ding]

Plenty of scientific papers out there saying AGW is gonna kill us all.

You believe them as well?

Only the ones that trigger you. So right now it's just these two.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Two scientific papers say otherwise.

Neither of those papers claims solar energy will result in net cooling of the planet.

It's funny that you think they support your claim.

 

[ding]

Neither of those papers claims solar energy will result in net cooling of the planet.

It's funny that you think they support your claim.

They are invested in solar power. Their saying large solar farms induce a regional cooling effect is as good as I would expect.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

They are invested in solar power. Their saying large solar farms induce a regional cooling effect is as good as I would expect.

Regional?

That doesn't sound like global.

They must have a better understanding of net than you do.

 

[ding]

Regional?

That doesn't sound like global.

They must have a better understanding of net than you do.

Like I say.... the WIDESPREAD use of solar panels will help usher in the next glacial period. I couldn't be happier that you disagree. I will add your name to the list of abu afak, old rocks, and crick of people who disagree.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Like I say.... the WIDESPREAD use of solar panels will help usher in the next glacial period.

I know what you say.

Maybe one day you'll find a scientific paper that backs up your claim.

 

[ding]

I know what you say.

Maybe one day you'll find a scientific paper that backs up your claim.

Already have two that work perfectly with my conclusion. I use data from people who believe man is causing the planet to warm all the time. Doesn't mean their data is bad, just their conclusion. If I had to worry about what jackanapes like you thought I'd never have an independent thought. I pity people who are incapable of independent thought. You yourself don't actually have an independent thought on this. You just have criticisms against mine. That's a product of your education. You never learned to state was something was. Just what it wasn't.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Already have two that work perfectly with my conclusion. I use data from people who believe man is causing the planet to warm all the time. Doesn't mean their data is bad, just their conclusion. If I had to worry about what jackanapes like you thought I'd never have an independent thought. I pity people who are incapable of independent thought. You yourself don't actually have an independent thought on this. You just have criticisms against mine. That's a product of your education. You never learned to state was something was. Just what it wasn't.

Already have two that work perfectly with my conclusion.

Neither one claimed net cooling.

 

[ding]

Already have two that work perfectly with my conclusion.

Neither one claimed net cooling.

Like I said before... I use data from people who believe man is causing the planet to warm all the time. Doesn't mean their data is bad, just their conclusion. I'm not sure why you believe a reduction in longwave radiation isn't synonymous with a reduction in radiative forcing of CO2 which is synonymous with a cooling effect, but there it is.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Like I said before... I use data from people who believe man is causing the planet to warm all the time. Doesn't mean their data is bad, just their conclusion. I'm not sure why you believe a reduction in longwave radiation isn't synonymous with a reduction in radiative forcing of CO2 which is synonymous with a cooling effect, but there it is.

Take two parcels of land with typical albedo (about .30).
Cover one with asphalt, albedo about 0.05. Cover the other with solar panels, albedo about 0.05.
Don't plug the panels into the grid yet.

It should be obvious that both parcels absorb more solar energy and make their vicinity warmer.
They also make the planet warmer.

Now plug in the solar panels. Transmit that power 1 mile away, 10 miles away, 100 miles away, 1000 miles away. In all those cases, the net warming will be the same. In all those cases the planet will be warmer than it would be without the asphalt or without the panels.

If you want to post a paper that claims that warming will lead to a new ice age, go for it.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue to point out the flaws in your claim.

 

[ding]

Take two parcels of land with typical albedo (about .30).
Cover one with asphalt, albedo about 0.05. Cover the other with solar panels, albedo about 0.05.
Don't plug the panels into the grid yet.

It should be obvious that both parcels absorb more solar energy and make their vicinity warmer.
They also make the planet warmer.

Now plug in the solar panels. Transmit that power 1 mile away, 10 miles away, 100 miles away, 1000 miles away. In all those cases, the net warming will be the same. In all those cases the planet will be warmer than it would be without the asphalt or without the panels.

If you want to post a paper that claims that warming will lead to a new ice age, go for it.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue to point out the flaws in your claim.

I already have two papers saying solar farms reduce longwave radiation. I think you are the person who needs to publish a paper.

 

[ding]

In the meantime, I'm going to continue to point out the flaws in your claim.

You are going to be busy.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356860141_Direct_impact_of_solar_farm_deployment_on_surface_longwave_radiation

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I already have two papers saying solar farms reduce longwave radiation. I think you are the person who needs to publish a paper.

Right.
And neither one claimed net cooling.
Are you going to find a paper that does?

 

[ding]

Right.
And neither one claimed net cooling.
Are you going to find a paper that does?

Longwave radiation before and after says otherwise.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You are going to be busy.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356860141_Direct_impact_of_solar_farm_deployment_on_surface_longwave_radiation

The most apparent and visible effect of solar farming is the reduction of surface reflectance. Solar panels are designed to absorb as much solar energy as possible for maximum energy generation. Unlike other land cover changes where all absorbed solar energy is converted to thermal energy, a portion of solar energy absorbed by solar panels is converted to electricity. The current conversion efficiency (fraction of incoming solar energy converted to electricity) ranges from 10.5% to 26.7% (Green et al., 2020). Thus, still a considerable amount of absorbed solar energy is converted to the thermal energy by the solar panels. By doing so, the solar farming could affect the surface energy balance. Several climate modeling studies simulated the potential climate effects of large-scale solar farming due to such perturbation on the surface net downward solar radiation. These studies replaced the surface albedo of the original surface by the assigned effective surface albedo of a typical solar farm (Hu et al., 2016; Y. Li et al., 2018; Lu et al., 2020; Millstein & Menon, 2011). They suggested that, if solar farms were to be built in a large scale in the future, the reduction of reflected solar radiation and the energy conversion to electricity could at least result in a significant regional climate effect. These studies, however, disagreed with the sign and magnitude of the effect, which is primarily due to different assumptions on the solar panels, the scale of deployment, and the models used for the simulations.

Both in-situ measurements (Barron-Gafford et al., 2016; Broadbent et al., 2019; Chang et al., 2018) and satellite retrievals (Fan & Huang, 2020; Zhang & Xu, 2020) have consistently supported this shortwave effect of solar farms and provided observational constraints for modeling studies. Specifically, they quantified the magnitude of the changes in surface spectral reflectances, which depends on radiative properties of solar panels and underlying surfaces. Compared to in-situ measurements, long records of high-quality satellite global observations enable us to contrast not only between solar farms and adjacent background surfaces but also before and after the construction of solar farms. Using the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometers (MODIS) aboard the NASA Aqua satellite, our prior work (Fan & Huang, 2020) analyzed the observations above six solar farms in the southwestern U.S. and showed an up to 25% reduction in surface reflectance over seven visible and near-infrared MODIS bands, which led to a ~23% decrease in upward shortwave radiative flux at the surface and ~14-18% decrease at the top of the atmosphere.

Thanks. That was fun.

 

[ding]

The most apparent and visible effect of solar farming is the reduction of surface reflectance. Solar panels are designed to absorb as much solar energy as possible for maximum energy generation. Unlike other land cover changes where all absorbed solar energy is converted to thermal energy, a portion of solar energy absorbed by solar panels is converted to electricity. The current conversion efficiency (fraction of incoming solar energy converted to electricity) ranges from 10.5% to 26.7% (Green et al., 2020). Thus, still a considerable amount of absorbed solar energy is converted to the thermal energy by the solar panels. By doing so, the solar farming could affect the surface energy balance. Several climate modeling studies simulated the potential climate effects of large-scale solar farming due to such perturbation on the surface net downward solar radiation. These studies replaced the surface albedo of the original surface by the assigned effective surface albedo of a typical solar farm (Hu et al., 2016; Y. Li et al., 2018; Lu et al., 2020; Millstein & Menon, 2011). They suggested that, if solar farms were to be built in a large scale in the future, the reduction of reflected solar radiation and the energy conversion to electricity could at least result in a significant regional climate effect. These studies, however, disagreed with the sign and magnitude of the effect, which is primarily due to different assumptions on the solar panels, the scale of deployment, and the models used for the simulations.

Both in-situ measurements (Barron-Gafford et al., 2016; Broadbent et al., 2019; Chang et al., 2018) and satellite retrievals (Fan & Huang, 2020; Zhang & Xu, 2020) have consistently supported this shortwave effect of solar farms and provided observational constraints for modeling studies. Specifically, they quantified the magnitude of the changes in surface spectral reflectances, which depends on radiative properties of solar panels and underlying surfaces. Compared to in-situ measurements, long records of high-quality satellite global observations enable us to contrast not only between solar farms and adjacent background surfaces but also before and after the construction of solar farms. Using the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometers (MODIS) aboard the NASA Aqua satellite, our prior work (Fan & Huang, 2020) analyzed the observations above six solar farms in the southwestern U.S. and showed an up to 25% reduction in surface reflectance over seven visible and near-infrared MODIS bands, which led to a ~23% decrease in upward shortwave radiative flux at the surface and ~14-18% decrease at the top of the atmosphere.

Thanks. That was fun.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

View attachment 609850

That's awesome!

Now where is the one that shows net cooling?

 

[ding]

That's awesome!

Now where is the one that shows net cooling?

the reduction of reflected solar radiation and the energy conversion to electricity could at least result in a significant regional climate effect.

Land Surface Temperature (LST) is derived from thermal infrared radiance measured using space-borne radiometers. Compared to adjacent regions without changes before and after solar farm constructions, the solar farm sites have reduced outgoing radiances in three MODIS infrared window channels. Such reduction in upward longwave radiation is consistent with previous in-situ measurements. The MYD11A2 results show constant emissivities before and after solar farm constructions because its land type classification algorithm is not aware of the presence of solar farms. The estimated daytime and nighttime LST reduction due to solar farm deployment are ~1-4K and ~0.2-0.9K, respectively.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356860141_Direct_impact_of_solar_farm_deployment_on_surface_longwave_radiation

 

[ding]

That's awesome!

Now where is the one that shows net cooling?

I am truly sorry you can't read that graphic. Apparently you don't understand what a reduction in longwave radiation means.