The United States IS a Christian Nation

[Intense]

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:320
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808. ME 16:317

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283

"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382

"The rights [to religious freedom] are of the natural rights of mankind, and... if any act shall be... passed to repeal [an act granting those rights] or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. (*) ME 2:303, Papers 2:546


The Private Nature of Religion
"I have ever thought religion a concern purely between our God and our consciences, for which we were accountable to Him, and not to the priests." --Thomas Jefferson to Mrs. M. Harrison Smith, 1816. ME 15:60

"From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:545

"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1813.

"I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803. ME 10:378

"Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone. I inquire after no man's, and trouble none with mine." --Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814. ME 14:198
Jefferson on Politics & Government: Freedom of Religion

 

[Intense]

Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents. The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves.
Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)

 

[Modbert]

The Founding Fathers never put their own personal religion into this country. Some tend to forget, but they are the ones who put in the whole "Separation of Church and State" and frequently spoke contradicting opinions on religion.

Thomas Jefferson even had his own bible that he took out the stuff he didn't like or agree with.

 

[JakeStarkey]

This is interesting from http://www.religioustolerance.org/virg_rel.htm. Quoting

In Virginia, as the War of Independence approached, the Church of England had become entrenched in a position of power and was having an increasing influence over political affairs in Virginia. Nine of the 13 colonies had an established "official" state religion. Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) was profoundly convinced in the importance of individual freedom of religion and freedom from religion. He felt that this was the best guarantee that the religious intolerance and bloodshed seen in of many European countries would not be exported to America.

In 1777, he drafted An Act for Establishing Religious Freedom. 1 In 1779, he became Governor and introduced the act into the legislature. However, strong opposition from the primarily Anglican "old guard" stalled the bill. An alternative bill was advanced by Patrick Henry. It proposed that Christianity become the established religion of the State and that all denominations be given equal privileges.

Jefferson's bill gradually collected support from Baptists, Presbyterians, freethinkers, Jews, a few Anglicans, people who were tired of religious conflict and others. A dramatic speech by James Madison (1751-1836) to the Virginia General Assembly called A Memorial and Remonstrance 2 dramatically swayed support for Jefferson's bill. Somewhat amended, 3 it became law on 1786-JAN-16. The text of the bill is available online. 4

A key part of the act, Section II reads:

"II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

Elsewhere, the act reads:

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical..."

And:

"...our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions ..."

Religious freedom is often called the "first freedom."



Celebration of Religious Freedom:
Religious Freedom Day is pronounced yearly by the President of the U.S. to be held on the anniversary of the passage of the Virginia Statute -- JAN-16.

A Council for America's First Freedom was founded in 1984 on the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the Virginia Statute. They hold a First Freedom Awards Dinner near the anniversary of this law. The Council states that the passage of the Statute in 1784 "...was the first time in the history of western civilization that a law was enacted that protected religious freedom ..." for everyone. 5



References
"The Papers of Thomas Jefferson", Princeton, (1950)
E.S. Gaustad, "Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation", Harper & Row, New York NY, (1987), P. 141-149
ibid, P. 149-151
The text of "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom" is available at: http://www.firstfreedom.org/statute.html

 

[Cecilie1200]

The Founding Fathers never put their own personal religion into this country. Some tend to forget, but they are the ones who put in the whole "Separation of Church and State" and frequently spoke contradicting opinions on religion.

Thomas Jefferson even had his own bible that he took out the stuff he didn't like or agree with.

Oh, good GOD, not this ignorant bullshit again.

The Founding Fathers "put in" separation of church and state, did they? Put it in where, exactly? And if they really had such a problem with religion, why did several of the states have official state churches during their time?

And the Jefferson Bible was not "his own Bible that he took out the stuff he didn't like or agree with", you incredible, insufferable halfwit. As it is more correctly titled, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" was a compilation by Jefferson of the ethical teachings of Jesus Christ that he, Jefferson, particularly admired and respected. It was no more intended to be a revision or rewrite of the Bible "without the stuff he didn't like" than a book of devotions would be.

It would be of great help to all of us if you tweekos would either make an effort to know something about the topics you presume to spew on, or just recognized that you know nothing and shut the hell up.

 

[Father Time]

The Founding Fathers never put their own personal religion into this country. Some tend to forget, but they are the ones who put in the whole "Separation of Church and State" and frequently spoke contradicting opinions on religion.

Thomas Jefferson even had his own bible that he took out the stuff he didn't like or agree with.

Oh, good GOD, not this ignorant bullshit again.

The Founding Fathers "put in" separation of church and state, did they? Put it in where, exactly? And if they really had such a problem with religion, why did several of the states have official state churches during their time?

Because before the 14th amendment the bill of rights could only limit what the federal government did and not what the state governments did.

 

[Modbert]

Oh, good GOD, not this ignorant bullshit again.

The Founding Fathers "put in" separation of church and state, did they? Put it in where, exactly? And if they really had such a problem with religion, why did several of the states have official state churches during their time?

And the Jefferson Bible was not "his own Bible that he took out the stuff he didn't like or agree with", you incredible, insufferable halfwit. As it is more correctly titled, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" was a compilation by Jefferson of the ethical teachings of Jesus Christ that he, Jefferson, particularly admired and respected. It was no more intended to be a revision or rewrite of the Bible "without the stuff he didn't like" than a book of devotions would be.

It would be of great help to all of us if you tweekos would either make an effort to know something about the topics you presume to spew on, or just recognized that you know nothing and shut the hell up.

Because I'm not going to waste too much time responding to your spewing hateful rhetoric:

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.

Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And of course there are these quotes:

No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School Act, 1817. ME 17:425

"I do not know that it is a duty to disturb by missionaries the religion and peace of other countries, who may think themselves bound to extinguish by fire and fagot the heresies to which we give the name of conversions, and quote our own example for it. Were the Pope, or his holy allies, to send in mission to us some thousands of Jesuit priests to convert us to their orthodoxy, I suspect that we should deem and treat it as a national aggression on our peace and faith." --Thomas Jefferson to Michael Megear, 1823. ME 15:434

Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Jefferson Bible begins with an account of Jesus’s birth without references to angels, genealogy, or prophecy. Miracles, references to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus' resurrection are also absent from the Jefferson Bible.[5] The work ends with the words: “Now, in the place where he was crucified, there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus. And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.” These words correspond to the ending of John 19 in the Bible.

Looks like he took out the stuff he didn't like in it.

Also, about the whole states having official churches/religions, I recommend you look at Jake's post on this page.

 

[Ralph]

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:320
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808. ME 16:317

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283

"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382

"The rights [to religious freedom] are of the natural rights of mankind, and... if any act shall be... passed to repeal [an act granting those rights] or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. (*) ME 2:303, Papers 2:546


The Private Nature of Religion
"I have ever thought religion a concern purely between our God and our consciences, for which we were accountable to Him, and not to the priests." --Thomas Jefferson to Mrs. M. Harrison Smith, 1816. ME 15:60

"From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:545

"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1813.

"I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803. ME 10:378

"Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone. I inquire after no man's, and trouble none with mine." --Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814. ME 14:198
Jefferson on Politics & Government: Freedom of Religion

That was the intent of the 1st....but that separation was mandated to stop the Congress of the Central Government from making ANY LAW 'the establishment' thereof in the form of LEGISLATION. It was WE THE PEOPLE/STATES that drafted this very first Article in the STATES BILL OF RIGHTS. The first also quite clearly detailed the fact that RELIGION, as in the "FREEDOM OF" was still held by the STATE and LOCAL governments. And such was the case for nearly 200 years....the COMMAND for BIG BROTHER to include ALL 3 BRANCHES thereof to keep their noses out LOCAL governments business in relation to the FREEDOM to choose what religion these local people wanted to follow.....then came the BREACH of that Constitutional mandate on Feb. 10, 1947. Eversion v. Board of Education.


The "Roosevelt" appointed Court by the margin of 5-4......effectively dismissed the SPIRIT and INTENT of the 1st by INCORPORATING "new law" upon the entire nation.....without any act of legislation by BREACHING the establishment clause which FORBID the CENTRAL GOVERNMENT from establishing law in relation to RELIGION. In effect SCOTUS circumvented the WILL of WE THE PEOPLE and performed by OPINION with only the sound of a judges gavel coming from and unelected CIVIL servant who had taken an oath to PROTECT the US CONSTITUTION...not gut it, and MADE NEW LAW that NOT ONLY forbid the FEDS from incorporating any law that effects the entire nation in relation to religion........they opined the freedom "OF" found in the 1st amendment and replaced it with a "FROM" which is never mentioned in that article of STATES RIGHTS....and incorporated the mandate upon the VERY STATES.....WE THE PEOPLE who drafted such an AMENDMENT in the first place to STOP "CONGRESS" form doing as much.

Their excuse being.....the 1st was ambiguous, which is a blatant fabrication. As there are over 15,000 pieces of historical documentation that clearly defines WE THE PEOPLES freedom and position in relation to RELIGION. The most notable was the documented position of the one who drafted the WORDS found in the first...who is documented on more than one occasion as declaring the Holy Scriptures are a valuable tool of instruction in this nation's PUBLIC CLASSROOMS.....AT THE LOCAL LEVEL

The "ambiguity" is found only in one place...between the ears of all the communist liberals of this nation, that have now 'incorporated' the religion of the HUMAN MIND.....secular humanism upon the entire nation by circumventing the United States Constitution....just as described in great detail in the Congressional Record of 1963, which is still their intent to 'stealthly' change this CHRISTIAN nation and republic into a SECULAR communist social utopia.

Now we even have one of the American Communist Lawyer Union (ACLU) representatives assume the position as "Commander in Least".....as he has openly declared this nation's society and CONSTITUTION was founded with DEEP flaws and remains flawed...even today. Take note of just how many positions taken directly from the list of 45 Goals from the Communist Agenda found in the Congressional record Jan. 10, 1963....he has openly and blatantly attempted to SHOVE with all haste upon WE THE PEOPLE...in only 8 months.

[www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm

http://www.breakthematrix.com/Candidates/Obama-says-Constitution-Deeply-Flawed

 

[Setarcos]

Do Christians today support Slavery?

Do Jews today Support Slavery?

No.

So your defense of the biblical texts is that you don't follow the bible anyway?

No. I read and Take the Bible Very Seriously. I study the Bible. I answer to God. The Bible has Many Valuable Lessons and Secrets to Discern. I Refuse to Use Scripture to Manipulate Others. I study that which appears to contradict or mislead, and am wary of Corruption and False Direction.

So it's not inerrant? Then where is any supporting evidence?

Oh, good GOD, not this ignorant bullshit again.

The Founding Fathers "put in" separation of church and state, did they? Put it in where, exactly?

Let's ask the founding fathers...

Mr Adams, is the United States a Christian Nation?

the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,

The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

Case Closed.

It would be of great help to all of us if you tweekos would either make an effort to know something about the topics you presume to spew on, or just recognized that you know nothing and shut the hell up

 

[Intense]

The Founding Fathers never put their own personal religion into this country. Some tend to forget, but they are the ones who put in the whole "Separation of Church and State" and frequently spoke contradicting opinions on religion.

Thomas Jefferson even had his own bible that he took out the stuff he didn't like or agree with.

Agreed.

 

[Intense]

The Founding Fathers never put their own personal religion into this country. Some tend to forget, but they are the ones who put in the whole "Separation of Church and State" and frequently spoke contradicting opinions on religion.

Thomas Jefferson even had his own bible that he took out the stuff he didn't like or agree with.

Oh, good GOD, not this ignorant bullshit again.

The Founding Fathers "put in" separation of church and state, did they? Put it in where, exactly? And if they really had such a problem with religion, why did several of the states have official state churches during their time?

And the Jefferson Bible was not "his own Bible that he took out the stuff he didn't like or agree with", you incredible, insufferable halfwit. As it is more correctly titled, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" was a compilation by Jefferson of the ethical teachings of Jesus Christ that he, Jefferson, particularly admired and respected. It was no more intended to be a revision or rewrite of the Bible "without the stuff he didn't like" than a book of devotions would be.

It would be of great help to all of us if you tweekos would either make an effort to know something about the topics you presume to spew on, or just recognized that you know nothing and shut the hell up.

Separation of Church and State Protected Both, the Churches and the State. You do not want Judges making Religious Judgments, nor Clergy pronouncing Judgment on Civil Matters. They do not lose voice, in either case.

 

[Intense]

So your defense of the biblical texts is that you don't follow the bible anyway?

No. I read and Take the Bible Very Seriously. I study the Bible. I answer to God. The Bible has Many Valuable Lessons and Secrets to Discern. I Refuse to Use Scripture to Manipulate Others. I study that which appears to contradict or mislead, and am wary of Corruption and False Direction.

So it's not inerrant? Then where is any supporting evidence?

Oh, good GOD, not this ignorant bullshit again.

The Founding Fathers "put in" separation of church and state, did they? Put it in where, exactly?

Let's ask the founding fathers...

Mr Adams, is the United States a Christian Nation?

the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,

The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

Case Closed.

It would be of great help to all of us if you tweekos would either make an effort to know something about the topics you presume to spew on, or just recognized that you know nothing and shut the hell up

Pretty sure of yourself in all things, Setacros. I've spent allot of time on you yet I don't recall you answering much. What is Your Faith? Elaborate.

When You do We can continue on the subject of Contradiction. You do your Homework, I'll do mine. Short of that Have a nice day.

 

[Setarcos]

It has been proven that the US is not a "Christian Nation" and was never intended as such.

As an aside, it was proven that you do not follow the bible you claim to follow and that your religion is false. Also as an aside, it was shown that the bible evidence of nothing at all.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
________________________________________
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
________________________________________
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
________________________________________
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
________________________________________
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
________________________________________
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
________________________________________
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
________________________________________
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
________________________________________
You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819
________________________________________
As you say of yourslef, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819
________________________________________
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
________________________________________
To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820
________________________________________
Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.
-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.
________________________________________
I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
________________________________________
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
________________________________________
It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

 

[Intense]

It has been proven that the US is not a "Christian Nation" and was never intended as such.

As an aside, it was proven that you do not follow the bible you claim to follow and that your religion is false. Also as an aside, it was shown that the bible evidence of nothing at all.

I do not Believe the Bible is God. I Believe in God. I study the Bible. I Study God. My Religion is Just That , My Religion. I Neither Lead Nor Follow. My Religion is True to Me. The Bible Holds many Truths.

What is evident is Your Prejudice against, God, Bible, and Me. God, because You fail to State what You believe. The Bible because You disrespect and Trash, and Dishonor, What You fail to grasp or understand, and Me because You add and take away from what I say, to suit your self. I have plainly told you that I am not a Fundamentalist Christian. I am a Christian.

I believe that Scripture was corrupted by people just like You in earlier Times. That is Why I do not take All at Face Value. You are here on a Religious Thread, to do harm and sow dissension. That is Your Business. Blow me aside, that changes nothing. I personally have no desire to study or share scripture with one in your state.

You accuse me of a False Religion. Again I try my best to follow Two Commandments

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

The Relationship I have with God is Through Conscience. That is Enough for me. I Pray for your Awakening.

You are Free to say that I am not a Fundamentalist. You are not Free to Condemn. You are not My Judge.

 

[Setarcos]

What I believe is irrelevant to the discussion, for we are not discussing my beliefs.

Quoting bible versus only highlights your ignorance.

 

[Intense]

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
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They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
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Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
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History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
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The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
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Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
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In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
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If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
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You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819
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As you say of yourslef, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819
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Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820
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To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820
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Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.
-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.
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I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
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And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
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It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

It's good to keep in mind that even believers saw corruption in both Government and Clergy, then as now. We never stop being Human, Our Own Worst Enemies can even be Internal. Jefferson Believed in God, what he didn't trust was the written word. He Preferred His Own Reason, to others mandates. That is very understandable.

 

[ABikerSailor]

What I believe is irrelevant to the discussion, for we are not discussing my beliefs.

Quoting bible versus only highlights your ignorance.

Just trying to help............

verse
  /vɜrs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vurs] Show IPA ,noun, adjective, verb, versed, vers⋅ing.
Use verses in a Sentence
See web results for verses
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–noun
1. (not in technical use) a stanza.
2. a succession of metrical feet written, printed, or orally composed as one line; one of the lines of a poem.
3. a particular type of metrical line: a hexameter verse.
4. a poem, or piece of poetry.
5. metrical composition; poetry, esp. as involving metrical form.
6. metrical writing distinguished from poetry because of its inferior quality: a writer of verse, not poetry.
7. a particular type of metrical composition: elegiac verse.
8. the collective poetry of an author, period, nation, etc.: Miltonian verse; American verse.
9. one of the short conventional divisions of a chapter of the Bible.
10. Music.
a. that part of a song following the introduction and preceding the chorus.
b. a part of a song designed to be sung by a solo voice.
11. Rare. a line of prose, esp. a sentence, or part of a sentence, written as one line.
12. Rare. a subdivision in any literary work.

ver⋅sus
  /ˈvɜrsəs, -səz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vur-suhs, -suhz] Show IPA
Use versus in a Sentence
See web results for versus
See images of versus
–preposition
1. against (used esp. to indicate an action brought by one party against another in a court of law, or to denote competing teams or players in a sports contest): Smith versus Jones; Army versus Navy.
2. as compared to or as one of two choices; in contrast with: traveling by plane versus traveling by train. Abbreviation: v., vs.

The only reason I bring this up, is because the use of a single word (that sounds the same) can cause great confusion on occasion.

"Using Bible versus" means that you're fighting with the Bible.

"Using Bible verses" means that you're quoting (not fighting) the Bible.

Cheers.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

better we waterboard ahmed then let him blow up a building

douche bag

The United States IS a Christian Nation ... that waterboards.

Jesus would be proud.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

disclaimer: I am a JEW.

I believe we are a christian nation, and am not threatened, scared, or bothered by my christians brothers in any way.

Very confusing, first Obama says that we're not a Christian nation, then world acclaimed religion professors from such universities as the prestigious Boston University, acclaim that .... well in fact, the US is pervasively Christian and only a Christian would be so blind as to not see that fact.

In one of his keenest observations, Prothero relates that when he discusses the "Christian America" question in his classes, evangelical Christians describe America as a multicultural nation of religious diversity while non-Christian students see the nation as pervasively Christian. As he writes, "my Jewish students tell me you have to be blind (or Christian) not to see that this is a Christian country."

I would tend to agree, as Christians or even "Judeo-Christian" aligned persons, the ability to see just how Christian we are is inadequate since we don't know anything else.

We do not frequently visit or live in Muslim countries, or in East Asia, or India where Christianity has hardly shaped their worldview.

And we rarely associate with such persons enough to get an adequate perspective.

From an outside perspective, it would seem that Obama's comments would only be seen as crazy, or pandering, or false. I'm only suggesting that would be the case, I don't know if anyone has made that claim from say...the Middle East.

But, regarding the US, it seems someone is trying to change our "perception" and is getting away with it because of our inability to perceive the truth otherwise.

AlbertMohler.com