The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Newby]

The Roman Republic was a very successful government. It lasted from 510 BC until 23 BC - almost 500 years.
A brief History of Rome

Allie claims the US was patterned after the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. Bodecea has it right.

But from what I read the conversation was about the Roman Empire, I haven't read the whole thing, just the last several pages.

The point Allie was making was that the republic of the US was founded on the republic of rome and she claimed rome was a theocracy. I haven't read any history books attributing our form of government to the Roman empire.

Here's more food for thought:

The first thing to note about the Constitution of the United States is that it proposes three branches of government, separate but equal, each with their own enumerated powers. This is a strange setup considering that the Bible does not describe any human governance remotely resembling the system established by the Constitution. There are only two basic types of governance mentioned in the Bible at all, really: monarchies and the rule by Judges.

Additionally, in the Declaration of Independence, the Founding Fathers clearly state that governments “deriv[e] their just powers from the consent of the governed.” This is at odds with the Letter of Paul to the Romans, where Paul clearly states that “there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.” Indeed, according to Paul, all of the Founding Fathers who participated in the American Revolution were sinful, because “whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.”
Is American Government Based on Christianity? | Heretical Ideas Magazine

Where's her original post?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Secularity is the state of being free from religious or spiritual qualities. This means that religious belief should be kept in the privacy of an individual. The belief or non belief of a person is deliberately ignored by state administration. This does not mean any rejection or denial of religion.

Secularism has two distinct meanings:

1- It asserts the freedom of religion, and freedom from religion, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions.

2- It refers to a belief that human activities and decisions should be based on evidence and fact, and not superstitious beliefs, however devoutly held, and that policy should be free from religious domination.

Secular Nations

Separation of church and state is different than separation of religion and state....

 

[Sky Dancer]

I don't know. What I do know is the Rome was not a theocracy and neither is the US. I think it would take a lot of research that Allie hasn't provided to prove her claim that our form of government was patterned on Rome. Bottom line. The US was not founded on Christianity.

It was modeled on the British government. The legislature is modeled after Parliament.

 

[JBeukema]

'Rome' is like 'Ancient Greece'

You have to specify exactly what region your talking about and during what timespan.

Seriously, people.

 

[Newby]

I don't know. What I do know is the Rome was not a theocracy and neither is the US. I think it would take a lot of research that Allie hasn't provided to prove her claim that our form of government was patterned on Rome.

The roman empire was a theocrasy for a period of time, so it all depends on where you are setting the parameters. I know of no christians personally that want this to be a theocrasy anyway, so it's a stupid argument to begin with in my opinion.

 

[Newby]

'Rome' is like 'Ancient Greece'

You have to specify exactly what region your talking about and during what timespan.

Seriously, people.

Exactly.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I don't know. What I do know is the Rome was not a theocracy and neither is the US. I think it would take a lot of research that Allie hasn't provided to prove her claim that our form of government was patterned on Rome.

The roman empire was a theocrasy for a period of time, so it all depends on where you are setting the parameters. I know of no christians personally that want this to be a theocrasy anyway, so it's a stupid argument to begin with in my opinion.

I can name some groups of Christians that want the US to be a theocracy. I don't think they'll ever succeed.

Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less... Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ." (From The Changing of the Guard: Biblical Principles for Political Action by George Grant, published in 1987 by Dominion Press)


Theocratic Organizations

Alliance for Marriage
American Center for Law and Justice
American Family Association
American Vision - founded by Gary Demar, leading theocratic ideologue
Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
Chalcedon Foundation - led by R. J. Rushdoony
Christian Action Network
Christian Business Men's Committee
Christian Coalition of America
Christian Exodus
ChristianAmerica.Com
Citizens for Excellence in Education - arm of National Association of Christian Educators
CitizenLink.Com - an arm of Focus on the Family
Coalition on Revival - Applying Biblical Principles to Every Sphere of Life and Thought
Concerned Women for America
Constitutional Law for Enlightened Citizens
Coral Ridge Ministries - led by D. James Kennedy
Council for National Policy - secret government council policy formed by Tim LaHaye
Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
Creation Resource Foundation
Eagle Forum
Family Policy Network
Family Research Council
Free Congress Foundation
Home School Foundation - funded by the HSLDF
Home School Legal Defense Foundation (HSLDF)
Institute for Christian Economics - led by Gary North
National Association of Christian Educators (NACE)
Joshua Generation - aimed at 11 to 19 year olds; affiliated with Patrick Henry College
National Center for Home Education - affiliated with HSLDF
National Clergy Council
National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI)- funded by HSLDF
Operation Rescue
Restore America
Rutherford Institute
Traditional Values Coalition
Vision America - founded by Rick Scarborough, Baptist
Vision Forum Ministries
Wall Builders - led by David Barton
Worldview Weekend

Theocratic Educational Institutions

Patrick Henry College - for homeschooled children, partner of HSLDF
Regent University - "Regent" refers to Christian rulers who will govern the nation

Theocratic Publications and Media

A Christian Manifesto - address by Francis A. Schaeffer; summary of theocratic views
A Manifesto for the Christian Church - endorsed by the major theocratic players
American Vision Home School Online Store
Biblical Worldview Magazine
Citizen Magazine - published by Focus on the Family
Civilized Revolt (Formerly Virtue Magazine)
FreeBooks - from the Institute for Christian Economics
Generations - Radio Program
Home School Heartbeat (Radio program)
LifeWay Homeschool, Southern Baptist Convention - affiliated with HSLDF & NHERI
WorldView Magazine
http://www.brucegourley.com/christiannation/theocracy.htm

 

[JBeukema]

Wait, Newby's a female?

 

[Samson]

I would like Allie Baba to explain how the Roman Republic, which our Founders modeled our government after, persecuted Christians...when the Roman Republic fell before Jesus was even born.......

For goddsake Bod....I'll delete this post if you delete the original....

Yeah, that's a bit embarassing there, no doubt. Hopefully it was a joke.

I get what Bod is saying, but its so outrageously hyperbolic to say "Our Founders Modeled our government after the Roman Republic."

The US government was modeled after the British Parliment and British Judiciary minus any monarch, but instead, and elected president.

While the Bicarmeal legislature may have been theoretically "Roman" it never really existed during or after the Roman Republic. Instead it was a medieval invention which eventually controlled the British Government.

 

[Samson]

Wait, Newby's a female?

Oh yeah, baby....

 

[AllieBaba]

The Roman Republic was a very successful government. It lasted from 510 BC until 23 BC - almost 500 years.
A brief History of Rome

Allie claims the US was patterned after the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. Bodecea has it right.

But from what I read the conversation was about the Roman Empire, I haven't read the whole thing, just the last several pages.

The point Allie was making was that the republic of the US was founded on the republic of rome and she claimed rome was a theocracy. I haven't read any history books attributing our form of government to the Roman empire.

Here's more food for thought:

The first thing to note about the Constitution of the United States is that it proposes three branches of government, separate but equal, each with their own enumerated powers. This is a strange setup considering that the Bible does not describe any human governance remotely resembling the system established by the Constitution. There are only two basic types of governance mentioned in the Bible at all, really: monarchies and the rule by Judges.

Additionally, in the Declaration of Independence, the Founding Fathers clearly state that governments “deriv[e] their just powers from the consent of the governed.” This is at odds with the Letter of Paul to the Romans, where Paul clearly states that “there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.” Indeed, according to Paul, all of the Founding Fathers who participated in the American Revolution were sinful, because “whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.”
Is American Government Based on Christianity? | Heretical Ideas Magazine

I never claimed the US was patterned after rome, you nincompoop.

 

[AllieBaba]

And once again, nobody claimed the US was a theocracy, either. It is founded on Christian tenets. There's a difference.

 

[Sky Dancer]

And once again, nobody claimed the US was a theocracy, either. It is founded on Christian tenets. There's a difference.

You have not proven your claim. Christ is not mentioned in any of our Governments documents. Wishing so don't make it so.

 

[JBeukema]

America was founded on Liberal tenants, people.

Hell, they borrowed whole sentences from Locke.

 

[Sky Dancer]

1620 - While America has been a nation of Christians, it was not founded to be a Christian nation. Of course, the Pilgrims who arrived in 1620 didn't found the nation. The nation was founded about 150 years later. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin all espoused tolerance ...
From Nation wasn't founded to be Christian nation - docs.newsbank.com/g/GooglePM/BL/lib00107 ...

1776 Jul 4, 1776 - On July 4, 1776, a republic established in faith in human ability for self- governance was created by secession from England. Soon its God-free constitution was written, appealing not to alleged revelation but to reason and faith in humanity. Not "a Christian ....
picasaweb.google.com/Francis.Mortyn ...

1787 1787 - The Treaty of Tripoli in 1787, signed by Thomas Jefferson, as well as other government officials specifically states that the US is not a Christian Nation, nor founded on Christian principles.
From A Debate I've Been Stuck In... | Facebook - Related web pages
Welcome to Facebook ...

1796 1796 - O'Bannon and the immortal words “To the shores of Tripoli&#8221, I know that Thomas Jefferson in his Treaty of Tripoli, the first treaty of the United States in 1796, he specifically states that we are not a Christian Nation.As has been pointed out, there is a difference between being a nation of Christians and a Christian Nation. And as a former US Marine having studied the history of the Barbary pirate wars, where US marines served ( Lt. O'Bannon and the immortal words “To the shores of Tripoli&#8221, I know that Thomas Jefferson in his Treaty of Tripoli, the first treaty of the United States in 1796, he specifically states that we are not a Christian Nation.
notimefortrivia.com/page/71/?s

1797 1797 - People need to stop claiming the Founding Fathers as a block for one side of the other. They were a diverse lot. They included the religious and the non-religious. They knew that America was a diverse nation and that creating a single religious point of view was neither possible nor desirable.
Slate -> The Fray -> Fighting Words

1892 1892 - In 1892, the US Supreme Court took half of its unanimous opinion to sketch out the Christian roots of America. It's an entire history course, one most Americans alive today never received in government-run schools. The evidence that America is a Christian ...In 1892, the US Supreme Court took half of its unanimous opinion to sketch out the Christian roots of America. It's an entire history course, one most Americans alive today never received in government-run schools. The evidence that America is a Christian nation is overwhelming. Why is there such a vocal minority attempting to refute the claim of the Supreme Court? What do those who say "America is not a Christian nation" hope to gain? Do they want America to be more ...
From America, a Christian Nation - Christ, the Root of Our Liberties -- KEVIN … - Related web pages
kevincraig.us/christ.htm

1992 Nov 24, 1992 - Kirk Fordice has apologized for his insistence that America is a Christian nation. But the episode highlights once again how intolerance and the refusal to accept diversity are divisive forces that must be left behind. This nation's history is rooted in religious and cultural freedom. ...
From St. Louis Post-Dispatch: AMERICA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION - Related web pages
docs.newsbank.com/g/GooglePM/SL/lib00171 ...

2003 May 2, 2003 - Christian churches in America are pretty fun places, though, places to entertain us and increase our self esteem. ... How can this happen in a "Christian" nation ? It's maybe because the nation isn't really Christian and hasn'ta clue as to what it means to be Christian. ...
From We're not a Christian country. (Viewpoint). - Related web pages
goliath.ecnext.com/premium/0199/0199-2917796.html

2007 Oct 8, 2007 - By Jon Meacham. Senator John McCain was not on the campus of Jerry Falwell's Liberty University last year for very long - McCain, who once referred to Falwell and Pat Robertson as "agents of intolerance," was there to receive an honorary degree - but he seems to have picked up some ...
From The US is not a 'Christian nation' - The New York Times - Related web pages
www.nytimes.com/2007/10/08/opinion/08iht ...

2009 Apr 14, 2009 - Is America a Christian nation, as many conservatives claim it is? One American doesn't think so. In his press conference on April 6 in Turkey, President Obama explained: "One of the great strengths of the United States is … we have a very large Christian population -- we do not ...
From America is not a Christian nation - Salon.com - Related web pages
www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2009/04/14 ...

Google

 

[Samson]

And once again, nobody claimed the US was a theocracy, either. It is founded on Christian tenets. There's a difference.

You have not proven your claim. Christ is not mentioned in any of our Governments documents.

But Christ doesn't have to be mentioned in any government documents for the government to reflect "Christian Tenets" (which I suppose would be Christ's Teachings as described in the Gospels).

I'm still at a loss to equate any of these teachings with our law, or enforcement, or whatever?

 

[AllieBaba]

And once again, nobody claimed the US was a theocracy, either. It is founded on Christian tenets. There's a difference.

You have not proven your claim. Christ is not mentioned in any of our Governments documents. Wishing so don't make it so.

I've already made and supported my claim, which is that the US was founded on Christian tenets.

You constantly attempting to change the dialogue into something else in no way proves that the US isn't a Christian nation. First you said the US was modeled after Rome. Rome was a theocracy.

Then it was said the Roman Republic ended before Christ (wtf?). I don't know where that came from, or even what it pertains to.

Then you said I claimed the US was modeled after Rome. I didn't.

The claim was made that the US wasn't a Christian nation. In the words of our founders and our founding documents, it was.

There's no more argument, it's a done deal. There are facts, and then there is fantasy, and you're operating in fantasy right now.

 

[Sky Dancer]

And once again, nobody claimed the US was a theocracy, either. It is founded on Christian tenets. There's a difference.

You have not proven your claim. Christ is not mentioned in any of our Governments documents.

But Christ doesn't have to be mentioned in any government documents for the government to reflect "Christian Tenets" (which I suppose would be Christ's Teachings as described in the Gospels).

I'm still at a loss to equate any of these teachings with our law, or enforcement, or whatever?

It's mythology. There is no evidence that the government of the US was founded on Christian tenets.

 

[AllieBaba]

Except of course the words of the founders and the Declaration of Independence, which is the first document which presents the US to the world.

 

[Samson]

Except of course the words of the founders and the Declaration of Independence, which is the first document which presents the US to the world.

But...where does the DoI sound like the Gospels?

"All men are created equal?" Where does Christ say this?