The Truth about Mormons

[eots]

Mormons are the retarded brother of the religious world, they smile a lot and are generally pretty harmless but don't offer up a whole lot to the knowledge of the world.

the world could benifit from more smiling and harmlessness..for what ever reason

 

[Skeptik]

Mormons are the retarded brother of the religious world, they smile a lot and are generally pretty harmless but don't offer up a whole lot to the knowledge of the world.

Much as your post, no doubt typed while smiling, is pretty harmless but adds nothing to the knowledge being shared on this thread.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Mormons are the retarded brother of the religious world, they smile a lot and are generally pretty harmless but don't offer up a whole lot to the knowledge of the world.

Wow.

I don't think I know of any religion that preaches the need for secular knowledge as well as spiritual knowledge to the extent that we do.


"A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge."
~Joseph Smith

 

[pare]

The idea of racism is bothersome. I think this needs clarification.

The way I understand it from the scriptures, God put up the race barrier for the purpose of segregating the righteous and the wicked.

2 Nephi 5: 21-22
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

2 Nephi 26: 33
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

According to the scriptures, God made the mark (i.e., skin color) on the various races, and so the mark is a good thing and it is for a good purpose - because of course God "doeth that which is good" only. If any person wants to contest this idea - let that person go defy God if that person wants to...

The scriptures clearly state that the "skin of blackness" was intended so that those who are wicked will not be enticing to the righteous. The idea behind the skin colors is mainly to separate the rigtheous and the wicked so that the rigtheous will not be altogether corrupted by the wickedness of the wicked.

The skin of blackness was also a protective mark in the case of Cain. It is also apparently intended to help inspire those who have the mark to humble themselves before the Lord and repent - when people are born with a curse, either they approach the Lord in humility asking what they've done to deserve their lot in life, or they defy the Lord and prove their wickedness before the Lord.

Now, clearly, all people - black and white, etc. - are welcome to partake of the goodness of the Lord and are welcome to be together if they fulfill the rigtheousness that the Lord requires.

The wicked who are marked with the loathsome color become lovely if they repent of their iniquities (the black is then become beautiful), whereupon they are allowed their place with the righteous.

The skin colors are intended not as a license for acts of prejudice [i.e., the judgement and condemnation before any actual proof, which is wrong]. The skin colors are intended so that the righteous may be privileged to be cautious and so that the wicked may be reminded to mend their ways.

The skin colors are intended as a blessing to everyone so that everyone may have the privilege to return to God if they choose to. Thus, "all are alike unto God" because everyone gets the opportunity with enough coaxing from God (for instance, the skin colors) so that everyone may come to terms with what they have done in the past and acknowledge their state before God.

I do not believe that God placed people into their racial groups unjustly; each of us are where we are because in God's judgment our particular lot in life is the fairest and the best for us, so that we may return to him if we do well - indeed he said to Cain, "if thou doest well shalt thou not be accepted?"


There is really nothing wrong with being "racist" (or "discriminating") for as long as it is not used as a license for acts of prejudice. Acts of prejudice are another matter - that is, prejudicial acts are always wrong.

The reality is that we have the various races and therefore we can't help but be discriminating on account of the racial groupings, especially because the racial groupings present varying starting points for the just and fair (or equal) opportunity to advance in our state before God. Being unequally yoked is hard, although it is not altogether forbidden to be unequally yoked.

The Lord Jesus Christ himself was unequally yoked with us and bore our burdens. Yet, the Lord loves us so much that he condescended and suffered to be the sinless sacrifice so that he may claim us as his reward before God the Father - his Father who is also our Father.

The Lord Jesus Christ himself was rather discriminating. He said he was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel; and he essentially called the canaanite woman, who is of the cursed race, a "dog"; he discriminated but he did not prejudge and send her immediately away; he was simply cautious and waited a while; and when the canaanite woman proved herself worthy of the blessing she sought, he gave her that blessing.

St Matthew 15: 22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Thus, on the matter of the skin colors, the members of the Mormon Church are taught to be cautious or, put another way, to be "discriminating," in order to help ensure our return to God who is our Father - but the members of the Mormon Church are never taught to be prejudicial.


I recently needed a house help to do chores that multiplied on account of our new baby; and I received a recommended young woman who was pretty much aboriginal at a glance. She had dark skin, kinky hair; her clothes were filthy; she had a festering boil on one leg; she had lice in her unruly hair; worms in her, perhaps; and she was socially uncouth in her ways. But I couldn't send her away just like that.

So I told her that I am requiring her to be clean, to take at least two showers a day, to disinfect her festering leg, and to obey orders properly. She was not allowed to handle the baby and was segregated to a room in our house until we can be comfortable if she improved. I gave her a week in our home to prove herself worthy to be a house help.

Unfortunately, she was hard-headed and would not follow orders accordingly. She would do things in the unruly ways that she was accustomed to in her aboriginal home, and she remained in her filthy ways with her own self. So, I finally paid her her salary for the ten-days she was with us and sent her away.

Prejudicial - I surely wasn't.

But I must admit that I was cautious and racially discriminating, noting the race and culture she was from and belonged to and her appearance and manners when first presented to us. Yet I nonetheless gave her her opportunity with us and I risked my own home because of the principle involved. But, based on what I saw and experienced of her ways, the young woman was not up to it. I couldn't risk my home any longer to be corrupted in the many ways it could have been corrupted if I allowed that young aboriginal woman to continue with us for a longer time.

Now, I don't have to tell you the racial diversity of the friends I have...

I understand the stigma attached to the words "racist" and "racial discrimination". But the "cautiousness" of "racial discrimination" as I've somehow explained is not the "injustice" of "racial prejudice" that I've also explained somewhat. The former is technically rather a good thing, but the latter is clearly wrong. One can do racial discrimination and yet not be guilty of racial prejudice, as I think was exemplified in my own recent experience - but I think God will be the judge of that.
. . .

 

[Skeptik]

Having a light skin is the result of having less melanin. Melanin is the agent that colors skin, and protects us from the sun. Everyone except for albinos has some, and, of course, some have more than others.

A lack of melanin in the skin is the result of adaptation to the climate of Northern Europe, where there is little sun. A whiter skin results in more absorption of UV rays, and therefore more vitamin D. In warmer, more tropical climates, a darker skin was more of a survival trait, as it protected against too much sun.

In other words, the color of human skin is the result of natural selection based on the climates in which different people lived.

There is nothing inherently more desirable in having a lack of melanin in the skin, except for the natural tendency of humans to like the looks of people who more or less look the same as they do. Being "delighsome" is in the eye of the beholder.

Given where Jesus was born and lived, it is quite likely that he had quite a lot of melanin in his skin, also, and was therefore not "white and delightsome", but more likely quite dark. If he had looked like a Swede, he would have stood out as being quite different from his fellows.

God did not "curse" anyone with a dark skin. That is ridiculous.

 

[pare]

Having a light skin is the result of having less melanin. . .

. . . a darker skin was more of a survival trait, as it protected against too much sun.

In other words, the color of human skin is the result of natural selection based on the climates in which different people lived. . .

God did not "curse" anyone with a dark skin. That is ridiculous.

150 years since the publication of his theory and 200 years since Darwin's birth against 6000 years of the doctrine divinely revealed to man, I think the votes are heavy against the Darwinian idea. That really is ridiculous!

I once asked an atheist if he believed in "justice" and if he did then what about the billions who were inflicted the wrongs and died without justice. His idea was that when people died that's the end of it. This life is all there is to it. In other words, he was simply saying there is no such thing as "justice".

I think it is difficult to trust a person who does not believe in justice. You simply can't know what he might do if justice is not in his considerations.

 

[Skeptik]

Having a light skin is the result of having less melanin. . .

. . . a darker skin was more of a survival trait, as it protected against too much sun.

In other words, the color of human skin is the result of natural selection based on the climates in which different people lived. . .

God did not "curse" anyone with a dark skin. That is ridiculous.

150 years since the publication of his theory and 200 years since Darwin's birth against 6000 years of the doctrine divinely revealed to man, I think the votes are heavy against the Darwinian idea. That really is ridiculous!

I once asked an atheist if he believed in "justice" and if he did then what about the billions who were inflicted the wrongs and died without justice. His idea was that when people died that's the end of it. This life is all there is to it. In other words, he was simply saying there is no such thing as "justice".

I think it is difficult to trust a person who does not believe in justice. You simply can't know what he might do if justice is not in his considerations.

Modern science is not antithetical to the existence of god. There is no conflict between evolution and religion, except where the adherents to religion are asked to believe the impossible, such as the so called "young Earth" notion. If there are 6,000 year old writings that say that god revealed that a dark skin is a curse, then we should take those writings for what they are: ancient writings from a time before modern science and enlightenment, when only an elite few could read and write and people believed that diseases were caused by evil spirits and that the Earth was the center of creation.

 

[Avatar4321]

Modern science is not antithetical to the existence of god. There is no conflict between evolution and religion, except where the adherents to religion are asked to believe the impossible, such as the so called "young Earth" notion. If there are 6,000 year old writings that say that god revealed that a dark skin is a curse, then we should take those writings for what they are: ancient writings from a time before modern science and enlightenment, when only an elite few could read and write and people believed that diseases were caused by evil spirits and that the Earth was the center of creation.

I completely concur that modern science is not antithetical to the existance of God. Thats one of the things I like about Mormonism, we have always been and will continue to be open to science.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Having a light skin is the result of having less melanin. Melanin is the agent that colors skin, and protects us from the sun. Everyone except for albinos has some, and, of course, some have more than others.

A lack of melanin in the skin is the result of adaptation to the climate of Northern Europe, where there is little sun. A whiter skin results in more absorption of UV rays, and therefore more vitamin D. In warmer, more tropical climates, a darker skin was more of a survival trait, as it protected against too much sun.

This "natural selection" I preach of is chosen by God. It is clear to me that he wants all of his children to be best adapted to their climates.

In other words, the color of human skin is the result of natural selection based on the climates in which different people lived.

There is nothing inherently more desirable in having a lack of melanin in the skin, except for the natural tendency of humans to like the looks of people who more or less look the same as they do. Being "delighsome" is in the eye of the beholder.

Exactly right. The curse was placed on the Lamanites, militant enemies of the Nephites, in order to identify the enemy and to be un-"enticing" to the Nephites in their times. Those people specifically. Because before that, they all came from the same family. God ordained that separation and often works in curious ways as these. The curse was removed a long time ago, before 400AD. I repeat, the curse no longer exists today. A concept not realized by unstudious mormons and otherwise.

Given where Jesus was born and lived, it is quite likely that he had quite a lot of melanin in his skin, also, and was therefore not "white and delightsome", but more likely quite dark. If he had looked like a Swede, he would have stood out as being quite different from his fellows.

Jews have various differing shades of skin in those days. Their features are known. He was bearded, probably olive skinned, the shading we are not certain of. His hair was likely wavy or curly. Nowhere was it claimed that he looked like a Northern European. The only people to actually note the color of his skin is the many differing tribes throughout the north and south american continent who describe the many different visits of Christ to the many different tribes during the first century and thereafter leading up to Cortez and Columbus. He had many different names, "The Plumed Serpent", Kate-Zahl, Wakea, Waikano,(The Lord of Wind and Water), Quetzal-Coatl, Mohnt-Azoma, etc. All of these oral legends depict him as a "Pale God", who healed the sick, raised the dead, taught the religion of "My Father", Chose 12 disciples to lead the people when he left, taught baptism, sacred temple marriage, abolition of slavery, love one another, ending human sacrifice and many other teachings which "coincidentally" seem straight out of the Bible. He is described as "not short" and "taller than most", with reddish brown hair, grey-green eyes like the deep ocean, cross marks in his hands, always wearing a white robe with small black "t"shaped crosses embroidered all around the hemline of his robe, always wearing golden sandals. He is always described as "white".

This was not a concoction of Joseph Smith or any Mormon. These are the true legends as told in secret among nearly all the Indian tribes, especially among the older, very wise leaders. Smith knew of none of these legends. The story of Jesus Visit among the Nephites appears to be just one more stop on his way to visit many other peoples existing before and after them in the Americas. The tales are chilling when you read them one by one. I can relate some to you if you like.

The bottom line is color doesn't save anyone. There are reasons for our color. Many reasons. But we shouldn't define ourselves by color. As truly the "Prophet" Kate-Zahl once said to the people of Ancient Tula near present day Teotihuacan : One good deed is worth far more than the most precious jewels or emeralds of any kind. Do you think you masters can be borne past the gates of Heaven on the backs of your servants? Nay it is not so. For my Father has many dwellings in heaven. To enter therein, you must follow my teachings.

He then blessed the people and healed the hunchbacks, dwarfs and others who were maimed or withered. When he finally left his beloved city of ancient Tula, people wept bitterly as he warned them to prepare for his return.

God did not "curse" anyone with a dark skin. That is ridiculous.

I wouldn't say it's ridiculous, but it has happened only once in holy writ. That was to the Lamanites referred to in the Book of Mormon. No one else has ever been mentioned as having been cursed with a dark skin. Not even the seed of Cain.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Modern science is not antithetical to the existence of god

.
Well said. It is in support.

There is no conflict between evolution and religion, except where the adherents to religion are asked to believe the impossible, such as the so called "young Earth" notion.

The more we learn the more we learn how much we do NOT know. I don't think it's as cut and dry as people want it to be. Whatever method God used for placing us here in this earth is fine by me. As yet it is not proven in scientific circles the theory of evolution, even though it seems likely with animals. Where scientists keep scratching their heads is the inexplicable rapid development of intellect, discovery, and civilization around 6000 years ago.
My opinion is that God created the earth in 7 periods of time. How many millions of years did it take? I don't know and I don't care. What's important is that we are created in His image. I believe we were placed here after many species of animals had had their run and played their role in shaping the world for us to live in. I believe that was close to 6 or 7 thousand years ago. What I do know is that we all have a lot to learn about unrevealed history. I shake my head every time some scientist or religious zealot comes up with their boxed-in final take on the subject, as if they really know when they don't. At least you can't know such a thing secularly. It can be revealed in the spirit through meditation and prayer but that is the only way until concrete definite scientific proof comes out.

but then again, how trustworthy is the scientific world when it is always backtracking.

If there are 6,000 year old writings that say that god revealed that a dark skin is a curse, then we should take those writings for what they are: ancient writings from a time before modern science and enlightenment, when only an elite few could read and write and people believed that diseases were caused by evil spirits and that the Earth was the center of creation

There were many uneducated ancients. The popular and arrogant notion of today's people is that we are so much smarter than them. In the pearl of Great Price, Abraham shows a far more advanced notion of the cosmos than modern people thought possible.
The ancient Mayan, and Tollan calendar of the america's was 1000 years ahead of their European counterparts. In fact there is much knowledge in roadmaking in the ancient jungle systems that clearly surpasses our own road making skills in 2009. Their cement is flawless, 4 feet thick with no cracks even after thousands of years buried in the constant attacking jungle climate. Beneath these roads is a 9 foot layer of sandstone to create a far more stable and permanent foundation than any roads built today. It also proves that Romans were not the first to come up with concrete. That art is lost along with many others in craftsmanship and astrology.
We shouldn't be so hasty to judge the ignorance of the ancients. Rather we should focus on gaining all the knowledge we can from them. At least the fragments they left behind. Each generation and people has technology that can benefit the world. We shouldn't be so arrogant as to think we have it all.

 

[Skeptik]

Exactly right. The curse was placed on the Lamanites, militant enemies of the Nephites, in order to identify the enemy and to be un-"enticing" to the Nephites in their times. Those people specifically. Because before that, they all came from the same family. God ordained that separation and often works in curious ways as these. The curse was removed a long time ago, before 400AD. I repeat, the curse no longer exists today. A concept not realized by unstudious mormons and otherwise.

So, the dark skin curse didn't refer to the relative swarthiness of the natives vs the European newcomers? I'd always been led to believe that the so called curse was an explanation of why the light skinned people were supposed to be more "godly" than the native Americans.

What you say does make sense, even if there is no way to prove that some of the ancient Americans suddenly developed a dark skin. That would have to go in a category with other miracles, wouldn't it?

 

[Godboy]

Mormons are the retarded brother of the religious world, they smile a lot and are generally pretty harmless but don't offer up a whole lot to the knowledge of the world.

Wow.

I don't think I know of any religion that preaches the need for secular knowledge as well as spiritual knowledge to the extent that we do.


"A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge."
~Joseph Smith

What mormons spread is NOT knowledge. The statement by biggy smallz is still true and valid.

 

[Truthspeaker]

So, the dark skin curse didn't refer to the relative swarthiness of the natives vs the European newcomers? I'd always been led to believe that the so called curse was an explanation of why the light skinned people were supposed to be more "godly" than the native Americans

.

No that was not the case. Many people fail to immerse themselves in what the book ACTUALLY says. It was referring to the Lamanites. In the book of 4th Nephi we read that there "were no more manner of =ites among them. And the curse was lifted from all who were under it."

We never read of the curse reappearing. This curse has always been mistaken for the skin of the African race but it is not so. It was a specific unprecedented occurance of a skin color curse.

What you say does make sense, even if there is no way to prove that some of the ancient Americans suddenly developed a dark skin. That would have to go in a category with other miracles, wouldn't it?

Of course it would. But these people mingled and mingled and mingled with themselves and other cultures over a thousand years. that's why their skin color is fairly neutral in worldwide terms. Most of the darkness of their skin I attribute to outside living in a hot climate. Look at the skin color of the babies and you will see what they're really born with.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Mormons are the retarded brother of the religious world, they smile a lot and are generally pretty harmless but don't offer up a whole lot to the knowledge of the world.

Wow.

I don't think I know of any religion that preaches the need for secular knowledge as well as spiritual knowledge to the extent that we do.


"A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge."
~Joseph Smith

What mormons spread is NOT knowledge. The statement by biggy smallz is still true and valid.

whatever

 

[Avatar4321]

What mormons spread is NOT knowledge. The statement by biggy smallz is still true and valid.

Do you ever tire of just coming up with new screen names?

 

[Truthspeaker]

I just finished reading this jawdropping book called "He walked the Americas." by L. Taylor Hansen. This person was born in 1889 and died in 1979. She spent nearly 30 years on a personal quest to gather the unwritten legends of the past for as many native tribes as would speak to her. That's a long time. She had never heard of the Book of Mormon and therefore was certainly not a member of our church. Her interviews revealed chilling stories. Here are some quotes of some of the natives who contributed to the stories:

"We are the Ancients, and our skin is red: with us, the Sacred Color. These are our legends told about the campfires on winter's evenings. When you string them together, remember our great pride. Now we are looking down and our feathers are drooping. Tell the legends so that our young men will realize that the ancestor threads run in many directions. Through the tribes we have captured and with whom we have intermarried there is a red thread which runs back to the Red Land long sunken in the Destruction. There is a thread which runs far to the south where the mountain tops touch the sky and the Thunder Bird moves through the lightning’s. There is a golden thread which touches Tollan, The Mighty, and beautiful Tula, while through some of our mothers there is a white thread to the words of The Prophet. Tell my young men to listen."
--Asa Delugie, War Chief of the Mescallero Apaches.

"This is our book. May you write it in beauty as we have told it in beauty."--Zeahley Tso, Chief of the Navajo.

`"There is evidence that some of our ancestors may have come from the ancient trading empire of Chan Chan centuries before the rise of the Incan Power in Peru. Tell my people to learn of this great power which once ruled eyes. Tell them to look up and learn."

--So-Sah-kuku, Chief Snake Priest of Oraibi.


"This is our book-these legends of Ancient times. They are of the blood which courses through our veins. We of the Seven Tribes of the Black Tortoise once had a Dream of Empire. Yet farther back through the cycles of Time we knew the Great Wakon-Tankah, but we forgot His words. These legends should help us to look up and remember."

--Shooting Star, of the Dakota Sioux.


After reading this book, a completely non-mormon Christian preacher remarked:
“In a world of jaded emotions and broken dreams this book can reopen the doorways to your heart. Taylor Hansen has created a classic work, one that honors the Christ in all of us.”

Rev. Dr. Robert Ghost Wolf

 

[pare]

I thought perhaps I should add a bit more with scriptural support since the copy-and-paste provides some ease.

Moses 5: 4-7. 16-25
4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.
5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
. . .
16 And Adam and Eve, his wife, ceased not to call upon God. And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said: I have gotten a man from the Lord; wherefore he may not reject his words. But behold, Cain hearkened not, saying: Who is the Lord that I should know him?
17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.
19 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
20 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering;
21 But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect. Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
22 And the Lord said unto Cain: Why art thou wroth? Why is thy countenance fallen?
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;
24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.
25 And it shall be said in time to come — That these abominations were had from Cain; for he rejected the greater counsel which was had from God; and this is a cursing which I will put upon thee, except thou repent.

Gen. 4: 13-15
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

We read from above about Cain's corruption of the priesthood ordinance symbolizing the Great Sacrifice. They were commanded to offer the firstlings of their flocks, which offering was a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. But Cain made his own variation of the ordinance - "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."

Cain could not be trusted regarding priesthood matters. "The Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering; But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect."

Cain disregarded the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. As a priest, who was called to perform the ordinance in which a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father was offered, Cain failed miserably. Cain disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood; and therefore the priesthood authority was withdrawn from Cain.

Cain was called Perdition. This was apparently the kind of spirit that he was before he was born. The scripture says "for thou wast also before the world."

Cain became the father of people who perpetuated the "abominations' that "were had from Cain". The people who were born in the lineage of Cain were born in the lineage of Cain because they were very much of the same spirit as Cain's before they were born into the world. Cain's lineage perpetuated the abominations and the curse was continued; they bore the mark of the curse and they were denied the priesthood authority because they cannot be trusted.

A similar disregard of the sacred things of the priesthood was perpetuated by Ham after the flood; and the mark of the curse which is the "blackness" was brought on Canaan, which again ordained a lineage into which rebellious spirits were born - because these spirits must have been rebellious like Cain before they came into the world.

Gen. 9: 18-27
18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Moses 7: 8
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

The land was actually cursed with so much melanin-producing heat and a blackness came upon the children of Canaan that they were particularly despised among all people.

As far as I know the mark of the curse and its meaning as pertains the descendants of Canaan was never lifted by any sacred pronouncement until the 1978 declaration of a revelation to Pres. Spencer W. Kimball of the Mormon Church.


The mark of the curse was also placed on the Lamanites who disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood. The Lamanites sought to destroy those who honored the priesthood.

Alma 3: 7 (7-16)
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

And then the mark of the curse was erased when everyone became very righteous after the visit of the resurrected Christ.

4 Nephi 1: 17, 20
17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

However, after a while, again there came a great divide among the people; the people grouped themselves into Nephites and Lamanites and they had terrible wars that practically annihilated the Nephites and only "Lamanites" were left alive. These again became a dark, filthy and loathsome people.

Mormon 5: 15
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

But there was no more mention of any curse put upon them as pertaining to the priesthood restrictions - except that there is mention that they became idolatrous unbelievers, which means they had no worthy priesthood holders.


The latter-day leaders actually acknowledged the scriptural stipulations regarding the curse associated with the skin of blackness, especially as eprtains the descendants of Canaan (which I think was understood to be the African people). The blacks were 'generally' not ordained the priesthood authority and could not therefore administer the priesthood ordinances.

Like the Canaanite woman who implored the Lord, they were allowed certain blessings - like that in the ordinances for the forgiveness of sins. But they were not allowed the ordinances for exaltation since these entailed that they be entrusted the priesthood authority to administer the priesthood ordinances. This is of course until the 1978 declaration.

I was already a convert to the Mormon Church many years before the 1978 declaration regarding the priesthood for the black people. It was not a surprise or an extraordinarily difficult issue for us. We were satisfied by the scriptural explanations and personal spiritual confirmations regarding the 1978 declaration.

The Lord must have deemed it prudent for the Church to not have black priesthood holders during the time when blacks were generally slaves and when the black culture was pretty much un-enticing. This ended of course when the black people gained enough social respectability and also the honor before the Lord (circa 1978).

In sum, I think the terms "racist/racism", "racial discrimination" and "racial prejudice" should be understood and used correctly.

. . .

As for the science thing, I actually like the science ideas mixed with the religion (e.g., among my faves is "kinematic relativity" as reconciled with LDS ideas ) -

The religion of the Latter-day Saints is not hostile to any truth, nor to scientific search for truth. "That which is demonstrated, we accept with joy," said the First Presidency in their Christmas greeting to the Saints, "but vain philosophy, human theory and mere speculations of men we do not accept, nor do we adopt anything contrary to divine revelation or to good common sense, but everything that tends to right conduct, that harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity, finds favor with us, no matter where it may be found." ["Words in Season from the First Presidency," Deseret Evening News, 17 Dec. 1910, 3.]

I do not see how the idea of the evolution of man from the apes "tends to right conduct,.. harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity."
. . .

 

[JakeStarkey]

Good heavens, TruthSpeaker is trying to interpret the mythology of the tribes literally. No wonder he is so lost in his own thread.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Good heavens, TruthSpeaker is trying to interpret the mythology of the tribes literally. No wonder he is so lost in his own thread.

I'm not interpreting anything. From here on out I am going to relay each of these native american legends exactly. At least one per day. You can take them for what they are worth. These legends told by the many tribes are claimed to have literally happened, not metaphorically happened. In a little while I am going to relate the entire story of the God Wakea as told by ALL Polynesian tribes. I'll do it on my lunchbreak.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I thought perhaps I should add a bit more with scriptural support since the copy-and-paste provides some ease.

Moses 5: 4-7. 16-25
4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.
5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
. . .
16 And Adam and Eve, his wife, ceased not to call upon God. And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said: I have gotten a man from the Lord; wherefore he may not reject his words. But behold, Cain hearkened not, saying: Who is the Lord that I should know him?
17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.
19 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
20 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering;
21 But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect. Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
22 And the Lord said unto Cain: Why art thou wroth? Why is thy countenance fallen?
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;
24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.
25 And it shall be said in time to come — That these abominations were had from Cain; for he rejected the greater counsel which was had from God; and this is a cursing which I will put upon thee, except thou repent.

Gen. 4: 13-15
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

We read from above about Cain's corruption of the priesthood ordinance symbolizing the Great Sacrifice. They were commanded to offer the firstlings of their flocks, which offering was a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. But Cain made his own variation of the ordinance - "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."

Cain could not be trusted regarding priesthood matters. "The Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering; But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect."

Cain disregarded the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. As a priest, who was called to perform the ordinance in which a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father was offered, Cain failed miserably. Cain disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood; and therefore the priesthood authority was withdrawn from Cain.

Cain was called Perdition. This was apparently the kind of spirit that he was before he was born. The scripture says "for thou wast also before the world."

Cain became the father of people who perpetuated the "abominations' that "were had from Cain". The people who were born in the lineage of Cain were born in the lineage of Cain because they were very much of the same spirit as Cain's before they were born into the world. Cain's lineage perpetuated the abominations and the curse was continued; they bore the mark of the curse and they were denied the priesthood authority because they cannot be trusted.

A similar disregard of the sacred things of the priesthood was perpetuated by Ham after the flood; and the mark of the curse which is the "blackness" was brought on Canaan, which again ordained a lineage into which rebellious spirits were born - because these spirits must have been rebellious like Cain before they came into the world.

Gen. 9: 18-27
18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Moses 7: 8
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

The land was actually cursed with so much melanin-producing heat and a blackness came upon the children of Canaan that they were particularly despised among all people.

As far as I know the mark of the curse and its meaning as pertains the descendants of Canaan was never lifted by any sacred pronouncement until the 1978 declaration of a revelation to Pres. Spencer W. Kimball of the Mormon Church.


The mark of the curse was also placed on the Lamanites who disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood. The Lamanites sought to destroy those who honored the priesthood.

Alma 3: 7 (7-16)
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

And then the mark of the curse was erased when everyone became very righteous after the visit of the resurrected Christ.

4 Nephi 1: 17, 20
17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

However, after a while, again there came a great divide among the people; the people grouped themselves into Nephites and Lamanites and they had terrible wars that practically annihilated the Nephites and only "Lamanites" were left alive. These again became a dark, filthy and loathsome people.

Mormon 5: 15
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

But there was no more mention of any curse put upon them as pertaining to the priesthood restrictions - except that there is mention that they became idolatrous unbelievers, which means they had no worthy priesthood holders.


The latter-day leaders actually acknowledged the scriptural stipulations regarding the curse associated with the skin of blackness, especially as eprtains the descendants of Canaan (which I think was understood to be the African people). The blacks were 'generally' not ordained the priesthood authority and could not therefore administer the priesthood ordinances.

Like the Canaanite woman who implored the Lord, they were allowed certain blessings - like that in the ordinances for the forgiveness of sins. But they were not allowed the ordinances for exaltation since these entailed that they be entrusted the priesthood authority to administer the priesthood ordinances. This is of course until the 1978 declaration.

I was already a convert to the Mormon Church many years before the 1978 declaration regarding the priesthood for the black people. It was not a surprise or an extraordinarily difficult issue for us. We were satisfied by the scriptural explanations and personal spiritual confirmations regarding the 1978 declaration.

The Lord must have deemed it prudent for the Church to not have black priesthood holders during the time when blacks were generally slaves and when the black culture was pretty much un-enticing. This ended of course when the black people gained enough social respectability and also the honor before the Lord (circa 1978).

In sum, I think the terms "racist/racism", "racial discrimination" and "racial prejudice" should be understood and used correctly.

. . .

As for the science thing, I actually like the science ideas mixed with the religion (e.g., among my faves is "kinematic relativity" as reconciled with LDS ideas ) -

The religion of the Latter-day Saints is not hostile to any truth, nor to scientific search for truth. "That which is demonstrated, we accept with joy," said the First Presidency in their Christmas greeting to the Saints, "but vain philosophy, human theory and mere speculations of men we do not accept, nor do we adopt anything contrary to divine revelation or to good common sense, but everything that tends to right conduct, that harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity, finds favor with us, no matter where it may be found." ["Words in Season from the First Presidency," Deseret Evening News, 17 Dec. 1910, 3.]

I do not see how the idea of the evolution of man from the apes "tends to right conduct,.. harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity."
. . .

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you Pare. We need to be very careful that we don't project meanings from the scriptures that aren't there. I think we need to read the scriptures as literally as possible in most cases.
The scriptures clearly state the land of Canaan was cursed with much heat. It also clearly states the Lamanites of Book of Mormon times were cursed with a skin of blackness. It also clearly states this curse was removed before the Book ended.
The scriptures clearly state that the seed of Cain were cursed "as to the priesthood", but only "marked" with dark skin. This mark was clearly for one purpose. To distinguish one as a descendant of Ham/Cain. The other is clear that it was a blessing of adaptation to a climate cursed with heat in which they would be confined for the most part of several thousand years.

My biggest disagreement with you is this. You know better that all people who have been given a body in this life have done so by achieving a great honor in the pre-mortal realm; that of keeping their "first estate", which is clear proof they chose the plan of Jesus and not Lucifer. So you must abandon the concept of Cain's wickedness prior to his birth. He chose the Lord's plan on that side but did not keep his "second estate" which is this life and chose to join Satan the second time around. Speculation on the reason why people are born into certain races is worthless. We all chose Jesus prior to our birth so none of the rest matters. We are all born into different circumstances for reasons known to God only. But the reason for our birth is clear: To show that we can overcome the difficulties with which we will be faced. We will all experience similar levels of challenges. They'll just be in different aspects of life. Blacks face different challenges than whites and vice versa. But we'll all have to choose obedience to God's commands in the face of great pressure to do otherwise.
That is the official doctrine of the Church. All else is speculation if positive at all.