The torture of Iraq men!

[janeeng]

Link

Somebody posted this on Yahoo, I didn't get to see the news to see this tape!!!!!

 

[Aquarian]

aaaagghghhh I looked at fox news!! my eyes...

but seriously, I guess they need to show this kind of stuff for some people. I mean, I know there are horrible things going on in the world at this very moment, I don't need to see pictures of it... but then again I do make myself look at some of these photo's on occaision to drive the reality back home so...

btw, great new avatar Janeeng

 

[lilcountriegal]

Excellent Excellent link janeen. Thanks! I'm actually speechless on this.

It reminds us that Saddam's regime took sadistic pleasure in documenting the horrors it perpetrated on the Iraqi people," Malinowski said. "In fact, they wanted people to know this, because the purpose of this treatment was to terrorize the population so no one would even think of opposing Saddam."

I'd like to see someone try and defend this... links can be argued "reputable" and not.... video evidence is something completely different.

I hope they declassify these tapes. I hope they make them available to the general public. I hope they play this tape on the JumboTron in NYC (thats a little extreme I guess )

It all leads me back to a country song I once heard (I cant remember the title or the singer... I'm sure someone will) made post 9/11. The song says something along the lines of the US wanting to prohibit videos of the planes actually hitting the towers to help Americans cope. The song goes on to state (and this is how I feel) that those tapes should be played on a daily basis. People need to remember. Remember their emotions, how they first felt... dont lose that anger and need for revenge.
Thats what happened to some of these anti-war demonstrators... they have become desensitized.

Make those tapes public. Then people will realize just what we have done for the people of that country.

thanks again for the link janeen

(sorry for venting... those tapes are pretty graphic)

 

[Aquarian]

video evidence is something completely different.

Not relating to this case in particular, but video (audio, handwriting, dna) all carry a burden of proof. All forms of evidence have been used in a doctored form at some point in time so they don't in and of themselves do away with the need for verification. That's probably just a remnant from the time I spent in Missouri, the Show Me state.

 

[janeeng]

NP, lilcountriegal, I have to agree with you 100% plus on this - this is why I posted this - At Yahoo, the guy that posted this link, his headlines were something in reference to, the tape that the LIBS will hide!!! I think too some tapes can be doctored, but c'mon, your really going to say this was? or the Hussein wasn't capable of this? you would be crazy to say so, unless of course, your a LIB who just can't face the FACTS! This is what the Iraq War was about, getting rid of the scum that perform such acts on human life. But, it will never be in the eyes of the Democrats! they will INSIST this is a FAKE tape, and still argue the OIL line.

BTW - Aquarian, thanks, I found that Avatar and kinda grew on me!

 

[Amras]

I'm actually speechless on this.

Same here

I don't believe it's a fake. People that carry out such acts are sadistic enough to keep it on tape. Even if it were a fake, it would give you a good impression how ppl were tortured under Saddam.

 

[Amras]

This is what the Iraq War was about, getting rid of the scum that perform such acts on human life.

Oh really?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Amras
Oh really?

Let me add to the prior post.

This is what the Iraq War was about, getting rid of the scum that perform such acts on human life.

Whether it be torturing and oppressing your own citizens, or acquiring/developing WMD for use in terror acts, they are all acts on human life that are unacceptable.

 

[Amras]

Whether it be torturing and oppressing your own citizens, or acquiring/developing WMD for use in terror acts, they are all acts on human life that are unacceptable.

Fair enough, I certainly didn't shed a tear for that dictator. I know that the US is really trying to improve the situation in the middle East.
A lot of governments have criticized Americas "warmongering" and they were thankful for Russias support in this case. Who was talking then about the atrocities in Chechnya and the recent setbacks of the russian democracy as a whole. There are plenty of authoritarian and totalitarian regimes that spit on on the rights of their populations and make splendid business with western countries.

Governments tend to overlook human rights violations as long as there is no strategic goal to accomplish.

I don't doubt that this is a good reason for the american people to justify the war. But even democratic governments are not so altruistic. Do you know how many governments condemned the Halabja mass murder in 1988? 0, well Saddam was still our buddy as long as he kept those fanatics in Teheran busy.

That's how I look at the world and I'm getting way off topic again. Sorry

 

[dijetlo]

>>Whether it be torturing and oppressing your own citizens, or acquiring/developing WMD for use in terror acts, they are all acts on human life that are unacceptable.<<

From Amnesty International, Spring 2001
>> research on 195 countries and territories from 1997 to mid-2000, Amnesty International found that torture and ill-treatment by state officials still occurred in more than 150 countries. In more than 70, they were widespread or persistent. In more than 80 countries, people reportedly died as a result. Torture of those in custody through rape and sexual abuse occurred in more than 50 countries. <<

I hope we packed a lunch...

 

[lilcountriegal]

Just another quick post on the tapes....

After I got Janeen's link, I surfed the internet for stories related. In one of the many I read (I could find it again if I had to) had a note that said the person that gave these tapes also has approximately 13 others... some of which has Saddam himself onlooking. I think there will be more tapes coming out of the woodwork soon....

 

[Aquarian]

Just to clarify, I too believe those tapes are real, was just making a point about evidence in general. We all agree, Saddam and his cohorts were very bad men. But like Amras and dijetlo I'm not convinced they are the reason we went to war.

 

[Bry]

Of course, everyone is going to think that the torture conducted by Saddam and his regime was horrible, and with these videos, will find one more reason to breath a sigh of relief that Saddam is no longer in power. But so much surprise and self-righteousness? Not only, as Dijetlo pointed out, is torture very widely practiced in the world, it is practiced by the United States. And if our methods are more refined so as to leave a mark more psychological than physical (and I'm not convinced that this is the case...) what exactly is the ethical difference?

Furthermore, these tapes cannot be seen as further justification for a war that took place long before the tapes were discovered.

Lastly, I am reminded by some of the posts I see in this thread of a concert I went to shortly after 9/11. At the concert, the band held a minute of silence for the innocent victims of 9/11. This minute of silence was followed by five minutes of silence for the tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent victims that would come from America's hurt pride and self-righteousness. If, as lilcountriegal and Janeeng have here suggested, the US should continue to be guided by their need to unleash their anger and need for revenge, the "war on terrorism" will all the more surely be a lost cause.

(BTW, I found this interesting linked advertisement on the same page as the article referenced in this thread. http://as-seen.bizhosting.com/iraqi_55_most_wanted_deck_of_cards.html

"These are sure to be collectibles & great for:

Father's Day
Gag Gift
Birthdays
Poker Parties
Just for Fun!"

hmmm.)

 

[Bry]

Here's a rundown on some of the post-9/11 acts of torture commited by the US.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511282003?open&of=ENG-USA

 

[jimnyc]

No torture is acceptable, but there's a huge difference here. Your're talking a few isolated incidents versus a man who had possibly thousands of Iraqi citizens tortured.

Furthermore, these tapes cannot be seen as further justification for a war that took place long before the tapes were discovered.

These particular tapes might have been recently found but it comes as no surprise at all. The USA knew all too well of his torture tactics and they were well documented, so I think this does justify what was said in the past. When the regime was accused pre-war of oppression and torture of it's citizens, how can this not be further justification?

This minute of silence was followed by five minutes of silence for the tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent victims that would come from America's hurt pride and self-righteousness.

I like to think the reason people have died and continue to do so is because of Saddam's regime and the continued terrorizing by the Muslim fanatics and insurgents hiding in the shadows. Can you show us something documenting what you speak of, or did you just interpret this "5 minute of silence" the way you say? And where was this concert?

Father's Day - Showing Dad that the scum of the world is being hunted down will surely bring a smile to his face.
Gag Gift - Do these have Odai and Qusai's dead bodies?
Birthdays - Celebrate the day you were born by looking at dirtbags that will soon meet death!
Poker Parties - Group of guys w/ beer, smokes, chips & dead terrorists - ALWAYS funny!
Just for Fun! - Especially if you're one of the lucky soldiers to hunt down these cockroaches!

 

[Bry]

Hi, jim.

No torture is acceptable, but there's a huge difference here. Your're talking a few isolated incidents versus a man who had possibly thousands of Iraqi citizens tortured.

Of course there's a difference here, and I understand exactly what you mean, and as I said, I agree Sadam was a bad bad man. My argument has always been not that we should have ignored him but that we should have and should in the future act differently. Here, I only want to say we too have a problem, at least in my opinion. We are doing some very ugly things, and the treatment of terror suspects by the US is not isolated but systematic. In my opinion, we need to clean up our act if we want to take the moral high ground, and this government is being very very secretive about their modus operandi, which I find unacceptable in a Democracy. But of course I suspect you are right that there is a big difference of scale. (How could we know for sure if the gov. doesn't make the process more transparent?)

These particular tapes might have been recently found but it comes as no surprise at all. The USA knew all too well of his torture tactics and they were well documented, so I think this does justify what was said in the past. When the regime was accused pre-war of oppression and torture of it's citizens, how can this not be further justification?

I've said this before: evidence found after the fact cannot serve to justify a war, and this administration is having trouble convincing us that we should have gone to war. They did not build their main arguments around human rights, and if they had, they would find themselves obligated to invade many many other countries. Of course the tapes might serve as evidence in a war crimes court, but not as justification for war. We might FEEL more justified after seeing the tapes, but that would be something different.

I like to think the reason people have died and continue to do so is because of Saddam's regime and the continued terrorizing by the Muslim fanatics and insurgents hiding in the shadows. Can you show us something documenting what you speak of, or did you just interpret this "5 minute of silence" the way you say? And where was this concert?

I know you like to think that, and you know I like to think differently. What are you asking that i document? The concert? What difference does it make? The concert was here in Madrid, where I live, but what difference does that make? Sorry, I think I don't understand what you are saying here.

Father's Day - Showing Dad that the scum of the world is being hunted down will surely bring a smile to his face...

Funny. Thanks for sharing.

 

[jimnyc]

What are you asking that i document? The concert? What difference does it make? The concert was here in Madrid, where I live, but what difference does that make? Sorry, I think I don't understand what you are saying here.

Yes, the silence for "the tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent victims that would come from America's hurt pride and self-righteousness.". Not many people were accusing the USA of being self righteous shortly after 9/11. The only thing on the war front so shortly after 9/11 was Osama and Afghanistan, which the majority of the world was behind us on.

Sounds like a touching story, but just doesn't fit the scenario - Unless you are Anti-war and Anti-USA and it makes for a nice post. I'm having trouble swallowing that story, was just looking for a little proof.

If you don't think it makes a difference, that's ok, but then the whole thing sounds a little fishy. Such an event so close to 9/11 would most likely have made headlines. The only headlines/tributes/moments of silence I saw for weeks and weeks after 9/11 was giving full support and condolences to the USA. (and that was worldwide)

 

[Bry]

Hello again, jim.

Yes, the silence for "the tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent victims that would come from America's hurt pride and self-righteousness.". Not many people were accusing the USA of being self righteous shortly after 9/11. The only thing on the war front so shortly after 9/11 was Osama and Afghanistan, which the majority of the world was behind us on.

So, it sounds fishy, eh? It's true that the world's governments and the world extended their sincere condolences for the tragedy. But you would have to be pretty dimwitted not to have had an inkling of the US response to come even as you were watching the towers come down. It wasn't my first thought, but it might have been my fourth or fifth, once I established that what I was seeing on TV was real and not some made for TV movie. Also, the political climate in general is dramatically different outside the US. Many people view the US and their actions with suspicion. Many even view the US in some way as the enemy or the adversary, though I think the number of people here that didn't sincerely feel shocked and horrified by what had happened must have been very few: I talked to no one that took such an extreme reaction.

As for the concert itself, you'll just have to take my word for it regarding personal anecdotes, and I don't like very much the insinuation that I might be lying because I'm anti-war and it makes a nice post. It was a club affair, not a very well known band, and I certainly didn't save any news clippings that might have reported on the show. If it's that incredible to you, I'm sure I could come up with some opinion pieces from right after 9/11 expressing the very real fear we had of the American response to the tragedy (phrased delicately, of course, out of respect for the Americans that had just lost their lives.) And some of my friends back home were expressing similar reservations at the same time, so I'm surprised the idea seems so farfetched for you that you are willing to question the voracity of my story.

Sorry, but I can't do any better than that.

 

[jimnyc]

Bry,

It's not any type of "moment of silence" that I am having trouble swallowing, it's the reasoning that you give that sounds fishy. Did the band playing announce "America's hurt pride and self-righteousness"? Did the crowd chant this?

I'm sorry that you might get offended at my disbelief, but I would hope and expect you would call me on issues you didn't believe either.

When a band made a comment about one man while in London it made national headlines in the US for the next 2 months. When a band/audience makes comments about an entire nation and it's not documented, it doesn't carry much weight (in my opinion)

 

[jimnyc]

It was a club affair, not a very well known band

Are you saying this took place in a bar like atmosphere, or a "concert" as you put it originally? I small gathering for an unknown band is somewhat more believable, and is by no means a "concert". I guess it technically is, but everyone else in the world considers a concert to take place in a stadium or arena.

If the latter is the case, It will still be fairly meaningless to me. You can find bars across the street from one another in NYC that will hold totally different "agendas". Bar/club opinions usually don't mean much, and the patrons tend to have a bit of alcohol in them!

Let me make this clear, Bry, I am not calling you a liar. I just find the sentiment displayed so shortly after 9/11 a bit "off". Knowing it was more likely a small gathering makes it more credible. I can find a gathering supporting any cause you care to mention, especially if I have the liberty of finding these samples at places where alcohol is served.

No offense.