The tie that saved Rome. Do Western nations need a State Religion?

[GreatestIam]

We should just ban all religions with a Constitutional Amendment...since we are playing silly hypotheticals.

People need the fellowship and community churches do a lot of good even as what they preach of God are lies and often immoral. Ask any gay.

Regards
DL

 

[occupied]

State religion.

Another way for the state to indoctrinate, conform, and condition the masses.

Indeed.

But if done today, it would produce a moral religion as compared to the homophobic and misogynous garbage ones we now let indoctrinate, conform, and condition the masses.

Do you see the mainstream religions as moral?

Regards
DL

Religious morals always have escape hatches built in (thou shalt not kill except for war, the death penalty, infidels, people you don't like etc.). We need ethics based on universal rights rather than morals based on cultural bias.

 

[GreatestIam]

The Founding Fathers risked their lives and fortunes to create a document unique in the human race with the doctrine of government of and by the people. The FF thought that freedom from a state religion and government interference in religious worship was so important that they addressed it in the first Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

They never imagine that a belligerent religion like Islam would try to overthrow the government. They wanted to protect freedom of thought and that is contrary to what Islam wants to protect. I have a link above that speaks to how Islam is anti freedom of speech.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

State religion.

Another way for the state to indoctrinate, conform, and condition the masses.

Indeed.

But if done today, it would produce a moral religion as compared to the homophobic and misogynous garbage ones we now let indoctrinate, conform, and condition the masses.

Do you see the mainstream religions as moral?

Regards
DL

Religious morals always have escape hatches built in (thou shalt not kill except for war, the death penalty, infidels, people you don't like etc.). We need ethics based on universal rights rather than morals based on cultural bias.

I agree and you seem to know that God based religions are not the place to find those ethic based universal rights.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Nothing about the conversion to Christianity turned out well for Rome or the rest of western culture. Almost the entirety of Greco-Roman learning was suppressed and forgotten for a thousand years as western Europe endured the dark ages under the anti-science catholic church. Progress was rejected for a millennium of holy wars, inquisitions, superstition and stagnation.

It did all of that, no argument, but it also led to the Western ideology that we now embrace as the best that we have created to date.

If Islam were to take over, learning will again be suppressed and forgotten and their own Inquisitions and Jihads will be the order of that horrible day.

Regards
DL

Our western ideology is based in Rome but the best of it was the result of the reformation and the renaissance. That is where ideals of freedom of thought, humanitarianism, science and rationality became the cornerstone of our civilization.

I do not fear Islam taking over, it may take another hundred years but it will be rendered toothless or be destroyed like everything else that has challenged western civilization.

Going to a state religion will make Islam toothless today and our children and grandchildren will not have to suffer them for another 100 years.

Why would you want to pass the fight to them instead of stepping up yourself?

Regards
DL

 

[occupied]

The Founding Fathers risked their lives and fortunes to create a document unique in the human race with the doctrine of government of and by the people. The FF thought that freedom from a state religion and government interference in religious worship was so important that they addressed it in the first Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

They never imagine that a belligerent religion like Islam would try to overthrow the government. They wanted to protect freedom of thought and that is contrary to what Islam wants to protect. I have a link above that speaks to how Islam is anti freedom of speech.

Regards
DL

It is natural to fear militant Islam but do not ascribe them powers of cultural conquest they do not have. We like our liquor, porn and pork too much to ever let a bunch of assholes take it away. Militant Islam can believe and want all sorts of things but they are not going to get it.

 

[GreatestIam]

No....we need to end it....it's called liberalism....

I doubt we can end religions but do think it our duty to help them evolve to a better and more moral form.

Regards
DL

Then the next question becomes, can we survive the state religion of liberalism as it devolves.....

Yes.

Liberalism can conserve what is good of the past while seeking better moral laws for the future.

You forget, with your right and left political thinking, that a bird with one wing stronger than the other cannot fly very well. There has to be a balance.

Regards
DL

 

[occupied]

Nothing about the conversion to Christianity turned out well for Rome or the rest of western culture. Almost the entirety of Greco-Roman learning was suppressed and forgotten for a thousand years as western Europe endured the dark ages under the anti-science catholic church. Progress was rejected for a millennium of holy wars, inquisitions, superstition and stagnation.

It did all of that, no argument, but it also led to the Western ideology that we now embrace as the best that we have created to date.

If Islam were to take over, learning will again be suppressed and forgotten and their own Inquisitions and Jihads will be the order of that horrible day.

Regards
DL

Our western ideology is based in Rome but the best of it was the result of the reformation and the renaissance. That is where ideals of freedom of thought, humanitarianism, science and rationality became the cornerstone of our civilization.

I do not fear Islam taking over, it may take another hundred years but it will be rendered toothless or be destroyed like everything else that has challenged western civilization.

Going to a state religion will make Islam toothless today and our children and grandchildren will not have to suffer them for another 100 years.

Why would you want to pass the fight to them instead of stepping up yourself?

Regards
DL

Depends on what you mean by "fight". History has shown that ideas can only be fought by better ideas. Trying to fight ideas by force of arms only seems to make it stronger. Cultural conflicts are not won by the impatient or by violence, they are a long march that practically always involves generations of people dedicated to peaceful resolution rather than violent inflammation of generations long resentments.

 

[GreatestIam]

The Founding Fathers risked their lives and fortunes to create a document unique in the human race with the doctrine of government of and by the people. The FF thought that freedom from a state religion and government interference in religious worship was so important that they addressed it in the first Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

They never imagine that a belligerent religion like Islam would try to overthrow the government. They wanted to protect freedom of thought and that is contrary to what Islam wants to protect. I have a link above that speaks to how Islam is anti freedom of speech.

Regards
DL

It is natural to fear militant Islam but do not ascribe them powers of cultural conquest they do not have. We like our liquor, porn and pork too much to ever let a bunch of assholes take it away. Militant Islam can believe and want all sorts of things but they are not going to get it.

Tell that to the Christians that have been forced out of the Middle East.
Christianity and the cultures that practiced it have basically been eradicated from the region of the birthplace of Christianity.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Nothing about the conversion to Christianity turned out well for Rome or the rest of western culture. Almost the entirety of Greco-Roman learning was suppressed and forgotten for a thousand years as western Europe endured the dark ages under the anti-science catholic church. Progress was rejected for a millennium of holy wars, inquisitions, superstition and stagnation.

It did all of that, no argument, but it also led to the Western ideology that we now embrace as the best that we have created to date.

If Islam were to take over, learning will again be suppressed and forgotten and their own Inquisitions and Jihads will be the order of that horrible day.

Regards
DL

Our western ideology is based in Rome but the best of it was the result of the reformation and the renaissance. That is where ideals of freedom of thought, humanitarianism, science and rationality became the cornerstone of our civilization.

I do not fear Islam taking over, it may take another hundred years but it will be rendered toothless or be destroyed like everything else that has challenged western civilization.

Going to a state religion will make Islam toothless today and our children and grandchildren will not have to suffer them for another 100 years.

Why would you want to pass the fight to them instead of stepping up yourself?

Regards
DL

Depends on what you mean by "fight". History has shown that ideas can only be fought by better ideas. Trying to fight ideas by force of arms only seems to make it stronger. Cultural conflicts are not won by the impatient or by voilence, they are a long march that practically always involves generations of people dedicated to peaceful resolution rather than violent inflammation of generations long resentments.

The fighting I propose would be done with words and under the government umbrella that would be guiding the debates to see which religion had the best ideology for us and that would be compatible with the more moral secular laws that we presently have.

If we do not do such, then as history has shown, we will eventually have to fight in a more physical and lethal way. The possibility and reasons for Inquisitions and Jihads must be taken from religions.

Regards
DL

 

[occupied]

The Founding Fathers risked their lives and fortunes to create a document unique in the human race with the doctrine of government of and by the people. The FF thought that freedom from a state religion and government interference in religious worship was so important that they addressed it in the first Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

They never imagine that a belligerent religion like Islam would try to overthrow the government. They wanted to protect freedom of thought and that is contrary to what Islam wants to protect. I have a link above that speaks to how Islam is anti freedom of speech.

Regards
DL

It is natural to fear militant Islam but do not ascribe them powers of cultural conquest they do not have. We like our liquor, porn and pork too much to ever let a bunch of assholes take it away. Militant Islam can believe and want all sorts of things but they are not going to get it.

Tell that to the Christians that have been forced out of the Middle East.
Christianity and the cultures that practiced it have basically been eradicated from the region of the birthplace of Christianity.

Regards
DL

I know that and it sucks but that is an entirely different discussion about how America should project it's power abroad. It seems you think we should declare war on Islam, is that correct? If so how do you think we should go about fighting a billion people scattered around the world?

 

[Eloy]

Because Christianity has been a major cultural element of European countries up to the present although less so nowadays, it would be a radical political policy to ignore it. Given the amount of trouble and strife sectarianism has caused in Europe, it would be reasonable or modern European states to be secular such as French republicanism but as long as citizens belong to churches, such a policy would need to be strong, persistent, and official.

 

[occupied]

Nothing about the conversion to Christianity turned out well for Rome or the rest of western culture. Almost the entirety of Greco-Roman learning was suppressed and forgotten for a thousand years as western Europe endured the dark ages under the anti-science catholic church. Progress was rejected for a millennium of holy wars, inquisitions, superstition and stagnation.

It did all of that, no argument, but it also led to the Western ideology that we now embrace as the best that we have created to date.

If Islam were to take over, learning will again be suppressed and forgotten and their own Inquisitions and Jihads will be the order of that horrible day.

Regards
DL

Our western ideology is based in Rome but the best of it was the result of the reformation and the renaissance. That is where ideals of freedom of thought, humanitarianism, science and rationality became the cornerstone of our civilization.

I do not fear Islam taking over, it may take another hundred years but it will be rendered toothless or be destroyed like everything else that has challenged western civilization.

Going to a state religion will make Islam toothless today and our children and grandchildren will not have to suffer them for another 100 years.

Why would you want to pass the fight to them instead of stepping up yourself?

Regards
DL

Depends on what you mean by "fight". History has shown that ideas can only be fought by better ideas. Trying to fight ideas by force of arms only seems to make it stronger. Cultural conflicts are not won by the impatient or by voilence, they are a long march that practically always involves generations of people dedicated to peaceful resolution rather than violent inflammation of generations long resentments.

The fighting I propose would be done with words and under the government umbrella that would be guiding the debates to see which religion had the best ideology for us and that would be compatible with the more moral secular laws that we presently have.

If we do not do such, then as history has shown, we will eventually have to fight in a more physical and lethal way. The possibility and reasons for Inquisitions and Jihads must be taken from religions.

Regards
DL

We should respond to threats as they arise and leave theological discussions and motivations out of it. Neither religion has the answer to how differing religions should live in peace. Actually they do but few zealots give credence to commandments that we should try to get along.

 

[owebo]

No....we need to end it....it's called liberalism....

I doubt we can end religions but do think it our duty to help them evolve to a better and more moral form.

Regards
DL

Then the next question becomes, can we survive the state religion of liberalism as it devolves.....

Yes.

Liberalism can conserve what is good of the past while seeking better moral laws for the future.

You forget, with your right and left political thinking, that a bird with one wing stronger than the other cannot fly very well. There has to be a balance.

Regards
DL

Actually, there is nothing complicated with left and right thinking, such binary thinking gave us the strongest principle of all, right and wrong, which spans conventional religions and all civilizations....for example, looking at liberal and conservative, liberal gave us slavery, conservative ended slavery.....

A bird that is right with no wings will always be better that a bird that is wrong with both wings.....

 

[SwimExpert]

They did so many awesome things

Alot of cultures have done "awesome things." Once again, you are merely romanticizing. It does nothing to justify the romanticism.

and had technology that was lost in the dark ages

All technology is lost after it's become sufficiently obsolete. But I digress. What you are actually saying is to repeat the myth the decline of the "dark" ages. This belief that human society and culture regressed after the fall of Rome is perhaps one of the greatest examples of Roman romanticism. And it is one of the most false. The technology and the arts proliferated quite well thoughout the so called "dark" ages. Oil painting came to us from the "dark" ages. So did the heavy plow. The hourglass, the printing press, the mechanical clock, artesian wells, central heating--all from the "dark" ages.

As noted by some scholars:

The idea that manual work was “bad,” says Squatriti, spread with the result that an aristocratic Roman who had the time and resources to devote to the pursuit of technology would never have done such research because he considered it “way below his status.”

As Squatriti asks: Why invent a machine to do labor when you had all your defeated enemies to do it?

To be sure, one major driver for tech development in the Dark Ages was simply the dismantlement of the Roman Empire and the fact that there were no longer enormous amounts of slave labor.

Tech Lessons From The 'Dark Ages'

For nearly a thousand years in Europe Latin was the only widely distributed written language.

This statement is yet more romanticism. The legacy of the Latin "language" is itself rather interesting in terms of what the public believes it knows. The first thing to note is that "Latin" is actually a group of many languages. Often these are differentiated with labels such as classical Latin, church Latin, old Latin, vulgar Latin, late Latin. These all represent distinct languages (or at least dialects) which have nominally been identified as Latin due to romanticism of Rome. Most notable for your statement is that the "wide distribution" of Latin post Roman Empire was due to the use of church Latin; it had far more to do with the influence of Christian culture than Roman culture.

 

[SwimExpert]

Rome never fell. It evolved to what we might call the Western alliance.

Regards
DL

Well that's just a load of horseshit.

He is correct, the empire fell but Rome itself simply morphed into something else. The deep bureaucracy of the catholic church can trace it's lineage in an unbroken line all the way back to the bureaucracy of imperial Rome

Well that's a hilarious bit of grandiose dogmatic fancy.

 

[IsaacNewton]

The survival of Western civilization is not in danger.

Our European allies and U.N. members would disagree.



Regards
DL

No they don't. It's clear conservatives are easily scared into flailing their arms and thinking the sky is falling. The sky isn't falling and there is no mortal threat to Western Civilization. A handful of crazies isn't going to win anything. Germany had a population of 70 million, a 6 million man army, 25,000 of the best tanks on Earth, double the size of any other airforce with superior aircraft, unlimited financial assets, and an arms industry that could produce tens of thousands of war goods a year. Add in Japan.

Both were utterly defeated. YOU are terrified of 20,000 crazies with AK-47s. One thing is clear, YOU are terrified. The rest of the world isn't. Go view the video of how the French people came out into the street right after the attack in Paris.

Stop letting the losers of the world make you hide under your blanky. They can't win anything. All they can do is make people scared, like you.

 

[Onyx]

Do you see the mainstream religions as moral?

In some respects, but I find the notion of a theocratic state to be immoral and dangerous, even moreso than the state already happens to be.

 

[Kondor3]

...Take that Christian out of your words above and I am all in...

Nahhhhh... you'll just be on the outside, looking in, which is fine with the rest of us, who don't share that perspective.

 

[GreatestIam]

The Founding Fathers risked their lives and fortunes to create a document unique in the human race with the doctrine of government of and by the people. The FF thought that freedom from a state religion and government interference in religious worship was so important that they addressed it in the first Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

They never imagine that a belligerent religion like Islam would try to overthrow the government. They wanted to protect freedom of thought and that is contrary to what Islam wants to protect. I have a link above that speaks to how Islam is anti freedom of speech.

Regards
DL

It is natural to fear militant Islam but do not ascribe them powers of cultural conquest they do not have. We like our liquor, porn and pork too much to ever let a bunch of assholes take it away. Militant Islam can believe and want all sorts of things but they are not going to get it.

Tell that to the Christians that have been forced out of the Middle East.
Christianity and the cultures that practiced it have basically been eradicated from the region of the birthplace of Christianity.

Regards
DL

I know that and it sucks but that is an entirely different discussion about how America should project it's power abroad. It seems you think we should declare war on Islam, is that correct? If so how do you think we should go about fighting a billion people scattered around the world?

Not at all. Banning their immoral creed seems to be what other countries are doing and if their morality is as poor as I think it is, then they would not be the religion any state would choose.

Regards
DL