The Success of the Big Lie

[Samson]

Talk about a babbling idiot...

The claim is made by an anti-Coulter reviewer about one of thousands of statements my Ms. Coulter.

Since you and the other opponents were too inept to come up with legitimate criticism of some of my sources, I, as an intellectual exercise, provided several critiques myself. Not only could you not find such on your own, but you have misused both the source and mathematics is a less-than-interesting display of sophistry.


And your cowardly attempt to ignore a previous post, specifically including these:

5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.

6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.

7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

has not gone unnoticed.


The obvious reason is that, unable to counter these statement, any disapproval of Senator McCarthy must fall apart as baseless.

Baseless.


So, without any valid criticism of the Senator, and judging by the Eisenhower administration and numerous Democrat and liberal anti-Communists who followed him, credit must be given to this great American hero.

Your definition of Great American Hero:

A US Senator that didn't ruin anyone's life.

Well, I suppose if you cannot defend him, you may as well lower your standards.

Next up: Senator Edward Kennedy, a Great American Hero!!!

PoliticalChick, you leave us with only one question:

Whether to laugh or cry?

"...you leave us with only one question..."

Only three kinds of folks can use 'we' when referring to himself:
1. Royalty

2. Editors of newspapers

3. Someone with a tapeworm


Best wishes for an improvement in your health.

Well, I think YOU are a "Great American Hero!"

 

[geauxtohell]

Occam's Razor suggests selecting the simplest explanation.

No shit.

Of course, your lack of imagination limits the choices.

Occam's Razor would negate the need for much imagination.

Perhaps most folks are afraid to sustain criticism. Could that be you?

Not from you.

And, of course:
There is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong.
H. L. Mencken, Prejudices: Second Series, 1920

Contributes zilch to the thread.

"McCarthy was as he is portrayed in history..."
This is the crux.

No, it's the end point for those of us who don't need to re-write history.

My OP is aimed at having you question his portrayal.

No, your OP is aimed at beating everyone who doesn't agree with your (and Ann Coulter's) opinions about the head and neck with your typical lame, pseudo-intellectual, babble.

You choose not to...the ignorant often refuse an intellectual challenge.

There is no challenge. You are entitled to your opinion of McCarthy, it just doesn't square with history.

As in these:
5. No innocent individual had their life ruined by Senator McCarthy.

How in the hell can you say that? You've spoken to everyone McCarthy outed to see what the ramifications were? I suspect this all turns on your definition of "innocent".

As I posted earlier, Joseph Welch disagreed with your sentiments during the McCarthy Army hearings:

Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us. Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale and Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think that I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.

6. No innocent spent time in prison as a result of Senator McCarthy's work.

Did anyone spend time in prison as a result of McCarthy's work? If not, then that point is meaningless.

7. Blacklisting was not the work of Senator McCarthy.

Not directly. No one ever claimed McCarthy maintained "black listing" power. The power he had was to accuse the innocent and cause others to black list them.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

Again: Victims of Senator McCarthy are imaginary, and created to serve the interests of the left.

Victims of McCarthyism

So, if there are no such victims, why has the left attacked the Senator for fifty years?

Answer: he exposed them.

That's the most convoluted logic I've seen from you yet.

First, it's not "the left" that attacks McCarthy. It's most of America. Only you right-wing whackadoodles see the need to defend the man and his witch hunts.

Secondly, a lot of people have faced continued attack over the past 50-60 years. Does the very fact that they are attacked acquit them?

Completely idiotic.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Quoting Coulter on this is laughable. She has an obvious agenda of trying to acquit McCarthy. Even conservative scholars' blasted Coulter's propaganda. ("killed by a patriotic inmate." ?)

Any serious reading of Coulter reveals that This book has a deeper rooting in reality than her entire body of work.

Well, DC does stand for 'Detective Comics' after all.

Had McCarthy contented himself with investigating and removing threats to US intelligence and military security from government agencies involved in same, then that would have been one thing. A proper course of action for a US senator. However by attempting to use the investigations to further his political career he allowed a hydra to emerge which could have had disastrous consequences. His methods did spawn a period of hysteria and the backlash from his actions certainly produced a surge of relativisism which has led to allowing Islamic worshippers into the US military at a time when we are actively fighting Islamic terrorists.

In short, while we do need ot be wary of enemy agents infiltrating our government, intelligence agencies, and military, Joseph McCarthy went about it in a reprehensible manner; similar to the tactics of PC he follwed the teachings of Joseph Goebbels in propogating a Big Lie.

"...use the investigations to further his political career ..."
This is one of those myths spread by the left as an indication of McCarthy's misjudgement of the people and the times.

1. The ‘Hollywood Ten’ were called before the HUAC in 1947. This had nothing to do with Senator McCarthy; he had just been elected to the Senate, and the Alger Hiss exposure, indictment and conviction occurred before McCarthy made his famous 1950 speech in Wheeling, West Virginia, before McCarthy did any investigating of Hollywood.

2. It was the Democrats response to the conviction of paid Soviet agent Alger Hiss that motivated McCarthy, not some desire for aggrandizement.

President Roosevelt laughed off the charges against Hiss. Dean Acheson, then undersecretary of Treasury, not only vouched for Hiss and his brother, Donald, also charged by Whitaker, but Acheson immediately requested Donald as his assistant.

Right on cue, the press vilified HUAC for persecuting Hiss. President Truman denounced the Hiss investigation as a “red herring” by do-nothing Republicans (Whitaker Chambers, Witness, p. 564-74)

Felix Frankfurter and Adlai Stevenson offered to be character witnesses for Hiss. (McCarthy began referring to Stevenson as ‘Alger Stevenson.’) Eleanor Roosevelt said she believed Hiss. But the American public listened to the hearings, and they believed Chambers: a Gallup poll found 4 out of 5 supported the HUAC.(Alan Weinstein, Perjury, p. 58) And the poll included 71% of Democrats who also agreed- just not the Democrat Party!

3. Based on the reaction of the press to HUAC, are you positing that McCarthy thought that his anti-Communist campaign would be a resume enhancement???


"...it in a reprehensible manner..."
Can you document that, or is it something you heard in the schoolyard?


Check out this partial list of Soviet agents:
Alexander Koral, former engineer of the municipality of New York.
Helen Koral, Berg’s wife, housewife.
Byron T. Darling, engineer for the Rubber Company. [1][2]
A. A. Yatskov
George Blake, United Kingdom SIS officer who betrayed existence of the Berlin Tunnel under the Soviet sector and who probably betrayed Popov.
Felix Bloch, U.S. State Department economic officer. Robert Hanssen warned Soviets about the investigation into his activities [3] [2]
Christopher John Boyce and Daulton Lee, American walk-in spy for the Soviet Union, known as the Falcon and the Snowman.
[edit] Buben group
Louis F. Budenz, former member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party USA, former editor of the newspaper Daily Worker, professor at Fordham University.
Robert Menaker, commercial traveler (traveling salesman) to a variety of trade firms
Salmond Franklin, without specific assignments, husband of “Rita.” Used as a “signaler” [Russian: sviazist = communications man]
Sylvia Caldwell, technical secretary for a Trotskyist group in New York City.
Lona Cohen, sentenced to 20 years; subject of Hugh Whitemore's drama for stage and TV Pack of Lies
Morris Cohen sentenced to 25 years; subject of Hugh Whitemore's drama for stage and TV Pack of Lies
Judith Coplon, NKGB counter-intelligence operative in the U.S. Department of Justice; two convictions overturned on technicalities
Eugene Dennis, senior member of the Communist Party USA leadership, sentenced to 5 years for advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government
Samuel Dickstein, Congressman from New York, Vice Chairman of HUAC during hearings into the Business Plot against President Franklin D. Roosevelt
Mark Gayn, journalist, The Washington Post; Amerasia case
Dieter Gerhardt, South African Navy Commodore who was convicted of spying for the Soviet Union; alleged that the Vela Incident was a joint Israeli-South African nuclear test after being released in 1994 and emigrating to Switzerland
Ben-Zion Goldberg (Benjamin Waife), journalist, contributor to Toronto Star, Saint Louis Dispatch, New York Post, Today, and The New Republic [4]
Theodore Hall, physicist who supplied information from Los Alamos during World War II, a NYC walk-in, never prosecuted
Robert P. Hanssen, Federal Bureau of Investigation agent convicted of spying for the Soviet Union, betrayed tunnel under new Mt Alto Soviet Embassy in Washington DC; may have done most damage since Philby
Reino Häyhänen, Finn who worked in the US as a Soviet spy directed by Rudolf Abel, used the VIC cypher, defected to the US [3]
Edward Lee Howard, ex-Central Intelligence Agency officer who sold info and escaped to Soviet Union in 1985
V. J. Jerome, sentenced to three years for advocating overthrow of U.S. government
Martin Kamen, Radiation Laboratory at the University of California, Berkeley, Manhattan Project
Walter Krivitsky
Giovanni Rossi Lomanitz, Berkeley Radiation Laboratory
Clayton J. Lonetree, U.S. Marine Embassy guard Sergeant suborned by female KGB agent ('Violetta Sanni') in Moscow, turned himself in to authorities in December 1986, convicted 1987
Jay Lovestone
Carl Marzani, Deputy Chief Photographic Presentation Branch Office of Strategic Services; United States Department of State
Alan Nunn May, physicist who supplied information about the British and American atomic bomb research to the Soviet Union
Kate Mitchell
[edit] Mocase
Boris Morros, Hollywood producer
Jack Soble, sentenced to 7 years, brother of Robert Soblen
Myra Soble, sentenced to 5½ years
Robert Soblen, sentenced to life for spying at Sandia Lab, etc., but escaped to Israel, then committed suicide
Jane Zlatovski
Mark Zborowski
[edit] Perlo group
Victor Perlo, was the Chief of the Aviation Section of the War Production Board during World War II; head of branch in Research Section, Office of Price Administration Department of Commerce; Division of Monetary Research Department of the Treasury; and later the Brookings Institution
Harold Glasser, Director, Division of Monetary Research, United States Department of the Treasury; United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration; War Production Board; Advisor on North African Affairs Committee; United States Treasury Representative to the Allied High Commission in Italy
Alger Hiss, Director of the Office of Special Political Affairs United States Department of State
Charles Kramer, Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization; Office of Price Administration; National Labor Relations Board; Senate Subcommittee on Wartime Health and Education; Agricultural Adjustment Administration; Senate Subcommittee on Civil Liberties; Senate Labor and Public Welfare Committee; Democratic National Committee
Harry Magdoff, Statistical Division of War Production Board and Office of Emergency Management; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WTB; Tools Division, War Production Board; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, United States Department of Commerce
George Perazich, Foreign Economic Administration; United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration
Allen Rosenberg, Board of Economic Warfare; Chief of the Economic Institution Staff, Foreign Economic Administration; Senate Subcommittee on Civil Liberties; Senate Committee on Education and Labor; Railroad Retirement Board; Counsel to the Secretary of the National Labor Relations Board
Donald Wheeler, Office of Strategic Services Research and Analysis division
[edit] Redhead group
Hedwiga Gompertz, Wacek’s wife, sent to the U.S. in 1938 to carry out fieldwork assignments, defected in 1948
Paul Massing, scientist at Columbia University’s Institute of Social Research. Defected.
Laurence Duggan (aka 19th), former employee of the State Department. Suicide.
Franz Leopold Neumann, former consultant in the Department of Research and Analysis of the OSS
Rudolf Roessler chief of the very successful, and very odd, Lucy spy ring of World War II
[edit] Rosenberg ring
Joel Barr, met Julius Rosenberg at City CoIIege of New York, then spied with him and Al Sarant at Army Signal Corps lab in New Jersey; escaped prosecution by fleeing to Soviet bloc in 1950. Died 2007.
Max Elitcher, longtime friend of Rosenberg and Sobell from their days at CCNY before testifying against them
Klaus Fuchs, physicist who supplied information about the British and American atomic bomb research to the Soviet Union; sentenced to 14 years in the UK.
Vivian Glassman, fiancée of Joel Barr [4]
Harry Gold, courier sentenced to 30 years
David Greenglass, draftsman at Los Alamos in World War Two, gave atomic bomb drawings to his sister Ethel Rosenberg, and eventually the Soviets; sentenced to 15 years
Ruth Greenglass, escaped prosecution in exchange for her husband's testimony against his sister and brother-in-law, the Rosenbergs
Miriam Moskowitz, convicted for assisting Brothman [5]
William Perl, active in Young Communist League at CCNY, then met Al Sarant at Columbia University; served 5 years for perjury
Morton Sobell, involved with Barr, Perl and Julius Rosenberg at CCNY; sentenced to 30 years at Alcatraz
Ethel Rosenberg, executed at Sing Sing prison near her native New York City for conspiracy to commit espionage
Julius Rosenberg, executed at Sing Sing prison near his native New York City for conspiracy to commit espionage
Al Sarant, stole radar secrets at Army Signal Corps lab in New Jersey, then he and his mistress abandoned their families for the protection of his Soviet masters in 1950
Andrew Roth, Office of Naval Intelligence liaison officer with United States Department of State
Saville Sax college friend of Theodore Hall assisted with Hall's disclosure to the Soviets of Los Alamos research and development [5] [6]
[edit] Silvermaster group
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, Chief Planning Technician, Procurement Division, United States Department of the Treasury; Chief Economist, War Assets Administration; Director of the Labor Division, Farm Security Administration; Board of Economic Warfare; Reconstruction Finance Corporation Department of Commerce
Helen Silvermaster (wife)
Schlomer Adler, United States Department of the Treasury
Norman Chandler Bursler, United States Department of Justice Anti-Trust Division [6]
Frank Coe, Assistant Director, Division of Monetary Research, Treasury Department; Special Assistant to the United States Ambassador in London; Assistant to the Executive Director, Board of Economic Warfare; Assistant Administrator, Foreign Economic Administration
Lauchlin Currie, Administrative Assistant to President Roosevelt; Deputy Administrator of Foreign Economic Administration; Special Representative to China
Bela Gold, Assistant Head of Program Surveys, Bureau of Agricultural Economics, Agriculture Department; Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization; Office of Economic Programs in Foreign Economic Administration
Sonia Steinman Gold, Division of Monetary Research U.S. Treasury Department; U.S. House of Representatives Select Committee on Interstate Migration; U.S. Bureau of Employment Security
Irving Kaplan, Foreign Funds Control and Division of Monetary Research, United States Department of the Treasury Foreign Economic Administration; chief advisor to the Military Government of Germany
George Silverman, civilian Chief Production Specialist, Material Division, United States Army Air Forces Air Staff, War Department, Pentagon
William Henry Taylor, Assistant Director of the Middle East Division of Monetary Research, United States Department of Treasury
William Ullman, delegate to United Nations Charter meeting and Bretton Woods conference; Division of Monetary Research, Department of Treasury; Material and Services Division, Air Corps Headquarters, Pentagon
Anatole Volkov
Harry Dexter White, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury; Head of the International Monetary Fund
[edit] Sound and Myrna groups

Solomon Adler, United States Department of the Treasury
Cedric Belfrage, journalist; British Security Coordination
Elizabeth Bentley courier messenger for Communist spy rings on the American East Coast in the 30s, testified about her activities in hearings in the 40s and 50s
Frank Coe, Assistant Director, Division of Monetary Research, Treasury Department; Special Assistant to the United States Ambassador in London; Assistant to the Executive Director, Board of Economic Warfare; Assistant Administrator, Foreign Economic Administration
Lauchlin Currie, Administrative Assistant to President Roosevelt; Deputy Administrator of Foreign Economic Administration; Special Representative to China
Rae Elson, an active Communist, and courier of the CPUSA underground, was chosen by Joseph Katz to replace Bentley at the Soviet front organization, U.S. Shipping and Service Corporation.
Frederick V. Field, Executive Secretary American Peace Mobilization
Edward Fitzgerald, War Production Board
Charles Flato, Board of Economic Warfare; Civil Liberties Subcommittee, Senate Committee on Education and Labor
Eva Getzov, Jewish Welfare Board [7]
Bela Gold, Bureau of Intelligence, Assistant Head of Program Surveys, Bureau of Agricultural Economics, Agriculture Department; Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization; Office of Economic Programs in Foreign Economic Administration
Sonia Steinman Gold, Division of Monetary Research U.S. Treasury Department; U.S. House of Representatives Select Committee on Interstate Migration; U.S. Bureau of Employment Security
Irving Goldman, Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs
Jacob Golos, the "main pillar" of the NKVD intelligence network in the U.S., died in the arms of comrade Elizabeth Bentley
Gerald Graze, United States Civil Service Commission; Department of Defense, U.S. Navy official
Stanley Graze, United States Department of State intelligence
Michael Greenberg, Board of Economic Warfare; Administrative Division, Enemy Branch, Foreign Economic Administration; United States Department of State
Joseph Gregg, Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs; United States Department of State
Maurice Halperin, Chief of Latin American Division, Research and Analysis section, Office of Strategic Services; United States Department of State
Julius Joseph, Far Eastern section (Japanese Intelligence) Office of Strategic Services
Irving Kaplan, United States Department of the Treasury Foreign Economic Administration; United Nations Division of Economic Stability and Development; Chief Advisor to the Military Government of Germany
List of Soviet agents in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are more.

How many did you find in Detective Comics?

 

[geauxtohell]

First let me wipe away that tear.

That better?

Don't ask a question if you aren't ready to hear an answer.

I snipped the rest of your post. I addressed your questions, and feel little need to indulge you in your penchant to play english professor on a message board.

You seem to revert to that role when backed into a corner.

If you weren't so damned predictable, it would almost be cute.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Occam's Razor suggests selecting the simplest explanation.

No shit.

Of course, your lack of imagination limits the choices.

Occam's Razor would negate the need for much imagination.



Not from you.



Contributes zilch to the thread.



No, it's the end point for those of us who don't need to re-write history.



No, your OP is aimed at beating everyone who doesn't agree with your (and Ann Coulter's) opinions about the head and neck with your typical lame, pseudo-intellectual, babble.



There is no challenge. You are entitled to your opinion of McCarthy, it just doesn't square with history.



How in the hell can you say that? You've spoken to everyone McCarthy outed to see what the ramifications were? I suspect this all turns on your definition of "innocent".

As I posted earlier, Joseph Welch disagreed with your sentiments during the McCarthy Army hearings:





Did anyone spend time in prison as a result of McCarthy's work? If not, then that point is meaningless.



Not directly. No one ever claimed McCarthy maintained "black listing" power. The power he had was to accuse the innocent and cause others to black list them.

8. No one in this thread, of almost 100 responses, has been able to identify any 'victims' of Senator McCarthy.

Again: Victims of Senator McCarthy are imaginary, and created to serve the interests of the left.

Victims of McCarthyism

So, if there are no such victims, why has the left attacked the Senator for fifty years?

Answer: he exposed them.

That's the most convoluted logic I've seen from you yet.

First, it's not "the left" that attacks McCarthy. It's most of America. Only you right-wing whackadoodles see the need to defend the man and his witch hunts.

Secondly, a lot of people have faced continued attack over the past 50-60 years. Does the very fact that they are attacked acquit them?

Completely idiotic.

"...pseudo-intellectual, babble..."
I understand why you might believe that. Best of luck with your education.

Lattimore? He was your example of a 'VICTIM'?
Lattimore was found to be a “conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy” by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record) As far as his life being ruined, “When Lattimore was indicted, Johns Hopkins put him on leave with pay. He continued to have use of his office and secretary but taught no classes.” Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China "d0e11129"
• Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek — then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
• Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore — within the Politburo of the Communist Party — "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
• A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."
• On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations


Would you care to retract?

 

[PoliticalChic]

First let me wipe away that tear.

That better?

Don't ask a question if you aren't ready to hear an answer.

I snipped the rest of your post. I addressed your questions, and feel little need to indulge you in your penchant to play english professor on a message board.

You seem to revert to that role when backed into a corner.

If you weren't so damned predictable, it would almost be cute.

"...backed into a corner..."
Do you see a lot of back-tracking? Obfuscation? Denial of the OP?

Be serious.


"...it would almost be cute..."

Bet you say that to all the girls.

 

[geauxtohell]

"...were their any convictions..."

Oh! You got me Ms. Grammar Cop! Can I just pay my grammar ticket now and avoid a lengthy and annoying trip to Grammar court?

I beg you, try, to the best of your ability, on tippy toes, to inform yourself on the topic before you post!

Prosecutor: a government official who conducts criminal prosecutions on behalf of the state


Senator:a member of the legislative body known as the senate . See Article I of the Constitution.

The SENATOR's goal was to show how lax the government was when it came to Communists.

Not prosecute. Not obtain convictions.

Yeah, and again, no shit. I would think that a matter of such grave national importance would yield co-operation with the DOJ or some sort of law enforcement body. Hell, Hoover was there and he was always more than happy to go after dirty commies!

You can't have it both ways. Either McCarthy's work was of the upmost importance and resulted in prosecution or he was blowing smoke.

So which one is it?

Educate yourself as to further steps taken by Eisenhower to protect the nation.

Eisenhower showed his yellow streak by being bullied by McCarthy. It was one of his greatest failings.

Eisenhower finally had enough (and grew some backbone) when McCarthy went after the Army. It was in '54, during the Eisenhower Administration, when the Army's top lawyer showed McCarthy for the buffoon that he was.

Again, you can't have it both ways. Either Ike was on board with McCarthy or not.

Do you not understand "clearly consistent" with the interests of national security' ? Or are you a Democrat?

Your opinion on "national security" is meaningless to me, especially after our last "conservative" President was shown to be completely inept at it.

Though, I'll bet you supported Iraq out of concern for national security, didn't you?

I'll take that as a yes, and retort with you don't know a fucking thing about national security.

 

[geauxtohell]

"...pseudo-intellectual, babble..."
I understand why you might believe that. Best of luck with your education.

Thanks for your well wishes. Unlike you, I choose to further my education in a field that has utility beyond an internet message board.

Lattimore? He was your example of a 'VICTIM'?
Lattimore was found to be a “conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy” by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record) As far as his life being ruined, “When Lattimore was indicted, Johns Hopkins put him on leave with pay. He continued to have use of his office and secretary but taught no classes.” Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China "d0e11129"
• Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek — then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
• Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore — within the Politburo of the Communist Party — "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
• A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."
• On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations


Would you care to retract?

Not at all. If Lattimer was guilty of such heinous crimes, why wasn't he charged?

You know, the whole "due process" thing that is so inherently American.

As for the damage inflicted by McCarthy's witch hunts, you are not at latitude to claim no one was damaged. People don't have to be flogged on the public square to have damages. Damage to reputation, as noted by the Army's Chief Council, is more than sufficient and wholly improper for a Senator to inflict upon regular Americans.

Talk about your abuses of power.

 

[geauxtohell]

"...backed into a corner..."
Do you see a lot of back-tracking? Obfuscation? Denial of the OP?

Be serious.

I am trying to keep a straight face at this point based on the complete crap you have introduced into this thread as "support" for your position.

I did appreciate the Mencken quote though. I didn't really see how it was germane to the topic at hand, but I know you like to try and impress us all with your big brain.

"...it would almost be cute..."

Bet you say that to all the girls.

You're a girl?

 

[PoliticalChic]

"...pseudo-intellectual, babble..."
I understand why you might believe that. Best of luck with your education.

Thanks for your well wishes. Unlike you, I choose to further my education in a field that has utility beyond an internet message board.

Lattimore? He was your example of a 'VICTIM'?
Lattimore was found to be a “conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy” by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record) As far as his life being ruined, “When Lattimore was indicted, Johns Hopkins put him on leave with pay. He continued to have use of his office and secretary but taught no classes.” Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China "d0e11129"
• Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek — then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
• Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore — within the Politburo of the Communist Party — "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
• A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."
• On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations


Would you care to retract?

Not at all. If Lattimer was guilty of such heinous crimes, why wasn't he charged?

You know, the whole "due process" thing that is so inherently American.

As for the damage inflicted by McCarthy's witch hunts, you are not at latitude to claim no one was damaged. People don't have to be flogged on the public square to have damages. Damage to reputation, as noted by the Army's Chief Council, is more than sufficient and wholly improper for a Senator to inflict upon regular Americans.

Talk about your abuses of power.

1. You fail to admit that the Senator was not a prosecutor. His job was to expose, not prosecute.

2. Lattimore was a supposed expert on Asia, a position that allowed him to influence American foreign policy, and a reason why Chang Kai Shek was thrown under the bus.

And why 70 million Chinese were murdered and why we face many of the problems with China today.

3. Lattimore not being prosecuted is exactly proof of the sentiments of McCarthy, the laxity toward security risks, even when exposed.

Senator Tydings — as with so many cases in his alleged "investigation" of McCarthy's charges — did a real whitewash on Lattimore, proclaiming, "There is nothing in that file to show that you were a Communist or ever had been a Communist, or that you were in any way connected with any espionage information or charges, so that the FBI file puts you completely, up to this moment, in the clear."

The ever-intrepid Evans (M. Stanton Evans, author of Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and his fight Against America's Enemies,) has produced a memo from Lou Nichols of the FBI saying he couldn't understand what had come over Tydings — that the Maryland Democrat knew very well that Director Hoover had said that if he had been on the Loyalty Board, he would have questioned any attempt to clear Lattimore, and that he regarded the IPR icon as a security risk and would never have hired him at the Bureau.


Starting to change your mind?

 

[PoliticalChic]

"...backed into a corner..."
Do you see a lot of back-tracking? Obfuscation? Denial of the OP?

Be serious.

I am trying to keep a straight face at this point based on the complete crap you have introduced into this thread as "support" for your position.

I did appreciate the Mencken quote though. I didn't really see how it was germane to the topic at hand, but I know you like to try and impress us all with your big brain.

"...it would almost be cute..."

Bet you say that to all the girls.

You're a girl?

Sorry- I gave you too much credit. I thought you'd understand the Mencken quote as a response to Occam's Razor.

Think about it.

Since I have been able to answer each and every point you have attempted to make, and have used documentation, your post comes across as insipid.

And, the theme of this thread: as you and those of your ilk have been unable to identify any 'victims,' and I have shown spies and security risks identified by the Senator, it seems as though you fall into that category so clearly identified by Lenin:

"In political jargon, the term useful idiot was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in western countries and the attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that though the person in question naïvely thought themselves an ally of the Soviets or other Communists, they were actually held in contempt by them, and being cynically used.

The term is now used more broadly to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by a political movement, terrorist group, hostile government, or business, whether or not the group is Communist in nature."

Useful idiot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ravi]

I stopped reading this thread awhile ago, but I must say that the success of the BIG LIE is that people like PC think McCarthy was some kind of hero for demonizing people with political beliefs different than his.

IMO, people like McCarthy are un-American fascists.

And I don't even agree with the Communist, Marxist and certainly not the Stalinist viewpoint.

That is all.

 

[LuckyDan]

I stopped reading this thread awhile ago, but I must say that the success of the BIG LIE is that people like PC think McCarthy was some kind of hero for demonizing people with political beliefs different than his.

IMO, people like McCarthy are un-American fascists.

And I don't even agree with the Communist, Marxist and certainly not the Stalinist viewpoint.

That is all.

I don't think he really cared what their political beliefs were, so long as they weren't Stalin loyalists working for the federal government. You love Uncle Joe? Great! But get the hell outta the war room.

 

[Ravi]

I stopped reading this thread awhile ago, but I must say that the success of the BIG LIE is that people like PC think McCarthy was some kind of hero for demonizing people with political beliefs different than his.

IMO, people like McCarthy are un-American fascists.

And I don't even agree with the Communist, Marxist and certainly not the Stalinist viewpoint.

That is all.

I don't think he really cared what their political beliefs were, so long as they weren't Stalin loyalists working for the federal government. You love Uncle Joe? Great! But get the hell outta the war room.

Which of those he accused turned out to be Stalin loyalists?

There is a vast difference between one spy and mass hysteria. A difference similar to invading a country because they shared, however loosely, a religion with some fucktard terrorists.

But you know...McCarthyism is a good example of why profiling doesn't work.

 

[Big Fitz]

Communists who attempted to give aid and comfort to a blood-soaked ideology?

He ruined no innocent lives.

So you believe people in the US should not be allowed to follow their own political ideology.

No innocent lives? You're kidding right?

Am I the only person to see the irony that PC is defending a guy and his ideology that is probably as close to Communism as anything that has ever been part of the American political landscape?

When one's political ideology interferes with my right to be unmolested by it, yes.

And the problem with politics is that only one style can rule any nation, not a plurality. But in this world in which travel is easy, you can find the government and politics you desire and emigrate.

 

[PixieStix]

Yesterday there was an excellent thread on the Ukrainian holocaust.

Today is the anniversary of the sentencing of Alger Hiss. Most folks don’t remember him, but most Americans have been fed the lie that the real enemy of America during WW II and the post-war era was Senator Joseph McCarthy. The Big Lie.


January 25, 1950 Alger Hiss sentenced for perjury for denying he was a Soviet spy (see Jan. 21). Dean Acheson, Truman’s Sec’y of State, said:
“I do not intend to turn my back on Alger Hiss.”

February 9,1950 In his famous Wheeling, West Virginia speech, Senator Joe McCarthy said he had the names of 57 card-carrying Communists in the State Department. [Two weeks after Alger Hiss was convicted of perjury.]


If you have always accepted "Senator McCarthy as personificaton of evil" as true, can you name any innocent folks, -that means people who did not support or work for the blood-soaked ideology that took over many parts of the world, threatened America, and was responsible for some hundred million deaths, Communism, -whose lives were ‘ruined’ by the spotlight that Senator McCarthy pointed toward Communists, Communist supporters, and officials of the United States who were lax in protecting the country?

My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.

Oh, I agree, completely. Have thought the same thing for a very long time, even though the public school system tried to indoctrinate me with lies and half truths. Didn't take on me. I am too curious and way too skeptical

 

[Big Fitz]

If McCarthy was such a valued member of the Senate and force against communism, why has the GOP distanced itself from him over the past 60 years? Why does the term McCarthy-ism have negative connotations?

1. Because the Rockafeller Republicans did not care about patriotism, any more than they care about anything but maintaining their own power.

2. McCarthy was an ideologue, and one thing a craven elitist rent seeker like those RINOs want is to stay away from anything controversial that may upset their chance at re-election. It's all about them.

3. 60 years of constant leftist asymmetrical media warfare against McCarthy for when he effectively 'jumped the shark' with the hearings have created a false history.

4. His death, shortly after leaving office allowed the media who hated him with a purple passion to write the epitaph, and distort his life any way they saw fit.

Or you can buy into the fact that some sort of evil liberal conspiracy has devoted significant time and effort into deriding McCarthy for the past 60 years.

A conspiracy of small minds and bigger lies, justified by the ends has always been the tactic of the left. There are people who still believe Sacco and Vanzetti, the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss are innocent little lambs cruelly persecuted by the mean ole' government.

Historical revisionism is rampant, particularly by the left, because they know that to control the historical record is to control the minds of a people. Book banning, burning, editing, selective omission, yellow dog journalism, contextual shading and out and out bullshit is seen world wide, and the Americans who subscribe to this point of view are not above any of these tactics either.

"Beware those who wish to control your information, for in their minds, they view themselves your master." (Chairman Lal, Sid Meier's 'Alpha Centauri')

 

[LuckyDan]

I stopped reading this thread awhile ago, but I must say that the success of the BIG LIE is that people like PC think McCarthy was some kind of hero for demonizing people with political beliefs different than his.

IMO, people like McCarthy are un-American fascists.

And I don't even agree with the Communist, Marxist and certainly not the Stalinist viewpoint.

That is all.

I don't think he really cared what their political beliefs were, so long as they weren't Stalin loyalists working for the federal government. You love Uncle Joe? Great! But get the hell outta the war room.

Which of those he accused turned out to be Stalin loyalists?

There is a vast difference between one spy and mass hysteria. A difference similar to invading a country because they shared, however loosely, a religion with some fucktard terrorists.

But you know...McCarthyism is a good example of why profiling doesn't work.

Names I posted last night.

The term Stalin loyalist is mine, Ravi. To be fair to the Senator - and I know that's what we all want here - I should have said loyalty risk, or security risk. Still, I would say any member of CPUSA in the 40s and 50s was a risk for a federal job, and very probably a Stalin loyalist.

I used the term in response to your post saying that Joe didn't like people with different political views. I doubt he would have given a rat's ass about a Stalinist working at the corner liquor store.

 

[Charles Stucker]

There are more.

I looked at the link given earlier, did you?
The one that goes to VOLUMES of the senate investigations.
So, with hundreds, nay Thousands of investigations they find a few dozen spies. And McCarthy makes it a press case for the press. McCarthy was a politician, just like Obama, whose sole desire was political power. I dare venture there was a point where, at the peak of his popularity, Joe secretly had aspirations to the White House. Had McCarthy's goals been as altruistic as the gullible dupes who defend him believe, then he would have pushed for a serious FBI investigation and the result would have been pink slips, not nationally broadcast hearings.

Ann Coulter, like you, is an addled fool who spouts venom against everyone who fails to agree with every jot and tittle of her dogma.

 

[PoliticalChic]

There are more.

I looked at the link given earlier, did you?
The one that goes to VOLUMES of the senate investigations.
So, with hundreds, nay Thousands of investigations they find a few dozen spies. And McCarthy makes it a press case for the press. McCarthy was a politician, just like Obama, whose sole desire was political power. I dare venture there was a point where, at the peak of his popularity, Joe secretly had aspirations to the White House. Had McCarthy's goals been as altruistic as the gullible dupes who defend him believe, then he would have pushed for a serious FBI investigation and the result would have been pink slips, not nationally broadcast hearings.

Ann Coulter, like you, is an addled fool who spouts venom against everyone who fails to agree with every jot and tittle of her dogma.

"...whose sole desire was political power..."

Since you have unveiled the ability to read minds, allow me the same:

Senator McCarthy's sole desire was to save the United States from world domination by Communism, which would have resulted it the same kind of repressions and slaughters history has documented in the Soviet Union, and China...over one hundred million murdered, in the United States.


The words of John Earl Haynes:
"In my view the American Communist party was a real danger to American democracy in the context of the early Cold War. Its chief threat was that of political subversion, not espionage. It is difficult to imagine that the political mobilization necessary for America’s commitment to the early Cold War would taken place had Communists and their allies retained the influence they had achieved in the labor movement and the broad New Deal coalition."
Return to Responses, Reflections and Occasional Papers


"...few dozen spies..."

Sadly you are unable to understand the difference between quantity and quality(of the threat.)

I suppose you would say why all the fuss, hardening targets at airports, tightening the rules for folks entering the country...after all there was only about a dozen terrorists who flew those planes into the Twin Towers....

You can't be that dense. Your agenda must be to support the McCarthy slander at all costs, and protect from criticism the party that, even today, continues to attempt to shut down dissent.


The paid and controlled Soviet agents and spies were advisors at the highest levels of government. They worked at the Pentagon, and at the Manhattan Project.

Your view, it seems, is based on the relatively small number of prosecutions and convictions, but this overlooks the objectives of the FBI, which weighed exposing sources vs. prosecutions. The aim in counterespionage is always to disrupt the cells and prosecutions are secondary. The ongoing decryption of the Venona cables severely damaged and disruptions of Soviet espionage rings (over 300 Soviet agents active in the US Government during WWII and thereafter) in the last half of the ‘40’s and ‘50’s, and, while only a few spies were prosecuted, scores of others were identified, removed from their government posts and neutralized. Others who functioned as support personnel for Soviet espionage networks (couriers, recruiters, hosts of safe houses, and providers of false identities and sham jobs) were identified, questioned and frightened into inactivity. The Cold War and Korea reduced government and public toleration for Communists and Communist sympathizers. Truman’s legal assault on communism, including the Smith Act, prosecuted leaders and included removing security risks from government. (see “In Denial,” Haynes and Klehr)


Senator Joe McCarthy confronted government officials concealing communist involvement and excessively lax security with regards to Communists in sensitive U.S. Government posts. In many cases he was on target, with over 81 of the names he gave the Tydings committee resulting in resignations or movement of security risks. Given that over 200 of the spies uncovered in the Venona decrypts were never identified, we can only speculate as to the national security impact of removing Communists from key DoD and State Dept posts. Arthur Herman, author of "Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator," says that the accuracy of McCarthy's charges "was no longer a matter of debate," that they are "now accepted as fact." And The New York Post's Eric Fettmann has noted: "growing historical evidence underscores that, whatever his rhetorical and investigative excesses - and they were substantial - McCarthy was a lot closer to the truth about Communism than were his foes."


If you have an interest in understanding the times, pick up a copy of the Haynes and Klehr book on the Venona Papers. You will change your view.