The Success of the Big Lie

[Cecilie1200]

According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist. Moss, in fact, had been “absolutely” identified as a Communist Party member by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, A Conspiracy So Immense). She was listed in the Communist Party’s records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon. At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.

Of course, none of the press looked in the phonebook: there were not three other Annie Lee Moss’- just one. At 72 R Street, SW. The same address listed in the Communist Party records. (Thomas C. Reeves, The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy, p.568-569) Even after the hearings, and the Rosenberg Case, the Army rehired her.
The myth was projected by a Broadway play, A Question of Loyalty, in which a phonebook actually had three Moss’.

Provide proof she broke the law.

Actually, the question wasn't whether she broke the law. The question was why she had a security clearance, when she was clearly a security risk.

Annie Lee Moss wasn't a "semi-literate wash-woman". She was a code clerk at the Pentagon. An FBI agent, working undercover in the DC American Communist Party for seven years, identified Moss as a member of the Communist Party, which at that time should have denied her security clearance. McCarthy was trying to figure out how, with such a background, she managed to get promoted from a cafeteria worker (which is where she started out) to code clerk. And that WAS the job of his committee, after all.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Provide proof she broke the law.

Dr., your argument is sorely limited by not understanding the debate.

This from my earlier post:
" McCarthy’s primary goal was not to expose individual Communists, he was simply demanding of the liberal establishment: Why were they sheltering traitors? It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making when he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy in a key position at the IMF… For decades, people who should not have been allowed anywhere a government job were strolling into sensitive positions with the US government. For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice."

Now, if that is clear, answer this:

If Ms. Moss was a 'card-carrying' member of the Communist Party, which she was, do you think that the Army was living up to its duty by allowing her in the code room of the Pentagon?

Your answer to this will, indeed, be telling.

First up, there was no proof that Ms. Moss was a card carrying member of the Communist Party at the time of her employment in the Army. The most that could be said is that she came in contact with the Party when she was younger. It is strongly suspected that she left the Communist party long before her employment in the Army.

If the most you have as proof is a magazine suscription following her, then I submit you have never been an alumni of a University or College. The alumni mailings have a bad tendancy to find you anywhere. After Katrina the one piece of mail that could find me monthly, despite my best attempts at letting bill collectors know my current location, was the alumni newsletter. And I was trying to lose them.

In addition, there was never a single shred of proof that Ms. Moss ever posed a security risk, ever acted untoward, or was even in the same room as a decrypted message or the means to decrypt them.

If you consider Ms. Moss a vindication of McCarthy, I strongly suggest you put down your copy of "Treason" and pick up a few books. Or look up the McCarthy transcripts.

No proof, huh? This was the evidence presented against Moss:

Moss acknowledged that one of the top three Washington, D.C., Communists had visited her home and that she had lived, briefly, with an active party member who hosted Communist meetings at her house.

Copies of the Communist Party organ Daily Worker were delivered to Moss's home, addressed to her, but she denied that they were for her, and claimed that “there are three Annie Lee Mosses” in Washington, DC. At her testimony, Moss stated "We didn't get this Communist paper until after we had moved to Southwest, at 72 R Street." "[T]he address she gave in getting Government employment was the same as that of an Annie Lee Moss known to FBI Undercover Woman Mary Markward as a Communist." "[N]one of the other Anne Mosses lived at the three addresses contained in the CP [Communist Party] records — but this Annie Lee Moss had lived at all of them."

Oh, yeah, did I forget to mention the testimony of undercover FBI agent Mary Markward?

"In 1958, the federal Subversive Activities Control Board reported that 'the Communist Party's own records, the authenticity of which the Party has at no time disputed … show that one Annie Lee Moss, 72 R Street SW, Washington DC, was a party member in the mid-1940s.'

Donald Ritchie, associate historian in the Senate Historical Office, "In 1958 the Subversive Activities Control Board confirmed Markward’s assertion that Moss’ name had appeared on the Communist party rolls in the mid-1940s."

In the landmark United States Supreme Court decision of Communist Party of the United States v. Subversive Activities Control Board, 367 U.S. 1, 86 (1961), Justice Felix Frankfurter (who had been a mentor of and character witness for Alger Hiss) , writing for the majority, noted in response to allegations by the Communist Party that Markward had committed perjury, “On December 18, 1956, the [Subversive Activities Control] Board issued its 240-page Modified Report. It found that Mrs. Markward was a credible witness....”

The US Army charged Moss with being card number 37269 in the American Communist Party, saying she was issued the card in 1943.

Andrea Friedman, associate professor of history and of women and gender studies at Washington University in St. Louis, reported "substantial, if contested, evidence possessed by the U.S. government of her [Moss's] involvement in the [Communist] party. That evidence—consisting of perhaps a dozen pieces of paper—included a list of “party recruits” that identified Moss by name, race, age, and occupation; membership lists from two Communist party branches, the Communist Political Association, and various ad hoc committees containing Moss’s name and address, as well as the number of her CP [Communist Party] membership book; and receipt records from 1945 for Daily Worker subscriptions that included Moss’s name and amounts paid."

 

[Cecilie1200]

IF that is true, then quite simply she is un-American. It is impossible to support criminalizing dissent and support a free Republic. It is just as impossible to support trying to limit dissent and support a free Republic.

PC, your thoughts on Ravi's accusation?

I accept that she was un-American, not a loyal American, and whatever permutation you wish.

Now tell me if she should be employed by the government in sensitive positions.

If your answer is the oh-so-logical "perhaps not," then you agree with the campaign of Senator McCarthy.

Its unfortunate that McCarthy didn't limit himself to governmental jobs. He also went after Americans not affiliated with the security appartatus in any way shape or form.

Really? Who?

And as for Ms. Moss, provide proof she was a security threat. Or that she was even active in the Communist Party at the time of her employment.

Did that already.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If you really and truly think this is why he came under attack, you're sadly mistaken. I also have to question if you're a liberal and authoritarian as a Conservative would understand that the real reason McCarthy came under attack is that he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government that constituted a threat to the liberty of every man woman and child in the USA.

That isn't an over statement. If McCarthy's actions had gained long term support imagine just how much abuse the current Democratic controlled Senate and House could hand out to their political opponents.

There's a reason that McCarthy's actions are villified. Namely, even if he found a few Communists (and even a blind squirrel finds a nut if they look hard enough), he violated our long standing traditions and notions of justice to do so.

People that support McCarthyism ARE NOT CONSERVATIVES and have no room to claim to be so. Supporting un-Constitutional expansions of power at the Federal level make you a neocon.

"...the real reason McCarthy came under attack is that he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government..."

Instead of vague jargon of the left, please, if you can, show exactly what it is that Senator McCarthy did that you find objectionable.

No babble.

Specifics.

I find Senator McCarthy's illicit use of his seat in the United States Senate to name and vilify ordinary Americans with little, or scant, evidence to be extremely objectionable.

Illicit? What committee was he on? Oh, that's right, the Senate Committee on Government Operations. Wait, wouldn't one of their jobs be to investigate security risks on the government payroll? Why, yes, I believe it would.

McCarthy never went after "ordinary Americans", nor did he work with "scant evidence". He investigated government employees, based on investigations done by other agencies previously. Believe it or not, he wasn't pulling names out of his hat.

"Illicit."

 

[jim crawford]

“The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.”
[nytimes-herman-mccarthy ]


Three innocent people ruined by the likes of Jos McCarthy, Toper Extraordinaire [ dead @ 48 of alcohol induced cirrhosis ] and, I suspect, closet homosexual person [otherwise, why have Roy Cohn, King Of Scumbaggio and noted closet catamite , as your assistant?]: John Stewart Service, John K. Fairbank, Owen Lattimore, O. Edmund Clubb, John Paton Davies, Jr, Theodore H. White, John Carter Vincent, Steve Nelson, Theodore Kaghan, Harry Dexter White. The inclusion of Harry Dexter White deserves some explanation since he is still regarded as some sort of espionage mastermind, which in fact he was not. In truth, international skullduggery was the farthest thing from his mind. He was all of his life a committed capitalist and was a major force in designing the Bretton Woods monetary system [and the creation of the World Bank & the IMF], which the USSR refused to join, and which Nixon finally succeeded in unintentionally [?] destroying in 1972, handing essential control of the world monetary system, the World Bank, and the IMF over to the international corporations.

Of the “China Hands” --- Lattimore, Fairbank, Davies, Clubb, et al, it can safely be said that their removal from the Foreign Service probably contributed to the tragedy of Vietnam, as their presence in the State Department would have definitely worked toward putting a brake on American plans for invading Vietnam, as all of them, like generals MacArthur and Eisenhower, et al. opposed any land war in Asia. As it was, the people who replaced the China Hands were not influential enough to stop the tragedy from taking place.

However, White also had working in his office at Treasury a group of committed Leninist/Stalinists [ Bolshevism - not like real communism at all, at least as prescribed by Marx, Rosa Luxembourg, et al.] led by one Nathan Silvermaster, a friend of White's, and a covert, Soviet espionage agent who, although he was supposed to have been thoroughly vetted by J Edgar Hoover's FBI, was not discovered to be a spy until after WWII.

Although in those days, 1930s – ca.1944, “communism” was a perfectly acceptable and entirely legal, American political philosophy, White himself also made what later turned out to be a mistake --- talking extensively with the Soviet representative to Bretton Woods, part of White's job assignment really, but the man turned out to be a KGB operative as well as an economist representing the USSR at Bretton Woods. Compounding the problem of the accusations against White was the fact that the Venona transcripts mentioned him by a code name, the complication being that Venona had code names for every important person in the US and allied governments, including Eisenhower, Marshall, Hull, Hiss, Stimson,Truman, Harry Hopkins, Acheson, Lauchlin Currie [ accused, but never prosecuted --- no evidence] , FDR, Churchill, Montgomery, etc. Unfortunately some people fail to understand that being mentioned in Venona is not evidence of espionage by that person.

As for Alger Hiss, it is becoming increasingly clear that Hiss was never an espionage agent, the most recent and relevant testimony being that of two Soviet NKVD/KGB generals, Dmitri Volkogonov and Julius Kobyakov, whose testimony, based on thorough research in Soviet KGB and GRU [military] files, flatly contradicts the socalled “evidence” presented by political partisans in this country. [NYU - The Alger Hiss Story ]

For more names of people whose lives were seriously and adversely affected by the likes of 'Tail Gunner' Joe, see the relevant biographies and histories, e.g, authors like Ellen Schrecker, David M. Oshinsky, et al. He was also called the "Pepsi Cola Kid," but not because he defended the Nazis who murdered 90 American GIs at Malmedy in 1944.]


For some vintage Ann Coulter & Joe McCarthy: Joe Conason Reviews Ann Coulter's Treason

jim crawford
Westwood NJ

 

[LuckyDan]

Wow. Thanks, Jim. Say hey to the gang at the DW for me.

Boy was I wrong.

 

[mudwhistle]

Mccarthy was the main enemy in WWII?

I have never heard ANYONE claim that.

He was an evil toad but not the main evil toad.

Yes....and George W. Bush is the biggest mass-murderer and terrorist in history I suppose.

 

[PoliticalChic]

“The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.”
[nytimes-herman-mccarthy ]


Three innocent people ruined by the likes of Jos McCarthy, Toper Extraordinaire [ dead @ 48 of alcohol induced cirrhosis ] and, I suspect, closet homosexual person [otherwise, why have Roy Cohn, King Of Scumbaggio and noted closet catamite , as your assistant?]: John Stewart Service, John K. Fairbank, Owen Lattimore, O. Edmund Clubb, John Paton Davies, Jr, Theodore H. White, John Carter Vincent, Steve Nelson, Theodore Kaghan, Harry Dexter White. The inclusion of Harry Dexter White deserves some explanation since he is still regarded as some sort of espionage mastermind, which in fact he was not. In truth, international skullduggery was the farthest thing from his mind. He was all of his life a committed capitalist and was a major force in designing the Bretton Woods monetary system [and the creation of the World Bank & the IMF], which the USSR refused to join, and which Nixon finally succeeded in unintentionally [?] destroying in 1972, handing essential control of the world monetary system, the World Bank, and the IMF over to the international corporations.

Of the “China Hands” --- Lattimore, Fairbank, Davies, Clubb, et al, it can safely be said that their removal from the Foreign Service probably contributed to the tragedy of Vietnam, as their presence in the State Department would have definitely worked toward putting a brake on American plans for invading Vietnam, as all of them, like generals MacArthur and Eisenhower, et al. opposed any land war in Asia. As it was, the people who replaced the China Hands were not influential enough to stop the tragedy from taking place.

However, White also had working in his office at Treasury a group of committed Leninist/Stalinists [ Bolshevism - not like real communism at all, at least as prescribed by Marx, Rosa Luxembourg, et al.] led by one Nathan Silvermaster, a friend of White's, and a covert, Soviet espionage agent who, although he was supposed to have been thoroughly vetted by J Edgar Hoover's FBI, was not discovered to be a spy until after WWII.

Although in those days, 1930s – ca.1944, “communism” was a perfectly acceptable and entirely legal, American political philosophy, White himself also made what later turned out to be a mistake --- talking extensively with the Soviet representative to Bretton Woods, part of White's job assignment really, but the man turned out to be a KGB operative as well as an economist representing the USSR at Bretton Woods. Compounding the problem of the accusations against White was the fact that the Venona transcripts mentioned him by a code name, the complication being that Venona had code names for every important person in the US and allied governments, including Eisenhower, Marshall, Hull, Hiss, Stimson,Truman, Harry Hopkins, Acheson, Lauchlin Currie [ accused, but never prosecuted --- no evidence] , FDR, Churchill, Montgomery, etc. Unfortunately some people fail to understand that being mentioned in Venona is not evidence of espionage by that person.

As for Alger Hiss, it is becoming increasingly clear that Hiss was never an espionage agent, the most recent and relevant testimony being that of two Soviet NKVD/KGB generals, Dmitri Volkogonov and Julius Kobyakov, whose testimony, based on thorough research in Soviet KGB and GRU [military] files, flatly contradicts the socalled “evidence” presented by political partisans in this country. [NYU - The Alger Hiss Story ]

For more names of people whose lives were seriously and adversely affected by the likes of 'Tail Gunner' Joe, see the relevant biographies and histories, e.g, authors like Ellen Schrecker, David M. Oshinsky, et al. He was also called the "Pepsi Cola Kid," but not because he defended the Nazis who murdered 90 American GIs at Malmedy in 1944.]


For some vintage Ann Coulter & Joe McCarthy: Joe Conason Reviews Ann Coulter's Treason

jim crawford
Westwood NJ

First, welcome to the board.

Your post is a worthy attempt at refutation. I hope you will continue on the board, for without work such as yours, we are left with insipid fools such as Old Rocks, and beating him up and his neg reps have become tiresome.

But enough of the chit chat.

Your opus identifies you as a public school grad, one who has suffered through the 'progressive-education-anything-you-write-is-just-awesome' puffery.

The hallmark is the use of conjecture as though it were documented fact, the liberal 'feeling is as good as knowing' sophistry.

"...best and most generous estimate ..."
Do you know what an estimate is? And the importance of who makes the estimate? NYTimes?
An how many of the "ten thousand Americans " were fired by Senator McCarthy? Subpoenaed by him? Indicted by him? Well then, what connection?

"...removal from the Foreign Service probably contributed..."
Probably???? Conjecture, and so far fetched that you should be embarrassed.

"...Leninist/Stalinists [ Bolshevism - not like real communism at all..."
What???
I hope your future work will be more reality based.

"Although in those days, 1930s – ca.1944, “communism” was a perfectly acceptable and entirely legal, American political philosophy"
While the statement is basically true, the inclusion of the word "American" marks you as a dolt.
Further, merely because so many didn't recognize the viral threat, and still don't, as you prove, indicates how important was the work of Senator McCarthy.



Another indicaton of public school mis-education, you claim to list "Three innocent people ruined by the likes of Jos McCarthy," and then you list:"John Stewart Service, John K. Fairbank, Owen Lattimore, O. Edmund Clubb, John Paton Davies, Jr, Theodore H. White, John Carter Vincent, Steve Nelson, Theodore Kaghan, Harry Dexter White."

First, Lattimore:
Lattimore was found to be a “conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy” by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record) As far as his life being ruined, “When Lattimore was indicted, Johns Hopkins put him on leave with pay. He continued to have use of his office and secretary but taught no classes.” Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China "d0e11129"

The ever-intrepid Evans (M. Stanton Evans, author of Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and his fight Against America's Enemies,) has produced a memo from Lou Nichols of the FBI saying he couldn't understand what had come over Tydings — that the Maryland Democrat knew very well that Director Hoover had said that if he had been on the Loyalty Board, he would have questioned any attempt to clear Lattimore, and that he regarded the IPR icon as a security risk and would never have hired him at the Bureau.
• Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek — then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
• Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore — within the Politburo of the Communist Party — "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
• A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."
• On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations


You are coming mighty close to a failing grade.

And would you connect the names you indicate with the restrictions of the OP: 1)innocent of the stain of Communism, 2) attach the term 'ruined' with your 'witnesses.' You do know the meaning of ruined, don't you? If not sure, consult the Collegiate Dictionary.

Sorry, I have tried to give you a 'gentleman's C grade' but your reference to Hiss as innocent, in the light of the work by Haynes and Klehr, Venona Papers, marks you as a failure in this area.

“… four notes in Alger Hiss's handwriting, sixty-five typewritten copies of State Department documents and five strips of microfilm, some of which contained photographs of State Department documents. The press came to call these the "Pumpkin Papers"(Whittaker Chambers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) And, of course, all doubt was removed in 1995, when the Venona Soviet cables were decrypted.

Again, welcome, but I expect better work in the future.

 

[Cecilie1200]

“The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.”
[nytimes-herman-mccarthy ]


Three innocent people ruined by the likes of Jos McCarthy, Toper Extraordinaire [ dead @ 48 of alcohol induced cirrhosis ] and, I suspect, closet homosexual person [otherwise, why have Roy Cohn, King Of Scumbaggio and noted closet catamite , as your assistant?]: John Stewart Service, John K. Fairbank, Owen Lattimore, O. Edmund Clubb, John Paton Davies, Jr, Theodore H. White, John Carter Vincent, Steve Nelson, Theodore Kaghan, Harry Dexter White. The inclusion of Harry Dexter White deserves some explanation since he is still regarded as some sort of espionage mastermind, which in fact he was not. In truth, international skullduggery was the farthest thing from his mind. He was all of his life a committed capitalist and was a major force in designing the Bretton Woods monetary system [and the creation of the World Bank & the IMF], which the USSR refused to join, and which Nixon finally succeeded in unintentionally [?] destroying in 1972, handing essential control of the world monetary system, the World Bank, and the IMF over to the international corporations.

Of the “China Hands” --- Lattimore, Fairbank, Davies, Clubb, et al, it can safely be said that their removal from the Foreign Service probably contributed to the tragedy of Vietnam, as their presence in the State Department would have definitely worked toward putting a brake on American plans for invading Vietnam, as all of them, like generals MacArthur and Eisenhower, et al. opposed any land war in Asia. As it was, the people who replaced the China Hands were not influential enough to stop the tragedy from taking place.

However, White also had working in his office at Treasury a group of committed Leninist/Stalinists [ Bolshevism - not like real communism at all, at least as prescribed by Marx, Rosa Luxembourg, et al.] led by one Nathan Silvermaster, a friend of White's, and a covert, Soviet espionage agent who, although he was supposed to have been thoroughly vetted by J Edgar Hoover's FBI, was not discovered to be a spy until after WWII.

Although in those days, 1930s – ca.1944, “communism” was a perfectly acceptable and entirely legal, American political philosophy, White himself also made what later turned out to be a mistake --- talking extensively with the Soviet representative to Bretton Woods, part of White's job assignment really, but the man turned out to be a KGB operative as well as an economist representing the USSR at Bretton Woods. Compounding the problem of the accusations against White was the fact that the Venona transcripts mentioned him by a code name, the complication being that Venona had code names for every important person in the US and allied governments, including Eisenhower, Marshall, Hull, Hiss, Stimson,Truman, Harry Hopkins, Acheson, Lauchlin Currie [ accused, but never prosecuted --- no evidence] , FDR, Churchill, Montgomery, etc. Unfortunately some people fail to understand that being mentioned in Venona is not evidence of espionage by that person.

As for Alger Hiss, it is becoming increasingly clear that Hiss was never an espionage agent, the most recent and relevant testimony being that of two Soviet NKVD/KGB generals, Dmitri Volkogonov and Julius Kobyakov, whose testimony, based on thorough research in Soviet KGB and GRU [military] files, flatly contradicts the socalled “evidence” presented by political partisans in this country. [NYU - The Alger Hiss Story ]

For more names of people whose lives were seriously and adversely affected by the likes of 'Tail Gunner' Joe, see the relevant biographies and histories, e.g, authors like Ellen Schrecker, David M. Oshinsky, et al. He was also called the "Pepsi Cola Kid," but not because he defended the Nazis who murdered 90 American GIs at Malmedy in 1944.]


For some vintage Ann Coulter & Joe McCarthy: Joe Conason Reviews Ann Coulter's Treason

jim crawford
Westwood NJ

In future, edit your cut-and-pastes so that they're more readable. I'm not entirely sure what theme the first sentence of your first paragraph is trying to establish, but if it's that any of those people listed were innocent, the Venona Project proves they were not. Also, that whole "I suspect McCarthy was gay, because why else would he hire a known gay man?" remark makes you sound like a smarmy, hypocritical, gay-hating bigot.

Not a good first effort. Try harder.

 

[PoliticalChic]

This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
"Go easy on the guy. He\'s obviously brand new to message boards in general, and USMB in particular. Such a rough and sarcastic tone was completely unnecessary. Save that for the regular posters like myself and cut new guys some slack."

Do I detect that you actually think that your posts are in any way superior to this newby?

Sadly, you are mistaken. Your posts are far more flawed, as this poster actually shows some knowledge of the subject, an aspect lacking in your posts.

Further, he attempts documentation to a greater extent than you do.

So, don't hurt your arm pattting yourself on the back, and
to paraphrase Donne, the bell tolls for you.

 

[Cecilie1200]

This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
"Go easy on the guy. He\'s obviously brand new to message boards in general, and USMB in particular. Such a rough and sarcastic tone was completely unnecessary. Save that for the regular posters like myself and cut new guys some slack."

Do I detect that you actually think that your posts are in any way superior to this newby?

Sadly, you are mistaken. Your posts are far more flawed, as this poster actually shows some knowledge of the subject, an aspect lacking in your posts.

Further, he attempts documentation to a greater extent than you do.

So, don't hurt your arm pattting yourself on the back, and
to paraphrase Donne, the bell tolls for you.

How's the newby going to learn from his errors and do better if no one points them out and tells him what he needs to do?

And when did we become a public school, to flatter and praise someone just for drawing breath?

 

[Dr.Traveler]

This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
"Go easy on the guy. He\'s obviously brand new to message boards in general, and USMB in particular. Such a rough and sarcastic tone was completely unnecessary. Save that for the regular posters like myself and cut new guys some slack."

Do I detect that you actually think that your posts are in any way superior to this newby?

Sadly, you are mistaken. Your posts are far more flawed, as this poster actually shows some knowledge of the subject, an aspect lacking in your posts.

Further, he attempts documentation to a greater extent than you do.

So, don't hurt your arm pattting yourself on the back, and
to paraphrase Donne, the bell tolls for you.

Smug superiority. Why oh why am I not surprised?

Here's an offer: If you find my posts inferior, add me to your ignore list. Drop me a line letting me know you did, and I will do the same.

Till then, I won't apologize for the neg rep. Such a blatantly hostile response, when a simple factual response would have sufficed, should get a neg rep. Hopefully one day you'll learn that if even if you're 100% correct, people won't listen, learn or accept it coming from an @$$

 

[PoliticalChic]

This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
"Go easy on the guy. He\'s obviously brand new to message boards in general, and USMB in particular. Such a rough and sarcastic tone was completely unnecessary. Save that for the regular posters like myself and cut new guys some slack."

Do I detect that you actually think that your posts are in any way superior to this newby?

Sadly, you are mistaken. Your posts are far more flawed, as this poster actually shows some knowledge of the subject, an aspect lacking in your posts.

Further, he attempts documentation to a greater extent than you do.

So, don't hurt your arm pattting yourself on the back, and
to paraphrase Donne, the bell tolls for you.

Smug superiority. Why oh why am I not surprised?

Here's an offer: If you find my posts inferior, add me to your ignore list. Drop me a line letting me know you did, and I will do the same.

Till then, I won't apologize for the neg rep. Such a blatantly hostile response, when a simple factual response would have sufficed, should get a neg rep. Hopefully one day you'll learn that if even if you're 100% correct, people won't listen, learn or accept it coming from an @$$

I neither 'ignore' nor give negative reps.

I leave that to the lesser posters, as you have so identified yourself.

My belief is that the essence of a public message board is to hash out differences in public-

unless one feels so inferior (if the shoe fits...) that one is unable to sustain the back and

forth.

In that case, one can use the 'ignore' function, or subscribe to the ilntellectual laze that

you have found fits your character.

I never asked for an apology,...merely indicated my disrespect for you. And I did so in

public. You might, as you suggested vis-a-vis the newby, learn from my methods. If you

are capable of learning.

So, in summary, it seems that not only do you lack ability, but have all the backbone of a Slinky.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

This is the message from Dr. Traveler, along with another neg rep:
"Go easy on the guy. He\'s obviously brand new to message boards in general, and USMB in particular. Such a rough and sarcastic tone was completely unnecessary. Save that for the regular posters like myself and cut new guys some slack."

Do I detect that you actually think that your posts are in any way superior to this newby?

Sadly, you are mistaken. Your posts are far more flawed, as this poster actually shows some knowledge of the subject, an aspect lacking in your posts.

Further, he attempts documentation to a greater extent than you do.

So, don't hurt your arm pattting yourself on the back, and
to paraphrase Donne, the bell tolls for you.

Smug superiority. Why oh why am I not surprised?

Here's an offer: If you find my posts inferior, add me to your ignore list. Drop me a line letting me know you did, and I will do the same.

Till then, I won't apologize for the neg rep. Such a blatantly hostile response, when a simple factual response would have sufficed, should get a neg rep. Hopefully one day you'll learn that if even if you're 100% correct, people won't listen, learn or accept it coming from an @$$

I neither 'ignore' nor give negative reps.

I leave that to the lesser posters, as you have so identified yourself.

My belief is that the essence of a public message board is to hash out differences in public-

unless one feels so inferior (if the shoe fits...) that one is unable to sustain the back and

forth.

In that case, one can use the 'ignore' function, or subscribe to the ilntellectual laze that

you have found fits your character.

I never asked for an apology,...merely indicated my disrespect for you. And I did so in

public. You might, as you suggested vis-a-vis the newby, learn from my methods. If you

are capable of learning.

So, in summary, it seems that not only do you lack ability, but have all the backbone of a Slinky.

PoliticalChic's character on display for all to see here.

Keep on posting. You're the MVP for my side of the argument.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Smug superiority. Why oh why am I not surprised?

Here's an offer: If you find my posts inferior, add me to your ignore list. Drop me a line letting me know you did, and I will do the same.

Till then, I won't apologize for the neg rep. Such a blatantly hostile response, when a simple factual response would have sufficed, should get a neg rep. Hopefully one day you'll learn that if even if you're 100% correct, people won't listen, learn or accept it coming from an @$$

I neither 'ignore' nor give negative reps.

I leave that to the lesser posters, as you have so identified yourself.

My belief is that the essence of a public message board is to hash out differences in public-

unless one feels so inferior (if the shoe fits...) that one is unable to sustain the back and

forth.

In that case, one can use the 'ignore' function, or subscribe to the ilntellectual laze that

you have found fits your character.

I never asked for an apology,...merely indicated my disrespect for you. And I did so in

public. You might, as you suggested vis-a-vis the newby, learn from my methods. If you

are capable of learning.

So, in summary, it seems that not only do you lack ability, but have all the backbone of a Slinky.

PoliticalChic's character on display for all to see here.

Keep on posting. You're the MVP for my side of the argument.

That's what I mean about lacking ability.

What an earth-shaking come back!

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well he's a fun drunk, anyway. It's easy to laugh now about the CPUSA of the 40s and 50s, considering how they've been made to look like old ladies at an afternoon tea.

And I'm enjoying your posts.

Thanks, I really like posting about subjects in which I have an interest.

And Beer-boy allowed me the opportunity.

I was expecting the libs to defend the Dem party, yell and scream about McCarthy, but they seem less than interested.

I may have to post a response to my own posts!

Shhh! He's dozing.

I think so many people have heard the Hollywood sob stories and revised histories that the truth about McCarthy was lost long ago. Somebody mentioned Ann Coulter's having put the record strait. I agree. He wasn't a saint, but he wasn't the drunken witch-hunter he's painted to be, either.

Ann Coulter only touched on starting to put the record straight. The source she went to, M. Stanton Evans, truly set the record straight in his book, "Blacklisted by History". A fascinating read for any history buff with an open mind.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Now, can you identify ONE SPY that McCarthy found?

And that's the bottom line, right there.

That number? 0

Conservatives can try to re-write history all they want, but McCarthy earned his rightful spot as a shameless demagogue who ruthlessly trashed innocent people to propel his own political career. His "list" consisted of a bizarre compilations of names that were derived out of hearsay, rumors, and the most scant of evidence. McCarthy was never interested in the American concept of justice or due process.

My 90+ year old grandmother (who is no liberal, believe me), had an interesting theory about McCarthy's meteoric fall. She said that television is what did him in. According to her, prior to the Army hearings, McCarthy was principally broadcast on the radio. People heard "Tailgunner Joe" and made him out, in their minds, to be this noble crusader against communism. However, the Army/McCarthy hearings were broadcasts and everyone got to see McCarthy for what he was a "hissin' possum" (the words of my grandmother).

Of course, if there were any merit to the claims that McCarthy was something more than a drunk opportunist, then the GOP would embrace him as a hero, as opposed to shunning him.

McCarthy's fall came at a flash at an almost Hollywood-esque dialogue from Joseph N. Welch, head council for the United States Army.

Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness. Fred Fisher is a young man who went to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting what looks to be a brilliant career with us. Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale and Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think that I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.

Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?

I believe I listed in one of my earlier posts a number of people McCarthy's subcommittee questioned who were later positively identified by the Venona Project as Soviet spies.

And yeah, McCarthy was done in by clever television editing. Which just goes to show you you can never fully believe what you see on TV.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And that's the bottom line, right there.

That number? 0

Conservatives can try to re-write history all they want, but McCarthy earned his rightful spot as a shameless demagogue who ruthlessly trashed innocent people to propel his own political career. His "list" consisted of a bizarre compilations of names that were derived out of hearsay, rumors, and the most scant of evidence. McCarthy was never interested in the American concept of justice or due process.

My 90+ year old grandmother (who is no liberal, believe me), had an interesting theory about McCarthy's meteoric fall. She said that television is what did him in. According to her, prior to the Army hearings, McCarthy was principally broadcast on the radio. People heard "Tailgunner Joe" and made him out, in their minds, to be this noble crusader against communism. However, the Army/McCarthy hearings were broadcasts and everyone got to see McCarthy for what he was a "hissin' possum" (the words of my grandmother).

Of course, if there were any merit to the claims that McCarthy was something more than a drunk opportunist, then the GOP would embrace him as a hero, as opposed to shunning him.

McCarthy's fall came at a flash at an almost Hollywood-esque dialogue from Joseph N. Welch, head council for the United States Army.

From the bold, willowy beauty, herself:

"Among the Soviet operatives who had been in government jobs and named by McCarthy were T.A. Bisson, Mary Jane Keeney, Cedric Belfrage, Solomon Adler, Franz Neumann, Leonard Mins, Gustavo Duran, and William Remington (later killed with a bar of soap in prison by a patriotic inmate)." [Ann Coulter Treason, pp 59-60]

His whole gig was identifying loyalty risks who were working for the government. It is interesting to note, too, that he refused to name names outside of closed session, until compelled to do so by the democrats.

You make me sad.

First, even PC says that Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time.

Then you use Coulter as a resource.

But I gave you both the benefit of the doubt, and briefly researched Mary Jane Keeney.

I admit that finding an unbias source is problematic.

In 1946 the FBI generated a:

335-page report on information furnished by Elizabeth Bentley (“Gregory”) and follow-up through FBI surveillance concerning the Silvermaster Group, (Lauchlin Currie, Harry Dexter White, etc.), the Perlo Group (Alger Hiss, etc.), and others. Discusses contacts of Mary Jane Keeney with Joseph Bernstein, David Wahl, Maurice Halperin, etc

From the dubious wikipedia;

In February 1950, Senator Joseph McCarthy accused Keeney of being a member of the Communist Party, not an agent serving a foreign government. By the end of 1950, Keeney lost her position with the United Nations. She was convicted of contempt of Congress, however the decision was overturned upon appeal.

Either way, you have been duped: Mary Jane Keeny was never convicted or exposed of treason as a spy, much less by McCarthy, and her only conviction (contempt of Congress) was overturned.

Nice of you to move the goalposts in mid-play. First, it's "did McCarthy find any", then it's "were they convicted".

Mary Jane Keeney was questioned by McCarthy, not as a spy, but merely as a Communist who shouldn't have had government clearance. As it happens, she and her husband WERE proven, by the Venona decrypts, to have been working for Soviet military intelligence.

Just because you're not convicted in court of something doesn't mean you didn't do it. And it doesn't mean the people who suspected you of it were wrong.

 

[Cecilie1200]

From the bold, willowy beauty, herself:

"Among the Soviet operatives who had been in government jobs and named by McCarthy were T.A. Bisson, Mary Jane Keeney, Cedric Belfrage, Solomon Adler, Franz Neumann, Leonard Mins, Gustavo Duran, and William Remington (later killed with a bar of soap in prison by a patriotic inmate)." [Ann Coulter Treason, pp 59-60]

His whole gig was identifying loyalty risks who were working for the government. It is interesting to note, too, that he refused to name names outside of closed session, until compelled to do so by the democrats.

You make me sad.

First, even PC says that Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time.

Then you use Coulter as a resource.

But I gave you both the benefit of the doubt, and briefly researched Mary Jane Keeney.

I admit that finding an unbias source is problematic.

In 1946 the FBI generated a:




From the dubious wikipedia;

In February 1950, Senator Joseph McCarthy accused Keeney of being a member of the Communist Party, not an agent serving a foreign government. By the end of 1950, Keeney lost her position with the United Nations. She was convicted of contempt of Congress, however the decision was overturned upon appeal.

Either way, you have been duped: Mary Jane Keeny was never convicted or exposed of treason as a spy, much less by McCarthy, and her only conviction (contempt of Congress) was overturned.

Why so serious?

On page 65, Ann quotes McCarthy thusly, referencing Buckley and Bozell as the quote source:

"I have enough to convince me that either they are members of the Communist Party or they have given great aid to the Communists: I may be wrong. that is why I said that unless the Senate demanded that I do so, I would not submit this publicly...It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health."

For my Wiki research subject, I chose William Remington. Now THIS should make you sad:

William Walter Remington (October 25, 1917 – November 24, 1954) was an economist employed in various federal government positions until his career was interrupted by accusations of espionage made by the Soviet spy and defector Elizabeth Bentley. He was convicted of perjury in connection with these charges in 1953, and murdered in prison in 1954. His death has been cited as one of the few murders attributable to McCarthyism.[2]

William Remington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would that make anyone sad?

 

[Cecilie1200]

You make me sad.

First, even PC says that Coulter is a babbling idiot 50% of the time.

Then you use Coulter as a resource.

But I gave you both the benefit of the doubt, and briefly researched Mary Jane Keeney.

I admit that finding an unbias source is problematic.

In 1946 the FBI generated a:




From the dubious wikipedia;



Either way, you have been duped: Mary Jane Keeny was never convicted or exposed of treason as a spy, much less by McCarthy, and her only conviction (contempt of Congress) was overturned.

Why so serious?

On page 65, Ann quotes McCarthy thusly, referencing Buckley and Bozell as the quote source:

"I have enough to convince me that either they are members of the Communist Party or they have given great aid to the Communists: I may be wrong. that is why I said that unless the Senate demanded that I do so, I would not submit this publicly...It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health."

For my Wiki research subject, I chose William Remington. Now THIS should make you sad:

William Walter Remington (October 25, 1917 – November 24, 1954) was an economist employed in various federal government positions until his career was interrupted by accusations of espionage made by the Soviet spy and defector Elizabeth Bentley. He was convicted of perjury in connection with these charges in 1953, and murdered in prison in 1954. His death has been cited as one of the few murders attributable to McCarthyism.[2]

I fascinated that both you and PC seem enamoured of the same heresay McCarthy (Coulter?) quote, where he admits he's an idiot that casts a broad net, and catches....NOTHING!

At any rate, Wiki, as I said, is a somewhat disingenuous source, but like PoliticalChick, its cheap and easy. Even it makes the point that William Remmington was being investigated long before McCarthy began his witch-hunt:

Acting on Bentley's information, the FBI began a secret surveillance of Remington in late 1945.

McCarthy found nothing.

I love it. "If the people he questioned were already suspected by someone else, even if they turned out to be guilty as sin, McCarthy found NOTHING!"

Yeah, whatever.