The Success of the Big Lie

[PoliticalChic]

Yesterday there was an excellent thread on the Ukrainian holocaust.

Today is the anniversary of the sentencing of Alger Hiss. Most folks don’t remember him, but most Americans have been fed the lie that the real enemy of America during WW II and the post-war era was Senator Joseph McCarthy. The Big Lie.


January 25, 1950 Alger Hiss sentenced for perjury for denying he was a Soviet spy (see Jan. 21). Dean Acheson, Truman’s Sec’y of State, said:
“I do not intend to turn my back on Alger Hiss.”

February 9,1950 In his famous Wheeling, West Virginia speech, Senator Joe McCarthy said he had the names of 57 card-carrying Communists in the State Department. [Two weeks after Alger Hiss was convicted of perjury.]


If you have always accepted "Senator McCarthy as personificaton of evil" as true, can you name any innocent folks, -that means people who did not support or work for the blood-soaked ideology that took over many parts of the world, threatened America, and was responsible for some hundred million deaths, Communism, -whose lives were ‘ruined’ by the spotlight that Senator McCarthy pointed toward Communists, Communist supporters, and officials of the United States who were lax in protecting the country?

My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.

 

[Big Fitz]

Ann Coulter did a great job examining Alger Hiss, the Rosenbergs and Joe McCarthy in her book... "Treason", I believe.

Personally, we need a government in power again not afraid to try, convict and pubically hang traitors. Nowadays, there is no penalty for treasonous acts. It's a wink and a nod and maybe a deferred sentance if anything happens at all... unless you're an Islamist.

Then you'll get put in prison at least where you can build up a following to go out and wage Jihad as your proxies.

 

[Truthmatters]

Mccarthy was the main enemy in WWII?

I have never heard ANYONE claim that.

He was an evil toad but not the main evil toad.

 

[Big Black Dog]

I think a very big problem in America is that we have turned into an "It's ok" nation meaning nobody does anything wrong. Remember the old saying back in the 60's - "If if feels good, do it?" That's where we are today. Political correctness keeps people at bay in crying foul when it sometimes needs to be cried. We are our own worst enemy because we no longer police ourselves in terms of human behavior. You can't paddle your neighbor kids ass when he being a brat and send him home. First of all, there's nobody at home to receive him because both parents (if there are two parents) are at work and secondly, they will react violently because you've punished their perfect little child. Everything decent in this country is now viewed as radical behavior when in the past it was the people doing all the wild stuff that were questionable. Now, radical is the norm. Sad, huh?

 

[RodISHI]

I think a very big problem in America is that we have turned into an "It's ok" nation meaning nobody does anything wrong. Remember the old saying back in the 60's - "If if feels good, do it?" That's were we are today. Political correctness keeps people at bay in crying foul when it sometimes needs to be cried. We are our own worst enemy because we no longer police ourselves in terms of human behavior. You can't paddle your neighbor kids ass when he being a brat and send him home. First of all, there's nobody at home to receive him because both parents (if there are two parents) are at work and secondly, they will react violently because you've punished their perfect little child. Everything decent in this country is now viewed as radical behavior when in the past it was the people doing all the wild stuff that were questionable. Now, radical is the norm. Sad, huh?

Now days you cannot even punish bad behavior of your own children without someone screaming it is a form of abuse. In as much as beating respect into someone does not work treating disrespect with blind eyes does not work either. Accountability went out the window with the new age progressives.

 

[Samson]

My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.

My opinion is that, like all politicos, there was a kernal of truth under the mountain of bullshit McCarthy generated: hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" were not regarded as candidates for the loony bin, but good candidates for congress, as much as hysterics regarding "Witchcraft" were regarded as Moral Models.

I think a very big problem in America is that we have turned into an "It's ok" nation meaning nobody does anything wrong. .... Sad, huh?

Accountability went out the window with the new age progressives.

I disagree that "new age progressives" have been the cause of declining social accountability. IMHO McCarthyism, and the entire radical reaction to fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's caused the pendulum of cultural norms to swing the other direction and accept "moral relativism" as a strong arguement to defend the weakest case.

What we (Western Civilization) needs now are more clearly defining events that are "Wrong" or "Evil." We need another Hitler, another OBL, to reset the equilibrium.......Interestingly, Islam has no concept of Moral Relativity.

.....Unhappily the stakes are higher today than during the 1950's when MCCarthy was able to define Evil as Communism.....I'm sure the only act that can happen today that would convince moral relativists that Evil exists, is the explosion of a nuclear device inside a major city during a gay pride parade......

Islamist may teach The West that McCarthy might have had a point: Radicalism cannot be countered with Moral Relativism, but only with Radicalism.

 

[RodISHI]

My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.

My opinion is that, like all politicos, there was a kernal of truth under the mountain of bullshit McCarthy generated: hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" were not regarded as candidates for the loony bin, but good candidates for congress, as much as hysterics regarding "Witchcraft" were regarded as Moral Models.

I think a very big problem in America is that we have turned into an "It's ok" nation meaning nobody does anything wrong. .... Sad, huh?

Accountability went out the window with the new age progressives.

I disagree that "new age progressives" have been the cause of declining social accountability. IMHO McCarthyism, and the entire radical reaction to fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's caused the pendulum of cultural norms to swing the other direction and accept "moral relativism" as a strong arguement to defend the weakest case.

What we (Western Civilization) needs now are more clearly defining events that are "Wrong" or "Evil." We need another Hitler, another OBL, to reset the equilibrium.......Interestingly, Islam has no concept of Moral Relativity.

.....Unhappily the stakes are higher today than during the 1950's when MCCarthy was able to define Evil as Communism.....I'm sure the only act that can happen today that would convince moral relativists that Evil exists, is the explosion of a nuclear device inside a major city during a gay pride parade......

Islamist may teach The West that McCarthy might have had a point: Radicalism cannot be countered with Moral Relativism, but only with Radicalism.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion yet that does not mean they are correct.

What we don't need is another slaughter of innocent people such as Hitler performed yet there are those out there that are more than willing to go that route. What people will get for their choices to choose evil over good as a majority is very severe punishments in the natural such as droughts, plagues and famines.

 

[PoliticalChic]

My thesis here is that Senator McCarthy was an American hero who performed a necessary and valuable service, and should be honored for it.

My opinion is that, like all politicos, there was a kernal of truth under the mountain of bullshit McCarthy generated: hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" were not regarded as candidates for the loony bin, but good candidates for congress, as much as hysterics regarding "Witchcraft" were regarded as Moral Models.


I disagree that "new age progressives" have been the cause of declining social accountability. IMHO McCarthyism, and the entire radical reaction to fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's caused the pendulum of cultural norms to swing the other direction and accept "moral relativism" as a strong arguement to defend the weakest case.

What we (Western Civilization) needs now are more clearly defining events that are "Wrong" or "Evil." We need another Hitler, another OBL, to reset the equilibrium.......Interestingly, Islam has no concept of Moral Relativity.

.....Unhappily the stakes are higher today than during the 1950's when MCCarthy was able to define Evil as Communism.....I'm sure the only act that can happen today that would convince moral relativists that Evil exists, is the explosion of a nuclear device inside a major city during a gay pride parade......

Islamist may teach The West that McCarthy might have had a point: Radicalism cannot be countered with Moral Relativism, but only with Radicalism.

"fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's ..."
Absurd. Would you use the same phrase with respect to the Nazis?

Simply apply the same rationale and sentiment to a scenario where two administrations were not only riddled with Nazis, paid by Hitler's government, but also known to be Nazis, and suddenly the ludicrousness of your statement shines through.

" “[The] relationship [between communism and Nazism] may never be fully understood. But the Russian Red Terror, in its emphasis on the elimination of entire classes of peoples, in its description of opponents as "vermin" to be exterminated, does seem like a precursor of the German concentration camps. Moreover, Nazism profited greatly not only from Lenin's and Stalin's Gulag system--Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, solicited reports about the operations of Soviet camps--but also from Bolshevism itself, which served as both a whipping boy and, at times, a political idea that could be collaborated with. The two ideologies validated each other."
WALL STREET JOURNAL MONDAY, OCTOBER 25, 1999


'hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" ...'

Wow, do you need a refresher!

This is akin to saying "only a child molester"

I recommend The Black Book of Communism, written originally to find that Communism really wasn't that awful...but what they found made them reverse course.

"In its many enthroned variations, from Lenin's 1917 revolution to the recent MarxistLeninist regimes of Africa, communism has killed upwards of 100 million people65 million in China alone. Courtois and his colleagues do not simply unfold the numbers relentlessly and numbingly. Instead, they painstakingly explore the many ways the killing was done-from summary execution to forced deportations, from mass starvation to the gulag-and examine its many pretexts.”
The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression
Foreign Affairs (Book Review); New York; Nov/Dec 1999; Robert Legvold;


Now as for Senator McCarthy, your "a kernal of truth" comment misses the point by so much that I can only conclude that you know nothing about the time or the man.

He accepted the vituperation of every 'politico,' every newspaper, to ring the bell, to make all aware that the Democrat government was willing to overlook the Soviet agents throughout government, and to accept that they were taking orders from Moscow and sending Stalin all of Americas' secrets.

"...stakes are higher today ..."
No, they are not. Had the Soviet agents and fellow travelers suceeded, you would be in a gulag such as those of Stalin, or possibly cannabalized, as happened to educators in Mao's China.

Such is the effect of the success of the Big Lie.

 

[Samson]

"fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's ..."
Absurd. Would you use the same phrase with respect to the Nazis?

Simply apply the same rationale and sentiment to a scenario where two administrations were not only riddled with Nazis, paid by Hitler's government, but also known to be Nazis, and suddenly the ludicrousness of your statement shines through.

" “[The] relationship [between communism and Nazism] may never be fully understood. But the Russian Red Terror, in its emphasis on the elimination of entire classes of peoples, in its description of opponents as "vermin" to be exterminated, does seem like a precursor of the German concentration camps. Moreover, Nazism profited greatly not only from Lenin's and Stalin's Gulag system--Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, solicited reports about the operations of Soviet camps--but also from Bolshevism itself, which served as both a whipping boy and, at times, a political idea that could be collaborated with. The two ideologies validated each other."
WALL STREET JOURNAL MONDAY, OCTOBER 25, 1999

Ah, so this is the little red herring that we're supposed to run after?:

Communist Sympathisers = Nazi Sympathisers

and after we begin running after this ridiculously obvious deviation from the topic, then we can begin making absurd leaps of logic like equating American Communists during 1950-1960 with German Nazis during 1930's-1940's.


Then just to raise the volume of your laughable gullibility:

'hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" ...'

Wow, do you need a refresher!

This is akin to saying "only a child molester".

Lets at least try to remain On-Topic, shall we?

I'm not going to discuss the Nasi Party in Germany.
I'm not going to discuss Mao in China.
I'm not discussing Stalin's USSR.

I AM discussing McCarthyism. I'm defining this as the investigations of Senator McCarthy, in the USA, during the 1950's, m'k?

Now, dear madame, unless you can show me where the American Communist Party was smashing in Jewish Storefronts, sending people to gulags in Alaska, and forcably "reeducating intellectuals" at Harvard, I'll kindly ask you to try to, at very minimum, to insert some reality into your shrill replies.

Otherwise, go make me a sammich and bring me a beer.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Alger Hiss, Genuine Communist spy

Another Big Lie is to make FDR into a Great America President.

 

[PoliticalChic]

"fairly moderate political movements during the 1950's and 1960's ..."
Absurd. Would you use the same phrase with respect to the Nazis?

Simply apply the same rationale and sentiment to a scenario where two administrations were not only riddled with Nazis, paid by Hitler's government, but also known to be Nazis, and suddenly the ludicrousness of your statement shines through.

" “[The] relationship [between communism and Nazism] may never be fully understood. But the Russian Red Terror, in its emphasis on the elimination of entire classes of peoples, in its description of opponents as "vermin" to be exterminated, does seem like a precursor of the German concentration camps. Moreover, Nazism profited greatly not only from Lenin's and Stalin's Gulag system--Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, solicited reports about the operations of Soviet camps--but also from Bolshevism itself, which served as both a whipping boy and, at times, a political idea that could be collaborated with. The two ideologies validated each other."
WALL STREET JOURNAL MONDAY, OCTOBER 25, 1999

Ah, so this is the little red herring that we're supposed to run after?:

Communist Sympathisers = Nazi Sympathisers

and after we being running after this ridiculously obvious deviation from the topic, then we can begin making fairly moderate political movements


Then just to raise the volume of your laughable gullibility:

'hysterics regarding the "Red Menace" ...'

Wow, do you need a refresher!

This is akin to saying "only a child molester".

Lets at least try to remain On-Topic, shall we?

I'm not going to discuss the Nasi Party in Germany.
I'm not going to discuss Mao in China.
I'm not discussing Stalin's USSR.

I AM discussing McCarthyism. I'm defining this as the investigations of Senator McCarthy, in the USA, during the 1950's, m'k?

Now, dear madame, unless you can show me where the American Communist Party was smashing in Jewish Storefronts, sending people to gulags in Alaska, and forcably "reeducating intellectuals" at Harvard, I'll kindly ask you to try to, at very minimum, to insert some reality into your shrill replies.

Otherwise, go make me a sammich and bring me a beer.

1. "Ah, so this is the little red herring that we're supposed to run after?:

Communist Sympathisers = Nazi Sympathisers"

It seems that I have overestimated your conceptual abilities.

So your excuse, er...defense is that you are not aware of of the vast degrees of overlap between "Communist Sympathisers = Nazi Sympathisers"...
Both are world domination philosophies.
Both believe that the utopia that then envision require the extermination of opponents.
Both are responsibe for millions of murders of innocents.
Both are comand-and-control theses.
Both are examples of totalism.
Did I miss any?

So, are you putting forth that you were unaware of these, or will you continue to play dumb?

"...obvious deviation from the topic..."
If it is a deviation, it was as an attempt, as a courtesy, to respond to your risible comment that Communism is "fairly moderate political movements," by comparing it to what you would find difficult to call a "fairly moderate political movements."



"I'm not going to discuss the Nasi Party in Germany.
I'm not going to discuss Mao in China.
I'm not discussing Stalin's USSR. "

A wise strategy if you own a huge lacuna on the subject.

And a diaphanous attempt to limit the range of my exposition.

So, you wish to discuss only Senator McCarthy, but not Communism, the topic about which the Senator's fame, or infamy, orbits?
You become the subject of amusement.

The Senator has been the subject of attack, not because of a kernel of truth in his arguments, but because he exposed the liberals and Democrats as accepting the precepts of Communism, and still do.

So, this is the extent of your discussion of Senator McCarthy:"My opinion is that, like all politicos, there was a kernal of truth under the mountain of bullshit McCarthy generated..."

All the depth of wallpaper.

What exactly is the kernal of truth, if not exposing of liberals and Democrats?

Where is a real opinion here beyond the level of a public school essay?

I'd even be willing to show the links to Wilsonian Progressives, but I know how upset you'd be re: "on topic".

BTW, I made you the "sammich," but you'd best have someone taste it for you.

 

[Samson]

Alger Hiss, Genuine Communist spy

Another Big Lie is to make FDR into a Great America President.

Another Big Lie is that Santa Clause is gonna bring me Paulie Perette for Christmas

 

[Samson]

It seems that I have overestimated your conceptual abilities. .

Its true that you're certainly consistant in at least one thing: Poor Judgement

You meant, "Underestimated."

Still haven't read anything about American Communists sending anyone to a gulag, so your screeching has fallen on deaf ears.

After your meds begin to be effective, and you return to reality, let me know.

Until then you're just blithering.

Return to the kitchen, you forgot the pickle.

 

[PoliticalChic]

It seems that I have overestimated your conceptual abilities. .

Its true that you're certainly consistant in at least one thing: Poor Judgement

You meant, "Underestimated."

Still haven't read anything about American Communists sending anyone to a gulag, so your screeching has fallen on deaf ears.

After your meds begin to be effective, and you return to reality, let me know.

Until then you're just blithering.

Return to the kitchen, you forgot the pickle.

Still nothing about McCarthy?

And rather than 'overestimated,' let's try 'sorely disappointed.'

But, "... American Communists sending anyone to a gulag,..." let's make it really simple, as it seems that that is what you require: spies don't send anyone to gulags.

Spies prepare for their masters to take over, and the gulags follow.

Are you able to understand the distinction?

Overestimated.

And, I couldn't find the pickles, so I substituted a nordihydrocapsaicin pepper. You may need another beer.

 

[Samson]

It seems that I have overestimated your conceptual abilities. .

Its true that you're certainly consistant in at least one thing: Poor Judgement

You meant, "Underestimated."

Still haven't read anything about American Communists sending anyone to a gulag, so your screeching has fallen on deaf ears.

After your meds begin to be effective, and you return to reality, let me know.

Until then you're just blithering.

Return to the kitchen, you forgot the pickle.

Still nothing about McCarthy?

And rather than 'overestimated,' let's try 'sorely disappointed.'

But, "... American Communists sending anyone to a gulag,..." let's make it really simple, as it seems that that is what you require: spies don't send anyone to gulags.

Spies prepare for their masters to take over, and the gulags follow.

Are you able to understand the distinction?

Overestimated.

And, I couldn't find the pickles, so I substituted a nordihydrocapsaicin pepper. You may need another beer.

Well, it seems that you're returning to reality.

Now, can you identify ONE SPY that McCarthy found?

I happen to LIKE peppers!!

So you feeble attempt to incapacitate me is foiled again!!

 

[PoliticalChic]

Its true that you're certainly consistant in at least one thing: Poor Judgement

You meant, "Underestimated."

Still haven't read anything about American Communists sending anyone to a gulag, so your screeching has fallen on deaf ears.

After your meds begin to be effective, and you return to reality, let me know.

Until then you're just blithering.

Return to the kitchen, you forgot the pickle.

Still nothing about McCarthy?

And rather than 'overestimated,' let's try 'sorely disappointed.'

But, "... American Communists sending anyone to a gulag,..." let's make it really simple, as it seems that that is what you require: spies don't send anyone to gulags.

Spies prepare for their masters to take over, and the gulags follow.

Are you able to understand the distinction?

Overestimated.

And, I couldn't find the pickles, so I substituted a nordihydrocapsaicin pepper. You may need another beer.

Well, it seems that you're returning to reality.

Now, can you identify ONE SPY that McCarthy found?

I happen to LIKE peppers!!

So you feeble attempt to incapacitate me is foiled again!!

McCarthy’s primary goal was not to expose individual Communists, he was simply demanding of the liberal establishment: Why were they sheltering traitors? It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making when he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy in a key position at the IMF… For decades, people who should not have been allowed anywhere a government job were strolling into sensitive positions with the US government. For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice.

The defending of a clealy guilty Alger Hiss was the reason for Senator McCarthy's campaign. See the OP.

According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist. Moss, in fact, had been “absolutely” identified as a Communist Party member by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, A Conspiracy So Immense). She was listed in the Communist Party’s records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon. At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.

Of course, none of the press looked in the phonebook: there were not three other Annie Lee Moss’- just one. At 72 R Street, SW. The same address listed in the Communist Party records. (Thomas C. Reeves, The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy, p.568-569) Even after the hearings, and the Rosenberg Case, the Army rehired her.
The myth was projected by a Broadway play, A Question of Loyalty, in which a phonebook actually had three Moss’.



Glad you liked the peppers: you look good in red.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

The Senator has been the subject of attack, not because of a kernel of truth in his arguments, but because he exposed the liberals and Democrats as accepting the precepts of Communism, and still do.

If you really and truly think this is why he came under attack, you're sadly mistaken. I also have to question if you're a liberal and authoritarian as a Conservative would understand that the real reason McCarthy came under attack is that he attempted to circumvent the criminal system, criminalize the 5th Ammendment, and add strong authoritative powers to the Federal Government that constituted a threat to the liberty of every man woman and child in the USA.

That isn't an over statement. If McCarthy's actions had gained long term support imagine just how much abuse the current Democratic controlled Senate and House could hand out to their political opponents.

There's a reason that McCarthy's actions are villified. Namely, even if he found a few Communists (and even a blind squirrel finds a nut if they look hard enough), he violated our long standing traditions and notions of justice to do so.

People that support McCarthyism ARE NOT CONSERVATIVES and have no room to claim to be so. Supporting un-Constitutional expansions of power at the Federal level make you a neocon.

 

[Ravi]

Let me tell you a big lie...

 

[Dr.Traveler]

According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist. Moss, in fact, had been “absolutely” identified as a Communist Party member by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, A Conspiracy So Immense). She was listed in the Communist Party’s records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon. At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.

Of course, none of the press looked in the phonebook: there were not three other Annie Lee Moss’- just one. At 72 R Street, SW. The same address listed in the Communist Party records. (Thomas C. Reeves, The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy, p.568-569) Even after the hearings, and the Rosenberg Case, the Army rehired her.
The myth was projected by a Broadway play, A Question of Loyalty, in which a phonebook actually had three Moss’.

Provide proof she broke the law.

 

[Ravi]

According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist. Moss, in fact, had been “absolutely” identified as a Communist Party member by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, A Conspiracy So Immense). She was listed in the Communist Party’s records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon. At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.

Of course, none of the press looked in the phonebook: there were not three other Annie Lee Moss’- just one. At 72 R Street, SW. The same address listed in the Communist Party records. (Thomas C. Reeves, The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy, p.568-569) Even after the hearings, and the Rosenberg Case, the Army rehired her.
The myth was projected by a Broadway play, A Question of Loyalty, in which a phonebook actually had three Moss’.

Provide proof she broke the law.

PC dreams of a day when proving someone is a liberal makes them guilty of a crime.

In her mind, anyone that every belonged to the CP should be shot.