The Stolen Land Of Iran

[MJB12741]

I already acknowledged the short period of intolerance by Zoroastrian priests. So whats your point?

Your second comment on liking the Sassanians as a model for Arab rule is absurd. And yes, please send me your source of this comment.

With all due respect, you really need to bone up on Persian history. There was no "caste system" among the Acamenids, Aracids (Parthians) or Sassanians.

They absolutely had social hierarchies (four main social classifications). Not sure why you keep mixing them with religion though. It didn't really have as much to do with it outside of the priest class.

(approximately 225-270 C.E. there was intolerance toward other religions in Persia. This ended with the rule of Yazdagird I, in or around 340 C.E. & except for this period the Persians (before the Muslim invasion of Persia) were always the most tolerant rulers of empire in the history of the world.

Except when the Zoroastrian priests were able to periodically convince the rulers to persecute Christians due to Christianity being the official religion of the Byzantines with whom they were at war.


Don't get me wrong, I rather like the Sassanian Empire, and it was a very important model for the early Arab Empire, particularly under the Umayyads who largely adopted their bureaucratic, religious, and military organization models and mixed them with Byzantine and Greek economic models, but ignoring the problems that the Sassanian faced, particularly with regards to the cultural issues that existed between the Persian stronghold and its periphery (like Iraq) doesn't allow for a very good understanding of history. I could site you book sources if you'd like.

I also find it interesting how you've conveniently ignored all of the other variables and focused instead on only this one.

 

[Osomir]

Your second comment on liking the Sassanians as a model for Arab rule is absurd. And yes, please send me your source of this comment.

You find it absurd that I would appreciate their bureaucratic structures? As for the important role that such structures played in the early Arab Empire I'd point you to: A History of the Muslim World to 1405 by Vernon O. Egger Pages 47 - 49 and 52 - 54.

The Arab Empire was too religiously and culturally diverse to attempt to adopt the Byzantines strict social and religious bureaucratic model and their invasion of Iraq landed them with large contingents of former Sassanian troops who had decided to defect making military integration much needed and practical.

It would have been impossible for the Rashidun to spread their power so quickly if local structures were demolished when conquering new territory rather than adapted and co-opted.

 

[MJB12741]

I cannot access the pages you refer to. I think I may have read that book. If I recall correctly, much of it focused on why the Muslims are too screwed up to act in unity within their own religion. On that note I certainly agree.

Your second comment on liking the Sassanians as a model for Arab rule is absurd. And yes, please send me your source of this comment.

You find it absurd that I would appreciate their bureaucratic structures? As for the important role that such structures played in the early Arab Empire I'd point you to: A History of the Muslim World to 1405 by Vernon O. Egger Pages 47 - 49 and 52 - 54.

The Arab Empire was too religiously and culturally diverse to attempt to adopt the Byzantines strict social and religious bureaucratic model and their invasion of Iraq landed them with large contingents of former Sassanian troops who had decided to defect making military integration much needed and practical.

It would have been impossible for the Rashidun to spread their power so quickly if local structures were demolished when conquering new territory rather than adapted and co-opted.

 

[kiwina]

Don't forget what Genghis and the Khans did to the Iranian Muslims.

what he did to every oneelse, big deal, it is what the islamics did to every one they could get their hands on from northern France to the Philiphines. I just wounder why islamics are so full of self pitty and have no self disipline and are always accusing others of what they do them selves.

 

[kiwina]

Your second comment on liking the Sassanians as a model for Arab rule is absurd. And yes, please send me your source of this comment.

You find it absurd that I would appreciate their bureaucratic structures? As for the important role that such structures played in the early Arab Empire I'd point you to: A History of the Muslim World to 1405 by Vernon O. Egger Pages 47 - 49 and 52 - 54.

The Arab Empire was too religiously and culturally diverse to attempt to adopt the Byzantines strict social and religious bureaucratic model and their invasion of Iraq landed them with large contingents of former Sassanian troops who had decided to defect making military integration much needed and practical.

It would have been impossible for the Rashidun to spread their power so quickly if local structures were demolished when conquering new territory rather than adapted and co-opted.

so you admitt that religon was used as an excuse to conqure lands and to bring others under their trible goverment in sted of having an orderly govermental system?

 

[Osomir]

so you admitt that religon was used as an excuse to conqure lands and to bring others under their trible goverment in sted of having an orderly govermental system?

No, you obviously haven't been following the conversation at all.

 

[Osomir]

I cannot access the pages you refer to. I think I may have read that book. If I recall correctly, much of it focused on why the Muslims are too screwed up to act in unity within their own religion. On that note I certainly agree.

It certainly touches on a lot of the different factions and divisions that have existed within the various Arab and Islamic empires and the initial empire building of the Rashidun and Umayyads. The notion of Islamic unity has always been a myth, even during the issue that we are talking about (the conquering of Persia) two caliphs were assassinated (Umar and Uthman) and civil war broke out within the Arab Empire (which would see the establishment of the Umayyad Dynasty).

But it also discusses the important roles that outside cultures and structures played in the various empire buildings of Islamic populations. Chief among them in the early years when the empire was more Arab than Islamic was the Sassanian Empire's religious, military, and governance institutional structures, and the commercial and philosophical infrastructure of the Byzantines and Greeks.

 

[Roudy]

Your second comment on liking the Sassanians as a model for Arab rule is absurd. And yes, please send me your source of this comment.

You find it absurd that I would appreciate their bureaucratic structures? As for the important role that such structures played in the early Arab Empire I'd point you to: A History of the Muslim World to 1405 by Vernon O. Egger Pages 47 - 49 and 52 - 54.

The Arab Empire was too religiously and culturally diverse to attempt to adopt the Byzantines strict social and religious bureaucratic model and their invasion of Iraq landed them with large contingents of former Sassanian troops who had decided to defect making military integration much needed and practical.

It would have been impossible for the Rashidun to spread their power so quickly if local structures were demolished when conquering new territory rather than adapted and co-opted.

Whatever system the Sassanian monarchy had, it was far better and tolerant than the oppression, savagery and barbarism that the Arab Islamic invaders brought with their swords of Islam.

Iran was never the same after the Islamic invasion. Many if not most Iranians yearn for the pre Arab Islamic era. In fact some actually speak a Farsi void of any Arabic words, as a way to respect Persian culture and traditions, before the Arab invasion.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I don't understand the point of this article.

There is no article. The OP is words of a poster who hates Iran.

 

[Roudy]

The only possible caste system in ancient Persia existed around 1000 BCE according to the Persian poet Ferdowsi in his Shahnameh. And let us not forget the indigenous Persian connection to the Rig Veda.

This was short lived. And after the split between the Aryian Hindus & Zoroastrians, there has never been a caste system in Persia.

The caste system was still in place when the Muslim armies invaded, and it even remained unofficially after the Sassanian empire was no more. It took a while for it to diminish, which was usually coupled with religious conversion to Islam.

Suggesting there wasn't one is historically inaccurate.

You mean forced religious conversions. After all, that's what the Arab invasions were all about. Spreading Islam at the tip of the sword.

 

[Osomir]

You mean forced religious conversions. After all, that's what the Arab invasions were all about. Spreading Islam at the tip of the sword.

No. Islam was a minority religion in the Arab empire for some time. It would have been impossible for them to expand so fast if they sought forced conversion. Iraq was a majority Christian region for example (second largest religious grouping was Jewish), and they relied on Jewish and christian levies to invade and take over Spain, and Sassanian levies to invade Persia proper.

Having said that there were periods of persecution, particularly in What is now Iran against Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, etc, but even that would eventually end and was driven mostly by the invading generals. Obviously policies can change over time, but the early Empire largely adopted the pluralistic Sassanian model of handling religious diversity.

 

[Osomir]

Whatever system the Sassanian monarchy had, it was far better and tolerant than the oppression, savagery and barbarism that the Arab Islamic invaders brought with their swords of Islam.

Wanting something to be true doesn't make it so.

Iran was never the same after the Islamic invasion. Many if not most Iranians yearn for the pre Arab Islamic era. In fact some actually speak a Farsi void of any Arabic words, as a way to respect Persian culture and traditions, before the Arab invasion.

Persian was used as the administrative language in the region under Arab rule. Greek was also used in the western parts of the empire. The Arabs largely sought, to keep themselves apart from local populations until around the Abbasid Empire which became a little more ethnically pluralistic.

 

[MJB12741]

In no way were Sassanian religious, military & government institutional structures a model for the Arabs except for a very brief period of the theology & reason of the early Mu'tazilites of the Ummayyad caliphate.

Same is true of the commercial and philosophical infrastructure of the Byzantines and Greeks. The creation of the Qur'an ended such rational thinking.

I cannot access the pages you refer to. I think I may have read that book. If I recall correctly, much of it focused on why the Muslims are too screwed up to act in unity within their own religion. On that note I certainly agree.

It certainly touches on a lot of the different factions and divisions that have existed within the various Arab and Islamic empires and the initial empire building of the Rashidun and Umayyads. The notion of Islamic unity has always been a myth, even during the issue that we are talking about (the conquering of Persia) two caliphs were assassinated (Umar and Uthman) and civil war broke out within the Arab Empire (which would see the establishment of the Umayyad Dynasty).

But it also discusses the important roles that outside cultures and structures played in the various empire buildings of Islamic populations. Chief among them in the early years when the empire was more Arab than Islamic was the Sassanian Empire's religious, military, and governance institutional structures, and the commercial and philosophical infrastructure of the Byzantines and Greeks.

 

[Osomir]

In no way were Sassanian religious, military & government institutional structures a model for the Arabs except for a very brief period of the theology & reason of the early Mu'tazilites of the Ummayyad caliphate.

Same is true of the commercial and philosophical infrastructure of the Byzantines and Greeks. The creation of the Qur'an ended such rational thinking.

Not true, in fact, Greek logic was the foundation of Shariah law compilation in the first place.

 

[MJB12741]

There were however NON ARAB early Muslim philosophers who were influenced by Greek logic & philosophy such as ibn-Sina (Avicenna) of Persia & ibn-Rushed (Averroes) of Spain. These men were praised & admired by both Jewish & Christian philosophers. But the Qur'an made such logic heresy & it was soon abolished in all of Islam throughout all of Arabia & the entire world as well.

In no way were Sassanian religious, military & government institutional structures a model for the Arabs except for a very brief period of the theology & reason of the early Mu'tazilites of the Ummayyad caliphate.

Same is true of the commercial and philosophical infrastructure of the Byzantines and Greeks. The creation of the Qur'an ended such rational thinking.

Not true, in fact, Greek logic was the foundation of Shariah law compilation in the first place.

 

[Osomir]

There were however NON ARAB early Muslim philosophers who were influenced by Greek logic & philosophy such as ibn-Sina (Avicenna) of Persia & ibn-Rushed (Averroes) of Spain. These men were praised & admired by both Jewish & Christian philosophers. But the Qur'an made such logic heresy & it was soon abolished in all of Islam throughout all of Arabia & the entire world as well.

Right, that's why the Islamic Golden Age helped to spark the European Renaissance

You're allowing your dislike of Islam to make you historically dishonest.

 

[MJB12741]

Not true. What am I to do with you? You just don't understand that early Greek influence never was created nor accepted by ARABS as you initially claimed.

As for the golden age of Islam, once again the creation & acceptance of the Qur'an ended it. From the Mu'tazalites to Palestinians. That has been the course of Islamic thinking.

There were however NON ARAB early Muslim philosophers who were influenced by Greek logic & philosophy such as ibn-Sina (Avicenna) of Persia & ibn-Rushed (Averroes) of Spain. These men were praised & admired by both Jewish & Christian philosophers. But the Qur'an made such logic heresy & it was soon abolished in all of Islam throughout all of Arabia & the entire world as well.

Right, that's why the Islamic Golden Age helped to spark the European Renaissance

You're allowing your dislike of Islam to make you historically dishonest.

 

[Osomir]

Not true. What am I to do with you? You just don't understand that early Greek influence never was created nor accepted by ARABS as you initially claimed.

As for the golden age of Islam, once again the creation & acceptance of the Qur'an ended it. From the Mu'tazalites to Palestinians. That has been the course of Islamic thinking.

The Islamic Golden Age occurred long after the creation of the written Quran. You're also ignoring hundreds of years of cultural evolution and interaction and important cultural aspects such as the House of Wisdom.

It's fine if you dislike Islam, but there is no reason why that should make you intellectually dishonest.

Blaming the "Quran" for the empire's decline also ignores major historical events such as the Mongol Invasion, and the fact that the Golden Age didn't end until over 600 years after the Quran was written down. Not sure why you are so desperate to demonize everything Islamic, but it is a little sad.

 

[MJB12741]

Well, do we agree that while other religions advanced in morality & ethics over the ages, Islam regressed?

Not true. What am I to do with you? You just don't understand that early Greek influence never was created nor accepted by ARABS as you initially claimed.

As for the golden age of Islam, once again the creation & acceptance of the Qur'an ended it. From the Mu'tazalites to Palestinians. That has been the course of Islamic thinking.

The Islamic Golden Age occurred long after the creation of the written Quran. You're also ignoring hundreds of years of cultural evolution and interaction and important cultural aspects such as the House of Wisdom.

It's fine if you dislike Islam, but there is no reason why that should make you intellectually dishonest.

Blaming the "Quran" for the empire's decline also ignores major historical events such as the Mongol Invasion, and the fact that the Golden Age didn't end until over 600 years after the Quran was written down. Not sure why you are so desperate to demonize everything Islamic, but it is a little sad.

 

[Osomir]

Well, do we agree that while other religions advanced in morality & ethics over the ages, Islam regressed?

No. Though I will say that theologically speaking I think the institution of Itjihad which was phased out in the 13th and 14th centuries is much needed in order to allow Islam to better adapt to changing times and consensus among its population.