The Socialist Plan

[AVG-JOE]

Apparently.

The Railroad is probably the oldest and largest example of government building something on behalf of the people.

.

On behalf of the "people" ...sort of

Why the Republican Party Elected Lincoln


"From the time he entered politics in 1832, Abraham Lincoln aspired to such a position. That is why he became a Whig, the party of the moneyed elite. Lincoln was one of the most money- and power-hungry politicians in American history.


As soon as he entered the Illinois legislature he led his local delegation in a successful Whig Party effort to appropriate some $12 million in taxpayer subsidies for railroad and canal-building corporations. In his landmark book, Lincoln and the Railroads, first published in 1927 and reprinted in 1981 by Arno Press, John W. Starr, Jr. noted how one of Lincoln’s colleagues in the legislature said "He seemed to be a born politician. We followed his lead . . . " And they followed Lincoln down a road that would nearly bankrupt the state of Illinois. The $12 million was squandered: Almost no projects were completed with it; much of the money was stolen; and the taxpayers of Illinois were put deep into debt for years to come."


.

I hear ya. It's like Ike and his interstate highways, though... what started off as a good tool for the military gets used by the general public and the economy grows productively.

The productive economic success generated by the railroad and the phenomenal economic boom that continues to blossom from investing The Peoples treasure in the interstate highway system is a compelling argument for government investment in both the internet and in access to it.

BS



How to Build a Railroad

Most business historians have assumed that the transcontinental railroads would never have been built without government subsidies. The free market would have failed to provide the adequate capital, or so the theory asserts. The evidence for this theory is that the Union Pacific and Central Pacific railroads, which were completed in the years after the War Between the States, received per-mile subsidies from the federal government in the form of low-interest loans as well as massive land grants. But there need not be cause and effect here: the subsidies were not needed to cause the transcontinental railroads to be built. We know this because, just as many roads and canals were privately financed in the early nineteenth century, a market entrepreneur built his own transcontinental railroad. James J. Hill built the Great Northern Railroad "without any government aid, even the right of way, through hundreds of miles of public lands, being paid for in cash," as Hill himself stated.[2]

The project simply required too much capital before any profit could be realized, so the rich folks of the day turned to the tool of government to make it happen.

In other words, there weren't going to be enough paying customers. That's another way to say it was a boondoggle.

Dude... that's kind of the point.

If enough paying customers were willing to buy tickets 5 to 7 years in advance, the private interests would have started the cash-flow flowing on their own.

Government is a necessary tool when the profit margin must be thin for efficiency, such as for roads and sewer systems and for fledgling industry which requires a LOT of investment up front.

It's a good thing that this country was built by men and women with vision instead of the TEA party, eh?

 

[eagle1462010]

 

[AVG-JOE]

Referencing Denmark, Sweden, and Finland will not turn Americans into tall, blond and law-abiding citizens anymore than it'll make us a social democracy.

And that's by far the biggest sticking point I have with his goal.

I don't know how we cram our bizarre, decaying culture into that model.
.

The ANSWER, of course, remains a fair and simple tax code coupled with as much transparency in spending as can be had by whatever passes for 'current technology'.

*SIGH* ​

 

[Meathead]

It's a good thing that this country was built by men and women with vision instead of the TEA party, eh?

The founding fathers were indeed the Tea Party of the day and everything they did to limit the roll of government was consistent with Tea Party policies. Where do you think the Tea Party got it's name from?

Sorry, that's a patently stupid claim to make.

 

[AVG-JOE]

If we ever tax ourselves fairly, used the tool of government as efficiently as possible for the operation of life's daily bureaucracies and encourage competition in the market place as much as we encourage growth, our spawn will explore the stars.

Profit is never the ONLY reason for a Monkey to be industrious.

 

[Mac1958]

Referencing Denmark, Sweden, and Finland will not turn Americans into tall, blond and law-abiding citizens anymore than it'll make us a social democracy.

And that's by far the biggest sticking point I have with his goal.

I don't know how we cram our bizarre, decaying culture into that model.
.

The ANSWER, of course, remains a fair and simple tax code coupled with as much transparency in spending as can be had by whatever passes for 'current technology'.

*SIGH* ​

Transparency would certainly be helpful.

There is simply no way to trust or act on projections when both the data and calculation methods are drenched in political partisanship.
.

 

[AVG-JOE]

It's a good thing that this country was built by men and women with vision instead of the TEA party, eh?

The founding fathers were indeed the Tea Party of the day and everything they did to limit the roll of government was consistent with Tea Party policies. Where do you think the Tea Party got it's name from?

Sorry, that's a patently stupid claim to make.

Only to the closed-minded, Brother.

Bold vision and bold activity by both the private and the public interests is what built this country, not a bunch of guys screaming "NO!".

 

[eagle1462010]

It's a good thing that this country was built by men and women with vision instead of the TEA party, eh?

The founding fathers were indeed the Tea Party of the day and everything they did to limit the roll of government was consistent with Tea Party policies. Where do you think the Tea Party got it's name from?

Sorry, that's a patently stupid claim to make.

Only to the closed-minded, Brother.

Bold vision and bold activity by both the private and the public interests is what built this country, not a bunch of guys screaming "NO!".

Parents go to store..............kid's keep saying I WANT I WANT I WANT..........Parents say NO.............WE CAN'T AFFORD IT..............

Liberals are like these kids...........as are the RINO'S who are so far up their corporate sponsors ass that we see the politicians when they smile.........

We are 18 Trillion in debt and growing...............Our Federal Gov't spends more a year than the GDP of the next largest country in the world....................we cannot continue this path without destroying ourselves..........................

TO more Federal Spending....................NO is the correct answer.....................deal with the debt and save the future for our children and their children...........the answer is NOT MORE GOV'T................the answer is LESS GOV'T...................

That is the TEA PARTY'S POSITION.............and they are SPOT ON....................

I support the TEA PARTY and LIMITED GOV'T as PRESCRIBED by the ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION................Unless we turn this around we WILL BE FACING AUSTERITY MEASURES that will be more painful in the future................

The Founding Fathers gave the POWER OF THE PURSE to the PEOPLE'S HOUSE......................FOR A REASON............to stop a RECKLESS GOV'T from spending our country down the drain..................

In the 90's, our Gov't shut down several times.................. We are still here, and the world didn't end...............and the result was nearly a balanced budget for the 1st time in Decades................Later, AFTER BEING FORCED TO DO SO, Clinton and the Dems took credit for what they were FORCED TO DO.......................

Live within our means, and stop NEW SPENDING, until we get our Finances in order................If that means shutting down the Gov't then so be it................

NO MEANS NO.................NO MAS..............to the Mexifornia crowd....................and I have no problem to say NO to a bunch of SPOILED LIBERAL BRATS who think the Gov't is there to pay for everything they desire.................

Tell the kids NO...............WE CAN'T AFFORD IT.............and if they pitch a fit...........paddle their spoiled butts.

Have a nice day................

 

[Meathead]

It's a good thing that this country was built by men and women with vision instead of the TEA party, eh?

The founding fathers were indeed the Tea Party of the day and everything they did to limit the roll of government was consistent with Tea Party policies. Where do you think the Tea Party got it's name from?

Sorry, that's a patently stupid claim to make.

Only to the closed-minded, Brother.

Bold vision and bold activity by both the private and the public interests is what built this country, not a bunch of guys screaming "NO!".

Those who founded this country clearly wanted limited powers of the state, especially at the expense of the individual. Taxes are clearly necessary, but the state's ability to tax should be limited within reason.

Again, it was a patently stupid thing to say.

 

[eagle1462010]

Government - Interest Expense on the Debt Outstanding

Interest on the debt
This fiscal year...............402 Billion
2014..............430 BILLION
2013..............415 BILLION...........

The debt ceiling was reached back in March..............the Gov't has been cooking the books since then..........waiting to the last minute in primaries to save us all...............................

All being played out by script............for political reasons.............as candidates throw more cookies into the shopping cart wanting more..............with no danged way to pay for it..........................destroying the dollar, our economy, and our economic future.................

Hey Socialist.............put the cookies back on the shelf...............we can't afford it............you bunch of spoiled little brats.................RINO's do the same.

 

[Freiheit]

Were the County Poor Houses socialism?

If they were funded with tax money, yes they were.

You and those who agree with you are nothing if not ignorant. Define socialism.

 

[Wildman]

...democratic party as THEY call themselves.

"THEY" do not know what to call themselves, one time "THEY" call themselves "democRATS" then in the next breath "THEY" call themselves "democRATic", "THEY" do not know "THEY" want to be..., but i know what "THEY" truly are..., COMMIES!!

 

[Wildman]

Thoughts?

my thinking is that he is insane as are all commies and socialist scumbags. witness the many whom are right here on USMB!!

 

[bripat9643]

On behalf of the "people" ...sort of

Why the Republican Party Elected Lincoln


"From the time he entered politics in 1832, Abraham Lincoln aspired to such a position. That is why he became a Whig, the party of the moneyed elite. Lincoln was one of the most money- and power-hungry politicians in American history.


As soon as he entered the Illinois legislature he led his local delegation in a successful Whig Party effort to appropriate some $12 million in taxpayer subsidies for railroad and canal-building corporations. In his landmark book, Lincoln and the Railroads, first published in 1927 and reprinted in 1981 by Arno Press, John W. Starr, Jr. noted how one of Lincoln’s colleagues in the legislature said "He seemed to be a born politician. We followed his lead . . . " And they followed Lincoln down a road that would nearly bankrupt the state of Illinois. The $12 million was squandered: Almost no projects were completed with it; much of the money was stolen; and the taxpayers of Illinois were put deep into debt for years to come."


.

I hear ya. It's like Ike and his interstate highways, though... what started off as a good tool for the military gets used by the general public and the economy grows productively.

The productive economic success generated by the railroad and the phenomenal economic boom that continues to blossom from investing The Peoples treasure in the interstate highway system is a compelling argument for government investment in both the internet and in access to it.

BS



How to Build a Railroad

Most business historians have assumed that the transcontinental railroads would never have been built without government subsidies. The free market would have failed to provide the adequate capital, or so the theory asserts. The evidence for this theory is that the Union Pacific and Central Pacific railroads, which were completed in the years after the War Between the States, received per-mile subsidies from the federal government in the form of low-interest loans as well as massive land grants. But there need not be cause and effect here: the subsidies were not needed to cause the transcontinental railroads to be built. We know this because, just as many roads and canals were privately financed in the early nineteenth century, a market entrepreneur built his own transcontinental railroad. James J. Hill built the Great Northern Railroad "without any government aid, even the right of way, through hundreds of miles of public lands, being paid for in cash," as Hill himself stated.[2]

The project simply required too much capital before any profit could be realized, so the rich folks of the day turned to the tool of government to make it happen.

In other words, there weren't going to be enough paying customers. That's another way to say it was a boondoggle.

Dude... that's kind of the point.

If enough paying customers were willing to buy tickets 5 to 7 years in advance, the private interests would have started the cash-flow flowing on their own.

Government is a necessary tool when the profit margin must be thin for efficiency, such as for roads and sewer systems and for fledgling industry which requires a LOT of investment up front.

It's a good thing that this country was built by men and women with vision instead of the TEA party, eh?

Y9u mean like AMTRAK? When is that going to turn a profit? How about all the mass transit systems in the country? Do any of them cover their costs? If a capital investment had a reasonable chance of making money, companies would be lining up to sink their money into it. The transcontinentals had no hope of making money.

You are aware of the fact that all the government subsidized transcontinentals went broke, aren't you?

 

[danielpalos]

First off let me say I am skipping the word democrat for this argument mainly because it's NOT true. Bernie IS a socialist so ANY plan of his follows socialist policy. HIS leadership in the polls and in drawing crowds speaks to the death of the democratic party as THEY call themselves.

Now for the last two weeks socialists they have been telling you just how awful the Trump plan is with it cutting taxes to zero on first jobbers and cutting taxes to newly marrieds so if they are making 50k or less NO taxes. And cutting taxes to the folks that make those new jobs? NEVER in the socialist world.

So lets look at the socialist Sanders Plan shall we?

Okay the source is the Wall Street Journal a paper KNOW for its ability to read and forecast economy fluxes.

18 TRILLION more then DOUBLES existing debt. Where does this money come from? Well about 24% or there about now comes from money we BORROW from China. So if we don't have the money to run things now where is the money then?

It seems that part of the Sanders plan is MISSING. Its kind of important that a plan ANY plan has a fund source right?

FREE Medicare... Nice idea but if NOBODY pays Medicare where do doctors/nurses/hospitals and clinics get their money?

FREE Retirement..... If you don't invest in your OWN retirement who does? And id they DON'T pay into where is theirs? Where is the mystery money coming from?

FREE Infrastructure... roads/highways/electric and water delivered for free? That would be a trick worthy of Harry Houdini. Its just going to appear out of thin air.

FREE College... How are you going to pay the teachers let alone keep the lights on in the buildings? He's NOT saying and he needs to.

FREE Family Leave...Again nice idea but WHO is going to support that family for six months? Where is their rent or utilities bill money coming from? And the car payment/insurance and gas? Whose paying that?

FREE Pension Fund.... Now THIS gets a bit confusing. IF you have FREE retirement FREE education and FREE medical plus FREE Infrastructure what's the pension for?

FREE Jobs Program.... We HAVE a FREE Jobs program, its called the EMPLOYMENT office. So you have your FREE College education but you are still to stupid to scan the paper OR the net? got it.

The Sanders socialist economic plan leaves me with TWO questions.

1, Where is THAT money?

2, Where have I seen a "cradle to grave" plan before?

Thoughts?

Some on the left believe we should simply solve for simple poverty and abolish capitalism's, natural rate of unemployment on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States.

Because, then we really could ethically let the right blame Individuals for staying poor on an at-will basis.

 

[danielpalos]

Were the County Poor Houses socialism?

If they were funded with tax money, yes they were.

You and those who agree with you are nothing if not ignorant. Define socialism.

Using the (other) Peoples' money.

 

[Mac1958]

The Left wants Sweden/Finland and the Right says that the Left wants Cuba.

Kind of difficult to have a conversation when it's on two different tracks.
.

 

[danielpalos]

The Left wants Sweden/Finland and the Right says that the Left wants Cuba.

Kind of difficult to have a conversation when it's on two different tracks.
.

yup; just the right having no better solutions at lower cost, but repeal.

 

[regent]

Were the County Poor Houses socialism?

If they were funded with tax money, yes they were.

You and those who agree with you are nothing if not ignorant. Define socialism.

Socialism is not definable on these boards, socialism is anything a poster wants it to be. If the old poor houses were socialistic, America has had socialism since the Constitution. If helping the poor survive is socialism, is helping business survive, socialism? If so we have had that socialism since the Constitution also.
The greatest boon to the Republican party was when Marx added another form of socialism to the list of the various types of socialism, Scientific Socialism. Then Republicans could take up the chant "socialism leads to communism."

 

[AVG-JOE]

I hear ya. It's like Ike and his interstate highways, though... what started off as a good tool for the military gets used by the general public and the economy grows productively.

The productive economic success generated by the railroad and the phenomenal economic boom that continues to blossom from investing The Peoples treasure in the interstate highway system is a compelling argument for government investment in both the internet and in access to it.

BS



How to Build a Railroad

Most business historians have assumed that the transcontinental railroads would never have been built without government subsidies. The free market would have failed to provide the adequate capital, or so the theory asserts. The evidence for this theory is that the Union Pacific and Central Pacific railroads, which were completed in the years after the War Between the States, received per-mile subsidies from the federal government in the form of low-interest loans as well as massive land grants. But there need not be cause and effect here: the subsidies were not needed to cause the transcontinental railroads to be built. We know this because, just as many roads and canals were privately financed in the early nineteenth century, a market entrepreneur built his own transcontinental railroad. James J. Hill built the Great Northern Railroad "without any government aid, even the right of way, through hundreds of miles of public lands, being paid for in cash," as Hill himself stated.[2]

The project simply required too much capital before any profit could be realized, so the rich folks of the day turned to the tool of government to make it happen.

In other words, there weren't going to be enough paying customers. That's another way to say it was a boondoggle.

Dude... that's kind of the point.

If enough paying customers were willing to buy tickets 5 to 7 years in advance, the private interests would have started the cash-flow flowing on their own.

Government is a necessary tool when the profit margin must be thin for efficiency, such as for roads and sewer systems and for fledgling industry which requires a LOT of investment up front.

It's a good thing that this country was built by men and women with vision instead of the TEA party, eh?

Y9u mean like AMTRAK? When is that going to turn a profit? How about all the mass transit systems in the country? Do any of them cover their costs? If a capital investment had a reasonable chance of making money, companies would be lining up to sink their money into it. The transcontinentals had no hope of making money.

You are aware of the fact that all the government subsidized transcontinentals went broke, aren't you?

Of course. But not before they were used to line the pockets of a few industrialists with enough spare change for some serious lobbying.

Do you really thinks that things were somehow different back then, and the investment class was altruistic in their goals?

That's funny.