The Socialist Plan

[bripat9643]

If the American people want a socialist program and are willing to pay for it is that OK?

Apparently.

The Railroad is probably the oldest and largest example of government building something on behalf of the people.

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On behalf of the "people" ...sort of

Why the Republican Party Elected Lincoln


"From the time he entered politics in 1832, Abraham Lincoln aspired to such a position. That is why he became a Whig, the party of the moneyed elite. Lincoln was one of the most money- and power-hungry politicians in American history.


As soon as he entered the Illinois legislature he led his local delegation in a successful Whig Party effort to appropriate some $12 million in taxpayer subsidies for railroad and canal-building corporations. In his landmark book, Lincoln and the Railroads, first published in 1927 and reprinted in 1981 by Arno Press, John W. Starr, Jr. noted how one of Lincoln’s colleagues in the legislature said "He seemed to be a born politician. We followed his lead . . . " And they followed Lincoln down a road that would nearly bankrupt the state of Illinois. The $12 million was squandered: Almost no projects were completed with it; much of the money was stolen; and the taxpayers of Illinois were put deep into debt for years to come."


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I hear ya. It's like Ike and his interstate highways, though... what started off as a good tool for the military gets used by the general public and the economy grows productively.

The productive economic success generated by the railroad and the phenomenal economic boom that continues to blossom from investing The Peoples treasure in the interstate highway system is a compelling argument for government investment in both the internet and in access to it.

BS



How to Build a Railroad

Most business historians have assumed that the transcontinental railroads would never have been built without government subsidies. The free market would have failed to provide the adequate capital, or so the theory asserts. The evidence for this theory is that the Union Pacific and Central Pacific railroads, which were completed in the years after the War Between the States, received per-mile subsidies from the federal government in the form of low-interest loans as well as massive land grants. But there need not be cause and effect here: the subsidies were not needed to cause the transcontinental railroads to be built. We know this because, just as many roads and canals were privately financed in the early nineteenth century, a market entrepreneur built his own transcontinental railroad. James J. Hill built the Great Northern Railroad "without any government aid, even the right of way, through hundreds of miles of public lands, being paid for in cash," as Hill himself stated.[2]

The project simply required too much capital before any profit could be realized, so the rich folks of the day turned to the tool of government to make it happen.

In other words, there weren't going to be enough paying customers. That's another way to say it was a boondoggle.

 

[bripat9643]

If the parasites could afford the free stuff they demand , they would not be trading their souls with the devil.

Define 'souls' and 'devil' in this context.

Please.

PARASITES those who demand that the government feed them, clothe them, insure them, provide them free education , invade the country du jour or chase the latest War Party boogeyman.

The devil " Those politicians who have swore to defend and support the gargantuan welfare/warfare police state.


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I didn't ask for a definition of 'parasites', but thanks, very thorough.

What peaks my curiosity is what you mean by 'souls'.

What is this mystery thing that can be traded like a commodity?

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The VOTE - parasites vote early and often.


What set of "principles" would motivate an AMERICAN to vote for an avowed socialist candidate like Comrade Bernard Sanders.


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"I want free stuff" isn't a principle.

 

[bripat9643]

What you call Sanders' 'socialist' agenda, point by point, is more popular with the American people than the average rightwing anti-socialist agenda.

That IS Sanders platform RETARD. NOT what I am calling it what HE is calling it idiot. Do you DENY Sanders is a socialist? HE says He is.

Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist. Is it OK is we call the new Far Right group in Congress Fascists?

Fascists are people who like big government, so that would describe the Dims as well.

 

[bripat9643]

Were the County Poor Houses socialism?

If they were funded with tax money, yes they were.

 

[Political Junky]

JFK lowered the highest tax bracket's taxes by 21%. What a right-wing loon! Didn't he know that the rich needed to pay their "fair share"?

He reduced it from a high of 92% under Eisenhower [R].
top tax rate during eisenhower administration - Google Search
During the administration of Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower, a 92 percent marginal income tax rate for top earners in the United States remained from the previous administration of Harry S. Truman. At the time, the highest tax bracket was for income over $400,000.Jan 24, 2011

 

[bripat9643]

JFK lowered the highest tax bracket's taxes by 21%. What a right-wing loon! Didn't he know that the rich needed to pay their "fair share"?

He reduced it from a high of 92% under Eisenhower [R].
top tax rate during eisenhower administration - Google Search
During the administration of Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower, a 92 percent marginal income tax rate for top earners in the United States remained from the previous administration of Harry S. Truman. At the time, the highest tax bracket was for income over $400,000.Jan 24, 2011

But, but, but . . . . I thought you guys were saying those 90% tax rates were responsible for our prosperity.

 

[The Rabbi]

JFK lowered the highest tax bracket's taxes by 21%. What a right-wing loon! Didn't he know that the rich needed to pay their "fair share"?

He reduced it from a high of 92% under Eisenhower [R].
top tax rate during eisenhower administration - Google Search
During the administration of Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower, a 92 percent marginal income tax rate for top earners in the United States remained from the previous administration of Harry S. Truman. At the time, the highest tax bracket was for income over $400,000.Jan 24, 2011

But, but, but . . . . I thought you guys were saying those 90% tax rates were responsible for our prosperity.

This little gem has been debunked almost every week in the years since I've been on this board. And it still gets repeated every week.
There was no 90% tax rate. No one paid that because the deductions you could take were enormous. Reagan closed all those loopholes in exchange for lower tax rates. And that change led to unprecedented prosperity through the Clinton era, when he added more categories to the tax code. This helped destroy the Reagan-induced prosperity we had.
Anyway, Sanders' plan is clearly socialism of the Danish kind. And it is unsustainable. We've seen the same kinds of people offering the same kinds of promises with plans to get "the rich" to pay for it over and over. Most recently Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. His program was so successful you cannot find toilet paper in Caracas to buy.

 

[Jantje_Smit]

How many years does this cover?

How many years does this cover?

At this point like the funding he has not said.

If it is not known how many years this would cover how can the WSJ calculate how much it would cost?

 

[Kosh]

What you call Sanders' 'socialist' agenda, point by point, is more popular with the American people than the average rightwing anti-socialist agenda.

That IS Sanders platform RETARD. NOT what I am calling it what HE is calling it idiot. Do you DENY Sanders is a socialist? HE says He is.

He's a democratic socialist. The best position anyone can have in the 21st century.

A far left drone admiring a far left politician, imagine that!

 

[DarkFury]

How many years does this cover?

How many years does this cover?

At this point like the funding he has not said.

If it is not known how many years this would cover how can the WSJ calculate how much it would cost?

Sanders has stated the cost, just not how to pay for it or how quick he wants all that cash. But you figure we are 17 trillion in debt over two hundred years and his plan to double it would HAVE to happen in eight or less.

That is one hell of a lot of money we DON'T have.

 

[Jantje_Smit]

That is one hell of a lot of money we DON'T have.

You didn't have $trillions to liberate the Iraqi oil fields either, but I guess it's only a problem when $$$ is needed for useless things like healthcare, education, pensions etc.

 

[Disir]

How many years does this cover?

How many years does this cover?

At this point like the funding he has not said.

If it is not known how many years this would cover how can the WSJ calculate how much it would cost?

The WSJ has already been disputed. It was nothing more than a scare tactic.
Bernie Sanders disputes WSJ claim of $18 trillion in new spending

 

[Meathead]

How many years does this cover?

How many years does this cover?

At this point like the funding he has not said.

If it is not known how many years this would cover how can the WSJ calculate how much it would cost?

The WSJ has already been disputed. It was nothing more than a scare tactic.
Bernie Sanders disputes WSJ claim of $18 trillion in new spending

That's $18,000 billion! This is why America cannot possibly afford it and Bernie cannot possibly win.

There are some 400 billionaires who can generously be said to average $2 billion each. If the government were to seize their entire fortunes, that would leave $17,200 billion for the rest of us.

 

[Mac1958]

How many years does this cover?

The WSJ article has been repeatedly debunked.

When the only "argument" one side has is Photoshop, it should give you a clue to their credibility.

If speculation debunks speculation then yes you are correct. The most I got out of the debunking was no it won't cost 18 Trillion the cost will be closer to 10 Trillion where would either increase come from?
After a 75 year experiment with socialism the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics failed and converted to a market economy, after an almost 50 year experiment with socialism Eastern European states converted to market economies. There are in fact 4 socialist states extant:
The Lao Peoples Democratic Republic
The Republic of Cuba
Peoples Republic of China
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Which one should the US emulate?
If socialism were such a marvelous system why is it not used to govern most states on the planet.

Sanders has made it clear that what he is after is a social democracy, not pure socialism, so the answer to your question is "none of the above".

He has often referenced Sweden, Denmark, Finland.

That's certainly a debatable goal, but he's not trying to turn us into Cuba.
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[Mac1958]

How many years does this cover?

How many years does this cover?

At this point like the funding he has not said.

If it is not known how many years this would cover how can the WSJ calculate how much it would cost?

Turns out it's 10 years. Salon says it's more like $10T: The Wall Street Journal gets whacked: How its Bernie Sanders hit piece completely backfired - Salon.com
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[Programmer]

Forgive the fantasy spending. Imagine the skyrocketing unemployment after doubling the minimum wage.

 

[Meathead]

How many years does this cover?

The WSJ article has been repeatedly debunked.

When the only "argument" one side has is Photoshop, it should give you a clue to their credibility.

If speculation debunks speculation then yes you are correct. The most I got out of the debunking was no it won't cost 18 Trillion the cost will be closer to 10 Trillion where would either increase come from?
After a 75 year experiment with socialism the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics failed and converted to a market economy, after an almost 50 year experiment with socialism Eastern European states converted to market economies. There are in fact 4 socialist states extant:
The Lao Peoples Democratic Republic
The Republic of Cuba
Peoples Republic of China
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Which one should the US emulate?
If socialism were such a marvelous system why is it not used to govern most states on the planet.

Sanders has made it clear that what he is after is a social democracy, not pure socialism, so the answer to your question is "none of the above".

He has often referenced Sweden, Denmark, Finland.

That's certainly a debatable goal, but he's not trying to turn us into Cuba.
.

Whoa there! Hang on. Cuba is a Republic and North Korea is a Democracy. I know this because they are thus named just as Sanders has named himself a Democrat.

Referencing Denmark, Sweden, and Finland will not turn Americans into tall, blond and law-abiding citizens anymore than it'll make us a social democracy.

 

[Meathead]

How many years does this cover?

How many years does this cover?

At this point like the funding he has not said.

If it is not known how many years this would cover how can the WSJ calculate how much it would cost?

Turns out it's 10 years. Salon says it's more like $10T: The Wall Street Journal gets whacked: How its Bernie Sanders hit piece completely backfired - Salon.com
.

Hmm, so we've got Salon on one hand and the Wall Street Journal on the other. A real tough one there Mac!

 

[Mac1958]

Referencing Denmark, Sweden, and Finland will not turn Americans into tall, blond and law-abiding citizens anymore than it'll make us a social democracy.

And that's by far the biggest sticking point I have with his goal.

I don't know how we cram our bizarre, decaying culture into that model.
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[Mac1958]

How many years does this cover?

How many years does this cover?

At this point like the funding he has not said.

If it is not known how many years this would cover how can the WSJ calculate how much it would cost?

Turns out it's 10 years. Salon says it's more like $10T: The Wall Street Journal gets whacked: How its Bernie Sanders hit piece completely backfired - Salon.com
.

Hmm, so we've got Salon on one hand and the Wall Street Journal on the other. A real tough one there Mac!

Well, truth be told, I wouldn't believe either until I saw the calculations and methods used.

Folks who do that stuff love using static analysis instead of dynamic analysis because they have an agenda.

The actual net figure could be $5T or $25T, for all I know.
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