The single biggest thing that Bush's wars accomplished

[Charles_Main]

I mentioned the "homeland attack" thing not becuase 9-11 was related to Iraq...I mentioned it becuase we, as a country, realized that we ARE vulnerable to outside attacks...and that we can no longer sit idly by and assume that a threat is not really a threat.

Me? I saw Iraq as a threat based on the intel that we heard about including the intel from other countries. Likewise, Hussein was most certianly acting suspiciously.

And after spending 9-12 to 9-14 diggin through dust and re-bar, I was convinced that we are vulnerable to attacks form people that hate us.

Until that day? I never thought a homeland attack was possible.

Keeping things in proper perspective, how much thought have you given to the reason for the 9/11 attack? And I'll assume you know it was not because ". . . they hate our freedom."

You are right they did not attack us because of our freedom. They attacked us because they see us as the leader of the Non Muslim world. In a word they attacked us because we are infidels who dared to have some troops in Saudi.

 

[Jarhead]

I mentioned the "homeland attack" thing not becuase 9-11 was related to Iraq...I mentioned it becuase we, as a country, realized that we ARE vulnerable to outside attacks...and that we can no longer sit idly by and assume that a threat is not really a threat.

Me? I saw Iraq as a threat based on the intel that we heard about including the intel from other countries. Likewise, Hussein was most certianly acting suspiciously.

And after spending 9-12 to 9-14 diggin through dust and re-bar, I was convinced that we are vulnerable to attacks form people that hate us.

Until that day? I never thought a homeland attack was possible.

Keeping things in proper perspective, how much thought have you given to the reason for the 9/11 attack? And I'll assume you know it was not because ". . . they hate our freedom."

You and I have different ideologies so whereas I do not always understand why you may think what you think, I respect you for your convictions, and I respect your right to feel and say as you do.

I was a second responder and spent 12 hours on and 12 hours off for three days....starting at 6AM on 9-12. I had plenty of time to try to figure out why they did what they did. And ot be frank, per my way of thinking, there is no rational reason for them to have done what they did. To want to harm us? I am sure they have plenty of reasons. One for sure is the light of the Palestinaians. A culture that was tossed form their land and no one would listen when they cried out "why us"....I am a Jew and I respect what those people have gone through and I feel for them. But I do not understand their tactics (albeit, they believed it was the only way to be heard)....But for Al queda to do what they did...in my eyes...there is no valid reason and I gave up trying to rationalize it on 9-14-2001.

I do not care what anyone else has to say as to why they did it. There is no excuse for it. We did not attack them and we were not intentionally antoagonizing them. We were not in breach of a cease fire with them and we were not threatening their allies.

What more can I say. 10 years later and I still feel the same.

 

[MikeK]

So I am curious...Lets say the intel was correct and there were weapons of mass destruction. And lets say we did what you wanted and simply said "be a good boy Saddam and do not use those WMD's on anyone but your own people".....and then he attached them to scuds and 100,000 people die in israel...including 30,000 children.
What would you say?

I'll tell you what I would say: Good luck to Israel in its war with Iraq.

What would you say? Let's invade Iraq because Iraq invaded Israel and let's not concern ourselves with the probable cost to us in terms of life, treasure and reputation?

You seem to focus rather heavily on Israel and in at least one of your messages you refer to Israel as our "ally." My understanding of that word is it implies something along the lines of mutual protection. So I'll ask you, what has Israel done for the U.S. lately that we should give a damn about Iraq invading that little theocracy?

So what if Iraq invaded Israel? How would that affect the United States?

 

[Ozmar]

Now that our combat forces are finally out of Iraq, the RepubliCONs want to claim victory. But what have we won? A democracy? Hardly, there was an election in the spring and it has not yet been resolved. It may never be resolved. The rest of our force is scheduled to leave by this time next year.

After we leave we will then find out what kind of country Iraq will be. My guess is that another strongman, another Saddam Hussein will take over. Perhaps another civil war first.

So then what have we accomplished? I mean beyond the trillion dollars spent, the over 4400 dead and tens of thousands of wounded American service people, the over 100,000 killed Iraqis, the millions of displaced Iraqis, the streangthening of Iran into the regional power, the shreading of the American image as "the good duys", what have we accomplished?

What we have demonstrated to the world is the strategic limit of the power of the United States. Dictators the world over now have a model to gauge their actions against. The blow back from this folly will be with us far into the future.

Thank you Nostradamus. We are ever indebted to your foresight.

 

[MikeK]

[You and I have different ideologies so whereas I do not always understand why you may think what you think, I respect you for your convictions, and I respect your right to feel and say as you do.

I was a second responder and spent 12 hours on and 12 hours off for three days....starting at 6AM on 9-12. I had plenty of time to try to figure out why they did what they did. And ot be frank, per my way of thinking, there is no rational reason for them to have done what they did. To want to harm us? I am sure they have plenty of reasons. One for sure is the light of the Palestinaians. A culture that was tossed form their land and no one would listen when they cried out "why us"....I am a Jew and I respect what those people have gone through and I feel for them. But I do not understand their tactics (albeit, they believed it was the only way to be heard)....But for Al queda to do what they did...in my eyes...there is no valid reason and I gave up trying to rationalize it on 9-14-2001.

I do not care what anyone else has to say as to why they did it. There is no excuse for it. We did not attack them and we were not intentionally antoagonizing them. We were not in breach of a cease fire with them and we were not threatening their allies.

What more can I say. 10 years later and I still feel the same.

Way back in 1998 I watched a PBS documentary in which John Miller interviewed a rather gaunt, soft-spoken Arab in a white turban and garment who was seated on the floor of a cave in Afghanistan with an AK-47 propped against the stone wall behind him. The translation of this Arab's words was threatening. He told Miller that the United States had grievously offended the Muslim world in two major ways and if those offenses were not rectified there would be "terrible retaliation."

He said those offenses were the United States' protection and support of Israel's brutally aggressive expansion into the Gaza region, forcing the Palestinians off their land and building settlements, and the placement of an American military base on the holy ground of Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

I listened to the what this strange Arab fellow had to say and I believe my thoughts were something like, a lot the U.S. has to worry about some weird Arab in a cave in Afghanistan, and I promptly forgot about this Usama somebody. But at about 6 PM on September 11, 2001, when the name bin Laden was pronounced on the news the recollection slammed into my mind and left my jaw hanging.

Here is a brief excerpt of that interview, along with a link to the whole thing.


Excerpted from PBS Frontline (John Miller) 1998 interview with Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[. . .]We know at least one reason behind the symbolic participation of the Western forces and that is to support the Zionist plans for expansion of what is called the Greater Israel. Surely, their presence is not out of concern over their interests in the region. ... Their presence has no meaning save one and that is to offer support to the Jews in Palestine who are in need of their Christian brothers to achieve full control over the Arab Peninsula which they intend to make an important part of the so called Greater Israel. ...
frontline: hunting bin laden: who is bin laden?: interview with osama bin laden (in may 1998) | PBS


Shortly after the 9/11 attack Bush pressured Sharon into withdrawing a bank of settlements from the Gaza region and he quietly removed the bin Sultan Air Base from Saudi Arabia. So much for closing the barn door after the horse is gone.


Here's more:

Bin Laden Says Attack On US Is To Stop Support For Israel, 12-27-01:
=========================

LONDON (Reuters) - Osama bin Laden, the world's most wanted man, said on a video broadcast by al-Jazeera satellite television on Wednesday that the September 11 suicide attacks were intended to stop U.S. support for Israel.

"Our terrorism against the United States is worthy of praise to deter the oppressor so that America stop its support for Israel, which is killing our children," the bearded, Saudi-born fugitive said.

He added that the tape was being issued to mark about three months since the attacks on New York and Washington and two months after the United States began its bombing of Afghan targets.

The remarks indicated the tape was recorded in early to mid December.

Looking tired but calm, bin Laden was dressed in a clean, camouflage-patterned combat jacket. He sat against a cloth or canvas screen, his Russian-designed submachinegun propped beside him. There was no indication where he was when he recorded the video.

 

[MikeK]

You are right they did not attack us because of our freedom. They attacked us because they see us as the leader of the Non Muslim world. In a word they attacked us because we are infidels who dared to have some troops in Saudi.

You've got it nearly right.

They attacked us because we are infidels who are and have been in their face for too long. I'm suggesting that if these people are fanatical enough to hijack planes and crash them into our buildings, and fanatical enough to strap bombs to themselves and blow them up in crowded places, maybe we should leave them alone.

They were not bothering us.

 

[Jarhead]

So I am curious...Lets say the intel was correct and there were weapons of mass destruction. And lets say we did what you wanted and simply said "be a good boy Saddam and do not use those WMD's on anyone but your own people".....and then he attached them to scuds and 100,000 people die in israel...including 30,000 children.
What would you say?

I'll tell you what I would say: Good luck to Israel in its war with Iraq.

What would you say? Let's invade Iraq because Iraq invaded Israel and let's not concern ourselves with the probable cost to us in terms of life, treasure and reputation?

You seem to focus rather heavily on Israel and in at least one of your messages you refer to Israel as our "ally." My understanding of that word is it implies something along the lines of mutual protection. So I'll ask you, what has Israel done for the U.S. lately that we should give a damn about Iraq invading that little theocracy?

So what if Iraq invaded Israel? How would that affect the United States?

Whereas you obviously do not believe in commitment, I was brought up and live by the importance of commitment. Our allegience to Israel is not based on what they do or do not do for us. It is based on what we promised we would do for them. If you and others believe that we should discontinue our allegience to their well being, then go right ahead and campaign for it. Until then, I expect my government to adhere to their word.

And as a side not. Putting aside the dictionary definition of the word ally, it has always meant to most that an ally is one that you can count on. Israel has allowed us a sanctuary in a region where others would not. But I have no interest in getting into this debate with you as we are miles apart on one of the most important factors...commitment.

I do not beliueve in war as the first answer. But I also do not belive in tyrants flexing their muscles and walking through countries at their will...regardless of who the country is. As much as I do not appreciate Chavez, if Colunbia decided to invade Venezuela, I would be the first to agree to taking action against columbia.

Seems you would prefer to let them all worry about things themselves as long as it does not have an immediate affect on you.

I call that selffish. You call it appropriate. That makes us 2 individuals that help makes up this country.

Cyas <S>

 

[Jarhead]

You are right they did not attack us because of our freedom. They attacked us because they see us as the leader of the Non Muslim world. In a word they attacked us because we are infidels who dared to have some troops in Saudi.

You've got it nearly right.

They attacked us because we are infidels who are and have been in their face for too long. I'm suggesting that if these people are fanatical enough to hijack planes and crash them into our buildings, and fanatical enough to strap bombs to themselves and blow them up in crowded places, maybe we should leave them alone.

They were not bothering us.

Wow. You are quite naive.
What do you consider "leaving them alone"?
For example....a devout radical Muslim in the US believes in the strictest form of Sharia law and murders his family as he felt they dishonored him as they became way to Westernized...so he is broguht to trial and sent away for life.
Do you truly believe that other radicals will not see the US as interferring in their way of life?
Or should we set him free so as not to "piss them off"?

 

[MikeK]

You are right they did not attack us because of our freedom. They attacked us because they see us as the leader of the Non Muslim world. In a word they attacked us because we are infidels who dared to have some troops in Saudi.

You've got it nearly right.

They attacked us because we are infidels who are and have been in their face for too long. I'm suggesting that if these people are fanatical enough to hijack planes and crash them into our buildings, and fanatical enough to strap bombs to themselves and blow them up in crowded places, maybe we should leave them alone.

They were not bothering us.

Wow. You are quite naive.
What do you consider "leaving them alone"?
For example....a devout radical Muslim in the US believes in the strictest form of Sharia law and murders his family as he felt they dishonored him as they became way to Westernized...so he is broguht to trial and sent away for life.
Do you truly believe that other radicals will not see the US as interferring in their way of life?
Or should we set him free so as not to "piss them off"?

There is one hell of a big difference between some Muslim who has chosen to live in our country but has violated its laws and us supporting Israel's expansion onto Arab territory, and us putting an American Air Force base in Mecca, and us invading and occupying a non-threatening Muslim nation, and us invading and trying to occupy another Muslim nation.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. And as long as we continue to do these things we can expect the occasional 9/11 event.

Leave those people alone!

 

[Jarhead]

You've got it nearly right.

They attacked us because we are infidels who are and have been in their face for too long. I'm suggesting that if these people are fanatical enough to hijack planes and crash them into our buildings, and fanatical enough to strap bombs to themselves and blow them up in crowded places, maybe we should leave them alone.

They were not bothering us.

Wow. You are quite naive.
What do you consider "leaving them alone"?
For example....a devout radical Muslim in the US believes in the strictest form of Sharia law and murders his family as he felt they dishonored him as they became way to Westernized...so he is broguht to trial and sent away for life.
Do you truly believe that other radicals will not see the US as interferring in their way of life?
Or should we set him free so as not to "piss them off"?

There is one hell of a big difference between some Muslim who has chosen to live in our country but has violated its laws and us supporting Israel's expansion onto Arab territory, and us putting an American Air Force base in Mecca, and us invading and occupying a non-threatening Muslim nation, and us invading and trying to occupy another Muslim nation.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. And as long as we continue to do these things we can expect the occasional 9/11 event.

Leave those people alone!

In one post you say imply they are irrational and it is best we leave them alone.

In another post you imply they are rational enough to discerne between what does and what does not deserve retaliation.

I suggest you start to post with a bit more consistancy. It does not help your credibility when you tailor your sentiments to the direction of the debate

Follow your instincts. You are correct. People that fly planes into buildings are irrational. ANYTHING may be deemed as a worthy reason to attack.

You seem to be quite intelligent. Take advantage of it. Dont try to be right. Simply stick to your convictions. You may lose a debate once in a while that way, but You will win a debate more than you lose ......and when you DO lose, you will learn a lot.

 

[MikeK]

In one post you say imply they are irrational and it is best we leave them alone.

In another post you imply they are rational enough to discerne between what does and what does not deserve retaliation.

Your skill at obfuscation is lacking. I never said they are rational or irrational. I said they will sacrifice their own lives to strike at an oppressor. Whether or not that is irrational depends entirely on what church one goes to. To us the bomb vest is irrational, to them it is heroic. Which is why we should leave them alone.

The most dangerous thing in the world is a man or woman who is ready and willing to die.

 

[Jarhead]

In one post you say imply they are irrational and it is best we leave them alone.

In another post you imply they are rational enough to discerne between what does and what does not deserve retaliation.

Your skill at obfuscation is lacking. I never said they are rational or irrational. I said they will sacrifice their own lives to strike at an oppressor. Whether or not that is irrational depends entirely on what church one goes to. To us the bomb vest is irrational, to them it is heroic. Which is why we should leave them alone.

The most dangerous thing in the world is a man or woman who is ready and willing to die.

Whatever floats your boat Mike.

Have a great evening.