The Politics of the "Abortion" Word Games

[Boss]

And, no, the passage of the 13th Amendment doesn't mean that much if it was done at gunpoint and people who had fought for the Confederacy weren't allowed to vote. It was done by force of arms.

It wasn't done at gunpoint. It wasn't done by Fredrick Douglass. It wasn't done by Liberals. It wasn't done by SCOTUS decree upon high. You are still trying to worm your way around your failed point and it's not working, bozo.

You are totally free to establish moral boundries- THAT ONLY APPLY TO YOU.

Uhm... No, I am free to establish moral boundaries that apply to everyone. Remember, we just went over this? Society decides what is reasonable. I am part of society. So if me and society decided we don't think people should run around naked in public, that applies to you whether you agree with the boundary or not. The same applies to aborting fetuses.

No need for an arbitrary line at all. When the woman and her doctor think it's appropriate. That's the only line I need.

But you are not all of society and most of society doesn't agree with you.

 

[Boss]

Science of the time claimed no such thing.

I didn't say science claimed it... I said science was used to claim it and it was.

 

[Boss]

But the bible said Slavery just just peachy with God.

Ridiculous. God makes no such claim in the Bible. This is more of your anti-religious bigotry shining through. The Bible was written for 1st Century Christians in a time where slavery was a fact of life. Aside from some wacko fundamentalist morons, no one used the Bible to condone slavery. The abolition movement was started by Quaker Christians. The whole entire concept of human equality is from The Bible and Christianity.

The legacy of YOUR philosophy is Hitler and the concentration camps. Where "undesirable" humans are exterminated so the superior race can prevail.

 

[JoeB131]

It wasn't done at gunpoint. It wasn't done by Fredrick Douglass. It wasn't done by Liberals. It wasn't done by SCOTUS decree upon high. You are still trying to worm your way around your failed point and it's not working, bozo.

Actually, I pretty much trounced your point. Until the Fetus Army shows up at an abortion clinic, you got nothing.

Ridiculous. God makes no such claim in the Bible. This is more of your anti-religious bigotry shining through. The Bible was written for 1st Century Christians in a time where slavery was a fact of life. Aside from some wacko fundamentalist morons, no one used the Bible to condone slavery. The abolition movement was started by Quaker Christians. The whole entire concept of human equality is from The Bible and Christianity.

actually, the reason why we HAVE a Southern Baptist convention today is because it broke away from the Northern Baptists over- wait for it - SLAVERY.

Uhm... No, I am free to establish moral boundaries that apply to everyone. Remember, we just went over this? Society decides what is reasonable. I am part of society. So if me and society decided we don't think people should run around naked in public, that applies to you whether you agree with the boundary or not. The same applies to aborting fetuses.

Actually, I doubt you even have contact with real people, Urkel.

 

[Boss]

actually, the reason why we HAVE a Southern Baptist convention today is because it broke away from the Northern Baptists over- wait for it - SLAVERY.

Nope. Wrong again, Skippy! The issue was slave owners being ordained as missionaries. Again, the entire abolition movement in the US was started by English Quakers and evangelicals who denounced slavery as unchristian. Please stop ignoring this fact, I've pointed it out twice now.

Actually, I pretty much trounced your point. Until the Fetus Army shows up at an abortion clinic, you got nothing.

You've done no trouncing, little man. I can't even get you to honestly address my points. All you seem to want to do is get on your soapbox and rail against religion. You have demonstrated that you wish to be willfully ignorant of science, abandon any sense of morality or ethics, and defiantly cling to your barbaric political viewpoint and agenda. And you somehow think proclaiming you've "trounced" me is sufficient standard for winning debates. It's amazing a human being can be as stupid as you.

If you really believed the pro-life movement has "got nothing" then you wouldn't be here making a fool of yourself, you'd be off on another thread lamenting the wonders of Utopian Socialism or screaming about Global Warming. Why would you devote time to something you've got in the bag? When you pop off this smug liberal sarcasm I wonder if you believe we're all as stupid and gullible as you are?

 

[JoeB131]

Nope. Wrong again, Skippy! The issue was slave owners being ordained as missionaries. Again, the entire abolition movement in the US was started by English Quakers and evangelicals who denounced slavery as unchristian. Please stop ignoring this fact, I've pointed it out twice now.

The Quakers were a small denomination, and still are. The Southern Baptist Convention is a great big convention, and combined with the Catholics, they were totally good with the slavery.

You've done no trouncing, little man. I can't even get you to honestly address my points. All you seem to want to do is get on your soapbox and rail against religion. You have demonstrated that you wish to be willfully ignorant of science, abandon any sense of morality or ethics, and defiantly cling to your barbaric political viewpoint and agenda. And you somehow think proclaiming you've "trounced" me is sufficient standard for winning debates. It's amazing a human being can be as stupid as you.

Science is meaningless in this sense, guy. It's not a person until the person it's in decides she wants it to be a person. and forty years of dumb-ass bible thumping tools like you carrying placards with pictures of medical waste on them doesn't change anything. It's easy to trounce you because you are generally too stupid to realize what a tool you are.

If you really believed the pro-life movement has "got nothing" then you wouldn't be here making a fool of yourself, you'd be off on another thread lamenting the wonders of Utopian Socialism or screaming about Global Warming. Why would you devote time to something you've got in the bag? When you pop off this smug liberal sarcasm I wonder if you believe we're all as stupid and gullible as you are?

Because I really can't get as much mileage on the GW thread pissing off religious assholes as I can on a gay marriage or aboriton thread.

 

[Boss]

Nope. Wrong again, Skippy! The issue was slave owners being ordained as missionaries. Again, the entire abolition movement in the US was started by English Quakers and evangelicals who denounced slavery as unchristian. Please stop ignoring this fact, I've pointed it out twice now.

The Quakers were a small denomination, and still are. The Southern Baptist Convention is a great big convention, and combined with the Catholics, they were totally good with the slavery.

The Quakers founded the state of Pennsylvania, moron. At the time, I suspect they were a lager worldwide congregation than southern baptists. And no, the Catholics and SBC were not "totally good" with slavery.

Now I tell ya who was "totally good" with slavery, that was the SOTUS and US Congress. They repeatedly upheld the institution and kept it law of the land. The Abolitionists were started by the Quakers and other evangelicals. Don't care if you like that fact, it's a fact.

Science is meaningless in this sense, guy. It's not a person until the person it's in decides she wants it to be a person. and forty years of dumb-ass bible thumping tools like you carrying placards with pictures of medical waste on them doesn't change anything. It's easy to trounce you because you are generally too stupid to realize what a tool you are.

Are you talking about what the current law is on abortion again? I understand women can decide. But that's not right, we don't determine what is a human based on someone deciding. The fetuses are medical waste after they are killed. The placards I see at rallies show human beings in the fetal stage of development. You can call me all kinds of names and make silly arguments that any 5-year-old would dismiss, but you just can't seem to get any traction on that "trouncing" you keep yammering about.

If you really believed the pro-life movement has "got nothing" then you wouldn't be here making a fool of yourself, you'd be off on another thread lamenting the wonders of Utopian Socialism or screaming about Global Warming. Why would you devote time to something you've got in the bag? When you pop off this smug liberal sarcasm I wonder if you believe we're all as stupid and gullible as you are?

Because I really can't get as much mileage on the GW thread pissing off religious assholes as I can on a gay marriage or aboriton thread.

Again, you're not pissing me off a bit. You are showing everyone what an ignoramus you are and that suits me fine. Of course, I am not a religious nut, I don't practice religion. I'm a Spiritualist and I believe in a God, but foremost I believe in human rights. I don't mind that God backs me up on that, it's good to have God in your corner. But I think I would be opposed to abortion on demand regardless of religion because I am a human. I just believe humans deserve the right to live.

You obviously don't share my viewpoint and that's fine, but you don't get to decide for all of society. The rest of us have just as much right as you to make those decisions, and you will obey whatever laws we establish.

As for religious people, let me just say for the record, they have just as much right to hold political offices, write legislation and vote based on their religious influence and there's not a damn thing in the world you can do about that. Its the country you live in and the Constitution you live by. That's why I predict this will eventually be resolved and the unborn will be protected.

 

[JoeB131]

The Quakers founded the state of Pennsylvania, moron. At the time, I suspect they were a lager worldwide congregation than southern baptists. And no, the Catholics and SBC were not "totally good" with slavery.

They absolutely were. SHit, who do you think STARTED the slave trade? It was the Catholic Church. Look up a guy named Bartolome De La Casa. He was the priest who thought it would be a nifty idea to bring Africans over because those damned Native Americans were dying from overwork before they could convert them to Jay-a-zus.

And a stated earlier, the SBC broke off from the Northern Baptists over slavery. Not that the SBC has learned form it's past, with Huckabee calling Beyonce a whore.

Now I tell ya who was "totally good" with slavery, that was the SOTUS and US Congress. They repeatedly upheld the institution and kept it law of the land. The Abolitionists were started by the Quakers and other evangelicals. Don't care if you like that fact, it's a fact.

You mean they made one decision that upheld what the Southern Baptists INSISTED in putting into the Constitution to start with. Sorry, guy, you can try all day, but slavery and abortion aren't the same, and it's kind of insulting to say they are.

Are you talking about what the current law is on abortion again? I understand women can decide. But that's not right, we don't determine what is a human based on someone deciding. The fetuses are medical waste after they are killed. The placards I see at rallies show human beings in the fetal stage of development. You can call me all kinds of names and make silly arguments that any 5-year-old would dismiss, but you just can't seem to get any traction on that "trouncing" you keep yammering about.

The current law and the perpetual reality. Women are going to have abortions no matter what the law is. Always have, always will. And I'm sorry you are such a tool that you are willing to trade away a strong middle class for your religious

stupidity, because, honestly, that probably causes more abortions.

As for religious people, let me just say for the record, they have just as much right to hold political offices, write legislation and vote based on their religious influence and there's not a damn thing in the world you can do about that. Its the country you live in and the Constitution you live by. That's why I predict this will eventually be resolved and the unborn will be protected.

Sure they can. And when they try it, we shove that constitution in their face and say "SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, MOTHER ******!!!!"

 

[Boss]

And a stated earlier, the SBC broke off from the Northern Baptists over slavery.

No they didn't. You repeatedly insisting they did is not getting us anywhere, you need to show some evidence, like maybe a link? Something other than your incessant whining, it's becoming shrill.

They broke from northern Baptists over slave owners not being able to be ordained missionaries. In other words, the Baptists (mostly northerners) had condemned slavery and wouldn't allow members to be missionaries if they owned them... ya gettin any of this, numskull? Doesn't sound like Christians were "totally okay" with it to me. Sounds like they condemned it and thought it was appalling enough that if you were involved in owning slaves you couldn't represent the Church as a missionary.

You mean they made one decision that upheld what the Southern Baptists INSISTED in putting into the Constitution to start with.

Wow... So Southern Baptists were time travelers who leaped from 1845, when they were formed, all the way back to 1776, then they overthrew Congress and packed the courts with Southern Baptists and they made the ruling? ....You're off your nut.

The current law and the perpetual reality. Women are going to have abortions no matter what the law is.

Well murders are going to happen no matter what the laws are, so maybe we shouldn't bother there either? That way, I could pop a cap in your ass for being so annoyingly stupid.

The reality is this, whether you want to face it or not... At some point, abortion laws in America are going to be reformed to consider the rights of the unborn. This is simply not something that, no matter what the circumstance, it should always be up to the woman and doctor alone. It involves another human life. Society will get there through a rational approach, but you're not rational and you won't be calling any of the shots.

 

[JoeB131]

No they didn't. You repeatedly insisting they did is not getting us anywhere, you need to show some evidence, like maybe a link? Something other than your incessant whining, it's becoming shrill.

They broke from northern Baptists over slave owners not being able to be ordained missionaries. In other words, the Baptists (mostly northerners) had condemned slavery and wouldn't allow members to be missionaries if they owned them... ya gettin any of this, numskull? Doesn't sound like Christians were "totally okay" with it to me. Sounds like they condemned it and thought it was appalling enough that if you were involved in owning slaves you couldn't represent the Church as a missionary.

So when was the last time we heard from "NOrthern Baptists"? Oh, that's right. We haven't.

Well murders are going to happen no matter what the laws are, so maybe we shouldn't bother there either? That way, I could pop a cap in your ass for being so annoyingly stupid.

The thing is, most people would agree murders are a bad thing.
You'd never get that kind of agreement on abortion, especially in the first trimester when 99% of them are performed.

Guy, you keep trying to make silly points to uphold your position. Comparing abortion to slavery or murder just means you can't make an argumetn against abortion that doesn't consist of 'My Magic Sky Fairy thinks it's bad."

The reality is this, whether you want to face it or not... At some point, abortion laws in America are going to be reformed to consider the rights of the unborn. This is simply not something that, no matter what the circumstance, it should always be up to the woman and doctor alone. It involves another human life. Society will get there through a rational approach, but you're not rational and you won't be calling any of the shots.

Actually, it's more likely that they will perfect at home abortion medications, and this won't be a public issue.

Kind of like how you guys lobbied to get smut shops closed, but everyone just gets their porn on the internet now.

 

[Boss]

So when was the last time we heard from "NOrthern Baptists"? Oh, that's right. We haven't.

It's because there is no Northern Baptist Convention because they didn't break away from the rest of the Baptists and form their own denomination. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Baptist who wasn't a Southern Baptist. (Even though he was southern and baptist.... I know, tough concept for your brain!)

The thing is, most people would agree murders are a bad thing.
You'd never get that kind of agreement on abortion, especially in the first trimester when 99% of them are performed.

Guy, you keep trying to make silly points to uphold your position. Comparing abortion to slavery or murder just means you can't make an argumetn against abortion that doesn't consist of 'My Magic Sky Fairy thinks it's bad."

Most people would agree abortions are a bad thing. Do you think they are good? In essence, the only thing that keeps abortion from being murder is the law. I didn't compare abortion to murder, I used murder as an example to defeat your argument that we shouldn't bother with laws against things that are going to happen. I also didn't compare abortion to slavery, I compared the arguments you are making to condone abortion to the arguments made condoning slavery and you've not been able to offer anything to refute that.

I reject your statement that 99% of abortions are first trimester. Cite your sources and let's see the data to support the claim. I'm on the record, if we can limit abortion to the first 12 weeks, I can live with that. It's still human life, I still feel it's wrong to kill it, but I can acknowledge that others in society don't share my same reverence for life and we have to form laws we can all live with. Many pro-lifers disagree with me but that's okay, I don't need to be part of the herd.

And I don't know where you get the "My Magic Sky Fairy" nonsense, I have been fairly clear that I am not a religious person and my viewpoint is not prompted by religious dogma. I'm a humanitarian who believes in protecting human life, that's all.

Actually, it's more likely that they will perfect at home abortion medications, and this won't be a public issue.

Kind of like how you guys lobbied to get smut shops closed, but everyone just gets their porn on the internet now.

I don't know who you think you're talking to Joe, I am not a part of "you guys" and I don't understand what abortion has to do with The People vs Larry Flynt. We see a pattern here with you, whenever you need a new argument because the old one has been torched. you run out there and find something else sticking in your craw to belch nonsense about. Most of it seems to be centered on your hatred of religion, which I can't help you with. You'll never defeat religion, it's here to stay.

 

[JoeB131]

Most people would agree abortions are a bad thing. Do you think they are good? In essence, the only thing that keeps abortion from being murder is the law.

Actually, I do think that abortion is a good thing. The kind of people who get aborted are the kinds of people who shouldn't have been brought into the world to start with and tend to be a drag on the rest of us. It's no surprise that when the Class of 1973 began to come of age, the crime rates dropped dramatically.

I reject your statement that 99% of abortions are first trimester. Cite your sources and let's see the data to support the claim.

Not my job to do your research for you. Fact is 88% of SURGICAL abortions are performed before the 13th week. (That number would go higher if you factored in chemical abortions.)

National Abortion Federation 8211 Abortion Facts

only 1% are per formed after "Viability" - 20 weeks plus.

And I don't know where you get the "My Magic Sky Fairy" nonsense, I have been fairly clear that I am not a religious person and my viewpoint is not prompted by religious dogma. I'm a humanitarian who believes in protecting human life, that's all.

But your whole premise of "human life' is based on a religious point of view. Not a legal or scientific one.

I don't know who you think you're talking to Joe,

I know exactly who I am talking to. I'm talking to a conservatard tool who thinks that if he just sucks up to rich people and let's himself get played enough, that you'll get to sit at the big table.

 

[Boss]

Actually, I do think that abortion is a good thing.

Again... Says all we need to know about you.

the kinds of people who shouldn't have been brought into the world to start with

On what ungodly basis are you making this judgement for 45 million unborn fetuses? On what logical basis do you claim to know the potential of "the kinds of people" you are referring to? You might be aborting the individual who would eventually find the cure for cancer. Perhaps you've already aborted a Mozart or Shakespeare? How can you ignorantly allow your mind to believe that you know the eventuality of a person before they are even born, based on the detail they are not wanted by their mother? Should I post the rather long list of exceptional individuals who overcame not being wanted as a child?

Not my job to do your research for you. Fact is 88% of SURGICAL abortions are performed before the 13th week. (That number would go higher if you factored in chemical abortions.)

National Abortion Federation 8211 Abortion Facts

only 1% are per formed after "Viability" - 20 weeks plus.

88% is a long way from your 98% claim. So you haven't supported your argument.

Also, 20 weeks is substantially longer in the organism's phase of growth and development than my 12 week deadline. Any woman should know by the 6th week after her last menstrual cycle, she is pregnant. That gives her another 6 weeks to take care of it which I think is more than fair. Beyond 12 weeks, I have a serious problem with abortion.

"Viability" has already been discussed. The human life became viable as human life at the point of conception. You are intentionally placing artificial barriers on the organism to demand it exist outside the parameters it is expected to exist. Then you are labeling THAT "viable."

I understand the SCOTUS sees it differently. I understand what is law of the land. I simply think it's wrong and you've not convinced me otherwise.

 

[JoeB131]

Also, 20 weeks is substantially longer in the organism's phase of growth and development than my 12 week deadline. Any woman should know by the 6th week after her last menstrual cycle, she is pregnant. That gives her another 6 weeks to take care of it which I think is more than fair. Beyond 12 weeks, I have a serious problem with abortion.

You've got serious problems, but they probably have more to do with your misogyny.

I understand the SCOTUS sees it differently. I understand what is law of the land. I simply think it's wrong and you've not convinced me otherwise.

You work on the assumption I care about winning over religious nuts on this issue. I don't. If you guys cared about babies, you'd give a shit about them after they are born.

On what ungodly basis are you making this judgement for 45 million unborn fetuses? On what logical basis do you claim to know the potential of "the kinds of people" you are referring to? You might be aborting the individual who would eventually find the cure for cancer. Perhaps you've already aborted a Mozart or Shakespeare? How can you ignorantly allow your mind to believe that you know the eventuality of a person before they are even born, based on the detail they are not wanted by their mother? Should I post the rather long list of exceptional individuals who overcame not being wanted as a child?

The prisons are filled with guys who were born to women who weren't ready to be mothers or never should have been mothers to start with. I'd happily trade the next Shakespeare for a couple thousand of those slugs, and call it a good trade.

Here's the thing. The planet's ALREADY overpopulated. There are already more people than the planet can sustain. As grisly as abortion is, it is better than the alternatives- War, Famine, and Plague.

 

[Boss]

Also, 20 weeks is substantially longer in the organism's phase of growth and development than my 12 week deadline. Any woman should know by the 6th week after her last menstrual cycle, she is pregnant. That gives her another 6 weeks to take care of it which I think is more than fair. Beyond 12 weeks, I have a serious problem with abortion.

You've got serious problems, but they probably have more to do with your misogyny.

If anything, it's misogyny to think a woman is too dim witted to know she's pregnant and take care of it within 12 weeks.

I understand the SCOTUS sees it differently. I understand what is law of the land. I simply think it's wrong and you've not convinced me otherwise.

You work on the assumption I care about winning over religious nuts on this issue. I don't. If you guys cared about babies, you'd give a shit about them after they are born.

And you work on the assumption that society has left this all up to you. It hasn't. We know you don't care about human life, before it's born, after it's born, doesn't matter, if it gets in the way of your objectives and desires it justifies you killing it. All that matters is you and what you want.

On what ungodly basis are you making this judgement for 45 million unborn fetuses? On what logical basis do you claim to know the potential of "the kinds of people" you are referring to? You might be aborting the individual who would eventually find the cure for cancer. Perhaps you've already aborted a Mozart or Shakespeare? How can you ignorantly allow your mind to believe that you know the eventuality of a person before they are even born, based on the detail they are not wanted by their mother? Should I post the rather long list of exceptional individuals who overcame not being wanted as a child?

The prisons are filled with guys who were born to women who weren't ready to be mothers or never should have been mothers to start with. I'd happily trade the next Shakespeare for a couple thousand of those slugs, and call it a good trade.

Here's the thing. The planet's ALREADY overpopulated. There are already more people than the planet can sustain. As grisly as abortion is, it is better than the alternatives- War, Famine, and Plague.

The prisons are full of people who broke the law. Some were born to bad mothers, some were born to good mothers who spoiled them rotten. There is absolutely no basis for your argument here, other than your obvious incessant bigotry toward other people. You are the type who sees other people as a stereotype and nothing more. You've already made your mind up about an individual on the basis of their skin, their politics, their accent, their religion, their gender, their upbringing...in this case, even their potential upbringing... in everything you post, this is most abundantly clear... "the kind of people who are aborted...."

If we're in need of getting rid of people on the planet, why don't we start with bigoted moronic haters like you?

 

[JoeB131]

If anything, it's misogyny to think a woman is too dim witted to know she's pregnant and take care of it within 12 weeks.

A lot of women miss a period and don't realize they are preggers. I'm really starting to wonder how much interaction you have with real women.

If we're in need of getting rid of people on the planet, why don't we start with bigoted moronic haters like you?

Yes, I only work very hard, served my country in the armed forces, own property and a small business. Clearly I'm not contributing the way a welfare queen waiting for her Obamaphone is.