The Paradox of Police and Property.

[danielpalos]

The riots by the international Left, and their local subsidiary, the Democrat Party, have brought into focus the disparity between what we understand as "Property" and what is an associated concept...."Police."



1.Property, better known a 'private property,' is central to our civilization, and, in fact, a major difference between a free society and a totalitarian one. You can see the difference in the streets of America vandalized, this week, by the international Left brigades, and the thugs and criminals who serve their interests.

2. The Founders recognized the relationship between private property and prosperity, and the necessity of the first to produce the second.
Property rights precede liberty. Perhaps some know that before it became “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” in our Declaration of Independence, John Locke wrote that man has a right to “life, liberty, and property.” Property Rights Have Personal Parallels

Locke argued in his Two Treatises of Government that political society existed for the sake of protecting "property", which he defined as a person's "life, liberty, and estate".



3. Now, enter evil, stage Left:
Rousseau, the godfather of Leftist revolution, believed that property corrupted man’s nature good nature.

Leon Trotsky long ago pointed out that where there is no private ownership, individuals can be bent to the will of the state”
Bethell, “The Noblest Triumph,” p.9

Starting to see the real motivation of the Democrat/ANTIFA/criminal gangs?
The riots had several motivations, but the central one was a revolt against capitalism and private property.

The aim of these organized, coordinated, planned riots is the same as every Leftist revolution. This 'riot' has been organized, planned, and coordinated by the international Left.
ANTIFA ideologs instigate the destruction by bringing hammers and crowbars.....making entry into businesses, and pointing the way to thieves and looters.

These are the very same actions we would have seen in our nation if the Liberals, Democrats, Occupy Wall Street thugs were strong enough to impose them. After all, their aims were the same as the Marxist's.

Marxism:
"…a social philosophy that believes human rights can be detached from property rights. We are told that if humans would just be willing to share in the pursuit of the common good, harmony and social justice would prevail. Instead, what we observe is absent the right to property, all other human rights – including the right to one’s body – gives way to the rule of force.
…the abolition of property rights, is at the heart of the OWS movement. The attack on property rights begins with the act “to occupy,” that is to take possession of someone else’s property through the power of the mob."
Social Justice, Greed And The Occupy Wall Street Movement



Who is supposed to guard and protect our lives and property?

The police???

Are you sure?

We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States. Don't grab guns, grab gun lovers and regulate them well!

 

[kyzr]

Can you shoot looters to protect your property/business?
I'm wondering why there are no armed security guards in the NYC high-end stores??

I fear it is due to how the Left/Democrats have corrupted the legal institutions.

If you or your organization are responsible for wounding or killing a on your property or with your property, the first thing at issue will be the color of your skin and of the culprit, and then responsibility will be determined.
Melanin, we have learned, is a priori in all situations.


Later in the thread I will provide a stunning example of how police view 'property.'

Self-defense is typically a good defense....

Upstate New York store owners attacked while protecting business from looters

Police are still searching for suspects in the brutal beating of a Rochester, New York couple who police say were trying to protect their store Saturday.

www.foxbusiness.com

I live in the People's Republic of New York.....downstate.


Check out the court decisions in the Bronx.

OK, well as long as people and businesses are fleeing NYC, the pols can start their own businesses to see how stupid it is.
Without "law and order" cities won't survive.

I admit that I am a card-carrying pessimist......but I believe our civilization has past its 'sell-by' dated.

These atavistic savages are winning, they are the major political party, they own the schools and the media, and infect the entire legal system.
Did you note what happens to those rioters arrested? Democrat judges send them back out to cause more mayhem.



Sorry, K......we are basking in the afterglow of a once great nation, thanks to the nihilists.
They are so demented that they don't care that they will go down with the rest of us.

Don't be such a pessimist, these are the "good old days". You only see the urban plantations, out here in flyover country things are normal. Maybe you need to move to a friendlier kindred community?
Things can get a whole lot worse quickly, like if WW3 starts as an example, so keep working to make things better, 2016 did happen, so can 2020.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Can you shoot looters to protect your property/business?
I'm wondering why there are no armed security guards in the NYC high-end stores??

I fear it is due to how the Left/Democrats have corrupted the legal institutions.

If you or your organization are responsible for wounding or killing a on your property or with your property, the first thing at issue will be the color of your skin and of the culprit, and then responsibility will be determined.
Melanin, we have learned, is a priori in all situations.


Later in the thread I will provide a stunning example of how police view 'property.'

Self-defense is typically a good defense....

Upstate New York store owners attacked while protecting business from looters

Police are still searching for suspects in the brutal beating of a Rochester, New York couple who police say were trying to protect their store Saturday.

www.foxbusiness.com

I live in the People's Republic of New York.....downstate.


Check out the court decisions in the Bronx.

OK, well as long as people and businesses are fleeing NYC, the pols can start their own businesses to see how stupid it is.
Without "law and order" cities won't survive.

I admit that I am a card-carrying pessimist......but I believe our civilization has past its 'sell-by' dated.

These atavistic savages are winning, they are the major political party, they own the schools and the media, and infect the entire legal system.
Did you note what happens to those rioters arrested? Democrat judges send them back out to cause more mayhem.



Sorry, K......we are basking in the afterglow of a once great nation, thanks to the nihilists.
They are so demented that they don't care that they will go down with the rest of us.

Don't be such a pessimist, these are the "good old days". You only see the urban plantations, out here in flyover country things are normal. Maybe you need to move to a friendlier kindred community?
Things can get a whole lot worse quickly, like if WW3 starts as an example, so keep working to make things better, 2016 did happen, so can 2020.

In full disclosure, I live in a quiet, peaceful, neighborly community.....
...probably has a lower population density than most of the places you imagine.

My home was originally a church.


Here's the bad part......I read a lot of the news.......

 

[PoliticalChic]

4. “The theory of the Communists can be summarized in a single sentence: Abolition of private property.”
Marx and Engels, “Manifesto of the Communist Party,” Great Books, p. 425



5. Now….about that ‘Serve and Protect’ thing:

Police functions include protecting life and property, enforcing criminal law, criminal investigations, regulating traffic, crowd control, public safety duties, civil defense, emergency management, searching for missing persons, lost property and other duties concerned with public order.
Police - Wikipedia




6. In one of many truly stupid and counterintuitive decisions, the Supreme Court has decided

Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law.
Police Have No Duty to Protect You, Federal Court Affirms Yet ...

 

[PoliticalChic]

Policing on a local level:

 

[PoliticalChic]

As I said.....

ANTIFA ideologs instigate the destruction by bringing hammers and crowbars.....making entry into businesses, and pointing the way to thieves and looters.



Here's one response:

 

[PoliticalChic]

7. While private property is at the heart of our civilization, and inseparable from prosperity.......what can one expect from the executive power of the state, the police force????


Nothing.....if politically correct individuals are in charge.

For example, the Police Chief of Raleigh, North Carolina.


Raleigh Police Chief Cassandra Deck-Brown has a particularly.......odd......view of policing.
She isn't inclined to do it.


At 14:30 “I will not put an officer in harms way to protect the property….”

 

[PoliticalChic]

8. One wonders how those supporting, making life easier for rioters and thieve, would act if it they were the targets of said individuals. It seems we have the answer.



“Raleigh police have been guarding chief's home since March protest

LOCAL NEWS

RALEIGH, N.C. — Police have been providing round-the-clock protection at Police Chief Cassandra Deck-Brown's Raleigh home since protesters showed up at her door in March.”

Raleigh police have been guarding chief's home since March protest :: WRAL.com



It appears Police Chief Deck-Brown is entitled to protections that the citizens who pay her salary, aren’t. We saw the same sort of ‘equality’ in the Soviet Union’s worker’s paradise.



All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. Orwell.

 

[PoliticalChic]

9. Too many don't recognize that the real reason for the riots is the desire of the international Left's desire to destroy capitalism, private property, the current administration.....and the death of an American citizen served their purpose.
Perhaps the largest part of the problem is the ignorance instilled in government school.

"For Blazquez, watching American youth embrace avowed socialist Sen. Bernie Sanders for president, strikes him as “absurd.” It is the end result, he says, of the cultural marxist education and media propaganda that has anesthetized too many Americans who do not defend the values that made America exceptional."
Cuban-American Filmmaker Warns America Is Morphing Into Communist Country




The result is lock-step Liberals who neither understand nor can explain what they stand for.

Reliable Democrat voters vote for the insane Democrat/socialist policies…..but are clueless about what they are supporting. A vote for the Democrat Party is a vote against private property.


Here is one such Democrat voter:
“Occupy Wall Street Genius Says He’sAgainst “Private” Property, Not “Personal” Property … he wants to keep his iPad 2, naturally, and not share it with the shiftless vagrants fighting over access to one of the three Porta-Potties recently delivered to the now-evacuated camp site in lower Manhattan.” Occupy Wall Street Genius Says He's Against "Private" Property, Not "Personal" Property | Human Events


Perhaps there was once an American public that could understand both the big picture and the small one, too.

 

[initforme]

Well I gotta say a policemen should protect lives. As far as property I expect no policeman to put his or her life in jeopardy protecting property. We had better pay them a whole heck of a lot more to do that.

 

[22lcidw]

The basics of modern policing since they were first laid down by Sir Robert Peel in 1829 are that primary task of police is to prevent crime by their presence, a deterrent if you will. For most people, the fear of being caught and convicted of a crime is enough of a deterrent.

However, when crime is detected and suspects identified, the police gather evidence and ensure suspects are brought before the court. This is done by arresting the suspects until they can appear before the courts, or are bailed to appear before a court. Law enforcement isn't punishing offenders, that is the job of the courts.

There simply aren't enough resources to guard all property, all the time. Those who aren't deterred by the threat of arrest and incarceration will commit crimes, they won't be dissuade from crime by police, regardless of the size of the police presence.

"There simply aren't enough resources to guard all property, all the time. Those who aren't deterred by the threat of arrest and incarceration will commit crimes, they won't be dissuade from crime by police, regardless of the size of the police presence. "



So you are excusing crime because there aren't enough police?

I think if you look at actual police states (like Soviet Russia, Mainland China, and Nazi Germany) you'll see that despite massive police presence, unlimited police powers, and a massive state apparatus, crime still existed despite that police presence.

There are some people who won't be dissuaded from crime just by the thought that they MAY be incarcerated, or even executed for it.

If you're expecting police to prevent all property crime, you'd have to accept a much more intrusive kind of policing than we have today. Much more intrusive than even the worse police states in history have been able to create.

True, but they did a quick conviction of the perp.

 

[22lcidw]

Well I gotta say a policemen should protect lives. As far as property I expect no policeman to put his or her life in jeopardy protecting property. We had better pay them a whole heck of a lot more to do that.

Baci in the 1960's they raised the salaries of Police and other government employees. The idea was to get a better class of men to join and reduce corruption among them. Today, many cities and states have issues with union pensions which affect their budgets and we still have the same problems with government employees.

 

[initforme]

So you want to pay them peanuts and have no way for them to retire....got it.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Well I gotta say a policemen should protect lives. As far as property I expect no policeman to put his or her life in jeopardy protecting property. We had better pay them a whole heck of a lot more to do that.

Baci in the 1960's they raised the salaries of Police and other government employees. The idea was to get a better class of men to join and reduce corruption among them. Today, many cities and states have issues with union pensions which affect their budgets and we still have the same problems with government employees.

The question isn't the salary, it is what the job entails.

 

[PoliticalChic]

10. There is a saying ‘"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us."

One would hope so. This weeks events showed were Democrat officials stand….and it is not on our side.

But Sheriff Grady Judd is on our side:



'If you value your life, don't come to Polk County': Florida sheriff warns rioters, looters
POLK COUNTY, Fla. (WTSP) — Sheriff Grady Judd had a strong message for rioters and looters Monday: don't come to Polk County.

“– we’ve had criminal conduct afoot," Sheriff Judd said. "We’ve had citizens injured, windows broken, and we’ve had other attempts at assaulting law enforcement officers and assaulting buildings that we repelled.

Sheriff Judd also had a stern message for anyone who might come to the county to riot, loot, or injure people.

"I would tell them if you value your life, you probably shouldn’t do that in Polk County, because the people of Polk County like guns, they have guns, and I encourage them to own guns, and they’re going to be in their homes tonight with their guns loaded. And if you try to break into their homes, to steal, to set fires, I’m highly recommending they blow you back out of their house with their guns. So leave the community alone, and we’ll do our best to support the community." 'If you value your life, don't come to Polk County': Florida sheriff warns rioters, looters





God bless this man.

Wish we had more like him.

 

[Rigby5]

Can you shoot looters to protect your property/business?
I'm wondering why there are no armed security guards in the NYC high-end stores??

Most states do not allow the use of deadly force to protect property, but if you are there in the property, then you can use deadly force to protect yourself.

 

[Rigby5]

4. “The theory of the Communists can be summarized in a single sentence: Abolition of private property.”
Marx and Engels, “Manifesto of the Communist Party,” Great Books, p. 425



5. Now….about that ‘Serve and Protect’ thing:

Police functions include protecting life and property, enforcing criminal law, criminal investigations, regulating traffic, crowd control, public safety duties, civil defense, emergency management, searching for missing persons, lost property and other duties concerned with public order.
Police - Wikipedia




6. In one of many truly stupid and counterintuitive decisions, the Supreme Court has decided

Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law.
Police Have No Duty to Protect You, Federal Court Affirms Yet ...

That is not true.
Marx and Engles never intended or even wrote that private property should ever be abolished, or that it even could be.
They were referring only to the means of production.
The industrial revolution ended cottage industries, and forced everyone who used to work at home, to work at a factory owned by whomever could afford the means of production.
Marx and Engles merely meant that government should be helping to provide the tools needed for people to be able to work.

Obviously your home, personal possessions, home tools, mementos, clothing, etc., would always remain personal property.
But Marx was not even referring to personal property at all, but only ‘bourgeois property’ in reality.

Marx and the meaning of private property

Marx's stance on private property is far from the horror we're told it is, writes John Westmoreland

www.counterfire.org

Here is a better explanation:
{...
Marx's stance on private property is far from the horror we're told it is, writes John Westmoreland
...
Most of our discussion, and indeed the most fruitful part of it, was taken up with Marx’s declaration that Communists should seek ‘the abolition of bourgeois property’.
...

However Marx anticipated this reaction. He pointed out that he was referring to ‘bourgeois property’, and property relations not the hard won property of the worker. For Marx the bourgeois defence of their property was at one and the same time a defence of their power, and was riddled with hypocrisy because,

All property relations in the past have continually been subject to historical change consequent upon the change in historical conditions. The French Revolution, for example, abolished feudal property in favour of bourgeois property.

It is worth thinking about ‘bourgeois property relations’ in more detail. Bourgeois property relations come about, as Marx says above, through dispossessing others, and then inventing a legal code to justify this robbery.
...}

Remember he was writing in German, and things do not always translate accuately.

 

[kyzr]

Can you shoot looters to protect your property/business?
I'm wondering why there are no armed security guards in the NYC high-end stores??

Most states do not allow the use of deadly force to protect property, but if you are there in the property, then you can use deadly force to protect yourself.

There was another thread where some businesses are recruiting militia members to defend their businesses in case of a riot. Sounds legal if the militia members are inside the building and the looters attack.

 

[PoliticalChic]

4. “The theory of the Communists can be summarized in a single sentence: Abolition of private property.”
Marx and Engels, “Manifesto of the Communist Party,” Great Books, p. 425



5. Now….about that ‘Serve and Protect’ thing:

Police functions include protecting life and property, enforcing criminal law, criminal investigations, regulating traffic, crowd control, public safety duties, civil defense, emergency management, searching for missing persons, lost property and other duties concerned with public order.
Police - Wikipedia




6. In one of many truly stupid and counterintuitive decisions, the Supreme Court has decided

Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law.
Police Have No Duty to Protect You, Federal Court Affirms Yet ...

That is not true.
Marx and Engles never intended or even wrote that private property should ever be abolished, or that it even could be.
They were referring only to the means of production.
The industrial revolution ended cottage industries, and forced everyone who used to work at home, to work at a factory owned by whomever could afford the means of production.
Marx and Engles merely meant that government should be helping to provide the tools needed for people to be able to work.

Obviously your home, personal possessions, home tools, mementos, clothing, etc., would always remain personal property.
But Marx was not even referring to personal property at all, but only ‘bourgeois property’ in reality.

Marx and the meaning of private property

Marx's stance on private property is far from the horror we're told it is, writes John Westmoreland

www.counterfire.org

Here is a better explanation:
{...
Marx's stance on private property is far from the horror we're told it is, writes John Westmoreland
...
Most of our discussion, and indeed the most fruitful part of it, was taken up with Marx’s declaration that Communists should seek ‘the abolition of bourgeois property’.
...

However Marx anticipated this reaction. He pointed out that he was referring to ‘bourgeois property’, and property relations not the hard won property of the worker. For Marx the bourgeois defence of their property was at one and the same time a defence of their power, and was riddled with hypocrisy because,

All property relations in the past have continually been subject to historical change consequent upon the change in historical conditions. The French Revolution, for example, abolished feudal property in favour of bourgeois property.

It is worth thinking about ‘bourgeois property relations’ in more detail. Bourgeois property relations come about, as Marx says above, through dispossessing others, and then inventing a legal code to justify this robbery.
...}

Remember he was writing in German, and things do not always translate accuately.

Why must I put up with ignoramuses who argue that water isn't wet??????


First, I provided the quote and the source.

Second, here, from Historian Paul Johnson's book, "Intellectuals."

“Having defined wealth as Jewish money-power expanded into the bourgeois class as a whole, and having defined the proletariat in his new philosophical sense, Marx then proceeds, using Hegelian dialectic, to the heart of his philosophy, the events leading up to the great crisis.



The key passage ends: The proletariat executes the sentence that private property pronounced on itself by begetting the proletariat, just as it carries out the sentence which wage-labour pronounced for itself by bringing forth wealth for others and misery for itself. If the proletariat is victorious it does not at all mean that it becomes the absolute side of society, for it is victorious only by abolishing itself and its opposite. Then the proletariat and its determining opposite, private property, disappear.



‘Socialism cannot be brought into existence without revolution. When the organizing activity begins, when the soul, the thing- in-itself appears, then socialism can toss aside all the political veils.’”
Paul Johnson, “Intellectuals”



And..

‘The centralization of the means of production and the socialization of labour reach a point where they prove incompatible with their capitalist husk. This bursts asunder. The knell of capitalist private property sounds. The expropriators are expropriated.’ This is very exciting and has delighted
generations of socialist zealots. But it has no more claim to be a scientific projection than an astrologer’s almanac.” Johnson, Op. Cit.




And....

Karl Marx’s father was a student of Rousseau. Rousseau had posited an all-powerful state that alters human nature to abhor competition, private property, wealth. And Marxism picks up where Rousseau left off.


Get an education.

 

[basquebromance]

you are 12 thousand times more likely to be killed by a doctor (medical malpractice) then a police officer. where are the anti-doctor protests?