The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

Who are the indiginous people(s) of the Palestine region?


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    49

ESay

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think history has shown that lesson well, numerous times and especially recently. Some who were drawn by the Emancipation and a dream of equality through assimilation in Germany, tried to declare literally just what You've proposed. Which would be a healthy philosophical question for all nations, if they can build their own Jerusalem in their countries, but for Jews it's kinda like inviting problem, don't You think?
That is why I was talking not about living in some place as a 'closed' national and religious minority, but importing with themselves their culture and governance. Not assimilate Jews into some other culture but on the contrary, 'assimilate' this culture into Jewish.

I am not arguing about uniqueness of Jerusalem for the Jews. And not advocating it to be 'carried out' to some other place or be replaced by something.

By new Jerusalem I mean another country (in addition to Israel) being organized as a mainly Jewish state.
Frankly, not sure I understand.

Let me give personal example - my family on my father's side 22 generations returned from today's Iraq, but in the family tradition it's emphasized that they actually never left because their village was inside the promised border. Some managed to stay in today's Syria, some in Lebanon. Some others in Yemen who were exiled long before us, upon hearing of Shabtay Zvi sold their entire community property, wore Shabbat cloths and prepared to be lifted to Israel...

Let's put aside the 'religion talk' and look from a cultural, even legal perspective - there's no such cultural archetype, or legal mechanism. Jewish law itself is attached to a defined boundary. If nations would want to become subjects of Israeli rule, this can be done in a parliamentary monarchy, but there's a big question whether Jewish law that applies to the land of Israel can be applied there, i.e. if Jews can fulfill basic agricultural commandments and include it into the Sabbatical year and Jubilee, from which essentially stem the whole practical basis of the law, the essence of the Jewish archetypal connection to a specific land and her natural cycles.

There's no cultural archetype or mechanism, to expand cultural boundaries,
beyond land where Torah law doesn't apply fully to Jews.
Well, I can't articulate my idea properly, because I myself have only a vague vision of it. You maybe have a question of how this even came to my mind. I will explain. I live in a country where there are some amount of people who believe in a conspiracy that tells about a desire of the Jews to create in this country a second Israel.

I don't particularly take this into consideration seriously, but once I thought - well, maybe this isn't a bad idea as a whole. We as a nation aren't capable of creating and governing a prosperous state. And inviting 'overseas' rulers who once had connections to this land may help to resolve this. And this rulers shouldn't be enclosed community which live in a parallel reality.

This once happened in the history of our land, btw, and it had very good consequences.

But of course, that is only a pure theory now.
Wow, so many conflicting thoughts about this.
I actually lived in Your country for 2 years, when my cousin went to manage a factory opening, but never heard about this specific conspiracy being circulated in public. Such are commonly brought up as a blood libel, it's totally counter intuitive that someone perceives it positively.

This is essentially a messianic thought, and let me clarify. maybe that helps with what is vague. When I say 'messianic thought', I don't mean a vision of Israel ruling the world, rather "and the families of the land will be blessed in You", which practically means advice. The Jewish vision of a corrected world is one where the families of nations are each expressing their own self, rather than canceling their historic and indigenous sovereignty, to align with a post-conflict reality in a world in which the knowledge of G-d covers it like water the oceans.

But frankly, recently that I saw Zelensky being put as president, raised all sorts alarms with me, mainly the well-being of the remnant diaspora in such an environment, after the televised opposition arrests by the Bandera gang, now they put a Jewish comedian on top..
That certainly serves these kind of conspiracies in the public, and exactly the expression of what I was alarmed about.

To sum it up - any nation can strive to build her own 'new Jerusalem', but this can only be achieved by acknowledging Jerusalem of the G-d of Israel. And that is not a vision of Jewish rule over foreign lands, rather of in-gathering of diaspora and advice as a sovereign nation to sovereign nations. Each nation with their 'new Jerusalem' and Israel as a nation of priests in their Jerusalem as allotted by the G-d of Israel.
In Halachic terms, we cannot serve at Your altars and temples, or build ours in foreign lands, but we are obligated, if You ask, to teach and assist in giving and offering, and even serve Your offerings in Jerusalem, if it is for the G-d of Israel.

And then Zelensky could be at most an emissary...but who knows, if Jerenovsky 'my father was a lawyer' says there's a conspiracy to make Ukraine a new Jerusalem, then it must be speaking at least to some in the diaspora, I already mentioned, this happened in a very likely environment, only without Zelensky, but very recently,

And that's why promotion and encouragement of the repatriation to Israel, from Your country is of top national priority, as opposed to what populist conspiracies say. The history of Odessa and Kiev will always remain Jewish, but so will also the latest burning of the people in the municipality centers. Many, if not most Soviet immigrants, when brought in private conversations are opposed to cooperation with Kiev.
I know that relations between the Ukrainians and Jews weren't cloudless, to put it mildly. So, I expected this sort of an answer. Thanks, anyway.

About Zelensky and your anxiety. You know, Poroshenko and Yatseniuk were also listed as Jews by some people. So, when Zelensky got the post nothing changed in this regard, actually.

I was very surprised to know that you lived in Ukraine. Two years is sufficient term to get some knowledge of the country and its society. Where did you live (if it isn't too personal question for you)?
 

rylah

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think history has shown that lesson well, numerous times and especially recently. Some who were drawn by the Emancipation and a dream of equality through assimilation in Germany, tried to declare literally just what You've proposed. Which would be a healthy philosophical question for all nations, if they can build their own Jerusalem in their countries, but for Jews it's kinda like inviting problem, don't You think?
That is why I was talking not about living in some place as a 'closed' national and religious minority, but importing with themselves their culture and governance. Not assimilate Jews into some other culture but on the contrary, 'assimilate' this culture into Jewish.

I am not arguing about uniqueness of Jerusalem for the Jews. And not advocating it to be 'carried out' to some other place or be replaced by something.

By new Jerusalem I mean another country (in addition to Israel) being organized as a mainly Jewish state.
Frankly, not sure I understand.

Let me give personal example - my family on my father's side 22 generations returned from today's Iraq, but in the family tradition it's emphasized that they actually never left because their village was inside the promised border. Some managed to stay in today's Syria, some in Lebanon. Some others in Yemen who were exiled long before us, upon hearing of Shabtay Zvi sold their entire community property, wore Shabbat cloths and prepared to be lifted to Israel...

Let's put aside the 'religion talk' and look from a cultural, even legal perspective - there's no such cultural archetype, or legal mechanism. Jewish law itself is attached to a defined boundary. If nations would want to become subjects of Israeli rule, this can be done in a parliamentary monarchy, but there's a big question whether Jewish law that applies to the land of Israel can be applied there, i.e. if Jews can fulfill basic agricultural commandments and include it into the Sabbatical year and Jubilee, from which essentially stem the whole practical basis of the law, the essence of the Jewish archetypal connection to a specific land and her natural cycles.

There's no cultural archetype or mechanism, to expand cultural boundaries,
beyond land where Torah law doesn't apply fully to Jews.
Well, I can't articulate my idea properly, because I myself have only a vague vision of it. You maybe have a question of how this even came to my mind. I will explain. I live in a country where there are some amount of people who believe in a conspiracy that tells about a desire of the Jews to create in this country a second Israel.

I don't particularly take this into consideration seriously, but once I thought - well, maybe this isn't a bad idea as a whole. We as a nation aren't capable of creating and governing a prosperous state. And inviting 'overseas' rulers who once had connections to this land may help to resolve this. And this rulers shouldn't be enclosed community which live in a parallel reality.

This once happened in the history of our land, btw, and it had very good consequences.

But of course, that is only a pure theory now.
Wow, so many conflicting thoughts about this.
I actually lived in Your country for 2 years, when my cousin went to manage a factory opening, but never heard about this specific conspiracy being circulated in public. Such are commonly brought up as a blood libel, it's totally counter intuitive that someone perceives it positively.

This is essentially a messianic thought, and let me clarify. maybe that helps with what is vague. When I say 'messianic thought', I don't mean a vision of Israel ruling the world, rather "and the families of the land will be blessed in You", which practically means advice. The Jewish vision of a corrected world is one where the families of nations are each expressing their own self, rather than canceling their historic and indigenous sovereignty, to align with a post-conflict reality in a world in which the knowledge of G-d covers it like water the oceans.

But frankly, recently that I saw Zelensky being put as president, raised all sorts alarms with me, mainly the well-being of the remnant diaspora in such an environment, after the televised opposition arrests by the Bandera gang, now they put a Jewish comedian on top..
That certainly serves these kind of conspiracies in the public, and exactly the expression of what I was alarmed about.

To sum it up - any nation can strive to build her own 'new Jerusalem', but this can only be achieved by acknowledging Jerusalem of the G-d of Israel. And that is not a vision of Jewish rule over foreign lands, rather of in-gathering of diaspora and advice as a sovereign nation to sovereign nations. Each nation with their 'new Jerusalem' and Israel as a nation of priests in their Jerusalem as allotted by the G-d of Israel.
In Halachic terms, we cannot serve at Your altars and temples, or build ours in foreign lands, but we are obligated, if You ask, to teach and assist in giving and offering, and even serve Your offerings in Jerusalem, if it is for the G-d of Israel.

And then Zelensky could be at most an emissary...but who knows, if Jerenovsky 'my father was a lawyer' says there's a conspiracy to make Ukraine a new Jerusalem, then it must be speaking at least to some in the diaspora, I already mentioned, this happened in a very likely environment, only without Zelensky, but very recently,

And that's why promotion and encouragement of the repatriation to Israel, from Your country is of top national priority, as opposed to what populist conspiracies say. The history of Odessa and Kiev will always remain Jewish, but so will also the latest burning of the people in the municipality centers. Many, if not most Soviet immigrants, when brought in private conversations are opposed to cooperation with Kiev.
I know that relations between the Ukrainians and Jews weren't cloudless, to put it mildly. So, I expected this sort of an answer. Thanks, anyway.

About Zelensky and your anxiety. You know, Poroshenko and Yatseniuk were also listed as Jews by some people. So, when Zelensky got the post nothing changed in this regard, actually.

I was very surprised to know that you lived in Ukraine. Two years is sufficient term to get some knowledge of the country and its society. Where did you live (if it isn't too personal question for you)?
This puts in some perspective I guess, thanks.

Never actually aimed to understand the politics of the country, beyond a single thing when it was clear they're going to split it. And yes during that trip I tried to more understand the culture, rather than specifically politics, see how the Jewish community lives. I was mainly in Kiev, while my cousin in the west, near the border with Poland, forgot the name of the town. We also traveled to he eastern separatist side to meet some folks in Donetsk and another town in the coal mine region.

Again I don't pretend to understand, but my impression overall was that You folks have Your own thing, but also a nation in the Slav civilization, like one of the main tribe, like the Belarus, and to extent like Israel the Arabs, and essentially the whole internal conflict, beyond all external influence was basically a natural post-Soviet identity crisis at the break of a new millennia.

What did You prefer at the time, the EU or Eurasia?
 

rylah

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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
 

P F Tinmore

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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
It just seems funny that people claim to be indigenous when they have no ancestors from that place.
 

rylah

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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
It just seems funny that people claim to be indigenous when they have no ancestors from that place.
Jewish civilization has no ancestry in Judea?
Yeah that's a smart argument...
 

MartyNYC

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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
It just seems funny that people claim to be indigenous when they have no ancestors from that place.
Jewish civilization has no ancestry in Judea?
Yeah that's a smart argument...
Go prove that none sense.
Judea was the Roman form of Judah. Roman historian Tacitus acknowledged Judea as land of the Jews, with Jerusalem their Capital.

35609D2D-1FC0-4AB1-89F0-7DD799FECC79.jpeg
 

MartyNYC

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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
It just seems funny that people claim to be indigenous when they have no ancestors from that place.
Jewish civilization has no ancestry in Judea?
Yeah that's a smart argument...

BBC documentary: Jews’ rebellion in Judea (“land of the Jews”) against occupying Roman Empire about 2,000 years ago..,

 

Shusha

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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
It just seems funny that people claim to be indigenous when they have no ancestors from that place.
In other words, you have no idea what "indigenous" actually means. Or, more correctly, you are willfully misrepresenting the idea so as to specifically exclude Jews.

The criteria for indigeneity:

Coalescence of a cultural group
Ability to declare indigenous status
Maintaining a distinct culture
Having a unique sociocultural form
Having a desire to reproduce the culture

Note: there is nothing there about blood markers or "ancestry".
 

ESay

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think history has shown that lesson well, numerous times and especially recently. Some who were drawn by the Emancipation and a dream of equality through assimilation in Germany, tried to declare literally just what You've proposed. Which would be a healthy philosophical question for all nations, if they can build their own Jerusalem in their countries, but for Jews it's kinda like inviting problem, don't You think?
That is why I was talking not about living in some place as a 'closed' national and religious minority, but importing with themselves their culture and governance. Not assimilate Jews into some other culture but on the contrary, 'assimilate' this culture into Jewish.

I am not arguing about uniqueness of Jerusalem for the Jews. And not advocating it to be 'carried out' to some other place or be replaced by something.

By new Jerusalem I mean another country (in addition to Israel) being organized as a mainly Jewish state.
Frankly, not sure I understand.

Let me give personal example - my family on my father's side 22 generations returned from today's Iraq, but in the family tradition it's emphasized that they actually never left because their village was inside the promised border. Some managed to stay in today's Syria, some in Lebanon. Some others in Yemen who were exiled long before us, upon hearing of Shabtay Zvi sold their entire community property, wore Shabbat cloths and prepared to be lifted to Israel...

Let's put aside the 'religion talk' and look from a cultural, even legal perspective - there's no such cultural archetype, or legal mechanism. Jewish law itself is attached to a defined boundary. If nations would want to become subjects of Israeli rule, this can be done in a parliamentary monarchy, but there's a big question whether Jewish law that applies to the land of Israel can be applied there, i.e. if Jews can fulfill basic agricultural commandments and include it into the Sabbatical year and Jubilee, from which essentially stem the whole practical basis of the law, the essence of the Jewish archetypal connection to a specific land and her natural cycles.

There's no cultural archetype or mechanism, to expand cultural boundaries,
beyond land where Torah law doesn't apply fully to Jews.
Well, I can't articulate my idea properly, because I myself have only a vague vision of it. You maybe have a question of how this even came to my mind. I will explain. I live in a country where there are some amount of people who believe in a conspiracy that tells about a desire of the Jews to create in this country a second Israel.

I don't particularly take this into consideration seriously, but once I thought - well, maybe this isn't a bad idea as a whole. We as a nation aren't capable of creating and governing a prosperous state. And inviting 'overseas' rulers who once had connections to this land may help to resolve this. And this rulers shouldn't be enclosed community which live in a parallel reality.

This once happened in the history of our land, btw, and it had very good consequences.

But of course, that is only a pure theory now.
Wow, so many conflicting thoughts about this.
I actually lived in Your country for 2 years, when my cousin went to manage a factory opening, but never heard about this specific conspiracy being circulated in public. Such are commonly brought up as a blood libel, it's totally counter intuitive that someone perceives it positively.

This is essentially a messianic thought, and let me clarify. maybe that helps with what is vague. When I say 'messianic thought', I don't mean a vision of Israel ruling the world, rather "and the families of the land will be blessed in You", which practically means advice. The Jewish vision of a corrected world is one where the families of nations are each expressing their own self, rather than canceling their historic and indigenous sovereignty, to align with a post-conflict reality in a world in which the knowledge of G-d covers it like water the oceans.

But frankly, recently that I saw Zelensky being put as president, raised all sorts alarms with me, mainly the well-being of the remnant diaspora in such an environment, after the televised opposition arrests by the Bandera gang, now they put a Jewish comedian on top..
That certainly serves these kind of conspiracies in the public, and exactly the expression of what I was alarmed about.

To sum it up - any nation can strive to build her own 'new Jerusalem', but this can only be achieved by acknowledging Jerusalem of the G-d of Israel. And that is not a vision of Jewish rule over foreign lands, rather of in-gathering of diaspora and advice as a sovereign nation to sovereign nations. Each nation with their 'new Jerusalem' and Israel as a nation of priests in their Jerusalem as allotted by the G-d of Israel.
In Halachic terms, we cannot serve at Your altars and temples, or build ours in foreign lands, but we are obligated, if You ask, to teach and assist in giving and offering, and even serve Your offerings in Jerusalem, if it is for the G-d of Israel.

And then Zelensky could be at most an emissary...but who knows, if Jerenovsky 'my father was a lawyer' says there's a conspiracy to make Ukraine a new Jerusalem, then it must be speaking at least to some in the diaspora, I already mentioned, this happened in a very likely environment, only without Zelensky, but very recently,

And that's why promotion and encouragement of the repatriation to Israel, from Your country is of top national priority, as opposed to what populist conspiracies say. The history of Odessa and Kiev will always remain Jewish, but so will also the latest burning of the people in the municipality centers. Many, if not most Soviet immigrants, when brought in private conversations are opposed to cooperation with Kiev.
I know that relations between the Ukrainians and Jews weren't cloudless, to put it mildly. So, I expected this sort of an answer. Thanks, anyway.

About Zelensky and your anxiety. You know, Poroshenko and Yatseniuk were also listed as Jews by some people. So, when Zelensky got the post nothing changed in this regard, actually.

I was very surprised to know that you lived in Ukraine. Two years is sufficient term to get some knowledge of the country and its society. Where did you live (if it isn't too personal question for you)?
This puts in some perspective I guess, thanks.

Never actually aimed to understand the politics of the country, beyond a single thing when it was clear they're going to split it. And yes during that trip I tried to more understand the culture, rather than specifically politics, see how the Jewish community lives. I was mainly in Kiev, while my cousin in the west, near the border with Poland, forgot the name of the town. We also traveled to he eastern separatist side to meet some folks in Donetsk and another town in the coal mine region.

Again I don't pretend to understand, but my impression overall was that You folks have Your own thing, but also a nation in the Slav civilization, like one of the main tribe, like the Belarus, and to extent like Israel the Arabs, and essentially the whole internal conflict, beyond all external influence was basically a natural post-Soviet identity crisis at the break of a new millennia.

What did You prefer at the time, the EU or Eurasia?
The EU of course. I am not a great fan of it and don't think Ukraine will join to it in the near future (if ever). But obviously, the political system it endorses is much more preferable for me than that of Eurasia's model.
 

rylah

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think history has shown that lesson well, numerous times and especially recently. Some who were drawn by the Emancipation and a dream of equality through assimilation in Germany, tried to declare literally just what You've proposed. Which would be a healthy philosophical question for all nations, if they can build their own Jerusalem in their countries, but for Jews it's kinda like inviting problem, don't You think?
That is why I was talking not about living in some place as a 'closed' national and religious minority, but importing with themselves their culture and governance. Not assimilate Jews into some other culture but on the contrary, 'assimilate' this culture into Jewish.

I am not arguing about uniqueness of Jerusalem for the Jews. And not advocating it to be 'carried out' to some other place or be replaced by something.

By new Jerusalem I mean another country (in addition to Israel) being organized as a mainly Jewish state.
Frankly, not sure I understand.

Let me give personal example - my family on my father's side 22 generations returned from today's Iraq, but in the family tradition it's emphasized that they actually never left because their village was inside the promised border. Some managed to stay in today's Syria, some in Lebanon. Some others in Yemen who were exiled long before us, upon hearing of Shabtay Zvi sold their entire community property, wore Shabbat cloths and prepared to be lifted to Israel...

Let's put aside the 'religion talk' and look from a cultural, even legal perspective - there's no such cultural archetype, or legal mechanism. Jewish law itself is attached to a defined boundary. If nations would want to become subjects of Israeli rule, this can be done in a parliamentary monarchy, but there's a big question whether Jewish law that applies to the land of Israel can be applied there, i.e. if Jews can fulfill basic agricultural commandments and include it into the Sabbatical year and Jubilee, from which essentially stem the whole practical basis of the law, the essence of the Jewish archetypal connection to a specific land and her natural cycles.

There's no cultural archetype or mechanism, to expand cultural boundaries,
beyond land where Torah law doesn't apply fully to Jews.
Well, I can't articulate my idea properly, because I myself have only a vague vision of it. You maybe have a question of how this even came to my mind. I will explain. I live in a country where there are some amount of people who believe in a conspiracy that tells about a desire of the Jews to create in this country a second Israel.

I don't particularly take this into consideration seriously, but once I thought - well, maybe this isn't a bad idea as a whole. We as a nation aren't capable of creating and governing a prosperous state. And inviting 'overseas' rulers who once had connections to this land may help to resolve this. And this rulers shouldn't be enclosed community which live in a parallel reality.

This once happened in the history of our land, btw, and it had very good consequences.

But of course, that is only a pure theory now.
Wow, so many conflicting thoughts about this.
I actually lived in Your country for 2 years, when my cousin went to manage a factory opening, but never heard about this specific conspiracy being circulated in public. Such are commonly brought up as a blood libel, it's totally counter intuitive that someone perceives it positively.

This is essentially a messianic thought, and let me clarify. maybe that helps with what is vague. When I say 'messianic thought', I don't mean a vision of Israel ruling the world, rather "and the families of the land will be blessed in You", which practically means advice. The Jewish vision of a corrected world is one where the families of nations are each expressing their own self, rather than canceling their historic and indigenous sovereignty, to align with a post-conflict reality in a world in which the knowledge of G-d covers it like water the oceans.

But frankly, recently that I saw Zelensky being put as president, raised all sorts alarms with me, mainly the well-being of the remnant diaspora in such an environment, after the televised opposition arrests by the Bandera gang, now they put a Jewish comedian on top..
That certainly serves these kind of conspiracies in the public, and exactly the expression of what I was alarmed about.

To sum it up - any nation can strive to build her own 'new Jerusalem', but this can only be achieved by acknowledging Jerusalem of the G-d of Israel. And that is not a vision of Jewish rule over foreign lands, rather of in-gathering of diaspora and advice as a sovereign nation to sovereign nations. Each nation with their 'new Jerusalem' and Israel as a nation of priests in their Jerusalem as allotted by the G-d of Israel.
In Halachic terms, we cannot serve at Your altars and temples, or build ours in foreign lands, but we are obligated, if You ask, to teach and assist in giving and offering, and even serve Your offerings in Jerusalem, if it is for the G-d of Israel.

And then Zelensky could be at most an emissary...but who knows, if Jerenovsky 'my father was a lawyer' says there's a conspiracy to make Ukraine a new Jerusalem, then it must be speaking at least to some in the diaspora, I already mentioned, this happened in a very likely environment, only without Zelensky, but very recently,

And that's why promotion and encouragement of the repatriation to Israel, from Your country is of top national priority, as opposed to what populist conspiracies say. The history of Odessa and Kiev will always remain Jewish, but so will also the latest burning of the people in the municipality centers. Many, if not most Soviet immigrants, when brought in private conversations are opposed to cooperation with Kiev.
I know that relations between the Ukrainians and Jews weren't cloudless, to put it mildly. So, I expected this sort of an answer. Thanks, anyway.

About Zelensky and your anxiety. You know, Poroshenko and Yatseniuk were also listed as Jews by some people. So, when Zelensky got the post nothing changed in this regard, actually.

I was very surprised to know that you lived in Ukraine. Two years is sufficient term to get some knowledge of the country and its society. Where did you live (if it isn't too personal question for you)?
This puts in some perspective I guess, thanks.

Never actually aimed to understand the politics of the country, beyond a single thing when it was clear they're going to split it. And yes during that trip I tried to more understand the culture, rather than specifically politics, see how the Jewish community lives. I was mainly in Kiev, while my cousin in the west, near the border with Poland, forgot the name of the town. We also traveled to he eastern separatist side to meet some folks in Donetsk and another town in the coal mine region.

Again I don't pretend to understand, but my impression overall was that You folks have Your own thing, but also a nation in the Slav civilization, like one of the main tribe, like the Belarus, and to extent like Israel the Arabs, and essentially the whole internal conflict, beyond all external influence was basically a natural post-Soviet identity crisis at the break of a new millennia.

What did You prefer at the time, the EU or Eurasia?
The EU of course. I am not a great fan of it and don't think Ukraine will join to it in the near future (if ever). But obviously, the political system it endorses is much more preferable for me than that of Eurasia's model.
San Tzu says that when in disadvantage and having no options to maneuver,
best is to hold at what there is, hold the position.

When returning home I've met a Jewish professor in the plane, he was going to visit his father in Israel, and himself built a career writing and teaching math around the world while living in Donetsk, but at the time having to move to Moscow and work low wage. He essentially told me that the country had everything to stand on its own and prosper, an especially fertile soil, which became apparent the more I traveled, lots of talent and intellect. And that essentially he was planning and hoping to return to work in his local university.

I didn't understand then nor really now, but found the people being overall open and not shy or pretentiously polite, which was comforting, in a way resembling middle eastern mentality.
 
Last edited:

P F Tinmore

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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
It just seems funny that people claim to be indigenous when they have no ancestors from that place.
Jewish civilization has no ancestry in Judea?
Yeah that's a smart argument...
That's not what I said.
 

rylah

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Messages
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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
It just seems funny that people claim to be indigenous when they have no ancestors from that place.
Jewish civilization has no ancestry in Judea?
Yeah that's a smart argument...
That's not what I said.
Neither has anything to do with the topic of discussion.
As already explained indigenous rights are not defined by personal ancestry, or land holding.
Rather a collective right to re-constitution of a distinct civilization in the land of its origin.

Otherwise an average American could claim the status over any indigenous tribe that fled to exile on the other side of the continent. Simply for holding the land and being a majority.
 
Last edited:

rylah

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Ryan Bellerose on Why Jews Are Indigenous to Israel

Ryan Bellerose, indigenous rights activist, on what it means to be indigenous,
as the Jews are to the land of Israel.

 

MartyNYC

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Are Jews Indigenous to the Land of Israel?

Dr Nan Greer, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Redlands explains
the international definition of indigenous rights.

P F Tinmore you found something funny
in the international definition of indigenous rights?
It just seems funny that people claim to be indigenous when they have no ancestors from that place.
Jewish civilization has no ancestry in Judea?
Yeah that's a smart argument...
That's not what I said.
Neither has anything to do with the topic of discussion.
As already explained indigenous rights are not defined by personal ancestry, or land holding.
Rather a collective right to re-constitution of a distinct civilization in the land of its origin.

Otherwise an average American could claim the status over any indigenous tribe that fled to exile on the other side of the continent. Simply for holding the land and being a majority.
Palestine originated as a Roman name imposed on Jews, referring to Jews’ Philistine foes, who were Greek. Unless “palestinians” are Jews, they’re not indigenous.
 

ESay

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think history has shown that lesson well, numerous times and especially recently. Some who were drawn by the Emancipation and a dream of equality through assimilation in Germany, tried to declare literally just what You've proposed. Which would be a healthy philosophical question for all nations, if they can build their own Jerusalem in their countries, but for Jews it's kinda like inviting problem, don't You think?
That is why I was talking not about living in some place as a 'closed' national and religious minority, but importing with themselves their culture and governance. Not assimilate Jews into some other culture but on the contrary, 'assimilate' this culture into Jewish.

I am not arguing about uniqueness of Jerusalem for the Jews. And not advocating it to be 'carried out' to some other place or be replaced by something.

By new Jerusalem I mean another country (in addition to Israel) being organized as a mainly Jewish state.
Frankly, not sure I understand.

Let me give personal example - my family on my father's side 22 generations returned from today's Iraq, but in the family tradition it's emphasized that they actually never left because their village was inside the promised border. Some managed to stay in today's Syria, some in Lebanon. Some others in Yemen who were exiled long before us, upon hearing of Shabtay Zvi sold their entire community property, wore Shabbat cloths and prepared to be lifted to Israel...

Let's put aside the 'religion talk' and look from a cultural, even legal perspective - there's no such cultural archetype, or legal mechanism. Jewish law itself is attached to a defined boundary. If nations would want to become subjects of Israeli rule, this can be done in a parliamentary monarchy, but there's a big question whether Jewish law that applies to the land of Israel can be applied there, i.e. if Jews can fulfill basic agricultural commandments and include it into the Sabbatical year and Jubilee, from which essentially stem the whole practical basis of the law, the essence of the Jewish archetypal connection to a specific land and her natural cycles.

There's no cultural archetype or mechanism, to expand cultural boundaries,
beyond land where Torah law doesn't apply fully to Jews.
Well, I can't articulate my idea properly, because I myself have only a vague vision of it. You maybe have a question of how this even came to my mind. I will explain. I live in a country where there are some amount of people who believe in a conspiracy that tells about a desire of the Jews to create in this country a second Israel.

I don't particularly take this into consideration seriously, but once I thought - well, maybe this isn't a bad idea as a whole. We as a nation aren't capable of creating and governing a prosperous state. And inviting 'overseas' rulers who once had connections to this land may help to resolve this. And this rulers shouldn't be enclosed community which live in a parallel reality.

This once happened in the history of our land, btw, and it had very good consequences.

But of course, that is only a pure theory now.
Wow, so many conflicting thoughts about this.
I actually lived in Your country for 2 years, when my cousin went to manage a factory opening, but never heard about this specific conspiracy being circulated in public. Such are commonly brought up as a blood libel, it's totally counter intuitive that someone perceives it positively.

This is essentially a messianic thought, and let me clarify. maybe that helps with what is vague. When I say 'messianic thought', I don't mean a vision of Israel ruling the world, rather "and the families of the land will be blessed in You", which practically means advice. The Jewish vision of a corrected world is one where the families of nations are each expressing their own self, rather than canceling their historic and indigenous sovereignty, to align with a post-conflict reality in a world in which the knowledge of G-d covers it like water the oceans.

But frankly, recently that I saw Zelensky being put as president, raised all sorts alarms with me, mainly the well-being of the remnant diaspora in such an environment, after the televised opposition arrests by the Bandera gang, now they put a Jewish comedian on top..
That certainly serves these kind of conspiracies in the public, and exactly the expression of what I was alarmed about.

To sum it up - any nation can strive to build her own 'new Jerusalem', but this can only be achieved by acknowledging Jerusalem of the G-d of Israel. And that is not a vision of Jewish rule over foreign lands, rather of in-gathering of diaspora and advice as a sovereign nation to sovereign nations. Each nation with their 'new Jerusalem' and Israel as a nation of priests in their Jerusalem as allotted by the G-d of Israel.
In Halachic terms, we cannot serve at Your altars and temples, or build ours in foreign lands, but we are obligated, if You ask, to teach and assist in giving and offering, and even serve Your offerings in Jerusalem, if it is for the G-d of Israel.

And then Zelensky could be at most an emissary...but who knows, if Jerenovsky 'my father was a lawyer' says there's a conspiracy to make Ukraine a new Jerusalem, then it must be speaking at least to some in the diaspora, I already mentioned, this happened in a very likely environment, only without Zelensky, but very recently,

And that's why promotion and encouragement of the repatriation to Israel, from Your country is of top national priority, as opposed to what populist conspiracies say. The history of Odessa and Kiev will always remain Jewish, but so will also the latest burning of the people in the municipality centers. Many, if not most Soviet immigrants, when brought in private conversations are opposed to cooperation with Kiev.
I know that relations between the Ukrainians and Jews weren't cloudless, to put it mildly. So, I expected this sort of an answer. Thanks, anyway.

About Zelensky and your anxiety. You know, Poroshenko and Yatseniuk were also listed as Jews by some people. So, when Zelensky got the post nothing changed in this regard, actually.

I was very surprised to know that you lived in Ukraine. Two years is sufficient term to get some knowledge of the country and its society. Where did you live (if it isn't too personal question for you)?
This puts in some perspective I guess, thanks.

Never actually aimed to understand the politics of the country, beyond a single thing when it was clear they're going to split it. And yes during that trip I tried to more understand the culture, rather than specifically politics, see how the Jewish community lives. I was mainly in Kiev, while my cousin in the west, near the border with Poland, forgot the name of the town. We also traveled to he eastern separatist side to meet some folks in Donetsk and another town in the coal mine region.

Again I don't pretend to understand, but my impression overall was that You folks have Your own thing, but also a nation in the Slav civilization, like one of the main tribe, like the Belarus, and to extent like Israel the Arabs, and essentially the whole internal conflict, beyond all external influence was basically a natural post-Soviet identity crisis at the break of a new millennia.

What did You prefer at the time, the EU or Eurasia?
The EU of course. I am not a great fan of it and don't think Ukraine will join to it in the near future (if ever). But obviously, the political system it endorses is much more preferable for me than that of Eurasia's model.
San Tzu says that when in disadvantage and having no options to maneuver,
best is to hold at what there is, hold the position.

When returning home I've met a Jewish professor in the plane, he was going to visit his father in Israel, and himself built a career writing and teaching math around the world while living in Donetsk, but at the time having to move to Moscow and work low wage. He essentially told me that the country had everything to stand on its own and prosper, an especially fertile soil, which became apparent the more I traveled, lots of talent and intellect. And that essentially he was planning and hoping to return to work in his local university.

I didn't understand then nor really now, but found the people being overall open and not shy or pretentiously polite, which was comforting, in a way resembling middle eastern mentality.
Not sure what you tried to say exactly quoting San Tzu.

Yes, the country has or had everything to become a prosperous state - fertile land, good geography, developed infrastructure and educated population. But the latter two advantages have been lost. We virtually became a nation of roustabouts.

You know, there was time when I was younger, when I also thought as many people here that the core reason of that is our corrupted so called elites. But now after 'growing up' and working in various fields I blame our mentality for all misfortunes.

Of course, there are talented people here. But they seek to realize themselves somewhere abroad, especially young generation. And I in no way blame them.
 

LA RAM FAN

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Palestine has been attacked, conquered, and occupied many times. It was also a center for trade. Caravans went through to Asia, Africa, and Europe. Many people came and went.

In the middle of all this there was a core group of people who stayed and put down roots. Palestine was a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious place where there was little animosity between peoples.

These are the People who became Palestinians when Palestine was released from Turkish rule after WWI.
Excellent stuff :thup:
 

P F Tinmore

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Palestine has been attacked, conquered, and occupied many times. It was also a center for trade. Caravans went through to Asia, Africa, and Europe. Many people came and went.

In the middle of all this there was a core group of people who stayed and put down roots. Palestine was a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious place where there was little animosity between peoples.

These are the People who became Palestinians when Palestine was released from Turkish rule after WWI.
Excellent stuff :thup:
The whole indigenous argument is stupid and cannot be resolved. Do we know who descended from the caveman? There is no way to know and it really doesn't matter.

The real criteria is who belongs in the land. If you boil down international law there is one basic fact. The people and the land are "married." The land belongs to its people and the people cannot be removed from their land.

The Palestinians (the people who lived in the territory that became Palestine in 1924) had lived there, uncontested, for hundreds of years. Most of the cities, towns, and villages in Palestine predate the Ottoman Empire.

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians and the Palestinians belong in Palestine.
 

MartyNYC

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Palestine has been attacked, conquered, and occupied many times. It was also a center for trade. Caravans went through to Asia, Africa, and Europe. Many people came and went.

In the middle of all this there was a core group of people who stayed and put down roots. Palestine was a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious place where there was little animosity between peoples.

These are the People who became Palestinians when Palestine was released from Turkish rule after WWI.
Excellent stuff :thup:
The whole indigenous argument is stupid and cannot be resolved. Do we know who descended from the caveman? There is no way to know and it really doesn't matter.

The real criteria is who belongs in the land. If you boil down international law there is one basic fact. The people and the land are "married." The land belongs to its people and the people cannot be removed from their land.

The Palestinians (the people who lived in the territory that became Palestine in 1924) had lived there, uncontested, for hundreds of years. Most of the cities, towns, and villages in Palestine predate the Ottoman Empire.

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians and the Palestinians belong in Palestine.
“Palestine” was a fictional Roman name for ancient Israel, referring to Jews’ “Philistine“ foes who were Greek. Later, Britain’s fictional name for the British Mandate that became the modern state of Israel. There was no place “palestine” in the Ottoman Empire. Jews were called “palestinians” by the British. “Palestine“ & “palestinian” are made-up European names.

Never in history has there been any place “palestine” founded by any “palestinian” people.


4370151A-9890-40E0-B9DF-A03B6220EE3C.jpeg
 
Last edited:

MartyNYC

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Palestine has been attacked, conquered, and occupied many times. It was also a center for trade. Caravans went through to Asia, Africa, and Europe. Many people came and went.

In the middle of all this there was a core group of people who stayed and put down roots. Palestine was a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious place where there was little animosity between peoples.

These are the People who became Palestinians when Palestine was released from Turkish rule after WWI.
Excellent stuff :thup:
The whole indigenous argument is stupid and cannot be resolved. Do we know who descended from the caveman? There is no way to know and it really doesn't matter.

The real criteria is who belongs in the land. If you boil down international law there is one basic fact. The people and the land are "married." The land belongs to its people and the people cannot be removed from their land.

The Palestinians (the people who lived in the territory that became Palestine in 1924) had lived there, uncontested, for hundreds of years. Most of the cities, towns, and villages in Palestine predate the Ottoman Empire.

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians and the Palestinians belong in Palestine.

BBC documentary: Jews’ rebellion in Judea (“land of the Jews”) against occupying Roman Empire about 2,000 years ago. There weren’t any “palestinians“—No such people existed.

 

P F Tinmore

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Palestine has been attacked, conquered, and occupied many times. It was also a center for trade. Caravans went through to Asia, Africa, and Europe. Many people came and went.

In the middle of all this there was a core group of people who stayed and put down roots. Palestine was a multi racial, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious place where there was little animosity between peoples.

These are the People who became Palestinians when Palestine was released from Turkish rule after WWI.
Excellent stuff :thup:
The whole indigenous argument is stupid and cannot be resolved. Do we know who descended from the caveman? There is no way to know and it really doesn't matter.

The real criteria is who belongs in the land. If you boil down international law there is one basic fact. The people and the land are "married." The land belongs to its people and the people cannot be removed from their land.

The Palestinians (the people who lived in the territory that became Palestine in 1924) had lived there, uncontested, for hundreds of years. Most of the cities, towns, and villages in Palestine predate the Ottoman Empire.

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians and the Palestinians belong in Palestine.
“Palestine” was a fictional Roman name for ancient Israel, referring to Jews’ “Philistine“ foes who were Greek. Later, Britain’s fictional name for the British Mandate that became the modern state of Israel. There was no place “palestine” in the Ottoman Empire. Jews were called “palestinians” by the British. “Palestine“ & “palestinian” are made-up European names.

Never in history has there been any place “palestine” founded by any “palestinian” people.


View attachment 344921
OK, so?

What did that have to do with my post?
 

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