P F Tinmore
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The UN disagrees with you. So do the Palestinians.
The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
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That's why I said this tree is mentally impaired and desperately needs a chainsaw...
Even the League of Nations, the puppet organization created by Britain and France to give a legal facade to their imperial ambitions recognised the human and civil rights of the arab population living west of the Jordan river when it included the Balfour Declaration in the Mandate:
His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
The Original Tree
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Please define Transjordan!
Sixties Fan
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There were more than Arabs and Jews living in the Mandate. Therefore your "civil rights of the Arab population" does not exist anywhere in the Balfour Declaration.
In 1920 TransJordan was part of the Mandate for Palestine, as the homeland for the Jewish people. By 1922, the British decided to give TranJordan to the ARAB Hashemites who had just been kicked out of Arabia.
And what did this Arabs do? Interfere with the civil and religious rights of all Jews who lived in TransJordan for thousands of years, and wrote a law prohibiting Jews from ever living there again.
Know history !
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
Mandatory Palestine
1920–1948
Everything outside of Mandatory Palestine and to The East of The Jordan can be settled by the so called Palestinians.
1920–1948
Everything outside of Mandatory Palestine and to The East of The Jordan can be settled by the so called Palestinians.
Sixties Fan
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There is another thread to discuss the creation of Israel and any Arab State. Thanks.Mandatory Palestine
1920–1948
Everything outside of Mandatory Palestine and to The East of The Jordan can be settled by the so called Palestinians.
All who lived in what became Mandatory Palestine were called
Palestinians from 1920 to 1948. The Arabs did not like being called Palestinians, then.
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
Transjordan The East Bank of The Jordan has always been the home of the so called Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian people living in The West Bank and Gaza who like to call themselves Palestinians.
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
The formation of Palestine has a lot to do with who is indigenous.
If anyone is Indigenous, it is the Jews who have settle The Promised Land for over 5,000 continuous years.
The Promised Land was Promised to Abraham, and Inherited to Isaac whom God renamed Israel.
There are no legitimate claims outside of that.
If anyone is Indigenous, it is the Jews who have settle The Promised Land for over 5,000 continuous years.
The Promised Land was Promised to Abraham, and Inherited to Isaac whom God renamed Israel.
There are no legitimate claims outside of that.
Sixties Fan
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I do not know where you got that .....
"Transjordan, The East Bank of The Jordan, has always been the home of the so called Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian people living in The West Bank and Gaza who like to call themselves Palestinians"
......from. You seem to be confusing some things and put them all together.
I will not go into it and try to unravel it.
Since there never was a people known as Palestinians before 1964 CE, I really do not know which source you got that saying from, as it has no validity to it at all.
And "always" for the Arabs began in the 7th Century CE after the Kurdish and Arab Muslim invasion.
Therefore, there hasn't been an "always" presence of those Arabs who now call themselves Palestinians, in Gaza, Areas A and B and even in Israel.
Sixties Fan
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You can move to the "Pale" as soon as you like.
Jews are Asians indigenous of the Land of Israel, and it does not matter how long they spent outside of Israel, they are still indigenous of that Land.
Are you telling me that Arabs who leave Arabia cannot ever be considered indigenous of that Peninsula again? Of course not.
And you do know that the same goes for people from anywhere else.
Irish, Italians, Apache, Aboriginals, Africans, so on and so forth.
But the endless game of "Jews from Europe are not really Jews" simply makes your heart beat faster, does it not?
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
That's not true either. Palestine is what The Roman Empire renamed Israel during their occupation of Israel before the time of Christ over 2,000 years ago. They called Israelis Palestinians at that time. And Israel and the area it was located in has been called Palestine since The Roman Empire occupied it, and The Empire Dissolved. If any argument can ever be made about who The Palestinians are, Hebrews or Israelis is the correct answer.
History of the Jews in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia
Regarding the last 100 years, The Balfour Declaration, and The Mandatory Palestine Declaration handed down by The High Commission of Palestine still referred to Israel as Palestine in general. But also with the 1917 Balfour Declaration, and High Commission of Palestine, and The Peele Commission they differentiated between The Hebrews already living in that area, and the Arabs living in that area.
But you are correct. There actually is not actual genetic population called Palestinians. It's more or less a general term like saying The Middle East, and refers to a locale, namely the general area of Israel and outlying lands and not an actual people.
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
From Wiki:
The history of the Jews in the Roman Empire traces the interaction of Jews and Romans during the period of the Roman Empire (27 BC – AD 476). Their cultures began to overlap in the centuries just before the Christian Era. Jews, as part of the Jewish diaspora, migrated to Rome and Roman Europe from the Land of Israel, Asia Minor, Babylon and Alexandria in response to economic hardship and incessant warfare over the land of Israel between the Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires. In Rome, Jewish communities enjoyed privileges and thrived economically, becoming a significant part of the Empire's population (perhaps as much as ten percent).[1]
The Roman general Pompey in his eastern campaign established the Roman province of Syria in 64 BC and conquered Jerusalem in 63 BC. Julius Caesar conquered Alexandria c. 47 BC and defeated Pompey in 45 BC. Under Julius Caesar, Judaism was officially recognised as a legal religion, a policy followed by the first Roman emperor, Augustus. Herod the Great was designated ‘King of the Jews’ by the Roman Senate in c. 40 BC, the Roman province of Egypt was established in 30 BC, and Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea (biblical Edom) were converted to the Roman province of Iudaea in 6 AD. Jewish-Roman tensions resulted in several Jewish–Roman wars, 66-135 AD, which resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple and institution of the Jewish Tax in 70 and Hadrian's attempt to create a new Roman colony named Aelia Capitolina c. 130.
Jewish–Roman wars[edit]
Main article: Jewish–Roman wars
Relief from the Arch of Titus in Rome depicting a menorah and other objects looted from the Temple of Jerusalem carried in a Roman triumph
In 66 AD, the First Jewish–Roman War began. The revolt was put down by the future Roman emperors Vespasian and Titus. In the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the Romans destroyed much of the Temple in Jerusalem and, according to some accounts, plundered artifacts from the Temple, such as the Menorah. Jews continued to live in their land in significant numbers, the Kitos War of 115-117 notwithstanding, until Julius Severus ravaged Judea while putting down the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132–136. 985 villages were destroyed and most of the Jewish population of central Judaea was essentially wiped out – killed, sold into slavery, or forced to flee.[8] Banished from Jerusalem, which was renamed Aelia Capitolina, the Jewish population now centered on Galilee,[9] initially at Yavneh.
After the Jewish-Roman wars (66–135), Hadrian changed the name of Iudaea province to Syria Palaestina and Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina in an attempt to erase the historical ties of the Jewish people to the region.[10]
In addition, after 70, Jews and Jewish Proselytes were only allowed to practice their religion if they paid the Jewish tax, and after 135 were barred from Jerusalem except for the day of Tisha B'Av.
History of the Jews in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia
The history of the Jews in the Roman Empire traces the interaction of Jews and Romans during the period of the Roman Empire (27 BC – AD 476). Their cultures began to overlap in the centuries just before the Christian Era. Jews, as part of the Jewish diaspora, migrated to Rome and Roman Europe from the Land of Israel, Asia Minor, Babylon and Alexandria in response to economic hardship and incessant warfare over the land of Israel between the Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires. In Rome, Jewish communities enjoyed privileges and thrived economically, becoming a significant part of the Empire's population (perhaps as much as ten percent).[1]
The Roman general Pompey in his eastern campaign established the Roman province of Syria in 64 BC and conquered Jerusalem in 63 BC. Julius Caesar conquered Alexandria c. 47 BC and defeated Pompey in 45 BC. Under Julius Caesar, Judaism was officially recognised as a legal religion, a policy followed by the first Roman emperor, Augustus. Herod the Great was designated ‘King of the Jews’ by the Roman Senate in c. 40 BC, the Roman province of Egypt was established in 30 BC, and Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea (biblical Edom) were converted to the Roman province of Iudaea in 6 AD. Jewish-Roman tensions resulted in several Jewish–Roman wars, 66-135 AD, which resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple and institution of the Jewish Tax in 70 and Hadrian's attempt to create a new Roman colony named Aelia Capitolina c. 130.
Jewish–Roman wars[edit]
Main article: Jewish–Roman wars
Relief from the Arch of Titus in Rome depicting a menorah and other objects looted from the Temple of Jerusalem carried in a Roman triumph
In 66 AD, the First Jewish–Roman War began. The revolt was put down by the future Roman emperors Vespasian and Titus. In the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the Romans destroyed much of the Temple in Jerusalem and, according to some accounts, plundered artifacts from the Temple, such as the Menorah. Jews continued to live in their land in significant numbers, the Kitos War of 115-117 notwithstanding, until Julius Severus ravaged Judea while putting down the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132–136. 985 villages were destroyed and most of the Jewish population of central Judaea was essentially wiped out – killed, sold into slavery, or forced to flee.[8] Banished from Jerusalem, which was renamed Aelia Capitolina, the Jewish population now centered on Galilee,[9] initially at Yavneh.
After the Jewish-Roman wars (66–135), Hadrian changed the name of Iudaea province to Syria Palaestina and Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina in an attempt to erase the historical ties of the Jewish people to the region.[10]
In addition, after 70, Jews and Jewish Proselytes were only allowed to practice their religion if they paid the Jewish tax, and after 135 were barred from Jerusalem except for the day of Tisha B'Av.
History of the Jews in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
So there you go. Calling Israel....... Palestine is an Attempt to ERASE THE HISTORICAL TIES of THE HEBREWS TO ISRAEL.
It's what The Roman Empire did it for. It's proven in History. They called the Hebrews, Palestinians and tried to exterminate them and used The Term Palestinian to refer to them in that way for the sole purposes of attempting to break their historical connections to The Promised Land by referring to them in a general derogatory term.
In other words to call the Promised Land, Israel.... Palestine is RACIST, DISCRIMINATORY, AND RECALLS GENOCIDE, AND ATTEMPTS TO NOT ONLY EXTERMINATE THE JEWS , BUT TO ERASE THEM FROM HISTORY AND ERASE THEIR TIES TO THE PROMISED LAND SPOKEN OF BY MOSES GIVEN UNTO ABRAHAM.
It's what The Roman Empire did it for. It's proven in History. They called the Hebrews, Palestinians and tried to exterminate them and used The Term Palestinian to refer to them in that way for the sole purposes of attempting to break their historical connections to The Promised Land by referring to them in a general derogatory term.
In other words to call the Promised Land, Israel.... Palestine is RACIST, DISCRIMINATORY, AND RECALLS GENOCIDE, AND ATTEMPTS TO NOT ONLY EXTERMINATE THE JEWS , BUT TO ERASE THEM FROM HISTORY AND ERASE THEIR TIES TO THE PROMISED LAND SPOKEN OF BY MOSES GIVEN UNTO ABRAHAM.
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Sixties Fan
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The Romans name Judea and the area, Israel, Palestine after the 135 CE defeat of Bar Kochba, which was about 100 years AFTER the time of Jesus.
Yes, the people who lived there were Jews, plus a few others, like Greeks, etc. But no Arabs, as the Arabs are trying to say now.
We have no disagreements there.
There is no genetic population called Palestinians, but the Arab leaders and the KGB chose in 1964, to adopt that name (national identity) more in order to confuse the idea that the Arabs are the true indigenous people of the area, and not the descendants of the Hebrews and Israelites.
The Jewish People have not called themselves Hebrews since Israel first came to be 3000 years ago, with King David.
During Roman times they were known as Judeans, or Jews.
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
They should call themselves Hebrews again.The Romans name Judea and the area, Israel, Palestine after the 135 CE defeat of Bar Kochba, which was about 100 years AFTER the time of Jesus.
Yes, the people who lived there were Jews, plus a few others, like Greeks, etc. But no Arabs, as the Arabs are trying to say now.
We have no disagreements there.
There is no genetic population called Palestinians, but the Arab leaders and the KGB chose in 1964, to adopt that name (national identity) more in order to confuse the idea that the Arabs are the true indigenous people of the area, and not the descendants of the Hebrews and Israelites.
The Jewish People have not called themselves Hebrews since Israel first came to be 3000 years ago, with King David.
During Roman times they were known as Judeans, or Jews.
You are correct to say there were NO ARABS in Israel until around 650 AD when The Roman Empire was dissolving. The Hebrews inhabited Israel long before that. The Babylonian Captivity was a full 1,200 years before that.
Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked The Hebrews living in The Promised Land and led many Jews in to Captivity.
Were Hebrews ever slaves in ancient Egypt? Yes
Starting over 4,000 years ago, Semites began crossing the deserts from Palestine into Egypt. The tomb of the high priest Khnumhotep II of the 20th century BCE even shows a scene of Semitic traders bringing offerings to the dead (top picture).
Some of these Semites came to Egypt as traders and immigrants. Others were prisoners of war, and yet others were sold into slavery by their own people. A papyrus mentions a wealthy Egyptian lord whose 77 slaves included 48 of Semitic origin.
Physical evidence of slaves working there isn't likely to have survived. But a leather scroll dating to the time of Ramesses II (1303 BCE-1213 BCE) describes a close account of brick-making apparently by enslaved prisoners of war from an area that can roughly be deduced to be Israel which sounds very much like the biblical account. The scroll describes 40 taskmasters, each with a daily target of 2,000 bricks (see Exodus 5:6).
I call The Israelis Hebrews, because It was The Hebrews who survived The Babylonian and Assyrian Captivities, and they were called Hebrews initially when Rome began to occupy Israel.
Both The Term Jew....from Judea, and Palestine and Palestinian are Greco Roman Terms given to The Hebrews-Israelis. It is more correct then to call a Jew a Hebrew or an Israeli, and to call their Religion Judaism which is the Roman Term they adopted for their religion when many of them lived in Rome and were 'Helenized'. It is still ok to call a Hebrew, or Israeli a Jew, but when you do so, you are referring then more to their religion than their ethnicity.
IT IS NEVER OK to call a Hebrew-Israeli a Palestinian, nor is it ever OK to call Israel Palestine, as that is actually a Racial Slur similar to calling a Black Man the "N" word.
This is why certain peoples love using the word Palestine, and Palestinian as it is an insult to Jewish Peoples, and it has Racist Undertones, and Racist Overtones.
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Sixties Fan
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I am sorry. You may be confusing history of other people with the history of the early Hebrews.They should call themselves Hebrews again.The Romans name Judea and the area, Israel, Palestine after the 135 CE defeat of Bar Kochba, which was about 100 years AFTER the time of Jesus.
Yes, the people who lived there were Jews, plus a few others, like Greeks, etc. But no Arabs, as the Arabs are trying to say now.
We have no disagreements there.
There is no genetic population called Palestinians, but the Arab leaders and the KGB chose in 1964, to adopt that name (national identity) more in order to confuse the idea that the Arabs are the true indigenous people of the area, and not the descendants of the Hebrews and Israelites.
The Jewish People have not called themselves Hebrews since Israel first came to be 3000 years ago, with King David.
During Roman times they were known as Judeans, or Jews.
You are correct to say there were NO ARABS in Israel until around 650 AD when The Roman Empire was dissolving. The Hebrews inhabited Israel long before that. The Babylonian Captivity was a full 1,200 years before that.
Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked Israel and led many Jews in to Captivity.
Were Hebrews ever slaves in ancient Egypt? Yes
Starting over 4,000 years ago, Semites began crossing the deserts from Palestine into Egypt. The tomb of the high priest Khnumhotep II of the 20th century BCE even shows a scene of Semitic traders bringing offerings to the dead (top picture).
Some of these Semites came to Egypt as traders and immigrants. Others were prisoners of war, and yet others were sold into slavery by their own people. A papyrus mentions a wealthy Egyptian lord whose 77 slaves included 48 of Semitic origin.
Physical evidence of slaves working there isn't likely to have survived. But a leather scroll dating to the time of Ramesses II (1303 BCE-1213 BCE) describes a close account of brick-making apparently by enslaved prisoners of war from an area that can roughly be deduced to be Israel which sounds very much like the biblical account. The scroll describes 40 taskmasters, each with a daily target of 2,000 bricks (see Exodus 5:6).
I call The Israelis Hebrews, because It was The Hebrews who survived The Babylonian and Assyrian Captivities, and they were called Hebrews initially when Rome began to occupy Israel.
Both The Term Jew....from Judea, and Palestine and Palestinian are Greco Roman Terms given to The Hebrews-Israelis. It is more correct then to call a Jew a Hebrew or an Israeli, and to call their Religion Judaism which is the Roman Term they adopted for their religion when many of them lived in Rome and were 'Helenized'. It is still ok to call a Hebrew, or Israeli a Jew, but when you do so, you are referring then more to their religion than their ethnicity.
IT IS NEVER OK to call a Hebrew-Israeli a Palestinian, nor is it ever OK to call Israel Palestine, as that is actually a Racial Slur similar to calling a Black Man the "N" word.
This is why certain peoples love using the word Palestine, and Palestinian as it is an insult to Jewish Peoples, and it has Racist Undertones, and Racist Overtones.
{Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked Israel and led many Jews in to Captivity.}
No such thing happened.
4000 years ago, Israel as a Nation did not exist. Abraham had not yet moved to Canaan, and Judaism had not been founded.
The Hebrews, the 12 tribes, became slaves after going to Egypt due to a draught. The whole area of Canaan was controlled by Egypt, then. At first they stayed there as free people, then a Pharaoh decided to enslave them. It is written in Genesis.
You may be answering Jose, so I will leave you to it.
Actually, there is no point in explaining anything to him. His mind is set on denying the Jewish connection to their ancestors and their ancient homeland.
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
I am sorry. You may be confusing history of other people with the history of the early Hebrews.They should call themselves Hebrews again.The Romans name Judea and the area, Israel, Palestine after the 135 CE defeat of Bar Kochba, which was about 100 years AFTER the time of Jesus.
Yes, the people who lived there were Jews, plus a few others, like Greeks, etc. But no Arabs, as the Arabs are trying to say now.
We have no disagreements there.
There is no genetic population called Palestinians, but the Arab leaders and the KGB chose in 1964, to adopt that name (national identity) more in order to confuse the idea that the Arabs are the true indigenous people of the area, and not the descendants of the Hebrews and Israelites.
The Jewish People have not called themselves Hebrews since Israel first came to be 3000 years ago, with King David.
During Roman times they were known as Judeans, or Jews.
You are correct to say there were NO ARABS in Israel until around 650 AD when The Roman Empire was dissolving. The Hebrews inhabited Israel long before that. The Babylonian Captivity was a full 1,200 years before that.
Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked Israel and led many Jews in to Captivity.
Were Hebrews ever slaves in ancient Egypt? Yes
Starting over 4,000 years ago, Semites began crossing the deserts from Palestine into Egypt. The tomb of the high priest Khnumhotep II of the 20th century BCE even shows a scene of Semitic traders bringing offerings to the dead (top picture).
Some of these Semites came to Egypt as traders and immigrants. Others were prisoners of war, and yet others were sold into slavery by their own people. A papyrus mentions a wealthy Egyptian lord whose 77 slaves included 48 of Semitic origin.
Physical evidence of slaves working there isn't likely to have survived. But a leather scroll dating to the time of Ramesses II (1303 BCE-1213 BCE) describes a close account of brick-making apparently by enslaved prisoners of war from an area that can roughly be deduced to be Israel which sounds very much like the biblical account. The scroll describes 40 taskmasters, each with a daily target of 2,000 bricks (see Exodus 5:6).
I call The Israelis Hebrews, because It was The Hebrews who survived The Babylonian and Assyrian Captivities, and they were called Hebrews initially when Rome began to occupy Israel.
Both The Term Jew....from Judea, and Palestine and Palestinian are Greco Roman Terms given to The Hebrews-Israelis. It is more correct then to call a Jew a Hebrew or an Israeli, and to call their Religion Judaism which is the Roman Term they adopted for their religion when many of them lived in Rome and were 'Helenized'. It is still ok to call a Hebrew, or Israeli a Jew, but when you do so, you are referring then more to their religion than their ethnicity.
IT IS NEVER OK to call a Hebrew-Israeli a Palestinian, nor is it ever OK to call Israel Palestine, as that is actually a Racial Slur similar to calling a Black Man the "N" word.
This is why certain peoples love using the word Palestine, and Palestinian as it is an insult to Jewish Peoples, and it has Racist Undertones, and Racist Overtones.
{Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked Israel and led many Jews in to Captivity.}
No such thing happened.
4000 years ago, Israel as a Nation did not exist. Abraham had not yet moved to Canaan, and Judaism had not been founded.
The Hebrews, the 12 tribes, became slaves after going to Egypt due to a draught. The whole area of Canaan was controlled by Egypt, then. At first they stayed there as free people, then a Pharaoh decided to enslave them. It is written in Genesis.
You may be answering Jose, so I will leave you to it.
Actually, there is no point in explaining anything to him. His mind is set on denying the Jewish connection to their ancestors and their ancient homeland.
I changed my post to defer to your sensitivity for dotted "i" and crossed 't' to Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked The Hebrews living in The Promised Land and led many Hebrews in to Captivity.
All better now?
The reference to 4,000 years ago was a citation from a web page about History. So, my bad, but you can take that up with them.
The Merneptah Stele, which states: "Israel is laid waste, its seed is no more." Not quite
The Merneptah Stele—also known as the Israel Stele or the Victory Stele of Merneptah—is an inscription by the ancient Egyptian Pharaoh Merneptah (reign: 1213 to 1203 BC) discovered by Flinders Petrie in 1896 at Thebes, and now housed in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.
Discovered: 1896
Created: c. 1208 BC
Present location: Egyptian Museum, Cairo
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
So, 1,200 BC, 3,219 years ago The Term Israel was used by Egypt when they commemorated a major military victory over them.
Care to tell me again, how "ISRAEL" did not exist 4,000 years ago? If the term "Israel" was used 3,200 years ago in a commemoration of a victory over "Israel" then "Israel" most likely existed as a nation 4,000 years ago.
Here is another quote from that page:
Clues to Israelite presence in Egypt
Conclusively, Semitic slaves there were. However, critics argue there's no archaeological evidence of a Semitic tribe worshiping Yahweh in Egypt.
Because of the muddy conditions of the East Delta, almost no papyri have survived – but those that did, may provide further clues in the search for the lost Israelites.
The papyrus Anastasi VI from around 3200 years ago describes how the Egyptian authorities allowed a group of Semitic nomads from Edom who worshiped Yahweh to pass the border-fortress in the region of Tjeku (Wadi Tumilat) and proceed with their livestock to the lakes of Pithom.
Interestng HUH? So wait, There was a Stele depicting a Military Victory over ISRAEL, 3,200 years ago, and then a Papyrus from 3,200 years ago that talks about Egypt allowing a group of semetic people to Worship Yaweh. So many of these people had to be CAPTIVES of that Military Victory over "ISRAEL"
NOW lets ask if MOSES Existed?
According to the scribe Manetho, the founder of monotheism was Osarisph, who later adopted name Moses, and led his followers out of Egypt in Akhenaten's reign. Akhenaten was the heretic Pharaoh who abolished polytheism and replaced it with monotheism, worshiping only the sun disc, Aten.
In 1987, a team of French archaeologists discovered the tomb of a man named Aper-el or Aperia (his name is spelled both ways in Egyptian inscriptions), commander of the charioteers and vizier to Ahmenotep II and to his son Akhenaten.
The vizier's name ending in -el could well be related to the Hebraic god Elohim; and the ending Aper-Ia could be indicative of Ya, short for Yahweh. This interpretation supports the argument that Hebrews were present in Egypt during the 18th dynasty starting 3,600 years ago (1543-1292 BCE).
So did the Exodus happen? Ask Hatshepsut
Ex. 12:37 says “600,000 men on foot, beside children” went out from Egypt. That extrapolates to around two million people making the exodus (extrapolated from Numbers 1:46) .
If around 2 million people left Egypt, when the entire population has been estimated at around 3 to 4.5 million, it would have been noticed, and would have resounded in Egyptian records.
Note that Herodotus claims that a million Persians invaded Greece in 480 BCE. The numbers were undoubtedly exaggerated, as in most ancient records. But nobody claims the invasion of Greece never happened.
That said, as the Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen points out, the Hebrew word for thousand, eleph, can mean different things depending upon context. It can even denote a group/clan or a leader/chief. Elsewhere in the bible, "eleph" could not possibly mean "a thousand”. For example: 1 Kings 20:30 mentions a wall falling in Aphek that killed 27,000 men. If we translate eleph as leader, the text more sensibly says that 27 officers were killed by the falling wall. Bv that logic, some scholars propose that the Exodus actually consisted of about 20,000 people.
The absence of evidence of a sojourn in the wilderness proves nothing. A Semitic group in flight wouldn't have left direct evidence: They would not have built cities, built monuments or done anything but leave footprints in the desert sand.
Yet more support for the Haggadah may lie in an interesting poem copied onto a papyrus dating to the 13th century BCE (although original is believed to be much older), called the "Admonitions of Impuwer or the Lord of All").
River of blood
It portrays a devastated Egypt haunted by plagues, droughts, violent uprisings – culminating in the escape of slaves with Egypt's wealth. In short, the Impuwer papyrus seems to be telling the story of Exodus from the Egyptian point of view, from a river of blood to the devastation of the livestock to darkness.
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Sixties Fan
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Do you have a link to that site where it says that Egypt invaded Israel 4000 years ago?I am sorry. You may be confusing history of other people with the history of the early Hebrews.They should call themselves Hebrews again.The Romans name Judea and the area, Israel, Palestine after the 135 CE defeat of Bar Kochba, which was about 100 years AFTER the time of Jesus.
Yes, the people who lived there were Jews, plus a few others, like Greeks, etc. But no Arabs, as the Arabs are trying to say now.
We have no disagreements there.
There is no genetic population called Palestinians, but the Arab leaders and the KGB chose in 1964, to adopt that name (national identity) more in order to confuse the idea that the Arabs are the true indigenous people of the area, and not the descendants of the Hebrews and Israelites.
The Jewish People have not called themselves Hebrews since Israel first came to be 3000 years ago, with King David.
During Roman times they were known as Judeans, or Jews.
You are correct to say there were NO ARABS in Israel until around 650 AD when The Roman Empire was dissolving. The Hebrews inhabited Israel long before that. The Babylonian Captivity was a full 1,200 years before that.
Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked Israel and led many Jews in to Captivity.
Were Hebrews ever slaves in ancient Egypt? Yes
Starting over 4,000 years ago, Semites began crossing the deserts from Palestine into Egypt. The tomb of the high priest Khnumhotep II of the 20th century BCE even shows a scene of Semitic traders bringing offerings to the dead (top picture).
Some of these Semites came to Egypt as traders and immigrants. Others were prisoners of war, and yet others were sold into slavery by their own people. A papyrus mentions a wealthy Egyptian lord whose 77 slaves included 48 of Semitic origin.
Physical evidence of slaves working there isn't likely to have survived. But a leather scroll dating to the time of Ramesses II (1303 BCE-1213 BCE) describes a close account of brick-making apparently by enslaved prisoners of war from an area that can roughly be deduced to be Israel which sounds very much like the biblical account. The scroll describes 40 taskmasters, each with a daily target of 2,000 bricks (see Exodus 5:6).
I call The Israelis Hebrews, because It was The Hebrews who survived The Babylonian and Assyrian Captivities, and they were called Hebrews initially when Rome began to occupy Israel.
Both The Term Jew....from Judea, and Palestine and Palestinian are Greco Roman Terms given to The Hebrews-Israelis. It is more correct then to call a Jew a Hebrew or an Israeli, and to call their Religion Judaism which is the Roman Term they adopted for their religion when many of them lived in Rome and were 'Helenized'. It is still ok to call a Hebrew, or Israeli a Jew, but when you do so, you are referring then more to their religion than their ethnicity.
IT IS NEVER OK to call a Hebrew-Israeli a Palestinian, nor is it ever OK to call Israel Palestine, as that is actually a Racial Slur similar to calling a Black Man the "N" word.
This is why certain peoples love using the word Palestine, and Palestinian as it is an insult to Jewish Peoples, and it has Racist Undertones, and Racist Overtones.
{Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked Israel and led many Jews in to Captivity.}
No such thing happened.
4000 years ago, Israel as a Nation did not exist. Abraham had not yet moved to Canaan, and Judaism had not been founded.
The Hebrews, the 12 tribes, became slaves after going to Egypt due to a draught. The whole area of Canaan was controlled by Egypt, then. At first they stayed there as free people, then a Pharaoh decided to enslave them. It is written in Genesis.
You may be answering Jose, so I will leave you to it.
Actually, there is no point in explaining anything to him. His mind is set on denying the Jewish connection to their ancestors and their ancient homeland.
I changed my post to defer to your sensitivity for dotted "i" and crossed 't' to Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked The Hebrews living in The Promised Land and led many Hebrews in to Captivity.
All better now?
The reference to 4,000 years ago was a citation from a web page about History. So, my bad, but you can take that up with them.
Thanks.
The Original Tree
Diamond Member
Do you have a link to that site where it says that Egypt invaded Israel 4000 years ago?I am sorry. You may be confusing history of other people with the history of the early Hebrews.They should call themselves Hebrews again.The Romans name Judea and the area, Israel, Palestine after the 135 CE defeat of Bar Kochba, which was about 100 years AFTER the time of Jesus.
Yes, the people who lived there were Jews, plus a few others, like Greeks, etc. But no Arabs, as the Arabs are trying to say now.
We have no disagreements there.
There is no genetic population called Palestinians, but the Arab leaders and the KGB chose in 1964, to adopt that name (national identity) more in order to confuse the idea that the Arabs are the true indigenous people of the area, and not the descendants of the Hebrews and Israelites.
The Jewish People have not called themselves Hebrews since Israel first came to be 3000 years ago, with King David.
During Roman times they were known as Judeans, or Jews.
You are correct to say there were NO ARABS in Israel until around 650 AD when The Roman Empire was dissolving. The Hebrews inhabited Israel long before that. The Babylonian Captivity was a full 1,200 years before that.
Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked Israel and led many Jews in to Captivity.
Were Hebrews ever slaves in ancient Egypt? Yes
Starting over 4,000 years ago, Semites began crossing the deserts from Palestine into Egypt. The tomb of the high priest Khnumhotep II of the 20th century BCE even shows a scene of Semitic traders bringing offerings to the dead (top picture).
Some of these Semites came to Egypt as traders and immigrants. Others were prisoners of war, and yet others were sold into slavery by their own people. A papyrus mentions a wealthy Egyptian lord whose 77 slaves included 48 of Semitic origin.
Physical evidence of slaves working there isn't likely to have survived. But a leather scroll dating to the time of Ramesses II (1303 BCE-1213 BCE) describes a close account of brick-making apparently by enslaved prisoners of war from an area that can roughly be deduced to be Israel which sounds very much like the biblical account. The scroll describes 40 taskmasters, each with a daily target of 2,000 bricks (see Exodus 5:6).
I call The Israelis Hebrews, because It was The Hebrews who survived The Babylonian and Assyrian Captivities, and they were called Hebrews initially when Rome began to occupy Israel.
Both The Term Jew....from Judea, and Palestine and Palestinian are Greco Roman Terms given to The Hebrews-Israelis. It is more correct then to call a Jew a Hebrew or an Israeli, and to call their Religion Judaism which is the Roman Term they adopted for their religion when many of them lived in Rome and were 'Helenized'. It is still ok to call a Hebrew, or Israeli a Jew, but when you do so, you are referring then more to their religion than their ethnicity.
IT IS NEVER OK to call a Hebrew-Israeli a Palestinian, nor is it ever OK to call Israel Palestine, as that is actually a Racial Slur similar to calling a Black Man the "N" word.
This is why certain peoples love using the word Palestine, and Palestinian as it is an insult to Jewish Peoples, and it has Racist Undertones, and Racist Overtones.
{Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked Israel and led many Jews in to Captivity.}
No such thing happened.
4000 years ago, Israel as a Nation did not exist. Abraham had not yet moved to Canaan, and Judaism had not been founded.
The Hebrews, the 12 tribes, became slaves after going to Egypt due to a draught. The whole area of Canaan was controlled by Egypt, then. At first they stayed there as free people, then a Pharaoh decided to enslave them. It is written in Genesis.
You may be answering Jose, so I will leave you to it.
Actually, there is no point in explaining anything to him. His mind is set on denying the Jewish connection to their ancestors and their ancient homeland.
I changed my post to defer to your sensitivity for dotted "i" and crossed 't' to Around 4,000 years ago Egypt attacked The Hebrews living in The Promised Land and led many Hebrews in to Captivity.
All better now?
The reference to 4,000 years ago was a citation from a web page about History. So, my bad, but you can take that up with them.
Thanks.
It was provided in the previous post #2516
Where Hebrew Slaves ever in Egypt?
I also provided evidence that Egypt used the term Israel when commemorating a major military victory over them. 3,200 years ago, all in the post immediately above your last post. # 2518
So we know historically that the term "Israel" has been in use for at least 3,200 years, and most likely for the past 4,000 years just like I said.
After all Isaac, The Son of Abraham had a son named Jacob and Jacob had his name changed to Israel by Yahweh Himself
Israel The Nation is named after Jacob, and Jacob was renamed Israel by Yahweh.
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 32:22-32 - Contemporary English Version
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