The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[elektra]

It is obvious the OP is against killing men and women and children if they start a war with us

Bullshit. Nothing he has said indicates this simple idea. Try to have an honest discussion.

Actully, the OP has said we should not of killed Women and Children. That much is pure fact. So, when the war machine is surrounded by women and children, the men are safe to fight the war.

An honest discussion? We are discussing someone's opinion that the USA is morally wrong? We are discussing a persons selective slices of history to make a point that is not true. There is no honesty in revisionism.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Actully, the OP has said we should not of killed Women and Children.

Yes, with an indiscriminate nuke that he deemed unnecessary. And you leaving that part out is very dishonest and transparent. So you arent doing your own credibility any favors.

 

[elektra]

No, it's discussion. Unless you are just content to say "Nuh uh!", which i suppose is fine. But then you're out of the discussion.

This comment puts you out of the discussion. You just literally, stated, Nuh uh.
Besides, you are a thief, I say you are, now prove you robbed nobody in the middle of the night.

 

[elektra]

Actully, the OP has said we should not of killed Women and Children.

Yes, with an indiscriminate nuke that he deemed unnecessary. And you leaving that part out is very dishonest and transparent. So you arent doing your own credibility any favors.

The nuke was not indiscriminate, it destroyed exactly what we knew and wanted it to destroy. I must repeat the entire OP? You know what he spoke of, I knew, now it is you who are being dishonest. Your own credibility is now destroyed by your hypocrisy.

 

[mudwhistle]

Hey. I've read books on the subject. Nagasaki was deemed necessary to convince the Japanese that we had more than one bomb.

A bomb detoneated anywhere the japanese could confirm it would have sufficed, in that case. So that is not a good argument.

Yeah......keep thinking that.

 

[elektra]

What I have learned in this OP
It was morally wrong to end the War with Atomic bombs because the Japanese were very much starving to death. They were at the end of their rope. All we had to do is keep them surrounded, starving, becoming diseased. All we had to do is wait for their children to starve to death. It was over. That could of taken only a few more months? Maybe a half a year. But eventually, they would starve to death.

And this was the humane way to end the war. To starve a entire country, the children, the babies, everyone?

 

[Jarlaxle]

Did it save lives?

I believe it did. I cannot point to some study or survey for definitive proof, but I do believe the second bomb proved to the Japanese thst we could recreate the destructive force of Hiroshima and force them to accept unconditional surrender. Without the Nagasaki attack I’m not so sure they wouldn’t have continued to fight on for longer, until we did utilize the second device.

Even after thebsecond bomb, surrender nearly got Hirohito assassinated!

 

[Andylusion]

I for one, based on what I've read, and first hand accounts of Japan leading up to, and during WW2... am I absolutely convinced that millions would have died if Japan had refused to surrender, and we had landed on the mainland in a state of war. Millions. Guaranteed.

That's nice.

The reality. Japan was out of war materials, most of their Navy was sunk, they had expended all their aircraft as Kamikazes to very little effect, and most of their experienced Army divisions were trapped in China.

SOOOOOOO, what they had were civilians with pitchforks. They were desperate to surrender, and that's what they did once the USSR got into it and they had no chance for a negotiated settlement that allowed them to keep some of their colonies.

Then why were the civilians being trained to attack US soldiers with pitch forks? Why would I train my civilians to attack enemy troops in waves, if my goal was surrender?

That does not follow.

And again, I have no doubt that Japan was out of substantial military hardware. That wasn't even a question. In fact, that's part of the reason why they were preparing to throw civilians at military soldiers.

The problem is, you seem to be ignoring what happened on Okinawa and Iwo Jima. Which is... those Japanese troops fought without supply, almost no food, no water, and were coming out to our troops with nothing more than grenades often.... and they still... STILL fought to the bitter end.

So you can say they would have surrendered in a day or two without the bombs.... and that's a nice thought.... and you might be even right. It's impossible to say definitively what would happen in the counter factual.

Again, you have to look at it from the perspective of the people there, are that time. What we knew about the Japanese, is that soldiers literally starving to death, with zero support, and no supplies, were still fighting US troops for every square inch of Japanese islands. We had no reason to believe they were going to just give up. And every evidence that they would throw school girls with pitch forks at US troops, which would have been devastating to both sides.

'I Will Fight to the Last': WWII Japanese Soldier Diary, June 1943

Father repeated in his letter that I must fight to the last as an honorable warrior. I will fight to the last, always for the emperor. I will show them that we will fight to the last. March 6: “There is nothing quite so doubtful as to whether life or death be with one, yet we write at random like searching and traversing a battlefield.” March 31: “Pray for cherished glory.” My aged father wrote on April 12: “Even though your soul should remain in the South Sea Islands, follow the will of Heaven.”​

Japanese soldiers diary.

Whether they would have surrendered or not, I don't know for sure. But every indication is that they had absolutely no intention of surrendering.

 

[elektra]

History is full of facts. We are fortunate to know what happened by well written books. Books written during and immediately after the War.

In Japan, the military took control of the government. Period. There was still the Emperor, who went along with much, at least until the end. The specifics and context of what was happening in Japan is obscured by cherry picking the little parts that one uses to revise the history.

Within any population, there are always number for and against. Good people and bad people. The innocent and the guilty.

Facts are facts. Our lives were more important than that of any Japanese. We must see this from our position. That of those who were attacked. We had men dying until the end. Even the day of the surrender there were prisoners dying.

I am glad Pappy Gregg Boyington was saved from death in a jap torture camp.

I am glad Louis Zamperini was saved from certain death.

That is the fact of history. Speculation on alternative realities is simply foolishness.

 

[Unkotare]

, not to mention the fact that the bomb should not have been dropped on a civilian target,

Civilian target, Japan's cities were part of the war. They had military headquarters. Centers of communications. Transportation links. Industry manufacturing war materials. Ship yards to repair warships. Shall I make a list for you?

The person you are trying to convince is yourself.

 

[Mr Natural]

The Japanese were crazy back in the day.

The A bomb droppings cured them of that affliction.

 

[elektra]

The person you are trying to convince is yourself.

Convince you of a fact, I would have more luck trying to convince the neighbor's cat. Some discussions are only for the intelligent.

 

[harmonica]

a lot of these people think of War in terms of TV/Movies = idiocy

 

[justinacolmena]

Surely it was obscene for us to nuke Nagasaki just three days, 72 hours, after we had nuked Hiroshima.

It was the geisha houses.

“Geisha” is “service,” as in “customer service.”

Certainly not a vulgarity in and of itself in the appropriate context.

But there was too much of a “house” or establishment to the ideals of “service” or hospitality.

The restaurants took over the grocery stores, and the bars & taverns took over the liquor stores.

Hotels & motels took over apartments, and renting took over homeownership, made impractical by Henry Ford style 100-year mortgages.

Too much bedding and breakfasting, and not enough getting to work on time in the morning.

And the gentlemen, of course, had certain expectations of services that were highly inappropriate.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It would have made Fallujah look like a playground.

Says who? These figures that came out saying, "Millions of Casualties" didn't come out until the war and the government had to justify why it vaporized hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Liar

 

[RetiredGySgt]

General MacArthur is awaiting your call, Rain Man.

LINK? to something other then an un sourced book.

There are several threads many hundreds of pages long full of evidence that you ignored while in Rain Man mode. Go eat your Jell-O.

Again FUCKWAD you have NEVER linked to actual documents just un sourced books and opinions.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

What an absolute load of crap. "All the Japanese people I have spoken to" = fabricated bullshit. Pilots dropping incendiary bombs unable to BBQ because of the smell of burning flesh - as they flew by high and fast = poor fiction. Kids 'training' with bamboo spears was meant to be propaganda for domestic consumption to bolster rapidly waning public support for an obviously lost cause. That you are still swallowing propaganda that wasn't even meant for you over 70 years ago suggests you are a remarkably gullible buffoon.

YOU LYIMG PIECE of human excrement, the Japanese REFUSED to surrender I have documents to prove it, they also cut bamboo and made bamboo spears fpr the civilian population to human wave attack the invaders that is NOT propaganda they were training them to do it.

Dementia has overtaken you, Rain Man. We've been through all this several times before.

Ya and all you have are opinion pieces while I have ACTUAL Government documents.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Actully, the OP has said we should not of killed Women and Children.

Yes, with an indiscriminate nuke that he deemed unnecessary. And you leaving that part out is very dishonest and transparent. So you arent doing your own credibility any favors.

So a Nuke is bad but firebombing cities was fine right?

 

[sparky]

that's one of the most insane/idiotic posts I've ever read

And yours is one of the most laughably uninformed, head-in-the-sand posts I've read. Have you heard of Stimson's diary, where he talks about FDR saying that we needed to maneuver Japan into firing the first shot? Have you heard of the McCollum Memo, which laid out a strategy for provoking Japan to war, and that even said that if the steps could provoke Japan to war it would be "all the better"? Have you heard of the declassified FBI Hoover-Ladd memos, where we learn that Army Intelligence knew "almost the entire plans" for the attack on Pearl Harbor days before the attack? Have you heard of Admiral Raneft's diary, where he talks about U.S. Navy Intelligence advising him that there was a Japanese fleet a few hundred miles from Pearl Harbor? Have you heard of the intercepted phone conversation between FDR and Churchill, where Churchill warned FDR that British Intelligence had intercepted Japanese naval messages that indicated Pearl Harbor would be attacked? (This fact was confirmed by former CIA Director William Casey in his memoir, by the way.) Have you heard of any of these things?

Here are some books you might wanna read:

James Johns, Reassessing Pearl Harbor: Scapegoats, a False Hero and the Myth of Surprise Attack

Dr. George Victor, The Pearl Harbor Myth: Rethinking the Unthinkable

Dr. Timothy Wilford, Pearl Harbor Redefined: USN Radio Intelligence in 1941

Here are some online sources you might wanna break down and read:

Evidence of Foreknowledge: The Attack Was No Surprise to FDR

Being well read makes you a minority here Mike

~S~

 

[Unkotare]

The person you are trying to convince is yourself.

View attachment 273942
Convince you of a fact, I would have more luck trying to convince the neighbor's cat. Some discussions are only for the intelligent.

You took a pic of some books. That is just so sad.