The NRA is still in the fight for our Rights against Black Face wearing Governor....

[PredFan]

The NRA is still in the fight against gun grabbing democrats....including the Black Face wearing, racist democrat Governor.....

Reports of the Death of the NRA Have Evidently Been Greatly Exaggerated - The Truth About Guns

This is exactly why it’s so important for the NRA to clean its own house. As we’ve said dozens of times, the protection and expansion of responsible firearms ownership in this country is served by a healthy, well-run, effective National Rifle Association.

The NRA’s status in American politics has seemed in doubt amid multimillion-dollar shortfalls in the organization’s budget, an ongoing investigation into its tax-exempt status by New York’s attorney general and allegations that the group has been manipulated by Russian influence-peddlers. Earlier this year its president, Oliver North, was forced out of office in a leadership tussle with chief executive Wayne LaPierre.


But this week’s events in Richmond showed that the organization continues to wield significant influence at the grass-roots level. Its legions of members – the group does not release figures but said it has “hundreds of thousands” in Virginia – are reliable voters who show up even during off-year elections.

Backed by those foot soldiers, NRA officials enjoy access to top politicians. Virginia GOP leaders spent weeks before the special session in frequent communication with NRA experts, who provided guidance and research on how gun-control measures had fared in other states, according to several people familiar with the interactions.

While Democrats were stunned by the way the GOP leadership shut down the special legislative session, the NRA knew about the move ahead of some rank-and-file Republicans.

I became a life time member a couple of years ago. I still give them money, especially when they offer me a chance to win a shit pot full of guns!

 

[PredFan]

I can't believe that left wing morons (pardon the redundancy) are still claiming that no one is coming after our guns.

 

[2aguy]

What libs fail to realize is that criminals really aren't looking for a fight.

If they think someone is armed, they will pass them up and look for an easier patsy to rob, rape or maim.

Very few police officers in uniform are robbed at gunpoint, its virtually unheard of. And Made Men with the La Cosa Nostra are very rarely stuck up. Criminal look for others, and even if the cop is leaving the bank after cashing his paycheck or the Mafia goon is leaving a card game with his money, the criminal will take a pass.

Most gun murders are domestic violence, not hardened criminals...

Wrong again.....90% of those who commit murder have long histories of crime and violence, they are not normal people who suddenly snap, simply because they have access to a gun.......

The Criminology of Firearms


In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."



-------------------------

In the late 1970's the US Department of Justice (DOJ) funded and tasked the University of Massachusetts' Social and Demographic Research Institute to review and evaluate the entire extant literature on gun control in the US and elsewhere.

The Institute's resulting report observed: "It is commonly hypothesized that much criminal violence, especially homicide, occurs simply because the means of lethal violence (firearms) are readily at hand, and, thus, that much homicide would not occur were firearms generally less available. There is no persuasive evidence that supports this view." (emphasis added)


That evaluation's authors — Professors James Wright, Peter Rossi and Kathleen Daly — subsequently published a commercial version of their report to which they added their personal recantation:

The progressive's indictment of American firearms policy is well known and is one that both the senior authors of this study once shared. This indictment includes the following particulars: (1) Guns are involved in an astonishing number of crimes in this country. (2) In other countries with stricter firearms laws and fewer guns in private hands, gun crime is rare ... (4) Many families acquire a gun because they feel the need to protect themselves; eventually, they end up shooting one another. (5) If there were fewer guns around, there would obviously be less crime ... The more deeply we explored the empirical implications of this indictment, the less plausible it has become. (emphasis, parentheses added)

 

[JoeB131]

Because....asshat......they did not commit any other crime before the mass shooting and hence, did not have a criminal background which would stop them from buying a gun.....

Which shows it's too easy for the wrong people to get guns.

The main thing we find out about these mass shooters is EVERYONE in their lives knew they were nuts while they were amassing their arsenals.

 

[Polishprince]

Because....asshat......they did not commit any other crime before the mass shooting and hence, did not have a criminal background which would stop them from buying a gun.....

Which shows it's too easy for the wrong people to get guns.

The main thing we find out about these mass shooters is EVERYONE in their lives knew they were nuts while they were amassing their arsenals.

In places like Chicago, where its virtually impossible to buy firearms, people rely on the Black Market for the Self Defense needs.

The problem there is if someone is doing business out of the back room of a cocktail lounge, they aren't going to do background checks at all. If someone is a criminal, insane, a teenager, an illegal alien, they really could give a shit less. And they don't pay taxes.

No one is checking to make sure their guns are safe either.

The real question isn't whether we will have guns or not. But whether we will have relatively safe guns where the dealers are licensed and pay taxes, or if we will have back alley guns.

 

[2aguy]

Because....asshat......they did not commit any other crime before the mass shooting and hence, did not have a criminal background which would stop them from buying a gun.....

Which shows it's too easy for the wrong people to get guns.

The main thing we find out about these mass shooters is EVERYONE in their lives knew they were nuts while they were amassing their arsenals.

Yes...a whole 12 people who had no criminal records which is why the background check did not flag them murdered people......and why a universal background check wouldn't catch them either... meanwhile, in the real world, the owners of 600 million guns didn't use their guns illegally......

In fact, according to the Centers for Disease Control, Americans used their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder.....

So...in case the number confused you....1.1 million is a lot bigger than 12.

 

[Polishprince]

Because....asshat......they did not commit any other crime before the mass shooting and hence, did not have a criminal background which would stop them from buying a gun.....

Which shows it's too easy for the wrong people to get guns.

The main thing we find out about these mass shooters is EVERYONE in their lives knew they were nuts while they were amassing their arsenals.

Yes...a whole 12 people who had no criminal records which is why the background check did not flag them murdered people......and why a universal background check wouldn't catch them either... meanwhile, in the real world, the owners of 600 million guns didn't use their guns illegally......

In fact, according to the Centers for Disease Control, Americans used their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder.....

So...in case the number confused you....1.1 million is a lot bigger than 12.

I think one of the points that libs don't appreciate.

Even if a gun is never fired from the time it comes of the assembly line to the time it is melted down to be made into something else, it doesn't mean it was a waste of money at all.

The possession of a firearm can deter bad actors from the second they see it. How many times in a year does a criminal approach a prospective victim, only to have the victim's little friend pointed at them and they turn and high tail it out of there?

 

[JoeB131]

In places like Chicago, where its virtually impossible to buy firearms, people rely on the Black Market for the Self Defense needs.

You obviously don't live in Chicago.

It's very easy to buy a gun here now.

It's why our homicide rate has doubled in the last decade.

Yes...a whole 12 people who had no criminal records which is why the background check did not flag them murdered people......and why a universal background check wouldn't catch them either... meanwhile, in the real world, the owners of 600 million guns didn't use their guns illegally......

Again, one kid gets killed by a lawn dart, and we banned lawn darts.

Seven people took poisoned Tylanol, and we totally changed the way we package medicines.

33,000 people die from guns, and you gun nuts think we don't have a problem.

 

[2aguy]

In places like Chicago, where its virtually impossible to buy firearms, people rely on the Black Market for the Self Defense needs.

You obviously don't live in Chicago.

It's very easy to buy a gun here now.

It's why our homicide rate has doubled in the last decade.

Yes...a whole 12 people who had no criminal records which is why the background check did not flag them murdered people......and why a universal background check wouldn't catch them either... meanwhile, in the real world, the owners of 600 million guns didn't use their guns illegally......

Again, one kid gets killed by a lawn dart, and we banned lawn darts.

Seven people took poisoned Tylanol, and we totally changed the way we package medicines.

33,000 people die from guns, and you gun nuts think we don't have a problem.

No.....Texas has gun stores on every corner, people can carry guns openly and concealed it isn't next to Indiana but it is next to the Mexican cartel state and yet Houstons gun murder rate is less than Chicago's.

The difference between the two is the democrat judges, politicians and prosecutors keep letting violent, repeat gun offenders back onto the streets of chicago even with multiple gun convictions and arrests, where they then go out and eventually hit someone they are shooting at when they should have been in jail.

So tell us how Houston, with gun stores on every corner with more law abiding people owning, carrying guns than anyone in Chicago, and in a state next to the Cartel state of Mexico has a lower gun murder rate than Chicago?

Again...your theory....

More Guns = More Gun Crime

Over the last 26 years, more Americans now own and carry guns.

Over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%.

Your theory.....

More Guns = More Gun Crime.......

The opposite happened.

In Science, when your theory states one thing will happen....and then the exact opposite thing happens, that means, in science, that your theory is wrong.

 

[2aguy]

In places like Chicago, where its virtually impossible to buy firearms, people rely on the Black Market for the Self Defense needs.

You obviously don't live in Chicago.

It's very easy to buy a gun here now.

It's why our homicide rate has doubled in the last decade.

Yes...a whole 12 people who had no criminal records which is why the background check did not flag them murdered people......and why a universal background check wouldn't catch them either... meanwhile, in the real world, the owners of 600 million guns didn't use their guns illegally......

Again, one kid gets killed by a lawn dart, and we banned lawn darts.

Seven people took poisoned Tylanol, and we totally changed the way we package medicines.

33,000 people die from guns, and you gun nuts think we don't have a problem.

Then according to you more kids die in cars than by guns....we need to ban cars....more kids die in pools than by guns...your logic means we need to ban pools.

Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder and to save lives.....far more lives saved than kids are killed by guns....

Of those 33,000 gun deaths 22,018 are suicide....489 gun accidents, leaving 10,982 gun murders...and those murdered are 70-80% criminals......leaving about 1,500 actually innocent people murdered with guns, but......of those, the majority are friends, family and associates of criminals......

So you hide the actual numbers because again, your theory is wrong....in science, when you have a theory, and implement it, and the exact opposite happens....in science, that means your theory is wrong.....

 

[2aguy]

In places like Chicago, where its virtually impossible to buy firearms, people rely on the Black Market for the Self Defense needs.

You obviously don't live in Chicago.

It's very easy to buy a gun here now.

It's why our homicide rate has doubled in the last decade.

Yes...a whole 12 people who had no criminal records which is why the background check did not flag them murdered people......and why a universal background check wouldn't catch them either... meanwhile, in the real world, the owners of 600 million guns didn't use their guns illegally......

Again, one kid gets killed by a lawn dart, and we banned lawn darts.

Seven people took poisoned Tylanol, and we totally changed the way we package medicines.

33,000 people die from guns, and you gun nuts think we don't have a problem.

This is why Chicago has a high murder rate...

Top cop laments violence as 66 shot, 5 fatally, over long Fourth of July weekend


Between last Wednesday and Friday, 42 people were charged with felony gun-related offenses, he said, but only 15 remain in custody.


That lack of accountability for gun offenders has damaged the Police Department’s relationship with the communities most beset by violence, Johnson said, making victims of crimes less likely to cooperate with officers.
-----
“It’s not about mass incarceration. It’s not about having quotas.
But when somebody has a demonstrated track record of being a violent gun offender, that should say something to the judges who are making decisions about bail.

They shouldn’t be out on the street,” Lightfoot said. “We can’t keep our communities safe if people just keep cycling through the system because what that says to them is, I can do whatever I want, I can carry whatever I want, I can shoot up a crowd and I’m going to be back on the street. How does that make sense? It doesn’t.”
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/07/criminal_justice_reform_comes_home_to_roost.html
=======

CWB Chicago: You Be The Judge: We give you the case details. You try to guess their bail amount.

McKay was sentenced to four years for robbery in 2008; two years for aggravated unlawful use of a weapon (firearm) in 2010; seven years for being a felon in possession of a weapon (firearm) in 2012; and three years for possession of fentanyl in 2016.
-----
For McKay, who has two gun convictions and a robbery conviction, Willis set bail at….$5,000. McKay will need to put down a 10% deposit of $500 to go free. Willis also ordered him to go on electronic monitoring if he is released.

Some details that Willis did not know:
• McKay’s 2008 robbery conviction involved an armed carjacking. Prosecutors reduced the charge to “ordinary” robbery as part of a plea deal.• In 2012, McKay’s second gun case also included allegations that he fired the weapon. Prosecutors dropped the weapon discharge count and seven other weapons charges in a plea deal.• The 2016 drug possession charge started as allegations of manufacture-delivery of fentanyl, but, again, prosecutors pleaded that down to possession.
------

Officials Address 'Vicious Cycle' Of I-Bond Violations After Violent Weekend

Many of the gun offenders arrested by Chicago police over the weekend walked out of jail on bond, without having to pay a dime.

As of Monday morning, 19 people had been arrested on gun-related charges. By Monday afternoon, 11 were back on the street, some with prior gun offenses.

“We know who a lot of these people are,” Chicago Police Supt. Eddie Johnson said. “And how do we know that? Because we keep arresting them over and over and over and over and over again. And it’s just a vicious cycle.”

In a tweet Sunday night, a Chicago police spokesperson criticized the practice of letting gun offenders out on Individual Recognizance Bonds or “I-Bonds.”
-----

The tweet said, in part, “Letting gun offenders out on I-Bonds shows there is absolutely no repercussion for carrying illegal guns In Chicago.”
-----
In a statement, an office representative said since the beginning of this year, 72% of gun related cases received monetary bail or no bond.

 

[airplanemechanic]

Yes...domestic violence the homes of criminals who are not allowed to buy, own or carry guns......

Why don't you just use the "N-word" instead of "Criminal". it would be more honest of you.

The left always has to bring up race.

What a racist bunch of idiots.

 

[danielpalos]

We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States.

Why is that not the case?

 

[JoeB131]

No.....Texas has gun stores on every corner, people can carry guns openly and concealed it isn't next to Indiana but it is next to the Mexican cartel state and yet Houstons gun murder rate is less than Chicago's.

And how many guns in Mexico started in Texas, that's the point.

more kids die in pools than by guns...your logic means we need to ban pools.

Why do you keep repeating this lie?

Okay, let's try again.

Drowning Data

From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non boating related) annually in the United States -- about ten deaths per day.


That's TOTAL drownings, not just kids, and in all bodies of water, not just pools. - 354 drownings a YEAR.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia


In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons),[5][6] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).[7] These deaths included 21,175 suicides,[7] 11,208 homicides,[8] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[7] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

 

[2aguy]

No.....Texas has gun stores on every corner, people can carry guns openly and concealed it isn't next to Indiana but it is next to the Mexican cartel state and yet Houstons gun murder rate is less than Chicago's.

And how many guns in Mexico started in Texas, that's the point.

more kids die in pools than by guns...your logic means we need to ban pools.

Why do you keep repeating this lie?

Okay, let's try again.

Drowning Data

From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non boating related) annually in the United States -- about ten deaths per day.


That's TOTAL drownings, not just kids, and in all bodies of water, not just pools. - 354 drownings a YEAR.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia


In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons),[5][6] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).[7] These deaths included 21,175 suicides,[7] 11,208 homicides,[8] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[7] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

The actual quote from your link...

• From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day.1 An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.2
• About one in five people who die from drowning are children 14 and younger.1 For every child who dies from drowning, another five receive emergency department care for nonfatal submersion injuries.1

Total drowning deaths each year 3,868

Actual stats...

1 in 5 accidental drownings are children between the ages of 0-14.......

So each year 773 kids drown.......gun murder and gun accidental death for kids...381

So...according to you, we need to ban pools and boats....

That is your logic.

Accidental gun death kids 0-14, 2017

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2017.... Kids (<1 - 14)

62

Gun murder of kids 0-14

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2017, gun murder...319

<1...12
1-4...44
5-9...78
10-14...185

So.....according to your logic

 

[2aguy]

No.....Texas has gun stores on every corner, people can carry guns openly and concealed it isn't next to Indiana but it is next to the Mexican cartel state and yet Houstons gun murder rate is less than Chicago's.

And how many guns in Mexico started in Texas, that's the point.

more kids die in pools than by guns...your logic means we need to ban pools.

Why do you keep repeating this lie?

Okay, let's try again.

Drowning Data

From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non boating related) annually in the United States -- about ten deaths per day.


That's TOTAL drownings, not just kids, and in all bodies of water, not just pools. - 354 drownings a YEAR.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia


In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons),[5][6] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).[7] These deaths included 21,175 suicides,[7] 11,208 homicides,[8] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[7] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

And each year normal Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery and murder...you know, saving lives.....according to the Centers for Disease Control...or 1.5 million times a year if you use the Department of Justice number.....

Far more lives are saved when normal people use guns to stop crime, than when criminals use guns illegally.......lives saved.

Of those homicides in your link...you wikipedia, not the CDC......70-80% of those murdered are criminals murdered by other criminals......of the rest, the majority are friends, family, and associates of criminals in the criminal life style...not normal people.

Your own numbers show you are wrong.

 

[2aguy]

No.....Texas has gun stores on every corner, people can carry guns openly and concealed it isn't next to Indiana but it is next to the Mexican cartel state and yet Houstons gun murder rate is less than Chicago's.

And how many guns in Mexico started in Texas, that's the point.

more kids die in pools than by guns...your logic means we need to ban pools.

Why do you keep repeating this lie?

Okay, let's try again.

Drowning Data

From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non boating related) annually in the United States -- about ten deaths per day.


That's TOTAL drownings, not just kids, and in all bodies of water, not just pools. - 354 drownings a YEAR.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia


In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons),[5][6] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).[7] These deaths included 21,175 suicides,[7] 11,208 homicides,[8] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[7] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

nd how many guns in Mexico started in Texas,

That isn't the point......you said Chicago has more gun murder because they can get guns......I pointed out Houston has more guns than Chicago and a lower gun murder rate, which shows your theory is wrong, again.........then you changed it to Mexico....and another problem for you.....the border counties in Texas....vs the Border counties in Mexico....? More murder on the Mexico side....where they have extreme gun control, only one gun store in the entire country, run by the Mexican military...

So again....More Guns = More Gun Crime is your theory...

Texas has gun stores on every corner....just about everyone can carry one....lower gun murder than Mexico....where they only have one gun store controlled by the military

Your theory...More Guns = More Gun Crime....

Texas shows your theory didn't work.....

In science...when you have a theory, implement it, and the exact opposite happens, that means your theory is wrong....

https://mises.org/blog/borderland-homicides-show-mexicos-gun-control-has-failed

On the other hand, Chihuahua and Texas are very big places. Perhaps if we take a more detailed look at the counties right on the border, we'll get a better feel for how things look at the border.
Thanks to Omar Garcia Ponce and Hannah Postel at the Center for Global Development, the work's already been done for me. Here is a map of the border at the county/municipality level:


Source: Center for Global Development


The general scenario remains the same.

In fact, the borderland on the US side of the border have fewer homicides than the US overall.

The authors note:

The map [above] illustrates the striking disparity between homicide rates on each side of the border. In 2012 (the most recent year available for all locations), Mexican border municipalities experienced 34.5 murders for every 100,000 people.

By contrast, the homicide rate in US border counties was only 1.4, far below the US national average (4.7), and a tiny fraction of that experienced by their Southern neighbors.


While almost half of the Mexican municipalities along the border experienced more than 40 murders per 100,000 people in 2012 (176 in Tamaulipas’ Ciudad Mier), the highest homicide rate in the US border counties was 12.9 (Yuma, AZ).

The next most violent county experienced only 5.4 murders per 100,000 people. Notably, some of the safest locations in the United States are contiguous to many of the most dangerous places in Mexico. Most striking is the contrast between Ciudad Juárez and El Paso, two large cities that constitute a binational metropolitan area. Once called “the murder capital of the world,” Mexico’s Ciudad Juárez is only 300 feet from El Paso, “America’s safest city.” In 2012, Ciudad Juárez had 58 homicides per 100,000 people, while El Paso experienced fewer than one (0.6).
So why is there such an immense difference here?

Restrictive Gun Laws in Mexico

The pre-packaged retort to this phenomena often repeated in the media is that the US causes the high homicide rates in Mexico by exporting guns to Mexico. We're told that criminals go into the US, buy guns legally in Texas (for example) and then sell the guns illegally to cartels in Mexico.
Dave Kopel has shown that this claim isn't true. But, even if it were true, it wouldn't explain much by itself since we're left asking ourselves why criminals don' just do the same thing to the same homicidal effect in the United States. If it's so fruitful for violent criminals to buy guns in the US and sell them to organized crime rings, why aren't those criminals doing the same thing in the US?
Well, the answer is the criminals probably are are well armed in the US, and have a lot of guns just like criminals in Mexico do. The difference in actual crimes carried out, however, likely lies in the fact that law abiding Mexicans have been disarmed, while law abiding Americans have not.
Gun laws are very

 

[JoeB131]

So.....according to your logic

Uh, guy, not even close...

You specifically said "POOLS". Not "all drownings". In fact, MOST drownings happen in lakes and rivers because dumbshits don't understand things like tides.

So by your logic, if you do some bizarre interpretation to only count- pre=teen gun victims, and then count ALL drownings, you've just argued we should ban water.

 

[danielpalos]

Our Second Amendment is express not implied.

 

[2aguy]

So.....according to your logic

Uh, guy, not even close...

You specifically said "POOLS". Not "all drownings". In fact, MOST drownings happen in lakes and rivers because dumbshits don't understand things like tides.

So by your logic, if you do some bizarre interpretation to only count- pre=teen gun victims, and then count ALL drownings, you've just argued we should ban water.

Didn't do that, moron....look at my post....I took pre-teens because at 15 the gang member murdering another gang member is not a normal kid......comparing apples to apples, you moron.

And no, you argument is no matter how many times guns are used to save lives, any life taken is an excuse to ban all guns....

I am applying your logic to pools, and swimming in general..