The Not So Secret Cost Of The Wars In Iraq and Afghanistan..

[HUGGY]

Used to be before 2000 the U S Military didn't even keep track of it's members in uniform that took thier own lives. I find THAT unconscionable.

Now the suicides outpace the combat deaths.. THIS is the dirty BIG secret of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Through November, 177 active-duty soldiers had committed suicide compared to 165 during all of 2011 and 156 in 2010. In all of 2012, 176 soldiers were killed in action -- all while serving in Operation Enduring Freedom, according to DOD."


The enemy within: Soldier suicides outpaced combat deaths in 2012 - U.S. News

 

[whitehall]

Let'see, if the suicide rate in the Military remains constant and the combat deaths are statistically non existent compared to WW2 and Korea what do you think we should do?

 

[HUGGY]

Let'see, if the suicide rate in the Military remains constant and the combat deaths are statistically non existent compared to WW2 and Korea what do you think we should do?

Well.... I'm no expert on the military. Having smuggled for more than a few years(and lived to tell about it) I am fair to middlin at figuring out desperate situations on the fly and not getting hurt in the process.

These IADs have been used effectively against our military for the last ten years or more. There should be plenty of forensic evidense available to put together some somewhat equally effective counter measures to keep our people from getting thier bells rung which as it turns out accounts for many of the eventual suicides.

I do not know what the military is or isn't doing so I have no meaningful comment on that. I do know that we are placing our own troops in close proximity to these improvised bombs. The enemy isn't sneaking up on us very effectively any more, although it does happen occasionally, with explosive devices. It seems like some bright tech person should be able to invent something that could detect burried explosives with a ground penetration radar that precedes these convoys. OR maybe have a series of drones watch a certain proposed route 24/7 for a few days and catch people burrying things in roads. If the route is 20 miles it might take 50 or more drones flying constantly which means more like 100 drones like they use along our Mexican border with heat/night vision capability. It has to take at least 15 mins to half an hour to dig up a packed road and burry a bomb and cover it up like nothing was there. If a drone was high enough that it could not be heard from the ground and they flew at 5 min intervals we would catch and locate every bomb that was being attempted to be hidden. Plus the drones could send a Hellfire missle to give the terrorists a real bad day. I've been working on this for ten minutes. I would guess that actual smart people could come up with something more effective in say...twenty minutes.

 

[waltky]

Suicide impacting special forces...

U.S. special forces struggle with record suicides: admiral
Thu Apr 17, 2014 - Suicides among U.S. special operations forces, including elite Navy SEALs and Army Rangers, are at record levels, a U.S. military official said on Thursday, citing the effects of more than a decade of "hard combat."

The number of special operations forces committing suicide has held at record highs for the past two years, said Admiral William McRaven, who leads the Special Operations Command. "And this year, I am afraid, we are on path to break that," he told a conference in Tampa. "My soldiers have been fighting now for 12, 13 years in hard combat. Hard combat. And anybody that has spent any time in this war has been changed by it. It's that simple."

It may take a year or more, he said, to assess the effects of sustained combat on special operations units, whose missions range from strikes on militants such as the 2011 SEAL raid that killed al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden to assisting in humanitarian disasters. He did not provide data on the suicide rate, which the U.S. military has been battling to lower. In 2012, for example, more active duty servicemen and servicewomen across the U.S. armed forces died by suicide - an estimated 350 - than died in combat, a U.S. defense official said. That trend appears to have held in 2013 although preliminary data is showing a slight improvement, with 284 suicides among active duty forces in the year to December 15, the official added.

A Navy SEAL takes part in a demonstration in Florida

McRaven's command, headquartered at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, oversees elite commandos operating in 84 countries. The Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps special operations commands comprise about 59,000 people, according to Pentagon documents. Special operations forces have been lionized in popular culture in recent years, in movies such as "Zero Dark Thirty," about the hunt for bin Laden, and "Act of Valor," as well as a National Geographic special.

Kim Ruocco, who assists the survivors of military members who commit suicide, said members of the closely knit special operations community often fear that disclosing their symptoms will end their careers. Additionally, the shrinking size of the U.S. armed forces has put additional pressure on soldiers, whose sense of community and self-identity is often closely tied to their military service, said Ruocco, director of suicide prevention programs for the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors, an advocacy group for military families.

U.S. special forces struggle with record suicides: admiral | Reuters

 

[Mushroom]

Used to be before 2000 the U S Military didn't even keep track of it's members in uniform that took thier own lives. I find THAT unconscionable.

And why should we have?

Do we keep such statistics for postal workers? Or FBI agents? Or Capitol Building employees? Do we keep suicide statistics for garage mechanics?

Is it unconscionable that we do not have an entire bureaucracy devoted to just collecting such useless statistics?

Well.... I'm no expert on the military. Having smuggled for more than a few years(and lived to tell about it) I am fair to middlin at figuring out desperate situations on the fly and not getting hurt in the process.

Yea, the first sentence is obvious.

As for the rest of that paragraph, meaningless coprolite.

These IADs have been used effectively against our military for the last ten years or more. There should be plenty of forensic evidense available to put together some somewhat equally effective counter measures to keep our people from getting thier bells rung which as it turns out accounts for many of the eventual suicides.

IAD? I can only assume you mean IED.

In fact, they have not been all that effective. If you even bothered to do even a little research, this becomes obvious.

iCasualties | Operation Enduring Freedom | Afghanistan

IED fatalities for 2013 amounted to an entire 52 people. And for the year to day, there have been 4.

For 2013, the number of suicides was 245.

Yet 420 died in vehicle accidents in 2013.

You try to make it look like the military is killing itself left and right, and that "IAD"s are killing huge numbers. When in fact, that is not true. Almost twice as many died in vehicle accidents as killed themselves, and almost ten times as many were killed by accidents then by "IAD"s.

But yes, I believe you. No expert in the military are you.

 

[Indofred]

I'm unsure why American invaders killing themselves is a bad thing.
After all, it saves Taliban time, effort and money, and stops the invaders killing the local population.

I understand a further 420 were killed in traffic accidents.
I wonder if they had Afghan/international driving licences and, if not, they probably deserved it anyway.
Driving without a licence is unacceptable.

Driving in Afghanistan

In accordance with the spirit of road traffic convention, an International driving permit is valid in Afghanistan. Foreign visitors can drive motor vehicles in the territory of Democratic Republic of Afghanistan if they have valid original driver licenses and International driver permits which issued and organized in accordance to Vienne road traffic convention, held in 1968.

 

[Andylusion]

Used to be before 2000 the U S Military didn't even keep track of it's members in uniform that took thier own lives. I find THAT unconscionable.

Now the suicides outpace the combat deaths.. THIS is the dirty BIG secret of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Through November, 177 active-duty soldiers had committed suicide compared to 165 during all of 2011 and 156 in 2010. In all of 2012, 176 soldiers were killed in action -- all while serving in Operation Enduring Freedom, according to DOD."


The enemy within: Soldier suicides outpaced combat deaths in 2012 - U.S. News

This is a strange thread. Did anyone not know this? Suicides among soldier (as far as I have known) have always drastically increased after a war.

This is unfortunately normal. Now, a ton of people are going to get mad at me, and I hardly care.....

But today's Soldiers are more susceptible to suicide than in times past, because we have lost faith. Faith in something greater than yourself, is a strong ground to hold on to life from.

Yet today, we have mostly a 'self centered' belief system where there is nothing greater than ourselves, and when you wake up in the morning and this is all there is.... yeah, people are more likely to kill themselves. Especially after the world is turned upside down from war.

 

[Andylusion]

I'm unsure why American invaders killing themselves is a bad thing.
After all, it saves Taliban time, effort and money, and stops the invaders killing the local population.

I understand a further 420 were killed in traffic accidents.
I wonder if they had Afghan/international driving licences and, if not, they probably deserved it anyway.
Driving without a licence is unacceptable.

Driving in Afghanistan

In accordance with the spirit of road traffic convention, an International driving permit is valid in Afghanistan. Foreign visitors can drive motor vehicles in the territory of Democratic Republic of Afghanistan if they have valid original driver licenses and International driver permits which issued and organized in accordance to Vienne road traffic convention, held in 1968.

I'd like to ask you something.

Granted I could be talking to a 14 year old boy in a basement in Colorado.... but your post says you are from Indonesia, and that you are an extremist Muslim.

I'm taking you at your word.

My question is this....

When I look around the world, I see Muslims killing Muslims all the time. I see a bomb planted by Muslims, to kill Egyptian Muslims in Cairo. I see Muslims planting bombs, to kill other Muslims in Iraq. I see bombs planted by Muslims, to kill Muslims in Syria. Bahrain bombs, Tunisia bombs, Lebanon bombs, Libya bombs. I see Fatah Muslims killing Hamas Muslims. I see Al Qeada killing Hezbollah. I see Shiite killing Sunni, and Sunni killing Druze. I see bombs planted by Muslims in Cafes, Markets, Bridges, and even Mosques, killing untold numbers of Muslims. I see eastern Muslims raping and slaughtering western Muslims in Darfur. I see Muslim Arabs in Iraq, killing Muslims Kurds in Iraq. I see Iraqi Muslims attacking Iranian Muslims, and Kuwaiti Muslims.

And this is just a slice of what I have seen in my short time on this planet.

Yet despite the absolutely endless, uncountable numbers of deaths and acts of violence of Muslims against other Muslims....

I have found that in talking with Islamist like yourself, all of that is ignored, and the focus is on any Muslims killed by an American.

Can you explain to me why this is so?

Even when American soldiers are kill people who supported horrible abusive regimes, like a Muslim Gaddafi in Libya after years and years of abuse and slaughtering his own Muslim people, we heard from Muslims that they would kill Americans for killing Muslims in Libya.

Or Muslim Saddam in Iraq, who killed and slaughtered and raped untold numbers of Muslims in Iraq. Yet after the Iraq war, Muslims said they would kill Americans for killing Muslims in Iraq.

Can you reveal the logic behind this?

Why is Muslims killing Muslims apparently not all that bad, yet if an American does it, it's truly terrible? And why America? Why not Britain? Why not France? Why not Germany?

See, when a Christian group that is doing truly horrible things, get's killed by someone else, I tend to think.... that's sad. Those Christians shouldn't have been doing that.

I don't think, we need to build bombs to blow up those non-Christians for killing those Christian people.

Yet that seems to be exactly what Islamist do. Why? I don't get it. What am I missing?

 

[kiwiman127]

The reason for suicides is that like Vietnam, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are front-less wars, not conventional wars. Troops are always looking behind their backs as they never know who is the enemy and who is a friend. Thus, the emergence of PTSD and the high suicide rates.
After the Vietnam War, quite a few soldiers came back pretty whacked out, Agent Orange; etc was blamed as was the drug usage. Only after 2-3 years in Iraq did it finally become diagnosed as mental issues (PTSD).
I'm sure every war has produced a jump in suicides, the new warfare certainly spiked the suicide rates in those returning from the ME war zone. It's too bad that it took so long to finally realize the answer.

 

[whitehall]

How could it be about the "War" when 60 members of the Navy, 48 members of the Air Force committed suicide when their military MOS didn't indicate combat service? Statistically the suicide rate in the Military seems to be relatively constant . Can it be that the politicians want to make an issue about the freaking conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan?

 

[Billo_Really]

Not only was the cost of the war ridiculous, but what we got in return, was off the planet!

Nothing! We got nothing in return!

 

[Flopper]

Used to be before 2000 the U S Military didn't even keep track of it's members in uniform that took thier own lives. I find THAT unconscionable.

Now the suicides outpace the combat deaths.. THIS is the dirty BIG secret of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Through November, 177 active-duty soldiers had committed suicide compared to 165 during all of 2011 and 156 in 2010. In all of 2012, 176 soldiers were killed in action -- all while serving in Operation Enduring Freedom, according to DOD."


The enemy within: Soldier suicides outpaced combat deaths in 2012 - U.S. News

I'm not sure there have been any really objective studies made.

Combat deaths are very low compared to previous wars. There have been 2.5 million Americans serve in the Afgan and Iraqi war and there have been about 6800 deaths. That's one death for every 367 who served.

16.5 million Americans served in WWII and there were 291,000 combat deaths. That's one death for every 57 that served.

Obviously the number of deaths in relation to number that have served have come down drastically. However, when it comes to suicides I think the numbers are drastically under reported. Today as in the past, there is huge stigma associated with suicide.

 

[Andylusion]

Not only was the cost of the war ridiculous, but what we got in return, was off the planet!

Nothing! We got nothing in return!

Well.... honestly, this right here could be part of the reason.

You are wrong about that.

You don't even know what we have accomplished, and how good of a thing it was.

For you to claim that those people went there and sacrificed for nothing, yeah... that's sad. That might depress some people in the military.

 

[Indofred]

I'd like to ask you something.

Granted I could be talking to a 14 year old boy in a basement in Colorado.

I can't really comment on what it's like to take a 14 year old boy into a basement.
I try not to judge other people but, if I may suggest one thing, use grown men for your fun as at 14 years old, it's both illegal and immoral.

but your post says you are from Indonesia, and that you are an extremist Muslim.

I'm taking you at your word.

I'm a white English chap but I live just outside Jakarta, Indonesia, and I'm a run of the mill Muslim (except for that thing with the sheep - of course, I was never convicted, but I do have a court order against me stating I can't enter a sheep farm at night or wear wellington boots anywhere near grazing animals)
The extremist Muslim title, coupled with the family guy suicide bomber, only convinces fucking idiots - as it was designed to do.
Frankly, I'm amazed anyone is that stupid .... but some are.

My question is this....

When I look around the world, I see Muslims killing Muslims all the time.

I have found that in talking with Islamist like yourself, all of that is ignored, and the focus is on any Muslims killed by an American.

Can you explain to me why this is so?

I have never condoned any Muslim killing any other Muslim, except where the dead Muslim was a bastard.
The Indonesian terrorists were shot by other Muslims and, much as I was in a position to warn the terrorists of their impending fate, I did not because the bastards deserved what they were going to get.
I was aware D88 were in the area, I knew of their target and I knew how to warn the target.
The one thing I didn't have, was a reason to let them live. Fuck the bastards to hell.
The same applies to all those who use Islam as an excuse to hurt others.
Come to think of it, make that anyone who uses any reason to do such things.

Suicide bombers are doubly stupid.
Both suicide and murder of innocents are mortal sins in Islam (as with Christianity), so these fools are hell bound for their crimes. I just wish the daft bastards would blow themselves up in a field where no one else could get hurt by their cretinous act.

I do not ignore these idiots, but I still condemn American foreign policy in Muslim countries, and equally, in non Muslim countries.
Your naval build up against China is hardly anti Muslim but it's just as stupid as the illegal wars you lot started in other countries, including Vietnam.

Because I often attack American foreign policy and international mass murder, I'm commonly accused of being anti American but that isn't the case.

I'm anti silly fucker, including all extremists of all types, and I'm anti mass murder.

To "looking around the world".
You aren't looking. If you did, you'd see millions of deaths through war, many hardly reported because the news isn't newsworthy in any given country.
The trick is simple enough - read news from all around the world, not just the take from one country.
You should read at least one or two publications from as many countries as possible to get an idea of what's really happening out there. The press in many countries lie, not little errors, massive whoppers.
Often, they simply omit corrections to the stories they run so no one knows they published bullshit.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_PG3xIUrv0]swimming pool - YouTube[/ame]

What you have to do is think, does it add up?
See the cracks, does it feel real, and what do other news outlets say about it?

The Russian "register Jews" story is a prime example.
It didn't feel right so I dug. A minute later it was found to be false.
Loads of news companies do the same shit, treating you as if you're a brainless fucking idiot.
Don't be.

 

[Andylusion]

I'd like to ask you something.

Granted I could be talking to a 14 year old boy in a basement in Colorado.

I can't really comment on what it's like to take a 14 year old boy into a basement.
I try not to judge other people but, if I may suggest one thing, use grown men for your fun as at 14 years old, it's both illegal and immoral.

but your post says you are from Indonesia, and that you are an extremist Muslim.

I'm taking you at your word.

I'm a white English chap but I live just outside Jakarta, Indonesia, and I'm a run of the mill Muslim (except for that thing with the sheep - of course, I was never convicted, but I do have a court order against me stating I can't enter a sheep farm at night or wear wellington boots anywhere near grazing animals)
The extremist Muslim title, coupled with the family guy suicide bomber, only convinces fucking idiots - as it was designed to do.
Frankly, I'm amazed anyone is that stupid .... but some are.

My question is this....

When I look around the world, I see Muslims killing Muslims all the time.

I have found that in talking with Islamist like yourself, all of that is ignored, and the focus is on any Muslims killed by an American.

Can you explain to me why this is so?

I have never condoned any Muslim killing any other Muslim, except where the dead Muslim was a bastard.
The Indonesian terrorists were shot by other Muslims and, much as I was in a position to warn the terrorists of their impending fate, I did not because the bastards deserved what they were going to get.
I was aware D88 were in the area, I knew of their target and I knew how to warn the target.
The one thing I didn't have, was a reason to let them live. Fuck the bastards to hell.
The same applies to all those who use Islam as an excuse to hurt others.
Come to think of it, make that anyone who uses any reason to do such things.

Suicide bombers are doubly stupid.
Both suicide and murder of innocents are mortal sins in Islam (as with Christianity), so these fools are hell bound for their crimes. I just wish the daft bastards would blow themselves up in a field where no one else could get hurt by their cretinous act.

I do not ignore these idiots, but I still condemn American foreign policy in Muslim countries, and equally, in non Muslim countries.
Your naval build up against China is hardly anti Muslim but it's just as stupid as the illegal wars you lot started in other countries, including Vietnam.

Because I often attack American foreign policy and international mass murder, I'm commonly accused of being anti American but that isn't the case.

I'm anti silly fucker, including all extremists of all types, and I'm anti mass murder.

To "looking around the world".
You aren't looking. If you did, you'd see millions of deaths through war, many hardly reported because the news isn't newsworthy in any given country.
The trick is simple enough - read news from all around the world, not just the take from one country.
You should read at least one or two publications from as many countries as possible to get an idea of what's really happening out there. The press in many countries lie, not little errors, massive whoppers.
Often, they simply omit corrections to the stories they run so no one knows they published bullshit.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_PG3xIUrv0]swimming pool - YouTube[/ame]

What you have to do is think, does it add up?
See the cracks, does it feel real, and what do other news outlets say about it?

The Russian "register Jews" story is a prime example.
It didn't feel right so I dug. A minute later it was found to be false.
Loads of news companies do the same shit, treating you as if you're a brainless fucking idiot.
Don't be.

Ah. I always take people at their word to start with. Never mind then. Carry on.

 

[Indofred]

Ah. I always take people at their word to start with. Never mind then. Carry on.

Dude, claiming to be an extremist Muslim whilst using a family guy suicide bomber avatar - Drrrrr.
It's there of people as stupid as Sally to believe.

You must look past what you see.

 

[Billo_Really]

Well.... honestly, this right here could be part of the reason.

You are wrong about that.

You don't even know what we have accomplished, and how good of a thing it was.

For you to claim that those people went there and sacrificed for nothing, yeah... that's sad. That might depress some people in the military.

Then you tell me, "what did we get in return?"

What did we get for over $4 trillion dollars, over 4000 American lives, our reputation trashed, our economy crashed and our American heritage completely shit on, what did we get for giving up all that?

How has average American's benefited from such a sacrifice? How is "my" life better because of that?

Care to answer that question, Andy?

 

[Indofred]

What did we get for over $4 trillion dollars, over 4000 American lives, our reputation trashed, our economy crashed and our American heritage completely shit on, what did we get for giving up all that?

The U.S. arms industry made a fortune.
You should be thankful your fathers, sons and brothers died for their profits.

 

[Flopper]

Well.... honestly, this right here could be part of the reason.

You are wrong about that.

You don't even know what we have accomplished, and how good of a thing it was.

For you to claim that those people went there and sacrificed for nothing, yeah... that's sad. That might depress some people in the military.

Then you tell me, "what did we get in return?"

What did we get for over $4 trillion dollars, over 4000 American lives, our reputation trashed, our economy crashed and our American heritage completely shit on, what did we get for giving up all that?

How has average American's benefited from such a sacrifice? How is "my" life better because of that?

Care to answer that question, Andy?

Two more US protectorates.

 

[Andylusion]

Ah. I always take people at their word to start with. Never mind then. Carry on.

Dude, claiming to be an extremist Muslim whilst using a family guy suicide bomber avatar - Drrrrr.
It's there of people as stupid as Sally to believe.

You must look past what you see.

I always take people at their word to start with. Always. If that makes me stupid, ok. I have never cared what other people thought about me, and I'm not about to start. Believe what you will.