The Nazis and Japs made it easy to rally the nation

[ski87]

Ok, I got it, FDR had some shady politics surrounding the US entr into WWII, the supposed "memo" received weeks prior to Pearl Harbor, ok, I got it. These are discussion topics that are still being validated. And, yeah, any 6th grade history student knows about the racism in US politics during the first half of the 20th century. Great job on this careful analysis...lol.

What has been validated are the first hand accounts and books that have been written by uhmmm survivors from Bataaan and the Corregidor. Go ahead and google Lester Tenny's "My Hitch in Hell" and learn from a survivor of the attrocities committed by the JAP bastards during WWII, gee..maybe word of these attrocities got back to the mainland and helped fuel the racism that supposedly steeered ALL American activities of that era. I know how those messy facts and first hand accounts do get in the way of a good argument though.

You do know the war is over, right?

Ya, you do know that you are in the "History" forum, right?

 

[regent]

FDR probably had plenty of incidents that he could have used to go to war with Japan. In 1937 there was the sinking of the American gunboat Panay with the loss of American lives. What FDR did that caused Japan to attack Pearl Harbor was to stop selling the Japanese raw materials which Japan needed for its war on China. Without oil the Japanese navy was dead in the water, in any case FDR stopped the shipping of oil and other American raw materials to Japan. Japan took a chance with war to force America to make some kind of peace, and in the negotiated peace, Japan would take over parts of the Pacific that had her needed raw materials.
The question: should America have continued selling oil and other materials to Japan so she might continue her military operations in China?

Good question. However we know that FDR wanted war desperately with Germany and since Japan was Germany's ally, creating problems for Japan certainly helped him reach his goal.
Relations between Japan and US were not good for some time prior to Dec 7, 1941. If FDR really had tried to avoid war, as he told the American people he was doing (big LIE among many), relations with Japan should not have been so frayed. FDR had to know he was pushing Japan into an intolerable position. He considered himself extremely intelligent (like most who reach the WH), so why did he not pursue relations based on preventing war, while seeking some way to end to Japans's aggression?

Secondly, FDR's short sighted and tyrannical unconditional surrender demand lead to thousands of dead and wounded Americans and Japanese. The war with Japan might have ended in 1943 had the fool not made such a ridiculous demand. But, being a disgusting pro-war progressive, he loved war.

Yet another good reason for why we need to limit the power of government and our political leaders. History shows that politicians invariably make bad decisions that lead to much death and suffering.

If only our political leaders would learn from our founders....

James Wilson: (framer and ratifier): "This system will not hurry us into war; it is calculated to guard against it. It will not be in the power of a single man, or a single body of men, to involve us in such distress; for the important power of declaring war is vested in the legislature at large. . . ."

Do you have any evidence that FDR loved war or that Japan would have surrendered in 1943 except for the unconditional surrender?
Japan might have made peace in 1943 but only if we allowed Japan to take the parts of the Pacific she wanted. So the war came down to America supplying Japan with the war materials to make war in China or allow her to take the war materials from other nations, including the American Philippines.
Don't you believe FDR tried to negotiate with the Japanese? If you check you might discover we were in the midst of negotiations when Pearl Harbor occurred. We did not order Japan out of China on the threat of war but only that we would not sell Japan any more materials to make that war.
As for the Wilson quote: WWII was the last American war the legislature voted a formal declaration of war as per the Constitution.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Regent, gipper does not have a full attic to shuffle things around in.

 

[Unkotare]

You do know the war is over, right?

Ya, you do know that you are in the "History" forum, right?[/QUOTE]


Both are true. Do you feel better now?

 

[gipper]

FDR probably had plenty of incidents that he could have used to go to war with Japan. In 1937 there was the sinking of the American gunboat Panay with the loss of American lives. What FDR did that caused Japan to attack Pearl Harbor was to stop selling the Japanese raw materials which Japan needed for its war on China. Without oil the Japanese navy was dead in the water, in any case FDR stopped the shipping of oil and other American raw materials to Japan. Japan took a chance with war to force America to make some kind of peace, and in the negotiated peace, Japan would take over parts of the Pacific that had her needed raw materials.
The question: should America have continued selling oil and other materials to Japan so she might continue her military operations in China?

Good question. However we know that FDR wanted war desperately with Germany and since Japan was Germany's ally, creating problems for Japan certainly helped him reach his goal.
Relations between Japan and US were not good for some time prior to Dec 7, 1941. If FDR really had tried to avoid war, as he told the American people he was doing (big LIE among many), relations with Japan should not have been so frayed. FDR had to know he was pushing Japan into an intolerable position. He considered himself extremely intelligent (like most who reach the WH), so why did he not pursue relations based on preventing war, while seeking some way to end to Japans's aggression?

Secondly, FDR's short sighted and tyrannical unconditional surrender demand lead to thousands of dead and wounded Americans and Japanese. The war with Japan might have ended in 1943 had the fool not made such a ridiculous demand. But, being a disgusting pro-war progressive, he loved war.

Yet another good reason for why we need to limit the power of government and our political leaders. History shows that politicians invariably make bad decisions that lead to much death and suffering.

If only our political leaders would learn from our founders....

James Wilson: (framer and ratifier): "This system will not hurry us into war; it is calculated to guard against it. It will not be in the power of a single man, or a single body of men, to involve us in such distress; for the important power of declaring war is vested in the legislature at large. . . ."

Do you have any evidence that FDR loved war or that Japan would have surrendered in 1943 except for the unconditional surrender?
Japan might have made peace in 1943 but only if we allowed Japan to take the parts of the Pacific she wanted. So the war came down to America supplying Japan with the war materials to make war in China or allow her to take the war materials from other nations, including the American Philippines.
Don't you believe FDR tried to negotiate with the Japanese? If you check you might discover we were in the midst of negotiations when Pearl Harbor occurred. We did not order Japan out of China on the threat of war but only that we would not sell Japan any more materials to make that war.
As for the Wilson quote: WWII was the last American war the legislature voted a formal declaration of war as per the Constitution.

Do you really think FDR wanted peace when he ran for a ridiculous third term even though his health was questionable? He told the American people in the 1940 campaign that he would not get us involved...yet he already had us involved. He was giving all sorts of material to the Brits and trying to cause a confrontation in the North Atlantic. He also had allocated millions to build up our war machine. As such, he was a pro-war progressive and a liar.

I do not believe FDR did all he could to negotiate with Japan. As I stated, FDR pushed Japan into an intolerable position, which lead to their attack on Pearl. Which was exactly what FDR wanted.

My view is our leaders must avoid war at all costs. Not only is war deadly with unbelievable suffering (though our leaders never suffer), it always results in unintended consequences...like the Soviets enslaving half of Europe after WWII even though the war started to free Poland from Germany....what a waste. And war always centralizes power into the hands of a few elites.

If you search the record, you will find that Japan sought peace terms as early as 1943. But, thanks to FDR's absurd unconditional surrender requirement, it went nowhere.

And you misunderstand the Founder's quote...he hoped the Constitution would prevent exactly what FDR did. That one foolish egotistical pro-war POTUS could not take unilateral actions that would lead us to war...but he did with his aggressive actions and unwillingness to negotiate to avoid war.

 

[gipper]

Regent, gipper does not have a full attic to shuffle things around in.

And yet you think Democracy with minority protections is the best form of government. That is most absurd.

Take a look at the ME and tell us again about the wonders of democracy....

 

[JakeStarkey]

What you think about democracy with minority protections does not matter.

 

[regent]

Good question. However we know that FDR wanted war desperately with Germany and since Japan was Germany's ally, creating problems for Japan certainly helped him reach his goal.
Relations between Japan and US were not good for some time prior to Dec 7, 1941. If FDR really had tried to avoid war, as he told the American people he was doing (big LIE among many), relations with Japan should not have been so frayed. FDR had to know he was pushing Japan into an intolerable position. He considered himself extremely intelligent (like most who reach the WH), so why did he not pursue relations based on preventing war, while seeking some way to end to Japans's aggression?

Secondly, FDR's short sighted and tyrannical unconditional surrender demand lead to thousands of dead and wounded Americans and Japanese. The war with Japan might have ended in 1943 had the fool not made such a ridiculous demand. But, being a disgusting pro-war progressive, he loved war.

Yet another good reason for why we need to limit the power of government and our political leaders. History shows that politicians invariably make bad decisions that lead to much death and suffering.

If only our political leaders would learn from our founders....

Do you have any evidence that FDR loved war or that Japan would have surrendered in 1943 except for the unconditional surrender?
Japan might have made peace in 1943 but only if we allowed Japan to take the parts of the Pacific she wanted. So the war came down to America supplying Japan with the war materials to make war in China or allow her to take the war materials from other nations, including the American Philippines.
Don't you believe FDR tried to negotiate with the Japanese? If you check you might discover we were in the midst of negotiations when Pearl Harbor occurred. We did not order Japan out of China on the threat of war but only that we would not sell Japan any more materials to make that war.
As for the Wilson quote: WWII was the last American war the legislature voted a formal declaration of war as per the Constitution.

Do you really think FDR wanted peace when he ran for a ridiculous third term even though his health was questionable? He told the American people in the 1940 campaign that he would not get us involved...yet he already had us involved. He was giving all sorts of material to the Brits and trying to cause a confrontation in the North Atlantic. He also had allocated millions to build up our war machine. As such, he was a pro-war progressive and a liar.

I do not believe FDR did all he could to negotiate with Japan. As I stated, FDR pushed Japan into an intolerable position, which lead to their attack on Pearl. Which was exactly what FDR wanted.

My view is our leaders must avoid war at all costs. Not only is war deadly with unbelievable suffering (though our leaders never suffer), it always results in unintended consequences...like the Soviets enslaving half of Europe after WWII even though the war started to free Poland from Germany....what a waste. And war always centralizes power into the hands of a few elites.

If you search the record, you will find that Japan sought peace terms as early as 1943. But, thanks to FDR's absurd unconditional surrender requirement, it went nowhere.

And you misunderstand the Founder's quote...he hoped the Constitution would prevent exactly what FDR did. That one foolish egotistical pro-war POTUS could not take unilateral actions that would lead us to war...but he did with his aggressive actions and unwillingness to negotiate to avoid war.

You make a number of assumptions and statements which are not borne out by the historical record but only based on your beliefs. FDR is rated by historians as America's greatest president, so I'll let you have your beliefs and Monday morning assumptions and let the historians have theirs.

 

[Unkotare]

FDR was America's worst president, by far.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Not at all. One of the three or four best.

 

[Unkotare]

Not at all. One of the three or four best.

BY FAR the worst.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are certainly entitled to your wrong opinion.

Just don't try to make it play in adult, educated America.

 

[Unkotare]

Just don't try to make it play in adult, educated America.

Why do you care? That's the one place you'd never see it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Just don't try to make it play in adult, educated America.

Why do you care? That's the one place you'd never see it.

 

[gipper]

Do you have any evidence that FDR loved war or that Japan would have surrendered in 1943 except for the unconditional surrender?
Japan might have made peace in 1943 but only if we allowed Japan to take the parts of the Pacific she wanted. So the war came down to America supplying Japan with the war materials to make war in China or allow her to take the war materials from other nations, including the American Philippines.
Don't you believe FDR tried to negotiate with the Japanese? If you check you might discover we were in the midst of negotiations when Pearl Harbor occurred. We did not order Japan out of China on the threat of war but only that we would not sell Japan any more materials to make that war.
As for the Wilson quote: WWII was the last American war the legislature voted a formal declaration of war as per the Constitution.

Do you really think FDR wanted peace when he ran for a ridiculous third term even though his health was questionable? He told the American people in the 1940 campaign that he would not get us involved...yet he already had us involved. He was giving all sorts of material to the Brits and trying to cause a confrontation in the North Atlantic. He also had allocated millions to build up our war machine. As such, he was a pro-war progressive and a liar.

I do not believe FDR did all he could to negotiate with Japan. As I stated, FDR pushed Japan into an intolerable position, which lead to their attack on Pearl. Which was exactly what FDR wanted.

My view is our leaders must avoid war at all costs. Not only is war deadly with unbelievable suffering (though our leaders never suffer), it always results in unintended consequences...like the Soviets enslaving half of Europe after WWII even though the war started to free Poland from Germany....what a waste. And war always centralizes power into the hands of a few elites.

If you search the record, you will find that Japan sought peace terms as early as 1943. But, thanks to FDR's absurd unconditional surrender requirement, it went nowhere.

And you misunderstand the Founder's quote...he hoped the Constitution would prevent exactly what FDR did. That one foolish egotistical pro-war POTUS could not take unilateral actions that would lead us to war...but he did with his aggressive actions and unwillingness to negotiate to avoid war.

You make a number of assumptions and statements which are not borne out by the historical record but only based on your beliefs. FDR is rated by historians as America's greatest president, so I'll let you have your beliefs and Monday morning assumptions and let the historians have theirs.

Most absurd. FDR was one of the worst presidents America has ever had to endure. Please tell me what he did that was so great?

 

[regent]

Do you really think FDR wanted peace when he ran for a ridiculous third term even though his health was questionable? He told the American people in the 1940 campaign that he would not get us involved...yet he already had us involved. He was giving all sorts of material to the Brits and trying to cause a confrontation in the North Atlantic. He also had allocated millions to build up our war machine. As such, he was a pro-war progressive and a liar.

I do not believe FDR did all he could to negotiate with Japan. As I stated, FDR pushed Japan into an intolerable position, which lead to their attack on Pearl. Which was exactly what FDR wanted.

My view is our leaders must avoid war at all costs. Not only is war deadly with unbelievable suffering (though our leaders never suffer), it always results in unintended consequences...like the Soviets enslaving half of Europe after WWII even though the war started to free Poland from Germany....what a waste. And war always centralizes power into the hands of a few elites.

If you search the record, you will find that Japan sought peace terms as early as 1943. But, thanks to FDR's absurd unconditional surrender requirement, it went nowhere.

And you misunderstand the Founder's quote...he hoped the Constitution would prevent exactly what FDR did. That one foolish egotistical pro-war POTUS could not take unilateral actions that would lead us to war...but he did with his aggressive actions and unwillingness to negotiate to avoid war.

You make a number of assumptions and statements which are not borne out by the historical record but only based on your beliefs. FDR is rated by historians as America's greatest president, so I'll let you have your beliefs and Monday morning assumptions and let the historians have theirs.

Most absurd. FDR was one of the worst presidents America has ever had to endure. Please tell me what he did that was so great?

I would suggest some good history books. FDR has never been rated lower than third greatest president by historians and recently rated the greatest.

 

[Unkotare]

You make a number of assumptions and statements which are not borne out by the historical record but only based on your beliefs. FDR is rated by historians as America's greatest president, so I'll let you have your beliefs and Monday morning assumptions and let the historians have theirs.

Most absurd. FDR was one of the worst presidents America has ever had to endure. Please tell me what he did that was so great?

I would suggest some good history books. FDR has never been rated lower than third greatest president by historians and recently rated the greatest.

Name another president who threw over 100,000 brave, loyal, innocent Americans into concentration camps.

 

[regent]

Most absurd. FDR was one of the worst presidents America has ever had to endure. Please tell me what he did that was so great?

I would suggest some good history books. FDR has never been rated lower than third greatest president by historians and recently rated the greatest.

Name another president who threw over 100,000 brave, loyal, innocent Americans into concentration camps.

Are you suggesting that the historians did not know of this event? They knew and still rated FDR as the greatest. They also knew FDR had polio and came from a wealthy family and went to Groton. If they were noted historians they also knew that Lincoln violated the Constitution, and that Washington was married to Martha and liked to dance.

 

[whitehall]

The racism cut both ways. We know that the US had no espionage network prior to WW2. The information we managed to gather was in bits and pieces that the Brits thought we needed to hear and stuff that the Navy picked up. It's not hard to find evidence that the US government including both political parties actually held unofficial opinions that the Japanese were nearsighted little savages who had trouble with balance and couldn't manufacture a ship that would float or a plane that would fly. The focus was on the Nazi war machine. The Japanese thought of the Anglos as a decadent society that would not fight. The mass surrender of the Brits at Singapore and the US forces at Battan and Corrigador reinforced the racism. The Japanese were not as quick as the US to readjust their thinking even after the the land and Naval engagement at Guadalcanal proved the fighting ability of the Marines and Navy commanders but the US was quick to reevaluate it's war effort .

 

[Unkotare]

I would suggest some good history books. FDR has never been rated lower than third greatest president by historians and recently rated the greatest.

Name another president who threw over 100,000 brave, loyal, innocent Americans into concentration camps.

Are you suggesting that the historians did not know of this event?

Leaving aside your logical fallacy, can you name another president who committed such an atrocity?