The Myth of Sanders’ Socialism

[Rigby5]

Yeah ending non-stop wars and providing HC for all Americans as is done in all other western nations, is just so passé.

Thanks Hillary.

Not where most Americans are at right now, sorry. Most Americans think there are too many people on welfare.

They also don't really trust the government to run their health care if they have private insurance. Frankly, I disagree, but I understand the sentitment.

What Biden is proposing is more practical. Fix Obamacare, let people who are happy with their insurance keep their insurance.

But the question is whether or not you can fix Obamacare?
The problem with 3rd party payer is that you prepay and lose any ability to control prices or quality.
Seems to me that single payer is the only way to fix it.
We have to get healthcare prices down to half what they are now.

And we also have to stop all wars.
They are all not just illegal, but expensive, and make us much less safe, as people eventually are going to start retaliating.

 

[dudmuck]

True ignorance is common in the land of the (not) free. The billionaire’s media sees to that. This is yet another perfect example. This myth is believed by many on the right and left. The 1% who run everything don’t much like Bernie, so their media makes sure to dupe millions into thinking as they do.

MARCH 5, 2020
The Myth of Sanders’ “Socialism”
by M. G. PIETY

Fox News has an all-out frontal assault on Bernie Sanders’ purported “socialism.” It is a sad statement on the level of ignorance in this country that anyone could take seriously the charge that Sanders is a socialist. What Sanders is advocating is something approaching the social-welfare systems of other economically developed countries and that’s a far cry from the socialism Fox News is using as a boogeyman to frighten conservatives. The “socialism” Fox is decrying is the old-fashioned Stalinist-Maoist kind where all important industries are nationalized, most of the private property of the wealthy is seized by the state, and there are no such things as individual rights and freedoms because the very idea of “individuals” is considered capitalist propaganda.

The Myth of Sanders' "Socialism" - CounterPunch.org

Someone please advise the OP of the elephant in the room, which is Sanders describes himself as a socialist.

And all good governments are always socialist.
Anything a good government does is not for the profit motive, like roads, post office, etc., so then is always socialist.
Socialism is always good.
It is only the profit motive of capitalism where greed causes abuses, like slavery, feudalism, etc.

Hilarious..........................

Slade was just telling us how it's CONSERVATIVES who don't know the meaning of socialism.

YES! It is conservatives who do not at all know the meaning of socialism.
Whenever something is not done for a profit motive, it is socialism.
That is anything joint, collective, communal, or cooperative.
For example, when the workers start or buy their own company.
That is socialism.
In fact, any regulation of private enterprise, like laws against child labor, or trust busting, that is socialism.

Good Point
Most people that discuss ism's have no idea what they mean. The welfare state, socialism, and communism are not the same although conservatives use them rather interchangeably.

correct...

 

[Rigby5]

Hilarious..........................

Slade was just telling us how it's CONSERVATIVES who don't know the meaning of socialism.

YES! It is conservatives who do not at all know the meaning of socialism.
Whenever something is not done for a profit motive, it is socialism.
That is anything joint, collective, communal, or cooperative.
For example, when the workers start or buy their own company.
That is socialism.
In fact, any regulation of private enterprise, like laws against child labor, or trust busting, that is socialism.

Good Point
Most people that discuss ism's have no idea what they mean. The welfare state, socialism, and communism are not the same although conservatives use them rather interchangeably.

Socialism is the exact opposite of a dictatorship.
A dictatorship is when a wealthy elite prevent the majority from having any say, in order to get more profits out of them.
Socialism is when the majority get more say in how shared revenue is to be invested for the good of all.
Which mean less profits for the wealthy elite.




They are all stepping stones along the path to dictatorship.

I wonder why all of Western Europe isn’t controlled by dictators. Strange no?

You and I have no idea how things are run from the top. He said stepping stones, what does that mean to you?

2017 population -European Union 2017 population approx. 500 million.

In 2017, there were 112.8 million people in the EU-28 who lived in households at risk of poverty or social exclusion (AROPE), equivalent to 22.4 % of the entire populatio

TRUMP"S USA

• 
  
  • The official poverty rate in 2018 was 11.8 percent, down 0.5 percentage points from 12.3 percent in 2017. This is the fourth consecutive annual decline in poverty. Since 2014, the poverty rate has fallen 3.0 percentage points, from 14.8 percent to 11.8 percent.
  • In 2018, for the first time in 11 years, the official poverty rate was significantly lower than 2007, the year before the most recent recession.

A dictatorship is where the wealthy elite stop the majority from having any say, so that they can increase their profits at the expense of the majority.
That is the opposite of socialism, where the majority get more say in how shared resources are to be invested by government and the wealthy elite regulated against abusive practices like monopolies.

The poverty rate is always worse during wars, so ending wars showed an improvement, but that does not mean much.
Health care is still not as affordable as it should be.

 

[Rigby5]

Good Point
Most people that discuss ism's have no idea what they mean. The welfare state, socialism, and communism are not the same although conservatives use them rather interchangeably.

They are all stepping stones along the path to dictatorship.

I wonder why all of Western Europe isn’t controlled by dictators. Strange no?

Because they were killed.

LOL. You claim socialism leads to dictatorship. Well..,where are the dictatorships in Western Europe? They have had socialism as you define it, for decades and no dictatorships.

Well all the Albanians are in America fleeing socialism lol how come they won’t go back if it works?

There was never any socialism in Albania in the past.
Socialism is communal, collaborative, and collective.
Albania was essentially a singe person dictatorship, a monarchy without the title, for decades, under Hoxa.
But it is now a member of NATO, and is starting to be socialist now.

{...
A short-lived monarchical state known as the Principality of Albania (1914–1925) was succeeded by an even shorter-lived first Albanian Republic (1925–1928). Another monarchy, the Kingdom of Albania (1928–1939), replaced the republic. The country endured an occupation by Italy just prior to World War II. After the collapse of the Axis powers, Albania became a communist state, the Socialist People's Republic of Albania, which for most of its duration was dominated by Enver Hoxha (died 1985). Hoxha's political heir Ramiz Alia oversaw the disintegration of the "Hoxhaist" state during the wider collapse of the Eastern Bloc in the later 1980s.

The communist regime collapsed in 1990, and the former communist Party of Labour of Albania was routed in elections in March 1992, amid economic collapse and social unrest. The unstable economic situation led to an Albanian diaspora, mostly to Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Germany and North America during the 1990s. The crisis peaked in the Albanian Turmoil of 1997. An amelioration of the economic and political conditions in the early years of the 21st century enabled Albania to become a full member of NATO in 2009. The country is applying to join the European Union.
...}

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

So, can we all agree?

Bernie is a slimy little communist shit twinkle-toed ********** who just signed his own death warrant?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

I wonder why all of Western Europe isn’t controlled by dictators. Strange no?

Why?

 

[westwall]

They are all stepping stones along the path to dictatorship.

I wonder why all of Western Europe isn’t controlled by dictators. Strange no?

Because they were killed.

LOL. You claim socialism leads to dictatorship. Well..,where are the dictatorships in Western Europe? They have had socialism as you define it, for decades and no dictatorships.

No, they haven't. In fact the vast majority of them have retreated from socialism because they figured out it doesn't work, and is stupid.

LOL. They have what Bernie proposes and have had it for decades. Why is it socialism if Bernie proposes it, but not socialism when implemented in Western Europe decades ago?

No, they figured out that even that level of socialism was not sustainable.

The one exception is Denmark. Population 5 million, and the company Royal Dutch Shell to foot the majority of the costs.

Even with the oil company paying for most of the cost the Danish tax rates are extremely high.

 

[Rigby5]

So, can we all agree?

Bernie is a slimy little communist shit twinkle-toed ********** who just signed his own death warrant?

No, anyone who is not a socialist is in favor of a capitalist dictatorship and feudalism.
If you want public schools, roads without tolls, free fire fighting, public police, etc., then you are a socialist.
Everyone should be a socialist.

 

[Rigby5]

I wonder why all of Western Europe isn’t controlled by dictators. Strange no?

Because they were killed.

LOL. You claim socialism leads to dictatorship. Well..,where are the dictatorships in Western Europe? They have had socialism as you define it, for decades and no dictatorships.

No, they haven't. In fact the vast majority of them have retreated from socialism because they figured out it doesn't work, and is stupid.

LOL. They have what Bernie proposes and have had it for decades. Why is it socialism if Bernie proposes it, but not socialism when implemented in Western Europe decades ago?

No, they figured out that even that level of socialism was not sustainable.

The one exception is Denmark. Population 5 million, and the company Royal Dutch Shell to foot the majority of the costs.

Even with the oil company paying for most of the cost the Danish tax rates are extremely high.

Wrong.
The rest of the world spends less than half what we do on health care, per person, and they are very happy with socialism.
No one is retreating from socialism, because capitalist health care cost way more and is worse quality.

 

[westwall]

Because they were killed.

LOL. You claim socialism leads to dictatorship. Well..,where are the dictatorships in Western Europe? They have had socialism as you define it, for decades and no dictatorships.

No, they haven't. In fact the vast majority of them have retreated from socialism because they figured out it doesn't work, and is stupid.

LOL. They have what Bernie proposes and have had it for decades. Why is it socialism if Bernie proposes it, but not socialism when implemented in Western Europe decades ago?

No, they figured out that even that level of socialism was not sustainable.

The one exception is Denmark. Population 5 million, and the company Royal Dutch Shell to foot the majority of the costs.

Even with the oil company paying for most of the cost the Danish tax rates are extremely high.

Wrong.
The rest of the world spends less than half what we do on health care, per person, and they are very happy with socialism.
No one is retreating from socialism, because capitalist health care cost way more and is worse quality.

Yeah, which is why it sucks. I don't know about you but I don't want to have to wait 60 hours for an ambulance as happens not infrequently with Englands NHS.

Your problem is you only look at sources that fit your bias.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

So, can we all agree?

Bernie is a slimy little communist shit twinkle-toed ********** who just signed his own death warrant?

No, anyone who is not a socialist is in favor of a capitalist dictatorship and feudalism.
If you want public schools, roads without tolls, free fire fighting, public police, etc., then you are a socialist.
Everyone should be a socialist.

That is a bullshit lie told by Marxists to sell idiots on the idea of socialism being normal and practical. Because if we're already doing it, what's a little government owning/controlling the means of production, right?

HORSESHIT!!!

We have police and fire because it is impractical to have people competing to stop crime and put out fires. It is impractical to have 4-5 roads going to the same place, making poor use of land.

Turn your brain back on!

.

 

[Rigby5]

LOL. You claim socialism leads to dictatorship. Well..,where are the dictatorships in Western Europe? They have had socialism as you define it, for decades and no dictatorships.

No, they haven't. In fact the vast majority of them have retreated from socialism because they figured out it doesn't work, and is stupid.

LOL. They have what Bernie proposes and have had it for decades. Why is it socialism if Bernie proposes it, but not socialism when implemented in Western Europe decades ago?

No, they figured out that even that level of socialism was not sustainable.

The one exception is Denmark. Population 5 million, and the company Royal Dutch Shell to foot the majority of the costs.

Even with the oil company paying for most of the cost the Danish tax rates are extremely high.

Wrong.
The rest of the world spends less than half what we do on health care, per person, and they are very happy with socialism.
No one is retreating from socialism, because capitalist health care cost way more and is worse quality.

Yeah, which is why it sucks. I don't know about you but I don't want to have to wait 60 hours for an ambulance as happens not infrequently with Englands NHS.

Your problem is you only look at sources that fit your bias.

No, I have just talked to people who actually lived there.
They all say they get faster and better service there than here.
They will even fly back there for any medical procedure, rather than deal with the terrible health care here, even though they get full insurance from their employer here.
That is true with Canada as well.

 

[westwall]

No, they haven't. In fact the vast majority of them have retreated from socialism because they figured out it doesn't work, and is stupid.

LOL. They have what Bernie proposes and have had it for decades. Why is it socialism if Bernie proposes it, but not socialism when implemented in Western Europe decades ago?

No, they figured out that even that level of socialism was not sustainable.

The one exception is Denmark. Population 5 million, and the company Royal Dutch Shell to foot the majority of the costs.

Even with the oil company paying for most of the cost the Danish tax rates are extremely high.

Wrong.
The rest of the world spends less than half what we do on health care, per person, and they are very happy with socialism.
No one is retreating from socialism, because capitalist health care cost way more and is worse quality.

Yeah, which is why it sucks. I don't know about you but I don't want to have to wait 60 hours for an ambulance as happens not infrequently with Englands NHS.

Your problem is you only look at sources that fit your bias.

No, I have just talked to people who actually lived there.
They all say they get faster and better service there than here.
They will even fly back there for any medical procedure, rather than deal with the terrible health care here, even though they get full insurance from their employer here.
That is true with Canada as well.

Yeah, I have lived there too. Canadian medical care is so great we have a wing of Renown hospital here in Reno known as the Canada wing.

Hell, their politicians come HERE for their medical procedures.

Try reading a out the failure of public health instead of listening to "people".

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

First of all, Nazi means National Socialist, which is fascism.

???? Nazis, socialists, Fascists, Liberals, communists , Kings, and dictators are all essentially the same according to our genius Founders who made all of those forms of powerful central govt illegal in favor of freedom. Now do you understand?

 

[gipper]

LOL. They have what Bernie proposes and have had it for decades. Why is it socialism if Bernie proposes it, but not socialism when implemented in Western Europe decades ago?

No, they figured out that even that level of socialism was not sustainable.

The one exception is Denmark. Population 5 million, and the company Royal Dutch Shell to foot the majority of the costs.

Even with the oil company paying for most of the cost the Danish tax rates are extremely high.

Wrong.
The rest of the world spends less than half what we do on health care, per person, and they are very happy with socialism.
No one is retreating from socialism, because capitalist health care cost way more and is worse quality.

Yeah, which is why it sucks. I don't know about you but I don't want to have to wait 60 hours for an ambulance as happens not infrequently with Englands NHS.

Your problem is you only look at sources that fit your bias.

No, I have just talked to people who actually lived there.
They all say they get faster and better service there than here.
They will even fly back there for any medical procedure, rather than deal with the terrible health care here, even though they get full insurance from their employer here.
That is true with Canada as well.

Yeah, I have lived there too. Canadian medical care is so great we have a wing of Renown hospital here in Reno known as the Canada wing.

Hell, their politicians come HERE for their medical procedures.

Try reading a out the failure of public health instead of listening to "people".

There are huge problems with HC in the US. Most expensive in the world. Yet, Americans are living shorter for the first time. Millions incur huge HC costs they can’t pay and many seek bankruptcy. Wait times are often long, if you don’t have money.

But you will keep thinking all is peaches and cream, I guess because you got yours and don’t give a **** about others.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

And fascism is a dictatorship by a coalition of the military, industrialists, and aristocracy.
So obviously Castro could not at all be a fascist Nazi.

???He was the perfect fascist!! Didn't he control military industry and aristocracy???

 

[Rigby5]

So, can we all agree?

Bernie is a slimy little communist shit twinkle-toed ********** who just signed his own death warrant?

No, anyone who is not a socialist is in favor of a capitalist dictatorship and feudalism.
If you want public schools, roads without tolls, free fire fighting, public police, etc., then you are a socialist.
Everyone should be a socialist.

That is a bullshit lie told by Marxists to sell idiots on the idea of socialism being normal and practical. Because if we're already doing it, what's a little government owning/controlling the means of production, right?

HORSESHIT!!!

We have police and fire because it is impractical to have people competing to stop crime and put out fires. It is impractical to have 4-5 roads going to the same place, making poor use of land.

Turn your brain back on!

.

Socialism is NOT government owning the means of production, but just regulating it to prevent abuses.
Do you want child labor, slavery, and monopolies?
Or do you want socialism?
There is nothing in between.
If you have any regulation over the means of production, that is socialism.
If you have any public enterprise, like road, schools, fire fighting, etc., that is socialism.

Of course we have socialism for police, fire, roads, etc., because it is practical.
That is the point.
Socialism is practical.

 

[gipper]

And fascism is a dictatorship by a coalition of the military, industrialists, and aristocracy.
So obviously Castro could not at all be a fascist Nazi.

???He was the perfect fascist!! Didn't he control military industry and aristocracy???

The US government has supported fascist dictators for decades. Still does. So, what you bitching about?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

It was Batista who was the fascist Nazi.
.

not at all, obviously. He did not write a book or subscribe to a philosophy of government. He was a mere dictator who wanted power; he had no desire to rape the souls of his subjects based on an idea like Castro did.

 

[Rigby5]

LOL. They have what Bernie proposes and have had it for decades. Why is it socialism if Bernie proposes it, but not socialism when implemented in Western Europe decades ago?

No, they figured out that even that level of socialism was not sustainable.

The one exception is Denmark. Population 5 million, and the company Royal Dutch Shell to foot the majority of the costs.

Even with the oil company paying for most of the cost the Danish tax rates are extremely high.

Wrong.
The rest of the world spends less than half what we do on health care, per person, and they are very happy with socialism.
No one is retreating from socialism, because capitalist health care cost way more and is worse quality.

Yeah, which is why it sucks. I don't know about you but I don't want to have to wait 60 hours for an ambulance as happens not infrequently with Englands NHS.

Your problem is you only look at sources that fit your bias.

No, I have just talked to people who actually lived there.
They all say they get faster and better service there than here.
They will even fly back there for any medical procedure, rather than deal with the terrible health care here, even though they get full insurance from their employer here.
That is true with Canada as well.

Yeah, I have lived there too. Canadian medical care is so great we have a wing of Renown hospital here in Reno known as the Canada wing.

Hell, their politicians come HERE for their medical procedures.

Try reading a out the failure of public health instead of listening to "people".

In general everyone says Canadian health care is better than the US.
But Canada has a much smaller population, so there are not as many specialists.
So people do come here for specialists, but that is just economy of scale, not that we have a better system.