The Meaning of Parables

[walwor]

"...it was said that He was crying while His creations were being murdered."

'It was said'? Where was this said, and who said it, and by what authority did they speak for G-d?

"You won't know His reasons or rewards until you are no longer on this earthly plane."

If you don't go to heaven, then what is this otherworldly "plane" you speak of?

"You say that you cannot cry out to G-d for He doesn't answer you without an intermediary son and mother."

Are you addressing me? I said nothing about an intermediary mother.

"Does Jesus answer your prayers by being an intermediary to G-d?"

Yes, He does.

"The children of Israel had for a long time turned their face away from G-d and their covenant with Him. Ergo the Creator formed Hitler and the Arabs for a specific purpose to punish His children for their choice to abandon Him and try to become like the nations around them. The European Jews said they were Germans, French, Polish, etc first and lost their way from G-d."

Where do you live, aj? You don't by any chance live in America, do you? Are you a Jew first, or an American first? If you live in America, why not live in Israel? That would be a much better expression of your faith, don't you think? You could take your personal knowledge of the will of the Creator, including His judgment on the Jews of the Holocaust, and speak to the secular Jews of Israel, instead of spending your time on this message board arguing with Christians to no real purpose.

 

[ajwps]

"...it was said that He was crying while His creations were being murdered." 'It was said'? Where was this said, and who said it, and by what authority did they speak for G-d?

It was said by the concentration camp inmates who were burning the bodies of their friends and relatives under the guns of the Nazis. Does that answer your question?

"You won't know His reasons or rewards until you are no longer on this earthly plane." If you don't go to heaven, then what is this otherworldly "plane" you speak of?

The same timeless dimension that you existed in before you were ever born, while you live and where you will continue on after you die? Prove me wrong.

"You say that you cannot cry out to G-d for He doesn't answer you without an intermediary son and mother." Are you addressing me? I said nothing about an intermediary mother.

No but you employed a similar analogy that your pleas for salvation must go through an intermediary (Christ) before G-d would entertain your being washed of your sins.

"Does Jesus answer your prayers by being an intermediary to G-d?"

Yes, He does.

Really? Do you some sort of proof that Christ answered your prayers like a signed afadavit?

How is that you know this fact of Jesus returned prayers for certain? Did your bible tell you so? Please offer real proof other than the words of men who revised a gospel century after century?

"The children of Israel had for a long time turned their face away from G-d and their covenant with Him. Ergo the Creator formed Hitler and the Arabs for a specific purpose to punish His children for their choice to abandon Him and try to become like the nations around them. The European Jews said they were Germans, French, Polish, etc first and lost their way from G-d."

Where do you live, aj? You don't by any chance live in America, do you? Are you a Jew first, or an American first? If you live in America, why not live in Israel? That would be a much better expression of your faith, don't you think? You could take your personal knowledge of the will of the Creator, including His judgment on the Jews of the Holocaust, and speak to the secular Jews of Israel, instead of spending your time on this message board arguing with Christians to no real purpose.

Can you read my location to the right side of my avatar? What does that matter?

Walwor are you an American first or a Christian first? Why don't you go to Afghanastan and preach your own personal knowledge of the will of Jesus? Why do you waste your time instead of answering valid questions? I have no intention of converting you or of making you lose faith in your god.

What real purpose do you serve on this earth?

 

[walwor]

"It was said by the concentration camp inmates who were burning the bodies of their friends and relatives under the guns of the Nazis. Does that answer your question?"

No, it doesn't. It doesn't fit your description of these same Jews being murdered because they forsook G-d and said they were French or German first. I am trying to get at what YOU believe, since all you do is jump on every Christian post and start your same, tired arguments. And by the way, don't think this answer of yours gives you some moral upper hand- I have told you I am Jewish by birth, and would have been on the same train to Auschwitz as you, regardless of what faith I proclaimed.

"The same timeless dimension that you existed in before you were ever born, while you live and where you will continue on after you die? Prove me wrong."

Prove you wrong? I agree with you. You just exclude G-d from existing there, while I do not.

"Really? Do you some sort of proof that Christ answered your prayers like a signed afadavit?"

I don't believe I need one. It is of course preposterous to expect some concrete proof of something spiritual. It is you, my friend, who stereotypes all Christians as expecting their prayers to be answered with money and other material things, but this is something I have never said. Of course, you insist on stereotyping me, because you are all about stereotyping, similar to William Joyce who stereotypes the Jews in the negative way that gets him off.

"How is that you know this fact of Jesus returned prayers for certain?"

Because I know. How do you know about this timeless place where we exist before we were born, continue in now, and will continue in when we die? Do you have a sworn affidavit? Can you show me proof of this place? Or do you believe it because "your bible tells you so." And do you understand I am being ironic in asking you this way, or will you just respond with your typical lack of subtlety?

"Can you read my location to the right side of my avatar? What does that matter?"

What does that matter? My Lord, I don't understand how you can miss it. Let me spell it out:

a) You said that G-d punished the Jews of Europe for wanting to be Germans, French, etc., first.
b) I asked what country YOU live in, being a Jew who does NOT live in the Promised Land. And I ask you, further-
c) Why is it you think G-d doesn't think of you in the same obviously very negative way that you say He thought of the Jews of Europe?

Boy, that's tough to get, huh?

"Walwor are you an American first or a Christian first? Why don't you go to Afghanastan and preach your own personal knowledge of the will of Jesus?"

I am a Christian first. Being a Christian does not imply that there is some other country I would put before America, whereas there are people who would ask if you would place Israel before America. Why don't I go to Afghanistan? Why would I go to Afghanistan? I have no ties to Afghanistan in any way, shape or form, whereas YOU are a Jew living comfortably in the United States rather than in Israel where the bombs are going off. It's easy to be SuperJew in the USA. Moving to Israel makes you put your money where your mouth is.

And now I will tell you something else. I DID make the effort, in my early 30's, to make Aliyah. Being unfamiliar with the language and culture of Israel, I tried to ascend by going through an Ulpan program- that is where you stay on a kibbutz for an initial period of time. However, the form I had to fill out asked me my religion. I put "Christian." From a practical standpoint, I should probably have just left it blank, but to have been dishonest would have dishonored my whole reason for going. I was subsequently turned down for the Ulpan, despite my Jewish heritage, Jewish blood by a Jewish mother, and desire to move to Israel. Now I am quite sure you will find some means to attack me for this, but I was WILLING to make the trip. It was not given to me, by G-d, Jesus, to do so at that time. I have still not ruled it out, by some other means, but will only try again if I feel the Spirit move me. Go on and start your invective- How will I KNOW it is the Spirit? Will I ask for a "signed affidavit?" But first answer this- there's nothing stopping YOU from making Aliyah. Why don't you? Don't you want to be where your Jewish brethren are, live with them, suffer with them, stand with them, fight alongside them? If not, why not?

 

[ajwps]

"It was said by the concentration camp inmates who were burning the bodies of their friends and relatives under the guns of the Nazis. Does that answer your question?"

No, it doesn't. It doesn't fit your description of these same Jews being murdered because they forsook G-d and said they were French or German first. I am trying to get at what YOU believe, since all you do is jump on every Christian post and start your same, tired arguments. And by the way, don't think this answer of yours gives you some moral upper hand- I have told you I am Jewish by birth, and would have been on the same train to Auschwitz as you, regardless of what faith I proclaimed.

So you believe that I meant God was punishing the Jewish people in the holocaust for their wanting to be Europeans instead of their disobedience to His commandments. That G-d was somehow happy to see the guilty and innocent Jews and gentiles murderered. Men, women, children and babies thrown into the fires of the Nazi concentration camps pleases G-d? Do you think that the Creator who also gave the Nazis and their Arab partners the 'freewill' with which to destroy His children and did not 'cry' (a metaphor for not interfering in their acts) while the tens of millions were killed. Exactly the same events happening to this very day with all the innocents being murdered around the world because of immorality and lack of following His commandments.

You say my arguments are tired and retreads? While your new found faith of Christianity has ONE main theme which is repeated tirelessly over and over and over again. "You are freed from your inborn and acquired sins by the the death of Jesus." EOM. While the faith you claim to have forsaken has the basis foundation for everyday life and living on this earth but does not give free salvation for that sweet bye and bye with a raptured Jesus. You have made your choice to accept Jesus Christ and I respect it.

"The same timeless dimension that you existed in before you were ever born, while you live and where you will continue on after you die? Prove me wrong."

Prove you wrong? I agree with you. You just exclude G-d from existing there, while I do not.

I did not exclude G-d from that same timelessness in which He created all things including this existence in which we find ourselves during this short lifetime. I simply chose not to state my opinion that only three things are real in this dimension. 1) G-d 2) Torah 3) Free will. All the rest are simply a perception from our 'free will' from which we assume our reality exists. But that is only my humble opinion.

"Really? Do you some sort of proof that Christ answered your prayers like a signed afadavit?"

I don't believe I need one. It is of course preposterous to expect some concrete proof of something spiritual. It is you, my friend, who stereotypes all Christians as expecting their prayers to be answered with money and other material things, but this is something I have never said. Of course, you insist on stereotyping me, because you are all about stereotyping, similar to William Joyce who stereotypes the Jews in the negative way that gets him off.

The reality is that I don't intentionally stereotype anyone or their beliefs. Did you really think that I expected you to prove that Christ answers your prayers and requests? There are atheists and agnostics who survive cancer or plane crashes while there are those who fervently believe and pray to their own G-d but die from the same causes or suffer tragedies and pain. You may perceive that I sterotype you, Christians or Muslims and thereby you place me in the catagory of William Joyce. My opinions relating to G-d are mine alone and are not to be confused with the putting down or denegrating any other's beliefs. I believe that all humanity is created by the same G-d and are all of His children no matter what they choose to believe or to whom they pray. No one is superior to one another in this life of ours and no one is chosen above others or for any special treatment by the Creator.

"How is that you know this fact of Jesus returned prayers for certain?"

Because I know. How do you know about this timeless place where we exist before we were born, continue in now, and will continue in when we die? Do you have a sworn affidavit? Can you show me proof of this place? Or do you believe it because "your bible tells you so." And do you understand I am being ironic in asking you this way, or will you just respond with your typical lack of subtlety?

Actually the Torah (bible) only hints at a timeless dimension. But actually the concept of a timeless dimension is only an assumption of reality created by an eternal Creator and now is just beginning to be understood (begrudingly) by the scientific community. These immutable unchanging laws of physics are now pointing to just such a timeless dimension in which nothing is real including our percieved solid matter, energy, gravity or even a universe which has heretofore been unexplainable. i.e., what is on the other side of our universe, why does matter seem to be only interchanagable with energy or how does an earth particle instantly affect any other particle in what we think of as this universe? In truth there is more than an affadavit of this assumed reality. But in truth, only G-d knows for certain.

"Can you read my location to the right side of my avatar? What does that matter?"

What does that matter? My Lord, I don't understand how you can miss it. Let me spell it out:

a) You said that G-d punished the Jews of Europe for wanting to be Germans, French, etc., first.
b) I asked what country YOU live in, being a Jew who does NOT live in the Promised Land. And I ask you, further-
c) Why is it you think G-d doesn't think of you in the same obviously very negative way that you say He thought of the Jews of Europe? Boy, that's tough to get, huh?

Oh so you missed my point. G-d did not punish the Jews for wanting to be Europeans before being Jews. He punished His children for trying to be like the gentiles nations around them and thereby turning away from His commandments of morality and ethical behavior which was between G-d and His people. This resulted in no 'light unto the nations' as His convenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There are Jews all over the earth. Just because a majority of the Jewish people who lived in Israel turned from G-d and were taken off into the diaspora does not mean that they will return in a flash of light. We who live outside of Israel, love our American homeland but also know that eventually we all will return to Israel from every corner of the earth. That is a prophecy in the Torah (Old Testament for those who forgot this word.) Does it matter where a Jew lives? If an American Jew does not turn away from G-d but loves and lives in awe of Him, does justice, has mercy and provides for his fellowman's needs; that person (Jew or gentile) is following the road of goodness for all to emulate.

"Walwor are you an American first or a Christian first? Why don't you go to Afghanastan and preach your own personal knowledge of the will of Jesus?"

I am a Christian first. Being a Christian does not imply that there is some other country I would put before America, whereas there are people who would ask if you would place Israel before America. Why don't I go to Afghanistan? Why would I go to Afghanistan? I have no ties to Afghanistan in any way, shape or form, whereas YOU are a Jew living comfortably in the United States rather than in Israel where the bombs are going off. It's easy to be SuperJew in the USA. Moving to Israel makes you put your money where your mouth is.

Are you not interested in following Jesus injunction to go forth and spread the word to the lost souls of the world? Do you think that being in America is either comfortable (from anti-semitic people) or are not performing good deed so despised by St. Paul. Being in Israel right now is for the most part being among secular Jews who turn their faces away from G-d where those bombs are going off killing the same secular and even religious just like the Nazi holocaust. The only thing that will bring peace to Israel and the world is the prophecy of a time when the wolf will lay with the lamb and the lion will eat hay. When men will turn their swords into plowshares and war will be known no more. I believe that this day will come but not with a god showing up and fulfilling this prophecy. That day will come when G-d has had enough of depravity, evil and following other gods made from the hand of man.

No one left standing will think that it was man who fulfilled this prophecy but G-d Himself and no other gods. But that is just my opinion and that of the eon old Prophets of Israel.

And now I will tell you something else. I DID make the effort, in my early 30's, to make Aliyah. Being unfamiliar with the language and culture of Israel, I tried to ascend by going through an Ulpan program- that is where you stay on a kibbutz for an initial period of time. However, the form I had to fill out asked me my religion. I put "Christian." From a practical standpoint, I should probably have just left it blank, but to have been dishonest would have dishonored my whole reason for going. I was subsequently turned down for the Ulpan, despite my Jewish heritage, Jewish blood by a Jewish mother, and desire to move to Israel. Now I am quite sure you will find some means to attack me for this, but I was WILLING to make the trip. It was not given to me, by G-d, Jesus, to do so at that time. I have still not ruled it out, by some other means, but will only try again if I feel the Spirit move me. Go on and start your invective- How will I KNOW it is the Spirit? Will I ask for a "signed affidavit?" But first answer this- there's nothing stopping YOU from making Aliyah. Why don't you? Don't you want to be where your Jewish brethren are, live with them, suffer with them, stand with them, fight alongside them? If not, why not?

You unlike St. Paul did not use PRETENSE (Philippians 1:18) to go forth and convert the unsaved Jews in their own land. Many in my immediate family have begun making Alliyah now as are many from around the world are beginning to do. I travel to Israel every year, not to make Alliyah yet but to see for myself the state of the people who live there and forsake G-d. Alliyah will be the eventual result of all the Jewish people around the world as stated in the Torah and Prophets of Israel. G-d Himself has said as much in the Torah.

I do not wish to be a part of the current immorality of a desecration of G-d in Israel at this time. Much good can be done from my place right here where I have been placed by birth.

Just as you have unwavering faith in the son Jesus, I have the same in the Father of all humanity. You will eventually learn your truth or that of G-d.

Only a remnant of those Jews in the world will survive leaving a base from which to form a nation that follows the will of the Creator.

IMHO

 

[walwor]

aj-

I have to say that at least you have the capacity to surprise me. Your tone in this reply is actually civil. I will address your points, but allow me to say something. The reason I have gotten rather touchy and argumentative with you is that I see you jumping in almost every time someone mentions Jesus, and the things you say about Him are vindictive and largely specious. You argue that Jesus must have approved of abortion since He didn't specifically protest against it. But, seriously, it wouldn't satisfy you if He did speak against abortion, because you would say, "Well why didn't He mention genocide?" And if He went into a litany of every crime ever committed by man, would that satisfy you? Of course not, you'd find some other reason to disbelieve Him. I remember a program years ago where there was an atheist explaining why he didn't believe in G-d. He said, "If there were something in the Bible that we could verify, like that the Nile is the longest river in the world, then I'd believe it." And although this was some time ago, even then I knew that this was a ridiculous idea- if the Bible said that, atheists would say it was a coincidence that it was correct, and would have numerous other objections. The truth is, the Bible is not a science book, and does not purport to be one, and if we believe it is because G-d has blessed us to believe, and if not, then I suppose G-d has hidden Himself. And so I think your point about Jesus not mentioning abortion falls into this category of expecting the "all-knowing, omniscient" G-d to have known enough to answer every last possible question and doubt, which G-d in the Torah doesn't even attempt, so why expect it of Jesus?

QUOTE=aj] So you believe that I meant God was punishing the Jewish people in the holocaust for their wanting to be Europeans instead of their disobedience to His commandments. That G-d was somehow happy to see the guilty and innocent Jews and gentiles murderered. Men, women, children and babies thrown into the fires of the Nazi concentration camps pleases G-d? Do you think that the Creator who also gave the Nazis and their Arab partners the 'freewill' with which to destroy His children and did not 'cry' (a metaphor for not interfering in their acts) while the tens of millions were killed. Exactly the same events happening to this very day with all the innocents being murdered around the world because of immorality and lack of following His commandments.

I took your own phrase, that the Jews were trying to be German, French, etc., first, and I extrapolated from that. If that wasn't what you meant, then you must please be more specific. As for the "freewill" of Nazis and Arabs- is it freewill, or have they been seduced and deceived by the Devil. Now, here's a whole new subject, and you can't tell me that the Torah doesn't mention the Devil, because of course he shows up in the Garden of Eden by the second chapter of the first book. The last thing I would ascribe to Nazi or Moslem murderers is free will.

"You say my arguments are tired and retreads? While your new found faith of Christianity has ONE main theme which is repeated tirelessly over and over and over again. "You are freed from your inborn and acquired sins by the the death of Jesus." EOM. While the faith you claim to have forsaken has the basis foundation for everyday life and living on this earth but does not give free salvation for that sweet bye and bye with a raptured Jesus. You have made your choice to accept Jesus Christ and I respect it."

You introduce things that you find on websites. You invited me to go debate a website in a previous message, saying that "It's a Christian website." As if that matters! Similarly, the Arabs have a faithful coterie of anti-Israel, borderline anti-Semitic Jews whom they quote as saying the Jews should give up Israel. Do we assume these are Jews who represent any significant majority, or significant point of view? Of course not.

"I did not exclude G-d from that same timelessness in which He created all things including this existence in which we find ourselves during this short lifetime. I simply chose not to state my opinion that only three things are real in this dimension. 1) G-d 2) Torah 3) Free will. All the rest are simply a perception from our 'free will' from which we assume our reality exists. But that is only my humble opinion."

You said that there is no Heaven where we go to live with G-d or Jesus. But if we exist in that timeless place, and G-d is there, then aren't we there with our Creator?

"The reality is that I don't intentionally stereotype anyone or their beliefs. Did you really think that I expected you to prove that Christ answers your prayers and requests? There are atheists and agnostics who survive cancer or plane crashes while there are those who fervently believe and pray to their own G-d but die from the same causes or suffer tragedies and pain. You may perceive that I sterotype you, Christians or Muslims and thereby you place me in the catagory of William Joyce. My opinions relating to G-d are mine alone and are not to be confused with the putting down or denegrating any other's beliefs. I believe that all humanity is created by the same G-d and are all of His children no matter what they choose to believe or to whom they pray. No one is superior to one another in this life of ours and no one is chosen above others or for any special treatment by the Creator."

I mentioned William Joyce to shock you into reasonableness. If you were William Joyce I would merely dismiss you. However, you are, in this quote directly above, placing yourself in the category of "live and let live" or "believe and let believe," which does NOT reflect the tone of most of your posts on this message board toward Christians or Jesus. Your tone is frequently combative. You present your points with a measure of venom. Hey, we all enjoy a good argument, but you're taken with your own animated icon of David defeating Goliath, taking on all the Christians. Not that this in and of itself makes a difference, but American Christian Zionists are very supportive of Israel. I appreciate them, because I am one. You can give your reasons for not believing in Christ, and give people a chance to answer, but you don't do that. You slam Jesus and hammer away with unsubstantiated claims that nothing in the Gospels is true, it was all written after the fact, etc. The truth is, the claims that the Gospels weren't written until hundreds of years after Christ is under serious debate- there is very good evidence that the bulk of the Gospels were written down before the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d.

"Oh so you missed my point. G-d did not punish the Jews for wanting to be Europeans before being Jews. He punished His children for trying to be like the gentiles nations around them and thereby turning away from His commandments of morality and ethical behavior which was between G-d and His people..."

Now, hold on. It is during the diaspora that Judaism as we know it today was developed. Are you saying that the writings of Moses Maimonides, or the Talmud, represent a turning away from the commandments? The Jews pretty much held faithful to G-d, although truthfully it was rabbinical tradition they were being faithful to. I'm sure you already know we disagree here- you said this in an above quote:

"Do you think that the Creator who also gave the Nazis and their Arab partners the 'freewill' with which to destroy His children and did not 'cry' (a metaphor for not interfering in their acts) while the tens of millions were killed."

You say that G-d's "crying" is a metaphor for not interfering in the acts of the Nazis and Arabs. I will go you one better. G-d did cry, and He cried because the Jews rejected His Son, and by rejecting the ONE TRUE PATH to G-d for men (Jesus said "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one gets to the Father except through Me.") their prayers went unanswered, because G-d explicitly made Jesus the Intercessor. If the Jews converted to Christ tomorrow, all their troubles with the Arabs would disappear in a nanosecond. We won't realize this until the Second Coming of Christ, when the Jews WILL realize they were wrong about Jesus all along. Look, I know you don't agree with me, but if you really have the respect for my beliefs which you say you do, do me this ONE favor. Read Romans 11, all the way through, and uncritically. This is Paul's tract on the disbelief of the Jews. Come on, it's just one chapter.

"This resulted in no 'light unto the nations' as His convenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There are Jews all over the earth. Just because a majority of the Jewish people who lived in Israel turned from G-d and were taken off into the diaspora does not mean that they will return in a flash of light. We who live outside of Israel, love our American homeland but also know that eventually we all will return to Israel from every corner of the earth. That is a prophecy in the Torah (Old Testament for those who forgot this word.) Does it matter where a Jew lives? If an American Jew does not turn away from G-d but loves and lives in awe of Him, does justice, has mercy and provides for his fellowman's needs; that person (Jew or gentile) is following the road of goodness for all to emulate."

I defer comment until later.

"Are you not interested in following Jesus injunction to go forth and spread the word to the lost souls of the world? Do you think that being in America is either comfortable (from anti-semitic people) or are not performing good deed so despised by St. Paul. Being in Israel right now is for the most part being among secular Jews who turn their faces away from G-d where those bombs are going off killing the same secular and even religious just like the Nazi holocaust. The only thing that will bring peace to Israel and the world is the prophecy of a time when the wolf will lay with the lamb and the lion will eat hay. When men will turn their swords into plowshares and war will be known no more. I believe that this day will come but not with a god showing up and fulfilling this prophecy. That day will come when G-d has had enough of depravity, evil and following other gods made from the hand of man."

Jesus actually told His disciples to go to His lost sheep of the house of Israel.
I don't disagree with the rest of this, except for this "good deeds so despised by St. Paul" bit. You still don't get the concept. St. Paul did NOT tell Christians not to be good or do good works. He said that one does not enter Heaven by "works," that G-d is not pleased by our actions but by our Faith. If we have the faith, we will do the good works, but doing good works without faith is empty gestures. If you would read Paul without the chip on your shoulder, you would see he was really a lot wiser and more good than you think, albeit he wasn't the Messiah, and actually he never claims anything for himself.

"No one left standing will think that it was man who fulfilled this prophecy but G-d Himself and no other gods. But that is just my opinion and that of the eon old Prophets of Israel."

No argument.

"You unlike St. Paul did not use PRETENSE (Philippians 1:18) to go forth and convert the unsaved Jews in their own land. Many in my immediate family have begun making Alliyah now as are many from around the world are beginning to do. I travel to Israel every year, not to make Alliyah yet but to see for myself the state of the people who live there and forsake G-d. Alliyah will be the eventual result of all the Jewish people around the world as stated in the Torah and Prophets of Israel. G-d Himself has said as much in the Torah.

I do not wish to be a part of the current immorality of a desecration of G-d in Israel at this time. Much good can be done from my place right here where I have been placed by birth. "

I appreciate your comment that I did not use pretense. However, proper context again proves you wrong. Philippians 1:12-18 says this:

"But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, so that it has become evident to the whole palace guard, and to all the rest, that my chains are in Christ; and most of the brethren in the Lord, having become confident by my chains, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Some indeed preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."

Does Paul here say that he preaches Christ in pretense? ABSOLUTELY NOT! He says that his situation, being in prison, has brought men to be bold and preach Christ, and even though some preach out of selfish ambition, he still rejoices because Christ is preached. This is not what you say it is, which is a call by Paul to preach by pretense. You do NOT take the context into account when you say things, and this is an unfortunately common thing in American discourse. It's like when Republicans attack Democrats, or vice versa. Neither side will give the other any credit. If there's a possible negative spin, they will present it, without a thought or a care for what was actually said or meant. But if you and I are talking about G-d, then our standards MUST be higher, or we are playing politics with G-d, and I'll tell you that's one thing I don't want to be accused of on Judgment Day- treating G-d like a politician. LOL

"Just as you have unwavering faith in the son Jesus, I have the same in the Father of all humanity. You will eventually learn your truth or that of G-d.

Only a remnant of those Jews in the world will survive leaving a base from which to form a nation that follows the will of the Creator.

IMHO"

And you, too, will eventually learn the truth, from G-d. We all will, and we will all realize we fell into error somewhere. I don't ask you to take my word for anything, aj, but I merely ask that you stop treating Jesus with so much disrespect, and give His message a chance to speak to you. There are atheists who read the Torah and find only points to argue. You and I both know that the Torah is true. There we agree. I started life as a Jew. I read the Gospels and became a Christian. I then heard the claim by Moslems that Islam is the true seal of G-d and the prophets, and so I read the Qur'an, thinking maybe I was missing something. I did not get seduced by the Qur'an. The reason is that the Qur'an specifically states 1) that Jesus was not the Son of G-d (or at least not the son of Allah, which I know He isn't); 2) that Jesus was not crucified (which denies the whole point of the Gospels, if you don't mind my saying); and 3) that Mohammed, also known as Ahmed, was the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) spoken of by Jesus, which is patently false because it arises from an error in Greek translation. These 3 Christian points are the reason I have to reject the Qur'an. Of course there are plenty of others, like the claim that Abraham set out to sacrifice Ishmael, instead of Isaac. This isn't an easy point to make, but don't you think that if something as evil as Islam came into being to deny that Jesus was the Son of G-d, that maybe there's actually something to Jesus? I don't say that like it's conclusive, but it's gotta make you think. No?

 

[ajwps]

aj-

I have to say that at least you have the capacity to surprise me. Your tone in this reply is actually civil. I will address your points, but allow me to say something. The reason I have gotten rather touchy and argumentative with you is that I see you jumping in almost every time someone mentions Jesus, and the things you say about Him are vindictive and largely specious.

If you interpret my posts as vindictive or largely specious about Jesus, you must also ignore the English words of the Gospels as being specious or means something else than what the words actually say.

You argue that Jesus must have approved of abortion since He didn't specifically protest against it. But, seriously, it wouldn't satisfy you if He did speak against abortion, because you would say, "Well why didn't He mention genocide?" And if He went into a litany of every crime ever committed by man, would that satisfy you? Of course not, you'd find some other reason to disbelieve Him.

Why are you changing the subject of abortion to everything else not said by the Gospels in Jesus name? Jesus didn't talk about gamma rays but we were tallking about something of which he was aware during his time on earth namely abortion? If the Gospels had quoted Jesus as saying abortion was a sin because it was killing the preborn with a soul, I would have nothing with which to disagree. Again, apparently Jesus did not consider abortion wrong as he was a witness to it occuring in the land of the Roman overseers. Please stay on topic.

I remember a program years ago where there was an atheist explaining why he didn't believe in G-d. He said, "If there were something in the Bible that we could verify, like that the Nile is the longest river in the world, then I'd believe it." And although this was some time ago, even then I knew that this was a ridiculous idea- if the Bible said that, atheists would say it was a coincidence that it was correct, and would have numerous other objections. The truth is, the Bible is not a science book, and does not purport to be one, and if we believe it is because G-d has blessed us to believe, and if not, then I suppose G-d has hidden Himself.

Did you say that the Bible is not a science book nor purports to be one? I must say that SCIENCE creation of things are pretty well being documented in Genesis by the world of SCIENCE today, i.e., the Big Bang, the formation of all the species in a short time span as documented all species found in the Cambrian layer of the earth, etc.

And so I think your point about Jesus not mentioning abortion falls into this category of expecting the "all-knowing, omniscient" G-d to have known enough to answer every last possible question and doubt, which G-d in the Torah doesn't even attempt, so why expect it of Jesus?

Not really. In fact it is now believed by many that the Torah contains the blueprint of all things, from creation to an end to existence of man hidden with the Hebrew letters. But that is a matter of great debate now in the scientific community.

If abortion is such a giant SIN, then Jesus simply forgot to mention this to his disciples or apostles to be included in the NT. If Jesus didn't think it important, why all the fuss by Christians today trying to second guess Jesus?

I took your own phrase, that the Jews were trying to be German, French, etc., first, and I extrapolated from that. If that wasn't what you meant, then you must please be more specific.

I will try to be more specific in the future but like your claim for Jesus, I can't mention everything for you might think I was trying to be the same as Christ and abortion.

As for the "freewill" of Nazis and Arabs- is it freewill, or have they been seduced and deceived by the Devil. Now, here's a whole new subject, and you can't tell me that the Torah doesn't mention the Devil, because of course he shows up in the Garden of Eden by the second chapter of the first book. The last thing I would ascribe to Nazi or Moslem murderers is free will.

I can only refer to the King James Version of the New Testament and the Torah but there is no mention of Satan or Devil in all of Genesis. There is only a mention of a serpent who seduced Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. It is interesting that you believe that Nazis and/or Muslims do not have 'free will.' Do you think that the Nazis and the Muslims do their evil at the direction of some unmentioned devil/Satan as though they were automatons or robots without any will of their own? If you wish to equate this serpent with a horned, pitch fork, red tailed devil, well that is a bit of a stretch.

You introduce things that you find on websites. You invited me to go debate a website in a previous message, saying that "It's a Christian website." As if that matters! Similarly, the Arabs have a faithful coterie of anti-Israel, borderline anti-Semitic Jews whom they quote as saying the Jews should give up Israel. Do we assume these are Jews who represent any significant majority, or significant point of view? Of course not.

I did not use a website to illuminate the main theme of Christianity, namely salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ being the only way to living with Jesus in his mansions in the sky. Websites are as good as the source from which the viewpoint is biased, including the Jewish websites. My point was that Christianity is for self (salvation) while Judaism is by example a way of life on earth for men toward their fellowman and to hold G-d in awe and reverence. As former Jew, you should know that personal salvation is not guaranteed and there is no exclusivity by faith in any one god.

You said that there is no Heaven where we go to live with G-d or Jesus. But if we exist in that timeless place, and G-d is there, then aren't we there with our Creator?

That is my belief, To one extent or another.

I mentioned William Joyce to shock you into reasonableness. If you were William Joyce I would merely dismiss you. However, you are, in this quote directly above, placing yourself in the category of "live and let live" or "believe and let believe," which does NOT reflect the tone of most of your posts on this message board toward Christians or Jesus. Your tone is frequently combative. You present your points with a measure of venom. Hey, we all enjoy a good argument, but you're taken with your own animated icon of David defeating Goliath, taking on all the Christians. Not that this in and of itself makes a difference, but American Christian Zionists are very supportive of Israel. I appreciate them, because I am one. You can give your reasons for not believing in Christ, and give people a chance to answer, but you don't do that. You slam Jesus and hammer away with unsubstantiated claims that nothing in the Gospels is true, it was all written after the fact, etc. The truth is, the claims that the Gospels weren't written until hundreds of years after Christ is under serious debate- there is very good evidence that the bulk of the Gospels were written down before the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d.

The problem is that many of those who believe in the salvation of Jesus are very combative when it comes to Judaism. Sometimes known as replacement theology where the Jewish covenant with their G-d is replaced by the gentile world. This is not emiting the love of Christ towards his own people. There are people who perceive venom being directed to them when in fact it is nothing more than a refutation of something that is not according to the words of the gospel. You again make the statement that ‘there is good evidence’ of when the Gospels were written, either in whole or a bulk, but there is nothing to substantiate such a claim. Such as there is no substantiation of the Old Testament (Torah) being written on Mt. Sinai. Everything on both sides must be taken as pure faith as there is no ‘smoking gun.’

Now, hold on. It is during the Diaspora that Judaism as we know it today was developed. Are you saying that the writings of Moses Maimonides, or the Talmud, represent a turning away from the commandments? The Jews pretty much held faithful to G-d, although truthfully it was rabbinical tradition they were being faithful to. I'm sure you already know we disagree here- you said this in an above quote:

You make several matter-of-fact statements in this paragraph. The Talmud and the Writings are not a part of the Jewish Torah (five books of Moses). The writings of the sages and Talmudists over the centuries are not considered to be the Bible but the Mishnah Torah (Oral Law) is the basis of the written Torah from Mt. Sinai and both are believed to be derived from G-d Himself.

The ‘turning away’ from the commandments of G-d are not represented in any men’s writings but in the non-observance of G-d’s edicts or doing what was forbidden in them. The Talmudists over the centuries interpreted the Mishnah Torah (oral Law) to conform to the changes in time with technologies and mores of the centuries but had nothing to do with following the words of the Talmudic men. That is what makes Judaism evolve and live instead of a religion staying in the 1st century and 2nd century Gospel parables.

You say that G-d's "crying" is a metaphor for not interfering in the acts of the Nazis and Arabs. I will go you one better. G-d did cry, and He cried because the Jews rejected His Son, and by rejecting the ONE TRUE PATH to G-d for men (Jesus said "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one gets to the Father except through Me.") their prayers went unanswered, because G-d explicitly made Jesus the Intercessor.

That is your right to believe what you want. But your beliefs are not found in the Torah or Old Testament unless you twist G-d’s original words you find a foreign god in which to believe. Allusions to messianic men-gods or from messiahs from the stalk of Jesse does not a god make. Remember that I can read the original Hebrew version of the Torah and do not have to rely on the King James version of the Old Testament to find G-d making more man gods to save mankind. That new premise is not Judaism nor from the Torah. And that is my right to believe in the original instead of a revision.

If the Jews converted to Christ tomorrow, all their troubles with the Arabs would disappear in a nanosecond. We won't realize this until the Second Coming of Christ, when the Jews WILL realizes they were wrong about Jesus all along. Look, I know you don't agree with me, but if you really have the respect for my beliefs which you say you do, do me this ONE favor. Read Romans 11, all the way through, and uncritically. This is Paul's tract on the disbelief of the Jews. Come on, it's just one chapter.

I don’t think so. When the Muslims declare that all infidels, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Hutus, Zioastrians etc are to die or convert to Islam, the fact that Jews believing in a foreign god would not change their Qur’an one iota. The Islamic world would just go after the great Satan being that their would be no more little Satans (the Jews) to destroy. Come on, I have read the entire works of the self appointed apostle St. Paul/Saul of Tarsus. Let me see, do I take G-d’s words as given to mankind on Mt. Sinai or a Tarsian who admits being a pretender to convert the unwary? That is a hard choice. Does Romans 11 become true or believable because of a Christian persecutor who had a vision on the road to Damascus?

What is wrong with you believing in your man-god free gift of salvation or me and the rest of Judaism believing in the Creator of the universe with no free ticket to anything? That is the beauty of faith.

"This resulted in no 'light unto the nations' as His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There are Jews all over the earth. Just because a majority of the Jewish people who lived in Israel turned from G-d and were taken off into the Diaspora does not mean that they will return in a flash of light. We who live outside of Israel, love our American homeland but also know that eventually we all will return to Israel from every corner of the earth. That is a prophecy in the Torah (Old Testament for those who forgot this word.) Does it matter where a Jew lives? If an American Jew does not turn away from G-d but loves and lives in awe of Him, does justice, has mercy and provides for his fellowman's needs; that person (Jew or gentile) is following the road of goodness for all to emulate."

I defer comment until later.

Jesus actually told His disciples to go to His lost sheep of the house of Israel.
I don't disagree with the rest of this, except for this "good deeds so despised by St. Paul" bit. You still don't get the concept. St. Paul did NOT tell Christians not to be good or do good works. He said that one does not enter Heaven by "works," that G-d is not pleased by our actions but by our Faith. If we have the faith, we will do the good works, but doing good works without faith is empty gestures. If you would read Paul without the chip on your shoulder, you would see he was really a lot wiser and more good than you think, albeit he wasn't the Messiah, and actually he never claims anything for himself.

So St. Paul tells Christians that good works will not get them into heaven and the law is dead so by faith in Jesus do Christians are saved. Let’s see what St. Paul actually says in the KJV.

Paul said in Romans 7

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul’s statement in this Roman verse is interesting. In this one sentence, he denies G-d’s gift to mankind. I hope this verse quote is not too venomous.

"No one left standing will think that it was man who fulfilled this prophecy but G-d Himself and no other gods. But that is just my opinion and that of the eon old Prophets of Israel."

No argument.

I’ll bet you thought I was going to say that no messenger or man-son-god was going to fullfil prophecy. You would have been right.

"You unlike St. Paul did not use PRETENSE (Philippians 1:18) to go forth and convert the unsaved Jews in their own land. Many in my immediate family have begun making Alliyah now as are many from around the world are beginning to do. I travel to Israel every year, not to make Alliyah yet but to see for myself the state of the people who live there and forsake G-d. Alliyah will be the eventual result of all the Jewish people around the world as stated in the Torah and Prophets of Israel. G-d Himself has said as much in the Torah.

I do not wish to be a part of the current immorality of a desecration of G-d in Israel at this time. Much good can be done from my place right here where I have been placed by birth. "

I appreciate your comment that I did not use pretense. However, proper context again proves you wrong. Philippians 1:12-18 says this:

Some indeed preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."

Does Paul here say that he preaches Christ in pretense? ABSOLUTELY NOT! He says that his situation, being in prison, has brought men to be bold and preach Christ, and even though some preach out of selfish ambition, he still rejoices because Christ is preached. This is not what you say it is, which is a call by Paul to preach by pretense. You do NOT take the context into account when you say things, and this is an unfortunately common thing in American discourse. It's like when Republicans attack Democrats, or vice versa. Neither side will give the other any credit. If there's a possible negative spin, they will present it, without a thought or a care for what was actually said or meant. But if you and I are talking about G-d, then our standards MUST be higher, or we are playing politics with G-d, and I'll tell you that's one thing I don't want to be accused of on Judgment Day- treating G-d like a politician. LOL

Let me see how to respond to your question without being blunt. The difference in what a person says or doesn’t say counts. Would you agree? It truly does not say that Paul teaches Christ in PRETENCE from the words in Philippians 1. But he does say that in defending the Gospels, whether Christ is taught out of good intentions, evil or treacherous reasons or people, he (Paul) rejoices that many are brought to Christ. For a Jewish person this is a difficult concept to grasp. The Old Testament does not tell Abraham or anyone else that to convert or obtain people to come to G-d, it must be out of pure motivation for any that come to Judaism by evil or false motivation, that becomes a sin unto G-d Himself. To the Jew, Paul’s rejoicing in this sin is an abomination to G-d.

And you, too, will eventually learn the truth, from G-d. We all will, and we will all realize we fell into error somewhere. I don't ask you to take my word for anything, aj, but I merely ask that you stop treating Jesus with so much disrespect, and give His message a chance to speak to you.

From my point of view it is not I that treat Christ with disrespect but those who spoke in his name and put words in his mouth certainly are guilty of disrespecting this Jewish man. For those people who did this to a Jewish man and blamed his own people for being responsible for his death, is being disrespectful and hurtful to Christ and Christ’s own people.

There are atheists who read the Torah and find only points to argue. You and I both know that the Torah is true. There we agree. I started life as a Jew. I read the Gospels and became a Christian. I then heard the claim by Moslems that Islam is the true seal of G-d and the prophets, and so I read the Qur'an, thinking maybe I was missing something. I did not get seduced by the Qur'an. The reason is that the Qur'an specifically states 1) that Jesus was not the Son of G-d (or at least not the son of Allah, which I know He isn't); 2) that Jesus was not crucified (which denies the whole point of the Gospels, if you don't mind my saying); and 3) that Mohammed, also known as Ahmed, was the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) spoken of by Jesus, which is patently false because it arises from an error in Greek translation. These 3 Christian points are the reason I have to reject the Qur'an. Of course there are plenty of others, like the claim that Abraham set out to sacrifice Ishmael, instead of Isaac. This isn't an easy point to make, but don't you think that if something as evil as Islam came into being to deny that Jesus was the Son of G-d, that maybe there's actually something to Jesus? I don't say that like it's conclusive, but it's gotta make you think. No?

Walwor just as you have read the Qur’an, I have read the New Testament from cover to cover. As you I did not become seduced by the NT as it indisputably and directly contradicts the Hebrew text of the Torah. I find no need from the Torah verses to save you from anything and I would appreciate the same respect from you. I cannot desert my G-d and do believe in Him with all my heart, my soul and my might.

So for right now, lets just leave it at that…. OK?