The liberal mythology of healthcare being a right

[Remodeling Maidiac]

I can survive without being forced to buy insurance. I can not survive without food or water. Yet they aren't forced upon me. In fact if you're poor you have to jump through hoops to get assistance with actual LIFE SUSTAINING AID. No hoops required to lead us down the road to destruction.

 

[francoHFW]

If you don't have insurance and have an accident, condition, or illness, and get care, you're a freeloader. Courts and laws have ruled you have a right to care if your life is in danger. We're ALREADY paying for these "freeloaders", and in the most expensive possible way. ACA will guarantee care, add doctors and preventive care, transparency and competition, and low cost clinics to control costs for the first time. You are sorely misled. You also need a check up, dickhead...LOL!

 

[JohnA]

As to healthcare being a right, most Americans would say we have a right to the opportunity to affordably obtain the basics of life such as water, food and shelter and yet some such as you say we have no right to be able to afford healthcare. Is this the case? We have no right to be treated for no other reason than we cannot afford it? That we are to allow treatment and medicine to become an ever increasing luxury in the richest country in world? This is the coldest form of social Darwinism and it does not suit us.

???

Not quite sure what you're getting at here.

But I'll ask this, if health care is a right, would you also say that food, clothing, shelter - or any other necessity of life is also a right?

I am saying that the opportunity to affordably obtain the necessities of life on an everyday income is a right.

\

then you get into what are the *necessaties *of life and how much should you pay for them ''
O wait a minute you dont want to pay for them you have a *right * TO MAKE ME PAY FOR THEM now i get it

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Even if it bankrupts them and forces them into the streets? This is your vision of America?

It is.

It’s an aspect of conservative utopian dogma: the fear of the ‘disincentive.’

Their moronic ‘theory’ is that if one knows he’ll have health insurance, than no one will work and we’ll become a Nation of lazy, unemployed people – or some such idiocy.

 

[Steelplate]

I can survive without being forced to buy insurance. I can not survive without food or water. Yet they aren't forced upon me. In fact if you're poor you have to jump through hoops to get assistance with actual LIFE SUSTAINING AID. No hoops required to lead us down the road to destruction.

Ah...one of the fearful faithful. You do realize that highly productive countries don't have much of a problem with a National Health Care program, right? The ones that are struggling are the ones that don't have much to offer economically. The fear of us "turning into Greece" is a fallacy.

In fact, it will help our business community compete globally...especially small businesses that will no longer have to spend huge chunks of their money on supplying their employees with Health Insurance, and it will help those employed by companies who cannot afford to offer Health Insurance to them... thereby putting more money in the employees' pockets.

It(the Public Option) would have been paid for by simply letting the Bush Tax Cuts expire.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

You've all been claiming that healthcare is a right so exactly how does this law aid me in EXERCISING my rights? It doesn't, it FORCES me to take a path I may not want to take.

Actually not.

You have three options:

One: Buy health insurance, which you already have anyway.

Two: Pay a penalty:

The penalty will be paid as a federal tax liability on income tax returns and is enforced by the Treasury.

The advantage to paying the penalty is you can still buy insurance at some future date should you need it, even with a pre-existing condition.

Or, three, you can buy no insurance and pay no penalty:

Individuals that fail to pay the penalty will not be subject to criminal penalties, liens or levies.

Given these facts, therefore, one can clearly see no one is being ‘forced’ to buy insurance. The worst-case scenario is you lose part or all of an income tax return.

The IM is in essence a bluff, the government is betting enough consumers won’t call the bluff and buy insurance, the tiny percentage who actually decide to go without won’t have an adverse effect on the insurance pool.

And the primary focus of the ACA is to get low income individuals into an insurance program, in some cases a state’s Medicaid, for example.

As a legal aside, because the ACA authorizes no criminal or civil penalties, it doesn’t meet the Lopez/Morrison standard, and is consequently Constitutional.

So enjoy not having medical insurance to your heart’s content.

Source for the cited above:

https://www.bcbsri.com/BCBSRIWeb/pdf/Individual_Mandate_Fact_Sheet.pdf

The invididual mandate makes a criminal out of anyone who refuses to hand over their paycheck to Aetna.

Incorrect. See: “Individuals that fail to pay the penalty will not be subject to criminal penalties, liens or levies.”

So you don't consider the govt not returning what is rightfully mine, my overpaid taxes, a penalty?

Odd world you reside in. Glad I don't live there.

 

[Wiseacre]

You do not want to bring up waivers, it is the most easily debunked myth of the Healthcare law, I will give you an opportunity to look up exactly what the waivers were before I make you look foolish.

As to healthcare being a right, most Americans would say we have a right to the opportunity to affordably obtain the basics of life such as water, food and shelter and yet some such as you say we have no right to be able to afford healthcare. Is this the case? We have no right to be treated for no other reason than we cannot afford it? That we are to allow treatment and medicine to become an ever increasing luxury in the richest country in world? This is the coldest form of social Darwinism and it does not suit us.

I'd say you're right that most Americans think we have a right to the opportunity, but not necessarily the right to obtain it. I think we each have the right to what we earn but not we we want or even what we need. You may need food, water, shelter, and healthcare, but the rest of us are not obligated to provide it for you. We may elect to help you, we may decide to give you any of these things, but you don't have a right to expect any of it.

This is exactly why I usually avoid discussions on this subject, conservatives always act as if they are in the privileged class and the rabble are begging at their door. Quit acting like the aristocracy, ANYONE can conceivably find themselves buried under a mountain of medical debt, even such highborn lords and ladies such as yourselves and if by some chance you are so wealthy that you could pay for a bypass or chemo out of pocket then you have no concept of the spot the rabble find themselves in. This costs even people with insurance vast sums, those without just die.

Aristocracy? Rabble? Not given much to hyperbole, are ya? I'm not rich you know. I'm okay myself, with military Tricare and then Medicare, I can afford whatever. But I got family members who are unemployed, they're out there on that limb like a lot of other people when it comes to HC. We do provide emergency services, right? There are clinics that'll help, and family, and churches, and other organizations out there, the gov't doesn't have to provide everything you know. Be nice if we could, but we can't. And even if we could, it's still not a basic human right to have all your needs taken care of for you.

 

[The T]

I can survive without being forced to buy insurance. I can not survive without food or water. Yet they aren't forced upon me. In fact if you're poor you have to jump through hoops to get assistance with actual LIFE SUSTAINING AID. No hoops required to lead us down the road to destruction.

Since when were we ever forced to jump through hoops to exercise our own decisions...our own liberty?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

I can survive without being forced to buy insurance. I can not survive without food or water. Yet they aren't forced upon me. In fact if you're poor you have to jump through hoops to get assistance with actual LIFE SUSTAINING AID. No hoops required to lead us down the road to destruction.

Since when were we ever forced to jump through hoops to exercise our own decisions...our own liberty?

Since Obama was elected. Didn't you get the memo?

 

[The T]

I can survive without being forced to buy insurance. I can not survive without food or water. Yet they aren't forced upon me. In fact if you're poor you have to jump through hoops to get assistance with actual LIFE SUSTAINING AID. No hoops required to lead us down the road to destruction.

Since when were we ever forced to jump through hoops to exercise our own decisions...our own liberty?

Since Obama was elected. Didn't you get the memo?

Bck farther than that my friend...try the Wilsonian Progressive movement that garnered the 16th, 17th Amendments and the Federal Reserve...

Obama is trying to tie the ribbons on the package.

 

[DiamondDave]

You do not want to bring up waivers, it is the most easily debunked myth of the Healthcare law, I will give you an opportunity to look up exactly what the waivers were before I make you look foolish.

As to healthcare being a right, most Americans would say we have a right to the opportunity to affordably obtain the basics of life such as water, food and shelter and yet some such as you say we have no right to be able to afford healthcare. Is this the case? We have no right to be treated for no other reason than we cannot afford it? That we are to allow treatment and medicine to become an ever increasing luxury in the richest country in world? This is the coldest form of social Darwinism and it does not suit us.

A need or even a want is not a right...

You may NEED food... you do not have the right to it at the expense of anyone else/.... though many are generous enough to provide thru donation, volunteerism, etc...

Nobody should be turned away from life saving medical care... but that does not mean that they are not to be billed for it, or billed for all other medical care services...

Social Darwinism.

Yeah.. damn that personal responsibility and other things that come with freedom.. let's get rid of all those things that come with freedom and hand it all over to big mommy government... they'll take care of EVERYTHING and make sure all is right with the world.. we'll all be singing kumbaya and watching unicorns frolic by the pool of never ending ambrosia water

 

[DiamondDave]

You do not want to bring up waivers, it is the most easily debunked myth of the Healthcare law, I will give you an opportunity to look up exactly what the waivers were before I make you look foolish.

As to healthcare being a right, most Americans would say we have a right to the opportunity to affordably obtain the basics of life such as water, food and shelter and yet some such as you say we have no right to be able to afford healthcare. Is this the case? We have no right to be treated for no other reason than we cannot afford it? That we are to allow treatment and medicine to become an ever increasing luxury in the richest country in world? This is the coldest form of social Darwinism and it does not suit us.

A need or even a want is not a right...

You may NEED food... you do not have the right to it at the expense of anyone else/.... though many are generous enough to provide thru donation, volunteerism, etc...

Nobody should be turned away from life saving medical care... but that does not mean that they are not to be billed for it, or billed for all other medical care services...

Even if it bankrupts them and forces them into the streets? This is your vision of America?

Go to some banana Republic and view the end result of your vision. But, I guess it's OK because you feel very secure in your status...Fuck everyone else. The Conservative Mantra.

Yes... for we live with what happens in our lives... it ain't all fair... it ain't all sunshine and rainbows

You are not simply owed something because you want or 'need' it... you're still the one responsible for you and yours

If you have more and have a calling to this charity or that charity... great.. join the others of us who happily support great charities.... I think it is one of the greatest things to do... but charity is not forced or owed, and that is what you and your kind demand

 

[dblack]

You've all been claiming that healthcare is a right so exactly how does this law aid me in EXERCISING my rights? It doesn't, it FORCES me to take a path I may not want to take.

Actually not.

You have three options:

One: Buy health insurance, which you already have anyway.

Two: Pay a penalty:

The penalty will be paid as a federal tax liability on income tax returns and is enforced by the Treasury.

The advantage to paying the penalty is you can still buy insurance at some future date should you need it, even with a pre-existing condition.

Or, three, you can buy no insurance and pay no penalty:

Individuals that fail to pay the penalty will not be subject to criminal penalties, liens or levies.

Given these facts, therefore, one can clearly see no one is being ‘forced’ to buy insurance. The worst-case scenario is you lose part or all of an income tax return.

No.. worst case scenario is that you send in your check for taxes owed. The IRS first grabs the fine for not paying of the insurance companies, and then sends you a bill for the amount your taxes are short. If you don't pay that, you go to jail.

This is the same shit they used to sell mandatory auto liability insurance. "It's just a fine, and a low one at that." was the line. A few years later, they decided the law needed teeth. Fines went up, criminal penalties followed, and now there are plenty of people sitting in jail for refusing the corporate mandate.

Again, if our leaders decide to sell us, like cattle, to the insurance industry, you can bet some of us won't sit still for it. I'll be doing everything I can manage to fuck up that kind of scam.

 

[Steelplate]

A need or even a want is not a right...

You may NEED food... you do not have the right to it at the expense of anyone else/.... though many are generous enough to provide thru donation, volunteerism, etc...

Nobody should be turned away from life saving medical care... but that does not mean that they are not to be billed for it, or billed for all other medical care services...

Even if it bankrupts them and forces them into the streets? This is your vision of America?

Go to some banana Republic and view the end result of your vision. But, I guess it's OK because you feel very secure in your status...Fuck everyone else. The Conservative Mantra.

Yes... for we live with what happens in our lives... it ain't all fair... it ain't all sunshine and rainbows

You are not simply owed something because you want or 'need' it... you're still the one responsible for you and yours

If you have more and have a calling to this charity or that charity... great.. join the others of us who happily support great charities.... I think it is one of the greatest things to do... but charity is not forced or owed, and that is what you and your kind demand

 

[The T]

A need or even a want is not a right...

You may NEED food... you do not have the right to it at the expense of anyone else/.... though many are generous enough to provide thru donation, volunteerism, etc...

Nobody should be turned away from life saving medical care... but that does not mean that they are not to be billed for it, or billed for all other medical care services...

Even if it bankrupts them and forces them into the streets? This is your vision of America?

Go to some banana Republic and view the end result of your vision. But, I guess it's OK because you feel very secure in your status...Fuck everyone else. The Conservative Mantra.

Yes... for we live with what happens in our lives... it ain't all fair... it ain't all sunshine and rainbows

You are not simply owed something because you want or 'need' it... you're still the one responsible for you and yours

If you have more and have a calling to this charity or that charity... great.. join the others of us who happily support great charities.... I think it is one of the greatest things to do... but charity is not forced or owed, and that is what you and your kind demand

Indeed...and that should come from the heart, and your wallet by your choice and not the Gubmint speaking FOR YOU by force of taxation and redistribution...

 

[DiamondDave]

Even if it bankrupts them and forces them into the streets? This is your vision of America?

Go to some banana Republic and view the end result of your vision. But, I guess it's OK because you feel very secure in your status...Fuck everyone else. The Conservative Mantra.

Yes... for we live with what happens in our lives... it ain't all fair... it ain't all sunshine and rainbows

You are not simply owed something because you want or 'need' it... you're still the one responsible for you and yours

If you have more and have a calling to this charity or that charity... great.. join the others of us who happily support great charities.... I think it is one of the greatest things to do... but charity is not forced or owed, and that is what you and your kind demand

Yes... you and those like you who expect something at the expense of others are nutbags... glad you're finally coming clean

 

[dblack]

You've all been claiming that healthcare is a right so exactly how does this law aid me in EXERCISING my rights? It doesn't, it FORCES me to take a path I may not want to take.

Actually not.

You have three options:

One: Buy health insurance, which you already have anyway.

Two: Pay a penalty:



The advantage to paying the penalty is you can still buy insurance at some future date should you need it, even with a pre-existing condition.

Or, three, you can buy no insurance and pay no penalty:



Given these facts, therefore, one can clearly see no one is being ‘forced’ to buy insurance. The worst-case scenario is you lose part or all of an income tax return.

The IM is in essence a bluff, the government is betting enough consumers won’t call the bluff and buy insurance, the tiny percentage who actually decide to go without won’t have an adverse effect on the insurance pool.

And the primary focus of the ACA is to get low income individuals into an insurance program, in some cases a state’s Medicaid, for example.

As a legal aside, because the ACA authorizes no criminal or civil penalties, it doesn’t meet the Lopez/Morrison standard, and is consequently Constitutional.

So enjoy not having medical insurance to your heart’s content.

Source for the cited above:

https://www.bcbsri.com/BCBSRIWeb/pdf/Individual_Mandate_Fact_Sheet.pdf

The invididual mandate makes a criminal out of anyone who refuses to hand over their paycheck to Aetna.

Incorrect. See: “Individuals that fail to pay the penalty will not be subject to criminal penalties, liens or levies.”

So you don't consider the govt not returning what is rightfully mine, my overpaid taxes, a penalty?

Odd world you reside in. Glad I don't live there.

A lot of us don't get refunds anyway, so when we don't pay, you can bet they'll come looking for it.

 

[The T]

Actually not.

You have three options:

One: Buy health insurance, which you already have anyway.

Two: Pay a penalty:



The advantage to paying the penalty is you can still buy insurance at some future date should you need it, even with a pre-existing condition.

Or, three, you can buy no insurance and pay no penalty:



Given these facts, therefore, one can clearly see no one is being ‘forced’ to buy insurance. The worst-case scenario is you lose part or all of an income tax return.

The IM is in essence a bluff, the government is betting enough consumers won’t call the bluff and buy insurance, the tiny percentage who actually decide to go without won’t have an adverse effect on the insurance pool.

And the primary focus of the ACA is to get low income individuals into an insurance program, in some cases a state’s Medicaid, for example.

As a legal aside, because the ACA authorizes no criminal or civil penalties, it doesn’t meet the Lopez/Morrison standard, and is consequently Constitutional.

So enjoy not having medical insurance to your heart’s content.

Source for the cited above:

https://www.bcbsri.com/BCBSRIWeb/pdf/Individual_Mandate_Fact_Sheet.pdf



Incorrect. See: “Individuals that fail to pay the penalty will not be subject to criminal penalties, liens or levies.”

So you don't consider the govt not returning what is rightfully mine, my overpaid taxes, a penalty?

Odd world you reside in. Glad I don't live there.

A lot of us don't get refunds anyway, so when we don't pay, you can bet they'll come looking for it.

There are alot of Congresscritters and members of Obama's Czar staff/Cabinet they failed to find...WHY is that?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Actually not.

You have three options:

One: Buy health insurance, which you already have anyway.

Two: Pay a penalty:



The advantage to paying the penalty is you can still buy insurance at some future date should you need it, even with a pre-existing condition.

Or, three, you can buy no insurance and pay no penalty:



Given these facts, therefore, one can clearly see no one is being ‘forced’ to buy insurance. The worst-case scenario is you lose part or all of an income tax return.

The IM is in essence a bluff, the government is betting enough consumers won’t call the bluff and buy insurance, the tiny percentage who actually decide to go without won’t have an adverse effect on the insurance pool.

And the primary focus of the ACA is to get low income individuals into an insurance program, in some cases a state’s Medicaid, for example.

As a legal aside, because the ACA authorizes no criminal or civil penalties, it doesn’t meet the Lopez/Morrison standard, and is consequently Constitutional.

So enjoy not having medical insurance to your heart’s content.

Source for the cited above:

https://www.bcbsri.com/BCBSRIWeb/pdf/Individual_Mandate_Fact_Sheet.pdf



Incorrect. See: “Individuals that fail to pay the penalty will not be subject to criminal penalties, liens or levies.”

So you don't consider the govt not returning what is rightfully mine, my overpaid taxes, a penalty?

Odd world you reside in. Glad I don't live there.

A lot of us don't get refunds anyway, so when we don't pay, you can bet they'll come looking for it.

I hear ya. I haven't had a return in years. But he got my point none the less. The poor will pay the most. As they always do with liberal policies. Yet, they are so busy at the teet they don't even notice.

 

[Steelplate]

Yes... for we live with what happens in our lives... it ain't all fair... it ain't all sunshine and rainbows

You are not simply owed something because you want or 'need' it... you're still the one responsible for you and yours

If you have more and have a calling to this charity or that charity... great.. join the others of us who happily support great charities.... I think it is one of the greatest things to do... but charity is not forced or owed, and that is what you and your kind demand

Yes... you and those like you who expect something at the expense of others are nutbags... glad you're finally coming clean

No... that was you in the picture. BTW...who expects something at the expense of others? Did you forget that I'm a taxpayer too? No, it's just that you're selfish and don't give a shit about anyone other than your own little world that you've manufactured for yourself.