The John Kennedy assassination ..who's who on the Grassy Knoll

[Bfgrn]

The "Three tramps" are a source for many theories. However, "the Dallas Police Department revealed that the three tramps were Gus Abrams, John F. Gedney and Harold Doyle. Ray and Mary LaFontaine carried out their own research into this claim. They traced Doyle and Gedley who confirmed they were two of the tramps in the photograph. Gus Abrams was dead but his sister identified him as the third tramp in the photograph.

The FBI and private researchers sought the other two tramps. Gedney was located in Melbourne, Florida, serving as a municipal officer, a respected member of the community who had not spoken about former life as a vagabond until interviewed by researcher Billy Cox, and by the FBI. Both Doyle and Gedney told the same story of spending the night before the assassination at a rescue mission. According to Oliver Revell of the Dallas FBI office:

Both commented that they had gotten fresh clothes, showered, shaved and had a meal. They headed back to the railroad yard when they heard all the commotion and sirens and everything, and they asked what happened. They were told the president had been shot.

Abrams, the oldest of the tramps, was deceased. But researcher Kenneth Formet interviewed his sister, with whom he had lived the last 15 years of his life. She remembered his vagabond days, saying "he was always on the go hopping trains and drinking wine." When shown a picture of the Dealey Plaza tramps she responded "Yep, that's my Bill!"

Charles Harrelson : Biography

[MENTION=40539]skye[/MENTION]

Nice story, but it doesn't explain why the 3 tramps were arrested and escorted by Dallas police to the Sheriff's dept, and there is absolutely no record anywhere that these men were booked that day. There are no "blotter" records at all. The men have simply vanished.

A story it is....there is more. There is always more.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hobo1small.gif

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hobo2small.gif

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hobo3small.gif

Herein lies your problem(s).

1) Those 'arrest report' say "Police Department, City of Dallas'. The 3 hobos were marched into the Dallas County Sheriff's office.

Photographic evidence, including the famous "tramp" photographs, show that ten men were "arrested" at Dealey Plaza. No record of these arrests exists and there is none in the Warren report.

In the case of the "tramps," those three men who were rounded up on orders of Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer (the man in charge of security activity at Dealey Plaza), we find a sequence of astounding actions. A Sergeant D.V. Harkness was ordered to stop a freight train and remove the men. Harkness arrested the three men and turned them over to policemen Marvin Wise and Billy Bass, who marched them all the way from the west side of the Book building, around the north side of the Plaza, and into the vehicle entrance of the Sheriff's office. Few people realize this entire procedure took place almost on the steps of the Sheriff's office. While Wise and Bass were marching these men to the Sheriff's office, William Allen, George Smith, and Jack Beers of the Dallas Times Herald, the Fort Worth Star Telegram, and the Dallas Morning News, took several pictures of them. Their remarkable pictures show clearly that Wise and Bass took them to the Sheriff's office. Yet Harkness and Sheriff Harold Elkins couldn't remember that there were any other policemen with Harkness. This is utterly ridiculous in the face of so many clear pictures. Why was this done? And why weren't these amazing pictures shown to the Commission so that it could order the men before them. And worse still, there is absolutely no record anywhere that these men were booked that day. There are no "blotter" records at all. The men have simply vanished.

I have been given a list of the names of these men. Also, the pictures show three policemen. Did the Sheriff, or someone in that office, spirit them away? And why did the Sheriff, who had all of these men in his custody, permit them to get away within minutes of the time that the President of the United States had been shot and killed on his doorstep? These are tough questions, but let's go a bit further. Why didn't the all-powerful Warren Commission—which included the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, the former Director of Central Intelligence, the man who is now our President, etc.—why didn't they have an opportunity to see these pictures? The photos would have led them to ask these questions and then to demand answers.

It is this type of grossly irrational action that leads any concerned and level-headed person to conclude that a massive conspiracy had taken over and was strong enough during 1964 to control the Warren Commission. No one can buy the idea that the Warren Commission was that incurious, that inexperienced, and that stupid. Having gone this far, it is not a long step to realize that this same cabal has been able to control these things for the past eleven years. This is the greater crime.

"The Guns of Dallas", by L. Fletcher Prouty

2) SOME COMMENTS ON JOHN MCADAMS’ KENNEDY ASSASSINATION HOME PAGE

From time to time visitors to my JFK web page ask me about John McAdams’ Kennedy Assassination Home Page. In this article I will respond to some of the claims that are presented on McAdams’ site. It is my contention that most of McAdams’ claims are wrong and that in some cases McAdams presents information that is badly outdated.

John McAdams is a university professor who believes strongly that Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone, shot President Kennedy. McAdams doesn’t believe a conspiracy of any kind was involved. McAdams believes the Warren Commission (WC) was correct in all its essential conclusions.

In McAdams’ opinion, anyone who defends the conspiracy position is a “conspiracy buff.” McAdams frequently refers to those who reject the lone-gunman theory as “buffs.” McAdams even applies this label to experts who speak about aspects of the assassination that involve their field of expertise. For example, when McAdams learned that a professor of neuroscience at a Canadian university rejected the lone-gunman view that Kennedy’s backward head snap was the result of a neuromuscular reaction, he opined that the professor was either a “buff” or had been spoon fed erroneous information by a critic of the lone-gunman theory.

McAdams’ attitude toward virtually anyone who disagrees with him about the assassination is somewhat surprising, given the fact that for the last three decades surveys have consistently shown that anywhere from 65-90 percent of the American people believe Kennedy was killed as a result of a conspiracy (with about 5 percent undecided).

McAdams acknowledges that most Americans believe there was a conspiracy, but he suggests this is because most people have been misled by disinformation put out by conspiracy theorists:

If you are like most Americans, you believe that a conspiracy killed Kennedy. And if you are like most Americans, you have heard a vast number of bogus factoids about the case.

This web site is dedicated to debunking the mass of misinformation and disinformation surrounding the murder of JFK. If you are believer in Oswald as a lone gunman, you are likely to enjoy this web site, since most of that misinformation and disinformation has come from conspiracists. But if you are a sophisticated conspiracist, you likely understand that the mass of silly nonsense in conspiracy books and documentaries does no service to the cause of truth in the assassination, and simply buries the “case for conspiracy” under layers of bunk.

It might be worthwhile at this point to mention some of the experts and public figures who have said they believe a conspiracy killed President Kennedy or who have said they reject the single-bullet theory, which is the foundation of the lone-gunman theory:

* Dr. Joseph Dolce, an Army wound ballistics expert who played a leading role in the WC’s wound ballistics tests.

* G. Robert Blakey, a professor of law at Notre Dame University and the former chief counsel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA).

* The late Senator Richard Schweiker.

* Senator Christopher Dodd, who served on the HSCA when he was a member of the House of Representatives.

* The late Senator Richard Russell, who served on the WC.

* Dr. Roger McCarthy, a ballistics expert with Failure Analysis, which assisted with the American Bar Association’s mock Oswald trials in the 1990s.

* Robert MacNeil, formerly of the McNeil-Lehrer News Hour on PBS.

* Ambassador William Atwood, former Special Assistant to the U.S. delegation to the United Nations.

* Vice President Al Gore.

* President Lyndon Johnson. (We now know from the Johnson White House tapes that Johnson rejected the single-bullet theory. We also know from former Johnson aides and associates that privately Johnson said he believed Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy.)

* The late Dr. Milton Helpern, a renowned forensic pathologist and formerly the medical examiner for New York City.

* The late Dr. John Nichols, a forensic pathologist and formerly a professor of pathology at the University of Kansas.

* The late Carlos Hathcock, a Marine sniper who was widely regarded as the greatest sniper of the 20th century.

* The late Evelyn Lincoln, who was Kennedy’s White House secretary.

* The late Dr. George Burkley, Kennedy’s personal physician.

Literally, this list could continue for several pages. We also know that many members of the Kennedy family, along with Jackie Kennedy’s own mother, came to believe JFK was killed by a conspiracy. I quote from Chris Anderson’s discussion on this point in his book JACKIE AFTER JACK:

Even those not privy to the facts found it hard to believe that Oswald acted alone. Jackie’s own mother believed it was no coincidence that the assassination took place in Dallas. “Mother always felt Johnson was behind Jack’s assassination,” Jamie Auchinloss said. “She never stopped believing it.”

By the late 1970s, Ted Kennedy would privately lean toward the conspiracy view, as would Bobby’s oldest son, Joe, and several other Kennedy cousins. (JACKIE AFTER JACK, New York: William Morrow and Company, 1998, p. 80)

 

[Connery]

This statement qualifies what you have provided, "It is this type of grossly irrational action that leads any concerned and level-headed person to conclude that a massive conspiracy had taken over and was strong enough during 1964 to control the Warren Commission." By it's own merits it is speculative in nature and that is the weight I will give it.


I am not wedded to any one idea. In fact, what skye had provided is certainly more persuasive in this post http://www.usmessageboard.com/8517610-post2397.html

 

[Bfgrn]

This statement qualifies what you have provided, "It is this type of grossly irrational action that leads any concerned and level-headed person to conclude that a massive conspiracy had taken over and was strong enough during 1964 to control the Warren Commission." By it's own merits it is speculative in nature and that is the weight I will give it.


I am not wedded to any one idea. In fact, what skye had provided is certainly more persuasive in this post http://www.usmessageboard.com/8517610-post2397.html

I tend to believe someone who had inside knowledge...

Leroy Fletcher Prouty (January 24, 1917 – June 5, 2001) served as Chief of Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President John F. Kennedy. A former colonel in the United States Air Force, he retired from military service to become a bank executive, and subsequently became a critic of U.S. foreign policy, particularly the covert activities of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) about which he had considerable inside knowledge.

If you wish to subscribe to John McAdams' mythology, go for it Connery...then you may as well jump in with both feet and subscribe to Dale Myers' house of cartoons.

 

[Connery]

This statement qualifies what you have provided, "It is this type of grossly irrational action that leads any concerned and level-headed person to conclude that a massive conspiracy had taken over and was strong enough during 1964 to control the Warren Commission." By it's own merits it is speculative in nature and that is the weight I will give it.


I am not wedded to any one idea. In fact, what skye had provided is certainly more persuasive in this post http://www.usmessageboard.com/8517610-post2397.html

I tend to believe someone who had inside knowledge...

Leroy Fletcher Prouty (January 24, 1917 – June 5, 2001) served as Chief of Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President John F. Kennedy. A former colonel in the United States Air Force, he retired from military service to become a bank executive, and subsequently became a critic of U.S. foreign policy, particularly the covert activities of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) about which he had considerable inside knowledge.

If you wish to subscribe to John McAdams' mythology, go for it Connery...then you may as well jump in with both feet and subscribe to Dale Myers' house of cartoons.

I am opened minded to many thoughts and theories I questioned the one you put up. Further, to suggest Dale Myers in any serious discussion is to go far afield from trying to derive the truth of these matters.

 

[Bfgrn]

This statement qualifies what you have provided, "It is this type of grossly irrational action that leads any concerned and level-headed person to conclude that a massive conspiracy had taken over and was strong enough during 1964 to control the Warren Commission." By it's own merits it is speculative in nature and that is the weight I will give it.


I am not wedded to any one idea. In fact, what skye had provided is certainly more persuasive in this post http://www.usmessageboard.com/8517610-post2397.html

I tend to believe someone who had inside knowledge...

Leroy Fletcher Prouty (January 24, 1917 – June 5, 2001) served as Chief of Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President John F. Kennedy. A former colonel in the United States Air Force, he retired from military service to become a bank executive, and subsequently became a critic of U.S. foreign policy, particularly the covert activities of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) about which he had considerable inside knowledge.

If you wish to subscribe to John McAdams' mythology, go for it Connery...then you may as well jump in with both feet and subscribe to Dale Myers' house of cartoons.

I am opened minded to many thoughts and theories I questioned the one you put up. Further, to suggest Dale Myers in any serious discussion is to go far afield from trying to derive the truth of these matters.

If you question the one I put up, I suggest you explore the LBJ conversations with J Edgar Hoover. There was a definite government conspiracy to:

a) pin the whole blame on Oswald who would never stand trial.

b) Cover up the events that transpired in Mexico City a little more than a month before the assassination where an Oswald imposter showed up at the Soviet Embassy.

c) create a 'blue ribbon' panel to stop Bobby Kennedy, the Senate, and Texas from investigating the assassination.

d) Make sure that this 'blue ribbon' panel relied solely on the FBI for evidence and witnesses.

LBJ Phone Calls - November 1963
TRANSCRIPT (PDF: 162 K)

Less than 24 hours after the assassination of President Kennedy, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover reported to the new President Johnson on the state of the investigation. Noting that the evidence against [Oswald] is "not very very strong", Hoover reported on the tracing of the rifle to an alias of Oswald and other details implicating him in the shooting.

But when LBJ then asked "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico in September," an event of no little interest to the inner circles of government, Hoover replied "No, that's one angle that's very confusing for this reason. We have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet Embassy, using Oswald's name. The picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet Embassy down there." In other words, an imposter had implicated Oswald in a relationship with Soviet agents, less than two months before the assassination.

 

[Connery]

I tend to believe someone who had inside knowledge...

Leroy Fletcher Prouty (January 24, 1917 – June 5, 2001) served as Chief of Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President John F. Kennedy. A former colonel in the United States Air Force, he retired from military service to become a bank executive, and subsequently became a critic of U.S. foreign policy, particularly the covert activities of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) about which he had considerable inside knowledge.

If you wish to subscribe to John McAdams' mythology, go for it Connery...then you may as well jump in with both feet and subscribe to Dale Myers' house of cartoons.

I am opened minded to many thoughts and theories I questioned the one you put up. Further, to suggest Dale Myers in any serious discussion is to go far afield from trying to derive the truth of these matters.

If you question the one I put up, I suggest you explore the LBJ conversations with J Edgar Hoover. There was a definite government conspiracy to:

a) pin the whole blame on Oswald who would never stand trial.

b) Cover up the events that transpired in Mexico City a little more than a month before the assassination where an Oswald imposter showed up at the Soviet Embassy.

c) create a 'blue ribbon' panel to stop Bobby Kennedy, the Senate, and Texas from investigating the assassination.

d) Make sure that this 'blue ribbon' panel relied solely on the FBI for evidence and witnesses.

LBJ Phone Calls - November 1963
TRANSCRIPT (PDF: 162 K)

Less than 24 hours after the assassination of President Kennedy, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover reported to the new President Johnson on the state of the investigation. Noting that the evidence against [Oswald] is "not very very strong", Hoover reported on the tracing of the rifle to an alias of Oswald and other details implicating him in the shooting.

But when LBJ then asked "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico in September," an event of no little interest to the inner circles of government, Hoover replied "No, that's one angle that's very confusing for this reason. We have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet Embassy, using Oswald's name. The picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet Embassy down there." In other words, an imposter had implicated Oswald in a relationship with Soviet agents, less than two months before the assassination.

Could not agree more. I deal in facts not fiction.

Ford changing the final report is fact.

Ford's relationship with Hoover is fact.

LBJ's telephone conversation with Hoover regarding the investigation is fact.

Allen W. Dulles, lawyer and former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency terminated by JFK and his conflict of interest is fact.

The HSCA finding that "The Warren Commission failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President. This deficiency was attributable in part to the failure of the commission to receive all the relevant information that was in the possession of other agencies and departments of the Government" is fact;

The Central Intelligence Agency was deficient in its collection and sharing of information both prior to and subsequent to the assassination, is fact;

"The Federal Bureau of Investigation failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President and The Federal Bureau of Investigation was deficient in its sharing of information with other agencies and departments", is fact;

"The Warren Report was not, in some respects, an accurate presentation of all the evidence available to the Commission or a true reflection of the scope of the Commission's work, particularly on the issue of possible conspiracy in the assassination", is fact.

This would lead a reasonably prudent person to beleive that a conspiracy is within the realm of possibility and there was a conspiracy as expressed in the relation between Ford, Hoover and LBJ.

The problem I have with this whole situation is the Warren Commission investigation and how it was conducted by the FBI and the CIA, the relationship between Gerald Ford and Hoover and the FBI and the appointment of Dulles who was fired by JFK as head of the CIA who not only had an inherent conflict of interest but tacitly withheld information pertinent to the investigation. Indeed, those Assist Counsel recommended by Ford for the Warren Commission were the architects of the lone gunman theory.

Hoover wanted a lone gunman theory to prevail, the Warren Commission was thwarted or chose not to investigate a possible conspiracy. Indeed, Gerald Ford actually changed the final report. One question the HSCA had was, "Why senior officials of the FBI and the CIA permitted the investigation to go forward, in light of these deficiencies, and why they permitted the Warren Commission to reach its conclusion without all relevant information is still unclear... But the possibility exists that senior officials in both agencies made conscious decisions not to disclose potentially important information."

"In conclusion, the (HSCA) found ... the Warren Report was not, in some respects, an accurate presentation of all the evidence available to the Commission or a true reflection of the scope of the Commission's work, particularly on the issue of possible conspiracy in the assassination. It is a reality to be regretted that the Commission failed to live up to its promise."

It has been clearly shown the Warren Commission reached a conclusion based upon partial evidence, they did not seek to exercise their rights and use independent investigators, but, relied on those who may have had “unclean hands”.

Based upon the aforementioned the findings of the Warren Commission should be rejected.

 

[Bfgrn]

I am opened minded to many thoughts and theories I questioned the one you put up. Further, to suggest Dale Myers in any serious discussion is to go far afield from trying to derive the truth of these matters.

If you question the one I put up, I suggest you explore the LBJ conversations with J Edgar Hoover. There was a definite government conspiracy to:

a) pin the whole blame on Oswald who would never stand trial.

b) Cover up the events that transpired in Mexico City a little more than a month before the assassination where an Oswald imposter showed up at the Soviet Embassy.

c) create a 'blue ribbon' panel to stop Bobby Kennedy, the Senate, and Texas from investigating the assassination.

d) Make sure that this 'blue ribbon' panel relied solely on the FBI for evidence and witnesses.

LBJ Phone Calls - November 1963
TRANSCRIPT (PDF: 162 K)

Less than 24 hours after the assassination of President Kennedy, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover reported to the new President Johnson on the state of the investigation. Noting that the evidence against [Oswald] is "not very very strong", Hoover reported on the tracing of the rifle to an alias of Oswald and other details implicating him in the shooting.

But when LBJ then asked "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico in September," an event of no little interest to the inner circles of government, Hoover replied "No, that's one angle that's very confusing for this reason. We have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet Embassy, using Oswald's name. The picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet Embassy down there." In other words, an imposter had implicated Oswald in a relationship with Soviet agents, less than two months before the assassination.

Could not agree more. I deal in facts not fiction.

Ford changing the final report is fact.

Ford's relationship with Hoover is fact.

LBJ's telephone conversation with Hoover regarding the investigation is fact.

Allen W. Dulles, lawyer and former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency terminated by JFK and his conflict of interest is fact.

The HSCA finding that "The Warren Commission failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President. This deficiency was attributable in part to the failure of the commission to receive all the relevant information that was in the possession of other agencies and departments of the Government" is fact;

The Central Intelligence Agency was deficient in its collection and sharing of information both prior to and subsequent to the assassination, is fact;

"The Federal Bureau of Investigation failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President and The Federal Bureau of Investigation was deficient in its sharing of information with other agencies and departments", is fact;

"The Warren Report was not, in some respects, an accurate presentation of all the evidence available to the Commission or a true reflection of the scope of the Commission's work, particularly on the issue of possible conspiracy in the assassination", is fact.

This would lead a reasonably prudent person to beleive that a conspiracy is within the realm of possibility and there was a conspiracy as expressed in the relation between Ford, Hoover and LBJ.

The problem I have with this whole situation is the Warren Commission investigation and how it was conducted by the FBI and the CIA, the relationship between Gerald Ford and Hoover and the FBI and the appointment of Dulles who was fired by JFK as head of the CIA who not only had an inherent conflict of interest but tacitly withheld information pertinent to the investigation. Indeed, those Assist Counsel recommended by Ford for the Warren Commission were the architects of the lone gunman theory.

Hoover wanted a lone gunman theory to prevail, the Warren Commission was thwarted or chose not to investigate a possible conspiracy. Indeed, Gerald Ford actually changed the final report. One question the HSCA had was, "Why senior officials of the FBI and the CIA permitted the investigation to go forward, in light of these deficiencies, and why they permitted the Warren Commission to reach its conclusion without all relevant information is still unclear... But the possibility exists that senior officials in both agencies made conscious decisions not to disclose potentially important information."

"In conclusion, the (HSCA) found ... the Warren Report was not, in some respects, an accurate presentation of all the evidence available to the Commission or a true reflection of the scope of the Commission's work, particularly on the issue of possible conspiracy in the assassination. It is a reality to be regretted that the Commission failed to live up to its promise."

It has been clearly shown the Warren Commission reached a conclusion based upon partial evidence, they did not seek to exercise their rights and use independent investigators, but, relied on those who may have had “unclean hands”.

Based upon the aforementioned the findings of the Warren Commission should be rejected.

Anyone that has looked at the evidence in this case and understands government, the political climate and the personalities involved in 1963 can clearly see there are too many anomalies and unscientific conclusions for the Warren Report to be considered a clear and solid case that Oswald acted alone. The Warren Report is for all intents and purposes J Edgar Hoover's FBI version of what happened. That conclusion was determined the moment Oswald expired. The forensic evidence is based on a botched autopsy performed by 2 pencil pushers who hadn't performed an autopsy since college labs.

Try for one moment to imagine what would have happened if the government had come out in 1964 with this report:

The President of the United States of America was murdered at high noon on an American city street. One probable gunman has been apprehended, but other suspected gunman are unknown and still at large.

Lyndon Johnson's nuts would have been flown on the FBI flagpole the very next day.

 

[Bfgrn]

The Warren Commission apparently did not have the sort of cooperative relationship with the FBI one might have wished for in so important an investigation. “The evidence,” the House Select Committee on Assassinations discovered, “indicates that Hoover viewed the Warren Commission more as an adversary than a partner in a search for the facts of the assassination.” The HSCA’s chief counsel, Robert Blakey, an experienced criminal investigator and prosecutor himself, was impressed with neither the Commission’s vigor nor its independence from the FBI. “What was significant,” Blakey has written, “was the ability of the FBI to intimidate the Commission, in light of the bureau’s predisposition on the questions of Oswald’s guilt and whether there had been a conspiracy.

At a January 27 [1964] Commission meeting, there was another dialogue [among Warren Commissioners]:

“John McCloy: … the time is almost overdue for us to have a better perspective of the FBI investigation than we now have … We are so dependent on them for our facts … .

Commission counsel J. Lee Rankin: Part of our difficulty in regard to it is that they have no problem. They have decided that no one else is involved … .

Senator Richard Russell: They have tried the case and reached a verdict on every aspect.

Senator Hale Boggs: You have put your finger on it. (Closed Warren Commission meeting.)”

FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover
(LBJ Library Photo)

Hoover may have succeeded in intimidating the Commission by employing one of his favorite dirty tricks. “[D]erogatory information pertaining to both Commission members and staff was brought to Mr. Hoover’s attention,” the Church Committee discovered. During an appearance before the HSCA in 1977, no less than Warren Commission chief counsel J. Lee Rankin sheepishly conceded, “Who could protest against what Mr. Hoover did back in those days?” Apparently not even presidential appointees.

Thus, with the exposes of the Church and Select Committees, the government has itself granted one of the more potent criticisms of Warren Commission skeptics: that its final conclusions had been determined even before work had commenced. Looked at this way, the reasons for the Commission’s inattention to clear conflicts in the medical and autopsy evidence can be seen as of a piece with the Commission’s general disinterest in anyone other than Oswald, an orientation that is well explored in the works of skeptics such as Sylvia Meagher, Harold Weisberg, Josiah Thompson, Henry Hurt, Peter Dale Scott, Robert Blakey, etc.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

This statement qualifies what you have provided, "It is this type of grossly irrational action that leads any concerned and level-headed person to conclude that a massive conspiracy had taken over and was strong enough during 1964 to control the Warren Commission." By it's own merits it is speculative in nature and that is the weight I will give it.


I am not wedded to any one idea. In fact, what skye had provided is certainly more persuasive in this post http://www.usmessageboard.com/8517610-post2397.html

 

[LA RAM FAN]

I am opened minded to many thoughts and theories I questioned the one you put up. Further, to suggest Dale Myers in any serious discussion is to go far afield from trying to derive the truth of these matters.

If you question the one I put up, I suggest you explore the LBJ conversations with J Edgar Hoover. There was a definite government conspiracy to:

a) pin the whole blame on Oswald who would never stand trial.

b) Cover up the events that transpired in Mexico City a little more than a month before the assassination where an Oswald imposter showed up at the Soviet Embassy.

c) create a 'blue ribbon' panel to stop Bobby Kennedy, the Senate, and Texas from investigating the assassination.

d) Make sure that this 'blue ribbon' panel relied solely on the FBI for evidence and witnesses.

LBJ Phone Calls - November 1963
TRANSCRIPT (PDF: 162 K)

Less than 24 hours after the assassination of President Kennedy, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover reported to the new President Johnson on the state of the investigation. Noting that the evidence against [Oswald] is "not very very strong", Hoover reported on the tracing of the rifle to an alias of Oswald and other details implicating him in the shooting.

But when LBJ then asked "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico in September," an event of no little interest to the inner circles of government, Hoover replied "No, that's one angle that's very confusing for this reason. We have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet Embassy, using Oswald's name. The picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet Embassy down there." In other words, an imposter had implicated Oswald in a relationship with Soviet agents, less than two months before the assassination.

Could not agree more. I deal in facts not fiction.

Ford changing the final report is fact.

Ford's relationship with Hoover is fact.

LBJ's telephone conversation with Hoover regarding the investigation is fact.

Allen W. Dulles, lawyer and former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency terminated by JFK and his conflict of interest is fact.

The HSCA finding that "The Warren Commission failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President. This deficiency was attributable in part to the failure of the commission to receive all the relevant information that was in the possession of other agencies and departments of the Government" is fact;

The Central Intelligence Agency was deficient in its collection and sharing of information both prior to and subsequent to the assassination, is fact;

"The Federal Bureau of Investigation failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President and The Federal Bureau of Investigation was deficient in its sharing of information with other agencies and departments", is fact;

"The Warren Report was not, in some respects, an accurate presentation of all the evidence available to the Commission or a true reflection of the scope of the Commission's work, particularly on the issue of possible conspiracy in the assassination", is fact.

This would lead a reasonably prudent person to beleive that a conspiracy is within the realm of possibility and there was a conspiracy as expressed in the relation between Ford, Hoover and LBJ.

The problem I have with this whole situation is the Warren Commission investigation and how it was conducted by the FBI and the CIA, the relationship between Gerald Ford and Hoover and the FBI and the appointment of Dulles who was fired by JFK as head of the CIA who not only had an inherent conflict of interest but tacitly withheld information pertinent to the investigation. Indeed, those Assist Counsel recommended by Ford for the Warren Commission were the architects of the lone gunman theory.

Hoover wanted a lone gunman theory to prevail, the Warren Commission was thwarted or chose not to investigate a possible conspiracy. Indeed, Gerald Ford actually changed the final report. One question the HSCA had was, "Why senior officials of the FBI and the CIA permitted the investigation to go forward, in light of these deficiencies, and why they permitted the Warren Commission to reach its conclusion without all relevant information is still unclear... But the possibility exists that senior officials in both agencies made conscious decisions not to disclose potentially important information."

"In conclusion, the (HSCA) found ... the Warren Report was not, in some respects, an accurate presentation of all the evidence available to the Commission or a true reflection of the scope of the Commission's work, particularly on the issue of possible conspiracy in the assassination. It is a reality to be regretted that the Commission failed to live up to its promise."

It has been clearly shown the Warren Commission reached a conclusion based upon partial evidence, they did not seek to exercise their rights and use independent investigators, but, relied on those who may have had “unclean hands”.

Based upon the aforementioned the findings of the Warren Commission should be rejected.

You probably have noticed that the magic bullet theorists "or the ones who acknowledge a conspiracy took place but it was solely the mob behind it and no government involvement," that unlike you,they deal with fiction INSTEAD of facts.

they never have any answers for any of those facts you mentioned.

Like you mentioned Ford relationship with Hoover.They deny reality that Ford secretly tape recorded the hearings of the warren commission members and turned those tapes over to Hoover.His reward as you know for particpating in the coverup,was the oval office.

He might have been able to redeem himself had he came forward and told everything he knew in his final days but like Nixon,he held his breath and took the secrets to his grave and is now suffering miserably in the world beyond forever paying for it,not that Im religious or anything.

the thing that REALLY cracks me up is even the HSCA investigation in the 70's concluded the warren commission was wrong,that there was a second shooter indeed behind the grassy knoll,yet we STILL have trolls coming on here and other message boards ignoring that fact saying oswald was the lone assassin.

 

[7forever]

JFK Assassination: One Month After JFK’s Murder, Former President Harry Truman Called For Abolishing The CIA
JFK Assassination: One Month After JFK?s Murder, Former President Harry Truman Called For Abolishing The CIA

In December 1963, Truman articulated in no uncertain terms what he thought of the CIA’s covert operations dimension:

Truman said they should “be terminated.”

Later, in 1964, Truman would reiterate his call for removing covert operations from the CIA in a letter to Look magazine -- underscoring that he never intended the CIA to get involved in “strange activities” when he signed the legislation creating the institution.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

This statement reaches at least as far back as the JFK assassination, no doubt.

CORRECT GHWB QUOTE - WITH SARAH MCCLENDON

Posted By: Guarded_Optimist
Date: Friday, 17-Nov-2006 15:13:42

In Response To: GHWB QUOTE ON ABC DURING THE 1990's (Guarded_Optimist)

A reader sent in the corrected quote. It appeared during a June 1992 interview with the late Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time.

https://www.google.com/#q=george+bush+if+they+ever+knew+what+we+did

*************************************************
Peace . Gold . LOVE | Daily Paul

Sarah McClendon: "What will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George H.W. Bush: "Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us."

Seven, if the American people ever find out that you are loose, they will chase you down the streets and throw you in an insane asylum.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Bush Sr Laughs at JFK Shooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbk4HMt4N7g

Mr Worf Laughs at Seven Forever.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I confess that I did it. I was actually shooting at the son-of-a-***** LBJ, but missed....

 

[Rat in the Hat]

This statement reaches at least as far back as the JFK assassination, no doubt.

CORRECT GHWB QUOTE - WITH SARAH MCCLENDON

Posted By: Guarded_Optimist
Date: Friday, 17-Nov-2006 15:13:42

In Response To: GHWB QUOTE ON ABC DURING THE 1990's (Guarded_Optimist)

A reader sent in the corrected quote. It appeared during a June 1992 interview with the late Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time.

https://www.google.com/#q=george+bush+if+they+ever+knew+what+we+did

*************************************************
Peace . Gold . LOVE | Daily Paul

Sarah McClendon: "What will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George H.W. Bush: "Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us."

Bush Sr Laughs at JFK Shooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbk4HMt4N7g

Gumby gets drunk after watching Seven repeatedly deleting and reposting his fantasies.

 

[7forever]

This statement reaches at least as far back as the JFK assassination, no doubt.

CORRECT GHWB QUOTE - WITH SARAH MCCLENDON

Posted By: Guarded_Optimist
Date: Friday, 17-Nov-2006 15:13:42

In Response To: GHWB QUOTE ON ABC DURING THE 1990's (Guarded_Optimist)

A reader sent in the corrected quote. It appeared during a June 1992 interview with the late Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time.

https://www.google.com/#q=george+bush+if+they+ever+knew+what+we+did

*************************************************
Peace . Gold . LOVE | Daily Paul

Sarah McClendon: "What will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George H.W. Bush: "Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us."


Bush Sr Laughs at JFK Shooting

 

[daws101]

This statement reaches at least as far back as the JFK assassination, no doubt.

CORRECT GHWB QUOTE - WITH SARAH MCCLENDON

Posted By: Guarded_Optimist
Date: Friday, 17-Nov-2006 15:13:42

In Response To: GHWB QUOTE ON ABC DURING THE 1990's (Guarded_Optimist)

A reader sent in the corrected quote. It appeared during a June 1992 interview with the late Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time.

https://www.google.com/#q=george+bush+if+they+ever+knew+what+we+did

*************************************************
Peace . Gold . LOVE | Daily Paul

Sarah McClendon: "What will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George H.W. Bush: "Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us."


Bush Sr Laughs at JFK Shooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbk4HMt4N7g

this is reaching even for you 7....
living in an 8x4 cell will do that...

 

[Rat in the Hat]

This statement reaches at least as far back as the JFK assassination, no doubt.

CORRECT GHWB QUOTE - WITH SARAH MCCLENDON

Posted By: Guarded_Optimist
Date: Friday, 17-Nov-2006 15:13:42

In Response To: GHWB QUOTE ON ABC DURING THE 1990's (Guarded_Optimist)

A reader sent in the corrected quote. It appeared during a June 1992 interview with the late Sarah McClendon, the grand dame of the White House press corps at the time.

https://www.google.com/#q=george+bush+if+they+ever+knew+what+we+did

*************************************************
Peace . Gold . LOVE | Daily Paul

Sarah McClendon: "What will the people do if they ever find out the truth about Iraq-gate and Iran contra?

George H.W. Bush: "Sarah, if the American people ever find out what we have done, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us."


Bush Sr Laughs at JFK Shooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbk4HMt4N7g

Third time that Seven has deleted and reposted this bullshit.

Will he do it a 4th time? The whole world wonders.

 

[daws101]

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Here is the thing I find very interesting about the jfk assassination is that Jimmy Carter,our last decent president we had since JFK,our last grear president not a puppet for the establishment,that like JFK,carter was also taking steps to get rid of the CIA.He had early on in his administration,fired bastard Fords appointee George Bush and replaced him with Stansfield Turner who cleaned house immediately firing all the covert specialists and reforming the CIA. Carter then tried to take steps to completely get rid of them.The CIA got wind of it obviously because there was an assassination attempt on his life with two of the fall guys being arressted were amazingly named Raymond Lee Harvey and the other ones first name starting with Osvaldo.


1979 U.S. President Jimmy Carter Assassination Attempt: CIA To Carter "Play Ball Or We'll Kill You Like We Did JFK." | Alternative


the message from the CIA they were sending to carter was clear with those two names of those assassins,-we know what you are doing,stop it and play ball with us or you will die as Jfk did.

Carter then got the message and caved in aborting his plans to get rid of the CIA and serve the people.