The Jews and the Native Americans

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter).

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?


.

No, it is not. Absent an agreement about borders, between the parties, Palestinians and Israelis, Israel will never have legitimacy under international law. That is beacause it is the indigenous peoples who had sovereignty rights in the land, which did not include all the Jewish settlers of the past century, and the UN Charter makes acquisition of lands by military conquest unlawful.

 

[Jroc]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter).

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?


.

No, it is not. Absent an agreement about borders, between the parties, Palestinians and Israelis, Israel will never have legitimacy under international law. That is beacause it is the indigenous peoples who had sovereignty rights in the land, which did not include all the Jewish settlers of the past century, and the UN Charter makes acquisition of lands by military conquest unlawful.

Sorry but all those Arabs are not "indigenous"...understand?

 

[MHunterB]

If Israel has 'no legitimacy under international law', how is it a member state of the UN? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter).

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?


.

No, it is not. Absent an agreement about borders, between the parties, Palestinians and Israelis, Israel will never have legitimacy under international law. That is beacause it is the indigenous peoples who had sovereignty rights in the land, which did not include all the Jewish settlers of the past century, and the UN Charter makes acquisition of lands by military conquest unlawful.

Sorry but all those Arabs are not "indigenous"...understand?

I pity you and your inability to see the truth.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

If Israel has 'no legitimacy under international law', how is it a member state of the UN? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Being a UN Member does not establish borders for Nations. A Nation without borders, that is a huge problem Israel has there!

 

[Jroc]

No, it is not. Absent an agreement about borders, between the parties, Palestinians and Israelis, Israel will never have legitimacy under international law. That is beacause it is the indigenous peoples who had sovereignty rights in the land, which did not include all the Jewish settlers of the past century, and the UN Charter makes acquisition of lands by military conquest unlawful.

Sorry but all those Arabs are not "indigenous"...understand?

I pity you and your inability to see the truth.

You're the one who should be pitied, you're consumed with hate. I have no such illness

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Sorry but all those Arabs are not "indigenous"...understand?

I pity you and your inability to see the truth.

You're the one who should be pitied, you're consumed with hate. I have no such illness

They are human beings, who I see as human beings, all the Arabs you do not recognize. As long as I see every person as a human being created in the image of God and see that no matter what any man may do they have the capacity to change, I am fine and I hate noone. Nothing you can do to make me hate you or anyone else. As I said, I pity you. Pity is not hate

 

[Jroc]

I pity you and your inability to see the truth.

You're the one who should be pitied, you're consumed with hate. I have no such illness

They are human beings, who I see as human beings, all the Arabs you do not recognize. As long as I see every person as a human being created in the image of God and see that no matter what any man may do they have the capacity to change, I am fine and I hate noone. Nothing you can do to make me hate you or anyone else. As I said, I pity you. Pity is not hate

Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..Get some help

 

[MHunterB]

I pity you and your inability to see the truth.

You're the one who should be pitied, you're consumed with hate. I have no such illness

They are human beings, who I see as human beings, all the Arabs you do not recognize. As long as I see every person as a human being created in the image of God and see that no matter what any man may do they have the capacity to change, I am fine and I hate noone. Nothing you can do to make me hate you or anyone else. As I said, I pity you. Pity is not hate

Just one more way to puff yourself up with that pride, sherrikins...... You sure have some screaming need to set yourself above anyone else! A hint for ya, sherriliar: people who don't hate, don't call others 'scum of the earth' the way you have.

 

[flowery]

Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..

Lets' pretend "holocaust" was true ,, Israel commits the same as "holocaust" against Muslims in Palestine everyday

 

[sealadaigh]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

there is nothing wrong with a hypothetical analogy, particularly when the creation of the state of israel is pretty much without precedent.[/QUOTE]

As the creation of the modern State of Israel is pretty much without precedent, I think hypothetical scenarios are even LESS useful here.

if something is without precedent, the only valid analogies are necessarily hypothetical.

there is nothing wrong with them...other than you usually have no answer.

 

[sealadaigh]

Actually, Marg, we used to have Native American posters, such as one from the Navajo Nation of the Dené tribe in Arizona, and they were all for Israel.

American Indian activist Russell Means said President-elect Obama was selected by the colonial powers as president to improve the US image globally in the aftermath of George Bush. Further, Means said Obama’s appointments show that he is a Zionist controlled by Israel. Speaking on Red Town Radio today, Means said what is happening now to Palestinians is what happened to American Indians.

“Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian,” Means said on the Blog Talk Radio show, hosted by Brenda Golden, Muskoke Creek. “What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East,” Means said. Further, he points out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. “The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.”

Russell Means Breaks the Silence on Obama » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

wanbli ohitika (russell means) is his native name and i have always tried to use them out of respect. i think he speaks for A.I.M. and representnts the rights of many indigenous people, to include the irish.

most native americans support A.I.M. with the exception of those few whose ancestors have succumbed to having the "indian" beaten out of them in the reservation schools when they were run by evangelical christians.

jaysus, maire, and joe don't lie...and neither should you.

(discussing the internal politics of A.I.M. would be off topic.)

Its sad to see that Means has succumbed to the insanity of conspiranuttery: the whole 'colonialist' thing, and of course the filthy slander of 'Zionist controlled by Israel' about the current president.

The kind of thing that only extremely ignorant or evil people say, that slander. I'm hoping Means is simply that ignorant.

most native americans support A.I.M. with the exception of those few whose ancestors have succumbed to having the "indian" beaten out of them in the reservation schools when they were run by evangelical christians. This is not the case with the NA people I know: none of them are even nominally Christian in any way. Well, I can go and ask and see what different people posting have to say about the quote you've provided.

wanbli ohitika was a spoksperson for many american indians and indigenous peoples around the world until his death. he doesn't speak for all of them. i agree with his core opinion and stance on israel. i think the implication that most american indians accept israel is a kie.

i have no idea about your native american friends. i live out west and israel has only come up in a conversation once, and the tribal members present at the tribal council passed a resolution opposing the occupation.

you say they support israel. so? do you expect them to be confrontational. i have no idea what that means. i think though, thay that support would dwindle if the question were asked in more generic terms.

at any rate, this has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario presented in the opening post. it is a deflection on your part and hoss' part.

i have never seen anyone really address the issue of israel in generic terms....which very simply put is "would you support a people going back to a currently populated land that they claim inhabited millenia ago, based upon their religion, and displacing the native people, and establishing a state based upon that religion?"

i think people who are jewish should be treated equally as all other people, not less important and not special.

 

[editec]

Those of you seeking MORAL JUSTIFICATION for the existence of Israel or any other nation state are wasting your time.

Nation states are Amoral...all of them.

Unless your a faith-based geopolitical thinker, in which case one can justify anything with magical thinking.

Now seriously...other than those of us who ARE magical thinkers, who among us did not ALREADY know this?

Certainly this threads author understands that perfectly.

His rhetorical post is just that...a statement pretending to be a question.

Rhetorical chum cast into these waters infested by Israel-obsessed.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Those of you seeking MORAL JUSTIFICATION for the existence of Israel or any other nation state are wasting your time.

Nation states are Amoral...all of them.

Unless your a faith-based geopolitical thinker, in which case one can justify anything with magical thinking.

Now seriously...other than those of us who ARE magical thinkers, who among us did not ALREADY know this?

Certainly this threads author understands that perfectly.

His rhetorical post is just that...a statement pretending to be a question.

Rhetorical chum cast into these waters infested by Israel-obsessed.

I agree, Nations are all amoral. But where does that take us, exactly, whether we acknowledge that or we do not?

 

[Hossfly]

Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..

Israel commits the same as "holocaust" against Arab (Muslims & Christians) in Palestine everyday

This is disturbing news. You should notify the news media to expose this to the world Thanks for making us aware.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..

Israel commits the same as "holocaust" against Arab (Muslims & Christians) in Palestine everyday

This is disturbing news. You should notify the news media to expose this to the world Thanks for making us aware.

I promise you there are millions of people of conscience all over this world this very moment bringing Truth into the Light about Israels atrocities against humanity. We will never ever stop talking about these crimes as long as they continue, we cannot be silenced. That is the essence of Truth, it is always brought into the Light. Sherri

 

[Hossfly]

Israel commits the same as "holocaust" against Arab (Muslims & Christians) in Palestine everyday

This is disturbing news. You should notify the news media to expose this to the world Thanks for making us aware.

I promise you there are millions of people of conscience all over this world this very moment bringing Truth into the Light about Israels atrocities against humanity. We will never ever stop talking about these crimes as long as they continue, we cannot be silenced. That is the essence of Truth, it is always brought into the Light. Sherri

Of course you have reputable news accounts along with videos of all this activity. I have my TV remote in hand and skimming over the news channels and they aren't talking about Israel's atrocities. What gives?

 

[GHook93]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter).

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?
.

Actually you understand VERY little. The Jews have been in the land of Israel from the biblical times. There have been mass expulsions going back 100s of years ago nad many times of Jews regaining the lands to self-rule to just lose them years later. Jews have ALWAYS made up a large part of Jerusalem's population. Whent the Arab Crusaders/Caliphates entered Jerusalem lead by the great warlord, child rapist and mass murdering theft Mohammad, the Jews were the majority of Jerusalem's population. Whent he Christian Crusaders invaded Jerusalem, Jews were fighting along side Muslims against the Christians. The lands passed eventually to the Ottomans/Turks. The Turks PURPOSELY suppressed populations and during the Turkish rule of the lands, the population was at it most sparse.

The only creditable account of the population back then was Mark Twain. He said it best the lands had few people upon them.

Mark Twain in the Holy Land | Zionism and the State of Israel
“….. A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent mournful expanse…. a desolation…. we never saw a human being on the whole route…. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”

He was amazed by the smallness of the city of Jerusalem:

“A fast walker could go outside the walls of Jerusalem and walk entirely around the city in an hour. I do not know how else to make one understand how small it is.”

And he described the Temple Mount thus:

“The mighty Mosque of Omar, and the paved court around it, occupy a fourth part of Jerusalem. They are upon Mount Moriah, where King Solomon’s Temple stood. This Mosque is the holiest place the Mohammedan knows, outside of Mecca. Up to within a year or two past, no christian could gain admission to it or its court for love or money. But the prohibition has been removed, and we entered freely for bucksheesh.”

However, even during this time the Jews were the MAJORITY in Jerusalem.

The during the late 1800s and early 1900s many Jews migrated back to their homeland. Heck Tel Aviv was founded in 1906! This was before WW II. Muslims migrated to the lands starting around this time also. However, it wasn't until the BRITISH WHITE PAPER days that the Muslims migrated in mass numbers. The Jews were building up the lands and forming the infrastructure to create an economic with a lot of opportunity. It was the only place at the time in the middle east, African or Asia that was doing this. The Arabs wanted in on the party and many migrated to the lands. During the British White Paper period, Jewish migration was forbiden, but Muslim immigration went unchecked. Muslims could come and they were never even checked! This is when the vast majority of the Arabs (and their dissendents) that call themselves Palestinians migrated to Israel.

You know nothing mental midget!

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

There was no "Land of Israel" befire 1948. All do not buy into Zionist fairytales. Sherri

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

This is disturbing news. You should notify the news media to expose this to the world Thanks for making us aware.

I promise you there are millions of people of conscience all over this world this very moment bringing Truth into the Light about Israels atrocities against humanity. We will never ever stop talking about these crimes as long as they continue, we cannot be silenced. That is the essence of Truth, it is always brought into the Light. Sherri

Of course you have reputable news accounts along with videos of all this activity. I have my TV remote in hand and skimming over the news channels and they aren't talking about Israel's atrocities. What gives?

We have thousands of reports of human rights groups and NGOs documenting the crimes against humanity Israel is carrying out in Palestine. No way Israel can get rid of all of that damning evidence against her.