The Jews and the Native Americans

[KevinWestern]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter).

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?


.

Don't dig any deeper or you'll end up in China.

MHunter provides a bit of information to help me shape, improve my knowledge of the subject. You, on the other hand, don't provide much of anything except for one-liners.

Sort of a waste of server space (or wherever these posts are stored), don't you think?

.

 

[sealadaigh]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

there is nothing wrong with a hypothetical analogy, particularly when the creation of the state of israel is pretty much without precedent.

 

[Hossfly]

Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter).

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?


.

Don't dig any deeper or you'll end up in China.

MHunter provides a bit of information to help me shape, improve my knowledge of the subject. You, on the other hand, don't provide much of anything except for one-liners.

Sort of a waste of server space (or wherever these posts are stored), don't you think?

.

Sorry 'bout that. Go ahead and get some learnin'. I won't bother you.

 

[KevinWestern]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

You're missing the argument.

What's important is that it was not the Jews who were in control of the region when Israel was plopped down (officially) following WWII. They didn't even represent a majority of the population.

Or am I incorrect? Were the Jews in control of the Palestinian region at the time?

Point being is that I see the creation of the Israeli nation as such; the Brits forcefully drew the borders of the state in a region that was not theirs to the dismay of the powers that were residing in the area.

.

 

[KevinWestern]

Don't dig any deeper or you'll end up in China.

MHunter provides a bit of information to help me shape, improve my knowledge of the subject. You, on the other hand, don't provide much of anything except for one-liners.

Sort of a waste of server space (or wherever these posts are stored), don't you think?

.

Sorry 'bout that. Go ahead and get some learnin'. I won't bother you.

Don't apologize to me, I'm just trying to help you get some meaningful thought out there to foster a healthy discussion (instead of wasting your time with one-liners).

 

[Hossfly]

MHunter provides a bit of information to help me shape, improve my knowledge of the subject. You, on the other hand, don't provide much of anything except for one-liners.

Sort of a waste of server space (or wherever these posts are stored), don't you think?

.

Sorry 'bout that. Go ahead and get some learnin'. I won't bother you.

Don't apologize to me, I'm just trying to help you get some meaningful thought out there to foster a healthy discussion (instead of wasting your time with one-liners).

One liners are clear, correct and consise. Doesn't fill the air with a lot of unnecessary tripe and jabberwocky.

 

[sealadaigh]

Incidentally, most of my NA friends and acquaintances are quite supportive of Judaism, Israel and Zionism.

But then they have an accurate understanding of Zionism and don't confuse it with 'European imperialism'.

Actually, Marg, we used to have Native American posters, such as one from the Navajo Nation of the Dené tribe in Arizona, and they were all for Israel.

American Indian activist Russell Means said President-elect Obama was selected by the colonial powers as president to improve the US image globally in the aftermath of George Bush. Further, Means said Obama’s appointments show that he is a Zionist controlled by Israel. Speaking on Red Town Radio today, Means said what is happening now to Palestinians is what happened to American Indians.

“Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian,” Means said on the Blog Talk Radio show, hosted by Brenda Golden, Muskoke Creek. “What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East,” Means said. Further, he points out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. “The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.”

Russell Means Breaks the Silence on Obama » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

wanbli ohitika (russell means) is his native name and i have always tried to use them out of respect. i think he speaks for A.I.M. and representnts the rights of many indigenous people, to include the irish.

most native americans support A.I.M. with the exception of those few whose ancestors have succumbed to having the "indian" beaten out of them in the reservation schools when they were run by evangelical christians.

jaysus, maire, and joe don't lie...and neither should you.

(discussing the internal politics of A.I.M. would be off topic.)

 

[KevinWestern]

Sorry 'bout that. Go ahead and get some learnin'. I won't bother you.

Don't apologize to me, I'm just trying to help you get some meaningful thought out there to foster a healthy discussion (instead of wasting your time with one-liners).

One liners are clear, correct and consise. Doesn't fill the air with a lot of unnecessary tripe and jabberwocky.

Much like how the one-liner soundbites have fostered healthy political debate within the United States in the past decade or so?




.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

You're missing the argument.

What's important is that it was not the Jews who were in control of the region when Israel was plopped down (officially) following WWII. They didn't even represent a majority of the population.

Or am I incorrect? Were the Jews in control of the Palestinian region at the time?

Point being is that I see the creation of the Israeli nation as such; the Brits forcefully drew the borders of the state in a region that was not theirs to the dismay of the powers that were residing in the area.

.

Good place to start.

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study - Foreword, table of contents (30 June 1990)

 

[peach174]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

The New Israel State was made from a territory, not an already established State.

If America still had had territories instead of states in WWII, then yes, there should have been an American Indian State.

 

[sealadaigh]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

The New Israel State was made from a territory, not an already established State.

If America still had had territories instead of states in WWII, then yes, there should have been an American Indian State.

some people/nations have different concepts about states different from those of colonialist powers. some peoples, to include the native peoples of the americas, did not have political borders, as was their practice and their right.

i think to assume that other cultures have the same relationship with the land as the european cultures do is undertandable because it is so ingrained, but it is ignorant nonetheless.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

You're missing the argument.

What's important is that it was not the Jews who were in control of the region when Israel was plopped down (officially) following WWII. They didn't even represent a majority of the population.

Or am I incorrect? Were the Jews in control of the Palestinian region at the time?

Point being is that I see the creation of the Israeli nation as such; the Brits forcefully drew the borders of the state in a region that was not theirs to the dismay of the powers that were residing in the area.

.

Good place to start.

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study - Foreword, table of contents (30 June 1990)

I was reading some of these links that you provided, and it's interesting that in some of the agreements that Britain made with the Arabs, "Palestine" isn't even mentioned by that name, but only as a part of Syria.

 

[MHunterB]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

there is nothing wrong with a hypothetical analogy, particularly when the creation of the state of israel is pretty much without precedent.[/QUOTE]

As the creation of the modern State of Israel is pretty much without precedent, I think hypothetical scenarios are even LESS useful here.

 

[MHunterB]

Guns Germs, & Steel: Home

Has anyone else read the book? There is no one 'correct' historical narrative available, but I think this author is on to something.

The germs are an important part of the scenario which most historical accounts do not include.

 

[MHunterB]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

You're missing the argument.

What's important is that it was not the Jews who were in control of the region when Israel was plopped down (officially) following WWII. They didn't even represent a majority of the population.

Or am I incorrect? Were the Jews in control of the Palestinian region at the time?

Point being is that I see the creation of the Israeli nation as such; the Brits forcefully drew the borders of the state in a region that was not theirs to the dismay of the powers that were residing in the area.

.

Several items in your account which I will dispute - right after the frozen foods are secured. The kitton, in his irascible fashion, is disinterested in the new kibble and prefers to munch on the bag of cauliflower.......

 

[MHunterB]

Kevin: "You're missing the argument.
What's important is that it was not the Jews who were in control of the region when Israel was plopped down (officially) following WWII. They didn't even represent a majority of the population.

Or am I incorrect? Were the Jews in control of the Palestinian region at the time?

Point being is that I see the creation of the Israeli nation as such; the Brits forcefully drew the borders of the state in a region that was not theirs to the dismay of the powers that were residing in the area"


Marg: "Prior to the British (French and American) involvement, pretty much the entire ME was controlled by the non-Arab Ottoman Turks. They were as much a 'colonial' administration as any European group would have been: there *was* no Arab rule in any part of their territory so far as I am aware.

This article may help explain part of what happened in the Ottoman territory during the important time *prior* to when you think things began.... Rise of nationalism under the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "

 

[pbel]

Wouldn't fly. Too many NRA members.

Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military.

.

As I stated to you in another thread, Israel was given the land as a Covenant. The Indians sneaked in here like everybody else. Simple as that.

what covenant? Show us a deed! As usual you add Hosshiite when you have no logical answer.

 

[Hossfly]

Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military.

.

As I stated to you in another thread, Israel was given the land as a Covenant. The Indians sneaked in here like everybody else. Simple as that.

what covenant? Show us a deed! As usual you add Hosshiite when you have no logical answer.

Was it time for you to get your cheap thrill again, Phillip, so since you felt you had to get this needed thrill, you resorted to calling me "Hosshiite" again. Why not sign up with a dating site instead if you are so frustrated?

 

[MHunterB]

Incidentally, most of my NA friends and acquaintances are quite supportive of Judaism, Israel and Zionism.

But then they have an accurate understanding of Zionism and don't confuse it with 'European imperialism'.

Actually, Marg, we used to have Native American posters, such as one from the Navajo Nation of the Dené tribe in Arizona, and they were all for Israel.

American Indian activist Russell Means said President-elect Obama was selected by the colonial powers as president to improve the US image globally in the aftermath of George Bush. Further, Means said Obama’s appointments show that he is a Zionist controlled by Israel. Speaking on Red Town Radio today, Means said what is happening now to Palestinians is what happened to American Indians.

“Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian,” Means said on the Blog Talk Radio show, hosted by Brenda Golden, Muskoke Creek. “What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East,” Means said. Further, he points out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. “The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.”

Russell Means Breaks the Silence on Obama » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

wanbli ohitika (russell means) is his native name and i have always tried to use them out of respect. i think he speaks for A.I.M. and representnts the rights of many indigenous people, to include the irish.

most native americans support A.I.M. with the exception of those few whose ancestors have succumbed to having the "indian" beaten out of them in the reservation schools when they were run by evangelical christians.

jaysus, maire, and joe don't lie...and neither should you.

(discussing the internal politics of A.I.M. would be off topic.)

Its sad to see that Means has succumbed to the insanity of conspiranuttery: the whole 'colonialist' thing, and of course the filthy slander of 'Zionist controlled by Israel' about the current president.

The kind of thing that only extremely ignorant or evil people say, that slander. I'm hoping Means is simply that ignorant.

most native americans support A.I.M. with the exception of those few whose ancestors have succumbed to having the "indian" beaten out of them in the reservation schools when they were run by evangelical christians. This is not the case with the NA people I know: none of them are even nominally Christian in any way. Well, I can go and ask and see what different people posting have to say about the quote you've provided.

 

[MHunterB]

Oh, sealie? Just what was it I posted which you deemed to be a 'lie'? Are you seriously going to claim that recycled filth about 'Zionist control of the President' is some "truth" that I "know" - or were you merely trying to insinuate that Means in his conspiranuttery speaks for even a large number of NA people?