The Invention of the Land of Israel

[toastman]

et al,

The LoN Covenant was not broken. The Allied Powers, having won the war, made the decisions.

Everyone understood then, and understands now, what the process was and is today.

Everyone understood then, as they can still see today, communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have not reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations was possible. They are self-proclaimed terrorists hiding under the guise as freedom fighters and resistance movements. And while they are occupied, they brought that on themselves. Had they adopted peaceful means of dispute resolution, they would have been much better-off and there would have never been an occupation. But they insisted on conflict --- and terrorism --- that in the end made them a national and international security requiring occupation.

Again, how many different ways can it be said, the Palestinian People have exercised their right to self-determination, and they path they have chosen is violence to further their political and religious agenda. They have decided who they are. They are violent and give definition to violence and terrorism.

Who are they?

Palestinians Freedom Fighters​

They are what they are. The Palestinian has defined themselves (the right of self-determination). And they are treated accordingly.

Most Respectfully,
R

Had they adopted peaceful means of dispute resolution,...

Like what?

Are you ever going to stop playing these games

 

[Hossfly]

That is your opinion that Rocco is misinformed. The truth is that he posts actual facts that you don't want to hear. Tell us -- why do you think that you are so "informed?" Have you lived over there throughout the years or has a relative told you his version of what happened?

 

[P F Tinmore]

It is just that some of the things he posts do not match historical documents.

 

[Hossfly]

Rocco is cool. He just seems to be misinformed on some things.

That is your opinion that Rocco is misinformed. The truth is that he posts actual facts that you don't want to hear. Tell us -- why do you think that you are so "informed?" Have you lived over there throughout the years or has a relative told you his version of what happened?

It is just that some of the things he posts do not match historical documents.

Have you seen these historical documents, Tinnie? I think the discerning viewer will accept what Rocco posts.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That is your opinion that Rocco is misinformed. The truth is that he posts actual facts that you don't want to hear. Tell us -- why do you think that you are so "informed?" Have you lived over there throughout the years or has a relative told you his version of what happened?

It is just that some of the things he posts do not match historical documents.

Have you seen these historical documents, Tinnie? I think the discerning viewer will accept what Rocco posts.

I have.

I don't.

 

[Hossfly]

It is just that some of the things he posts do not match historical documents.

Have you seen these historical documents, Tinnie? I think the discerning viewer will accept what Rocco posts.

I have.

I don't.

I guess Tinnie is telling us that he was some official in Gaza or the offical safekeeper before he decided to immigrate to the U.S. if he saw these "Official" historical documents. By the way, Tinnie, no one is forcing you to believe what Rocco is saying. I just stated that the discerning viewer would believe Rocco. Now, Tinnie, what you have to get your friends to do is to leave heritage sites alone. You don't want people to be talking about them the way they talk about the Taliban destroying Buddhist statues.
UNESCO silent as Hamas bulldozes world heritage site for terrorist training camp at View from Geneva

 

[P F Tinmore]

Have you seen these historical documents, Tinnie? I think the discerning viewer will accept what Rocco posts.

I have.

I don't.

I guess Tinnie is telling us that he was some official in Gaza or the offical safekeeper before he decided to immigrate to the U.S. if he saw these "Official" historical documents. By the way, Tinnie, no one is forcing you to believe what Rocco is saying. I just stated that the discerning viewer would believe Rocco. Now, Tinnie, what you have to get your friends to do is to leave heritage sites alone. You don't want people to be talking about them the way they talk about the Taliban destroying Buddhist statues.
UNESCO silent as Hamas bulldozes world heritage site for terrorist training camp at View from Geneva

Actually, I usually find what I want at the Avalon project at Yale Law, the ICRC, or the UN.

 

[Hossfly]

I have.

I don't.

I guess Tinnie is telling us that he was some official in Gaza or the offical safekeeper before he decided to immigrate to the U.S. if he saw these "Official" historical documents. By the way, Tinnie, no one is forcing you to believe what Rocco is saying. I just stated that the discerning viewer would believe Rocco. Now, Tinnie, what you have to get your friends to do is to leave heritage sites alone. You don't want people to be talking about them the way they talk about the Taliban destroying Buddhist statues.
UNESCO silent as Hamas bulldozes world heritage site for terrorist training camp at View from Geneva

Actually, I usually find what I want at the Avalon project at Yale Law, the ICRC, or the UN.

Actually it sounds like you have an IN with Hamas, like a real insider. By the way, Rocco probably checks everything out before he posts anything, and he really sounds more believable than you. The individual viewers can make up their own minds as to whom they believe. As I said, you are not forced to believe anything Rocco posts.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I guess Tinnie is telling us that he was some official in Gaza or the offical safekeeper before he decided to immigrate to the U.S. if he saw these "Official" historical documents. By the way, Tinnie, no one is forcing you to believe what Rocco is saying. I just stated that the discerning viewer would believe Rocco. Now, Tinnie, what you have to get your friends to do is to leave heritage sites alone. You don't want people to be talking about them the way they talk about the Taliban destroying Buddhist statues.
UNESCO silent as Hamas bulldozes world heritage site for terrorist training camp at View from Geneva

Actually, I usually find what I want at the Avalon project at Yale Law, the ICRC, or the UN.

Actually it sounds like you have an IN with Hamas, like a real insider.

If I say the sky is blue and Hamas says the sky is blue, does that suggest a relationship? No. It only means that we have stated the same fact.

By the way, Rocco probably checks everything out before he posts anything, and he really sounds more believable than you. The individual viewers can make up their own minds as to whom they believe. As I said, you are not forced to believe anything Rocco posts.

There is a lot of say so out there that is not based on fact. If you draw your conclusion on false premise, you will draw a false conclusion even if your information is otherwise correct.

 

[Roudy]

Why, Tinnie Old Chap, I don't see you having a problem putting your two cents in when someone wasn't addressing you. I think the viewers realize that Rocco appears to know what he is talking about since it is obvious he has studied this issue thoroughly and has had access to what is going on through his time in the service (sounds like he worked in Intelligence), and you will never accept anything he says if it goes against your fellow Palestinians.

I wouldn't mind Rocco as a mod for this section. He seems to be a fair, well researched intelligent person, who is not committed to either side.

Rocco is cool. He just seems to be misinformed on some things.

I find it hilariously funny that a proud Hamas terrorist supporter is calling Rocco "misinformed". Compared to your Hamas IslamoNazi propaganda? I wouldn't even know where to begin. Ha ha ha.

 

[RoccoR]

SherriMunnerlyn; et al,

I don't think I ever implied this. In fact, I think I argued for Palestinian Statehood.

And it is even more laughable (I lmao at that argument) to argue terrorism is a reason to deny statehood to a people.

(COMMENT)

I think I was stating that a State that fosters terrorism as a means for dispute resolution should be quarantined.

Now in other discussions, I challenged whether the Palestinians, as a collective culture, have the capacity to successfully exercise self-government. But that is another issue, separate and distinct.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

reabhloideach, P F Tinmore; et al,

The object of a discussion group is to exchange ideas on any given subject.

hell, i may just pack up my tent and head to the CDZ. this forum really isn't getting much better.

(COMMENT)

Of course you can discontinue your participation, but that would not help me understand your particular POV or understand why you hold that view. I would rather you stay and continue to present your challenge from your frame of reference.

I see a benefit to your contributions. BTW, what is "CDZ?"

There is a lot of say so out there that is not based on fact. If you draw your conclusion on false premise, you will draw a false conclusion even if your information is otherwise correct.

(COMMENT)

Yes, this is an important aspect to any discussion. In most deductive arguments, this is true: A logical argument must be based on premises that are both sound (all premises are true) and valid (conclusion follows from the premises). Paul (in fact everyone) is quite correct to challenge conclusions and outcomes based on these concepts; if the argument is deductive in its construct. But there are other arguments that are not quite based on this standard.

Other types of arguments include:

• Inductive Argument
• Argument by Example
• Argument from Cause
• Argument from Testimony
• Argument from Narrative
• Argument from Ethos
• Argument From Sign
• Argument By Analogy

However, a difficulty sometimes comes into play in the interpretation of a fact (truth). This is particularly true when there is no absolute solution, or more than one solution. It is even made more ambiguous when truth becomes a series of successive approximations or has too many variables for a linear alignment. And this is the nature of this discussion (Israel and Palestine: Thoughts in this conflict?).

The idea of "misinformed" is an interpretational outcome of a conflict where "facts in evidence" are challenged because of associated variables.

Because people who pretend to know everything don't answer questions.

You have it firmly embedded in your mind so why don't you spell it out because you won't accept what Rocco says even when he's 100% correct.

Perhaps Rocco should be the one answering the question that I asked of him.

(COMMENT)

To the question:

Had they adopted peaceful means of dispute resolution,...

Like what?

There are several types of dispute resolution options and quite a few different strategies that could have been applied in this scenario; most of which are more flexible and less expensive than a formal litigation.

From the least to the More Complex

• Negotiation
• Mediation
• Arbitration
• Mediation-Arbitration Combination
• Collaborative Law

Some will argue that this has been tried before (various conferences, the intervention of the Quartet, the UN, etc), yet this does not mean that the dispute, with all the interlocking variables, remains intractable; or that the affirmation of the duty of a state or people is nullified. The basic global standard and duty is still that the plaintiff (the Palestinians) "shall settle their disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered."

Now, does this mean that the Israeli doesn't have a standard or obligation? (Rhetorical) No! Both sides must enter into the process in good faith. They must both be willing to invent a solution that meets the others objectives. They both must be able to compromise and abandone that political architecture that promotes conflict with the other.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

SherriMunnerlyn; et al,

I don't think I ever implied this. In fact, I think I argued for Palestinian Statehood.

And it is even more laughable (I lmao at that argument) to argue terrorism is a reason to deny statehood to a people.

(COMMENT)

I think I was stating that a State that fosters terrorism as a means for dispute resolution should be quarantined.

Now in other discussions, I challenged whether the Palestinians, as a collective culture, have the capacity to successfully exercise self-government. But that is another issue, separate and distinct.

Most Respectfully,
R

IF states that foster terrorism should be quarantined, then that should include both Israel and the US. PERSONS who call people and nations in foreign lands terrorists or terrorist states while ignoring the terrorism embraced by both Israel and the US are HYPOCRITES!

 

[sealadaigh]

reabhloideach, P F Tinmore; et al,

The object of a discussion group is to exchange ideas on any given subject.

hell, i may just pack up my tent and head to the CDZ. this forum really isn't getting much better.

(COMMENT)

Of course you can discontinue your participation, but that would not help me understand your particular POV or understand why you hold that view. I would rather you stay and continue to present your challenge from your frame of reference.

I see a benefit to your contributions. BTW, what is "CDZ?"

There is a lot of say so out there that is not based on fact. If you draw your conclusion on false premise, you will draw a false conclusion even if your information is otherwise correct.

(COMMENT)

Yes, this is an important aspect to any discussion. In most deductive arguments, this is true: A logical argument must be based on premises that are both sound (all premises are true) and valid (conclusion follows from the premises). Paul (in fact everyone) is quite correct to challenge conclusions and outcomes based on these concepts; if the argument is deductive in its construct. But there are other arguments that are not quite based on this standard.

Other types of arguments include:

• Inductive Argument
• Argument by Example
• Argument from Cause
• Argument from Testimony
• Argument from Narrative
• Argument from Ethos
• Argument From Sign
• Argument By Analogy

However, a difficulty sometimes comes into play in the interpretation of a fact (truth). This is particularly true when there is no absolute solution, or more than one solution. It is even made more ambiguous when truth becomes a series of successive approximations or has too many variables for a linear alignment. And this is the nature of this discussion (Israel and Palestine: Thoughts in this conflict?).

The idea of "misinformed" is an interpretational outcome of a conflict where "facts in evidence" are challenged because of associated variables.


(COMMENT)

To the question:

Had they adopted peaceful means of dispute resolution,...

Like what?

There are several types of dispute resolution options and quite a few different strategies that could have been applied in this scenario; most of which are more flexible and less expensive than a formal litigation.

From the least to the More Complex

• Negotiation
• Mediation
• Arbitration
• Mediation-Arbitration Combination
• Collaborative Law

Some will argue that this has been tried before (various conferences, the intervention of the Quartet, the UN, etc), yet this does not mean that the dispute, with all the interlocking variables, remains intractable; or that the affirmation of the duty of a state or people is nullified. The basic global standard and duty is still that the plaintiff (the Palestinians) "shall settle their disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered."

Now, does this mean that the Israeli doesn't have a standard or obligation? (Rhetorical) No! Both sides must enter into the process in good faith. They must both be willing to invent a solution that meets the others objectives. They both must be able to compromise and abandone that political architecture that promotes conflict with the other.

Most Respectfully,
R

my only particular point of view, and had you not parsed my post so severly, that point of view would have been more than clear, is that we should not stray so ridiculously far from the topic at hand.

go raibh ma agat agus slan go foill.

 

[Roudy]

Phew! Check this out folks, she just called the US terrorist. This is what happens when you hang around Muslims too long.
Sherri:

IF states that foster terrorism should be quarantined, then that should include both Israel and the US. PERSONS who call people and nations in foreign lands terrorists or terrorist states while ignoring the terrorism embraced by both Israel and the US are HYPOCRITES!

 

[MHunterB]

Phew! Check this out folks, she just called the US terrorist. This is what happens when you hang around Muslims too long.
Sherri:

IF states that foster terrorism should be quarantined, then that should include both Israel and the US. PERSONS who call people and nations in foreign lands terrorists or terrorist states while ignoring the terrorism embraced by both Israel and the US are HYPOCRITES!

Muslims had nothing to do with it, Roudy. It's simply a function of being a determined ideologue who's an enthusiast of 'counter-culture'. Georgie boy is another example: these folks are often failures socially or economically, and console themselves for said failure by attacking 'the system' and blaming mainstream American society. Sometimes it's a 'political' impetus, sometimes it's 'religious'..... it's less about any 'cause' than it is about the underlying agenda: tear down/apart US society, in hopes of attaining a better situation in the 'new order'.

It's nothing like 'liberal' - it's 'revolutionary'. Which can be read as really close to 'treason' : it's difficult to distinguish between the two. Especially when the 'revolutionaries' claim to be the 'true patriots'........

 

[irosie91]

Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn
And it is even more laughable (I lmao at that argument) to argue terrorism is a reason to deny statehood to a people.


Sherri makes an excellent point----denying statehood to a people
simply because they advocate terrorism-----is as silly as trying
to delegitamize the Mafia

 

[Hossfly]

SherriMunnerlyn; et al,

I don't think I ever implied this. In fact, I think I argued for Palestinian Statehood.

And it is even more laughable (I lmao at that argument) to argue terrorism is a reason to deny statehood to a people.

(COMMENT)

I think I was stating that a State that fosters terrorism as a means for dispute resolution should be quarantined.

Now in other discussions, I challenged whether the Palestinians, as a collective culture, have the capacity to successfully exercise self-government. But that is another issue, separate and distinct.

Most Respectfully,
R

IF states that foster terrorism should be quarantined, then that should include both Israel and the US. PERSONS who call people and nations in foreign lands terrorists or terrorist states while ignoring the terrorism embraced by both Israel and the US are HYPOCRITES!

One of the biggest hypocrites is you, Frau Sherri, since you want us to believe that you are a "good Christian woman," but instead of being even on one forum condemning what your Muslim friends are doing to the Christians in the Muslim world, all you do is run around the Internet bashing Israel and the Jews. Do you ever read the news about what is happening to your fellow Christians or don't you care?

 

[toastman]

SherriMunnerlyn; et al,

I don't think I ever implied this. In fact, I think I argued for Palestinian Statehood.


(COMMENT)

I think I was stating that a State that fosters terrorism as a means for dispute resolution should be quarantined.

Now in other discussions, I challenged whether the Palestinians, as a collective culture, have the capacity to successfully exercise self-government. But that is another issue, separate and distinct.

Most Respectfully,
R

IF states that foster terrorism should be quarantined, then that should include both Israel and the US. PERSONS who call people and nations in foreign lands terrorists or terrorist states while ignoring the terrorism embraced by both Israel and the US are HYPOCRITES!

One of the biggest hypocrites is you, Frau Sherri, since you want us to believe that you are a "good Christian woman," but instead of being even on one forum condemning what your Muslim friends are doing to the Christians in the Muslim world, all you do is run around the Internet bashing Israel and the Jews. Do you ever read the news about what is happening to your fellow Christians or don't you care?

She doesn't care because the Jooooos aren't involved

 

[tinydancer]

It does but it does not turn foreigners into natives.

Yet Rule of Law and Due Process does make them Citizens. You do realize that both camps at the least, include descendants of Abraham, right?

That is true. Palestine has always been inhabited by many different people. There is no historic precedence for an exclusive Jewish state.

Why can't we get there from here. I mean it with all my heart.

Is this not stupid? Palestine gets X Israel gets X. Just do it. How crazy is this? I didn't understand it when he wouldn't give it under Clinton. I don't understand any of it now.

I don't get it.