Have you any idea how many times you’ve contradicted yourself?
But then again scripture continually contraditicts itself and not all the biblical apologetics dating back centuries can prove otherwise so don’t bother trying with me.
The Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord
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But then again scripture continually contraditicts itself and not all the biblical apologetics dating back centuries can prove otherwise so don’t bother trying with me.
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- #22
Regarding the 2nd seal, this is what John saw:
Revelation 6:3-4
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
John sees a red horse whose rider was given power to take peace from the earth. He saw the people of the earth kill one another and to the rider was given a great sword. This seal covered the second thousand year period of the earth's temporal existence. This takes us through the era of the days of Noah when the earth was filled with violence. The great sword given to the rider was probably that of the flood.
Genesis 6:10-13
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Is it any wonder that the color of this horse was red. All manner of wickedness existed during the days of Noah and murders were common. This lead to the flood which God used to destroy the wicked and baptize the earth.
Revelation 6:3-4
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
John sees a red horse whose rider was given power to take peace from the earth. He saw the people of the earth kill one another and to the rider was given a great sword. This seal covered the second thousand year period of the earth's temporal existence. This takes us through the era of the days of Noah when the earth was filled with violence. The great sword given to the rider was probably that of the flood.
Genesis 6:10-13
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Is it any wonder that the color of this horse was red. All manner of wickedness existed during the days of Noah and murders were common. This lead to the flood which God used to destroy the wicked and baptize the earth.
edthecynic
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Not quite! John dies AD98.
Here are the verses you left out before the part you misquoted as being about John, you do know that it was not the apostle John who betrayed Jesus;
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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Actually, I did not contradict myself, I contradicted your assumptions about omniscience. We humans often tie ourselves in knots in our attempts to explain who and what God is. Instead of humbly recognizing God is beyond our ken, we try to explain who/what He is in ways people might understand. Those who have no belief twist these well-intended attempts into foolishness. The Bible requires in depth, thoughtful study to understand any perceived contradiction.
edthecynic
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Speaking of the book of Revelation, This is my favorite revelation:
Rev 22: 16 I, Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
KJV - Lucifer 1; 1
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
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- #26
The incident spoken of in the verses you quoted are found in John 13:
John 13:21-27
21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus’ breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
It was not Peter who was leaning on Jesus' bossom because according to verse 24 above, Peter beckoned to the one leaning on Jesus' bossom to ask Jesus who it is that will betray him. Jesus tell the one who is leaning on his bossom that he will dip a sop and the one he gives it to will be the one who betray's him. He gave the dipped sop to Judas Iscariot. Judas was not the one who was leaning on Jesus' breast. Who was the disciple leaning on Jesus' breast? It was none other than John the Apostle.
John often spoke of himself in his own gospel as the disciple whom Jesus loved. Here is an example:
John 21:1-7
1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
(as a note, the sons of Zebedee are James and John)
3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher’s coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
Judas was not among these group of disciples. Yet John speaks of the disciple whom Jesus loved. It certainly wasn't Judas whom he spake of. It was John himself.
John did not die in 98 AD. That is speculation.
Here is another example of John referring to himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved:
John 20:1-10
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
It certainly wasn't Judas who ran with Peter to the sepulchre.
And it’s called biblical apologetics.
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- #28
Lucifer is not the offspring of David. He has no way of being born among the children of God with a physical body. This one thing that Satan (Lucifer) has no power to do. He cannot make himself to have a physical body. He and his angels will often attempt to possess the bodies of those who have them but they cannot have one of their own. Thus he could never be of the lineage of David.
Lucifer was a morning star. There were many before the foundation of the earth.
Job 38:1-7
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Lucifer was a son of the morning. But he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven into the earth.
Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Revelation 12:7-10
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Before Lucifer fell from heaven he was among the morning stars of heaven. But he wasn't Jesus. Jesus was the brightest of the bright and morning stars.
edthecynic
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Ahhhh, the dumb act!
The verse does NOT say that Satan is the offspring of David, but you knew that already, it says JESUS is the offspring of Satan/Lucifer (the morning star) and the House Of David (through Mary).
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- #30
Regarding the 3rd seal, this is what John saw:
Revelation 6:5-6
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
John sees a black horse and the rider holding a pair of balances. John then hears a voice in the midst of the four beasts of his entire vision say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Obviously the balances are for measuring food. This 3rd seal covers the era when we see Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Moses and all the way down to the time of King David. During this time there were many famines and death. Joseph stored up grain for 7 years and many came to Egypt to buy food. Even his father and brothers. The black horse is possibly a representation of the famines and death of that era.
Revelation 6:5-6
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
John sees a black horse and the rider holding a pair of balances. John then hears a voice in the midst of the four beasts of his entire vision say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Obviously the balances are for measuring food. This 3rd seal covers the era when we see Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Moses and all the way down to the time of King David. During this time there were many famines and death. Joseph stored up grain for 7 years and many came to Egypt to buy food. Even his father and brothers. The black horse is possibly a representation of the famines and death of that era.
- Thread starter
- #31
In the verse you quoted, which is:
Revelation 22:16
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
This verse has Jesus declaring that he is the root and offspring of David. I was simply telling you that Lucifer could never be the offspring of David because he does not have the power to take on a body. Thus Lucifer cannot be Jesus because Jesus did take on a body and was of the offspring of David. So Jesus does not equal Lucifer.
My next comment was to let you known that there is not just 1 morning star but according to Job 38 there were many morning stars who sang together. Thus you cannot conclude that Jesus = Lucifer in that way either. Lucifer started out as a morning star but rebelled against God the Father and Jesus Christ and was cast out of heaven for his rebellion.
So I don't know what you are trying to make of the verse, but it in no way is saying that God the Father or Jesus are Lucifer. That is either deception or plain simple ignorance of the scriptures.
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- #32
Regarding the 4th seal, this is what John saw:
Revelation 6:7-8
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
John sees a pale horse and the rider who sat upon him was named Death, and hell followed with him. The rider is given power to kill with the sword, hunger, death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The 4th seal covers the time from King Solomon to the end of the life of Christ. This era covers the time of the great beasts mentioned in Daniel who were the Babylonians, Medes and Persians, Greeks and Macedonians, and part of the time of the Romans. Much death was caused by these beasts of the earth and with sword, hunger and death.
Revelation 6:7-8
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
John sees a pale horse and the rider who sat upon him was named Death, and hell followed with him. The rider is given power to kill with the sword, hunger, death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The 4th seal covers the time from King Solomon to the end of the life of Christ. This era covers the time of the great beasts mentioned in Daniel who were the Babylonians, Medes and Persians, Greeks and Macedonians, and part of the time of the Romans. Much death was caused by these beasts of the earth and with sword, hunger and death.
edthecynic
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And there you go again with the dumb act deflection now pretending the verse says Jesus IS Lucifer/Satan to avoid the verse clearly saying Jesus is the SON/offspring of Satan/Lucifer and the House Of David.
SweetSue92
Diamond Member
IMO there is no need to argue specifics with unbelievers about the Second Coming of Christ. The first coming was prophesied and came true. The Second Coming is right at the door. Everyone who has any kind of "feelers" can know this is true--it is why apocalyptic movies and books are so very popular right now.
Our job is simply to state this is true and is coming, just as unbelievers fear.
Everyone: this is true and it is coming. As former atheist C.S. Lewis said, this is your time for choosing. When the Appearing happens that time will be over. You will not then be given a choice.
Choose wisely. Now.
Our job is simply to state this is true and is coming, just as unbelievers fear.
Everyone: this is true and it is coming. As former atheist C.S. Lewis said, this is your time for choosing. When the Appearing happens that time will be over. You will not then be given a choice.
Choose wisely. Now.
beagle9
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In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads: "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you".
Is onefour1 doing this very thing ?
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
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Rightly so. Apologetics is not a form of apology. Rather it defends what is written in the Bible from those who wish to change or misinterpret its original intent and meaning. Therefore, when I saw that you had taken a verse in the Bible that notes that God knows His own plan from start to finish, and then changed it into 'omniscience', and then redefined omniscience to include things that are impossible to know, I simply pointed back to what the Bible actually said. Apologetics, meaning to defend and prove the Bible and its original meanings and intent.
Now, if you want to use apologize in the other way it is defined, you could now apologize for changing the meaning or the original Bible passage!
The saying was based on the belief that there was a generation of darkness that would be followed by a generation of light, the Messianic age. At the time people thought the end of the age of darkness and the inauguration of Gods kingdom on earth was imminent. Jesus said that " the end" was a long time off, and they laughed him to scorn because everyone worth a shekel knew that God was about to fart angels out of the sky to destroy the roman invaders.
The generation that shall not pass away until everything he said was fulfilled, the destruction of the temple, the diaspora, the gospel being preached around the world, many false prophets, the antichrist, wars, persecutions, the ingathering etc., , is the generation of darkness.
The very same form of Judaism that claims to be the ultimate orthodox authority on divine law based on the teachings of theTalmud, what Jesus called the traditions of men, is the generation of darkness, a generation of error that Jesus said would live to see it all including his return.
And guess what! They are still teaching their children that the subject of Kosher law is about what a person does or does not eat for meals and that Jesus was a false prophet.
imagine that!
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norwegen
Diamond Member
Maybe you should qualify this sentiment for the Gnostics and kooks among us. Say, with Matthew 16:28, for example:
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
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- #39
Regarding the 5th seal, this is what John saw:
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
John sees the souls of them who were slain for the word of God. After Jesus was slain for the sins of the world and ascended into heaven, His Apostles were sent into all the world to preach the gospel. All the remaining Apostles, except John, were tortured and murdered for the word of God. Many of the members of Christ's church were killed. Here John sees that they seek to have their blood avenged but are told they must rest for a little season until their fellowservants and their brethren should be killed as they were.
The 5th seal covers the time from the end of the life of Christ up to approximately 1033 A.D. This era covers the time of the martyrdom of Christ's Apostles and many of the true believers in his gospel. This verse also mentions a future persecution of the saints of God and how they too will be killed in a like manner. One verse comes to mind when I think of this.
Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
John sees the souls of them who were slain for the word of God. After Jesus was slain for the sins of the world and ascended into heaven, His Apostles were sent into all the world to preach the gospel. All the remaining Apostles, except John, were tortured and murdered for the word of God. Many of the members of Christ's church were killed. Here John sees that they seek to have their blood avenged but are told they must rest for a little season until their fellowservants and their brethren should be killed as they were.
The 5th seal covers the time from the end of the life of Christ up to approximately 1033 A.D. This era covers the time of the martyrdom of Christ's Apostles and many of the true believers in his gospel. This verse also mentions a future persecution of the saints of God and how they too will be killed in a like manner. One verse comes to mind when I think of this.
Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
norwegen
Diamond Member
Christ came again.
The Apostle John died.
The disciples' generation is long dead.
It's over.
The Apostle John died.
The disciples' generation is long dead.
It's over.
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