The Good Narrative Sure Has Shifted in the Last Three Days

[justoffal]

What was that fat moron doing standing in front of a car anyways? You may be surprised to learn this was revealed as a tactic used by Border Patrol to justify murdering people in an investigation years ago:

US Border Agents Intentionally Stepped in Front of Moving Vehicles to Justify Shooting at Them

An internal review of the US Border Patrol raises serious questions about the agency’s use-of-force policy.

www.thenation.com

It doesn't matter pedestrians always come first in a traffic situation..... Unless the law specifically States that the driver is not responsible for the contact because The pedestrian is purposely breaking the law by blocking the street. Good luck proving that the ice agent was breaking the law by doing what he was doing. It ain't never going to happen.

 

[berg80]

Good luck proving that the ice agent was breaking the law by doing what he was doing.

See post #298.

 

[berg80]

Is it too much to ask that people stop interfering with law enforcement officers while they do their jobs?


Irrelevant. What she did was unlawful whether it prevented anyone from getting down the street or not.

There's a reason that street is a two-lane one way - to accommodate the volume of traffic that normally passes through there. By the same token, there's a reason she blocked one of those lanes.


So why did she specifically choose to block a lane?


There were many options she had to prevent the kind of escalation that occurred.

You said the encounter was "was wholly by choice." That's true. But their intention in encountering her was only to ask her to leave or get out of the vehicle. That's it. Their choice to confront her is not what escalated the situation. Her refusal to comply with their commands and then panicking and trying to flee is what escalated the situation.


Sure, after she hit one of them with her vehicle.

If the shooting was justified, is that the officer's fault?

Good did not deserve to die over this but her actions were stupid and reckless and that's what got her killed.

Assume, just as a thought experiment, that ICE was properly enforcing either state traffic regulations or federal law, and the question still remains whether they acted in a manner that comports with their own internal policies. The agency’s Employee Code of Conduct §5.4 mandates that “ICE employees must be professional, polite, respectful, and patient in all official activities that involve contact with…members of the public, even in the face of considerable provocation.” It is difficult to understand how yelling at a woman to “get out of the ******* car” when she is not acting violent, or calling her a “******* *****,” after shooting at her three times, would comport with this rule. ICE’s own disciplinary guidance mandates suspensions for “using rude, impolite, discourteous, unprofessional, obscene…or similarly inappropriate language, gestures, or conduct…to members of the public.” Making improper comments during operations is similarly prohibited and punishable under the guidance. It might be a small violation, not particularly important for the larger issues at play here, but it is a data point, nonetheless.

But let’s put aside this argument, too, for the moment.

Assume, just as a thought experiment, that ICE was properly enforcing either state traffic regulations or federal law and operating pursuant to its own professional guidelines. The question still remains whether they appropriately de-escalated the situation before resorting to force. ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons himself recently noted, in an Associated Press feature, that “n any type of law enforcement situation you’d rather de-escalate with words before you have to use any use of force.” The agency’s head firearms instructor promised that “[w]e do our very best to make sure that even though they’re in that [dangerous] environment, that they have the wherewithal to make the proper decision. Nobody wants to be the one to make a bad shot…” But none of the footage thus far released, by bystanders or the agency, reveals any moment in which any of the officers tried to defuse the situation without violence. Ross spent an inordinate amount of time videotaping his interaction with Good on his cellphone, and at no point in his own recording does he attempt to calm the situation or even betray any sense of his own self-possession. The officers who come to assist him do not interact with Good at all, except to run towards her vehicle while shouting “Get out of the car. Get out of the ******* car,” before trying to forcibly open her door.

Ross is guilty of manslaughter.

 

[justoffal]

Not only is that a ludicrous assertion, ICE agents didn't have the authority to do what they did.

Why was ICE interacting with Good in the first place?

The question isn’t rhetorical. Video footage shows that she was clearly—at least for a few moments, if not longer—blocking traffic by positioning her car in the middle of the road; furthermore, she was doing so while in the presence of law enforcement vehicles with lights and sirens activated. Such behavior would appear to be a prima facie violation of Minnesota Statute 169.20 §5, a misdemeanor punishable by a $300 fine, and perhaps diversion to a remedial driving school. If a peace officer with the appropriate authority ordered her to move, and she chose not to comply, she also may have been violating Minnesota Statute 169.34 §1(11).

But much of the analysis actually hinges on the phrase “peace officer.” Not all law enforcement agencies are authorized to enforce all statutes; generally speaking, state and local departments enforce state and local laws, while federal officers and agents enforce federal laws and constitutional violations. States can provide exceptions to this general rule by enacting an enabling law granting federal officials the authority to enforce state laws, which confers peace officer status.

Minnesota defines a peace officer as “an employee of a political subdivision [i.e. a local municipality] or state law enforcement agency,” and only grants their federal counterparts arrest authorities for the purposes of state and local violations when a number of conditions are met. The most important of these prerequisites requires that the federal officer be on duty, acting at the request of a local or state officer, and operating pursuant to the supervision of that local or state officer. At this point, neither ICE management nor any executive branch officials have argued that these conditions were met; indeed, the tenor and tone of statements by the Minneapolis mayor and Minnesota governor would certainly suggest otherwise. The proper remedy, then, for Good’s obstruction of traffic would have simply been for the ICE officers to request that local police join in the response and facilitate the movement of her vehicle.

Before and After the Trigger Press That Killed Renee Good

Regardless of whether deadly force was legally justified, Renee Nicole Good’s death was preventable.

www.lawfaremedia.org

Bingo

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Well, I do give a shit.

And I don't care that you do.

I give a shit if I have to pay higher taxes in Cook County because they are holding hundreds of undocumented people they can't (and shouldn't) deport because ICE doesn't have any intent to deport them in the next week.

I don't care.

I give a shit if the Cook County Sheriff has to release a dangerous citizen gang-banger to hold onto an undocumented immigrant for ICE.

I don't care.

He didn't stab 30 people.

I didn't say he stabbed thirty people, dumbass. I said he was arrested thirty times.

He maybe stabbed two people, for which he went to jail. It was up to ICE/CBP to make sure they picked him up after he was released, or better yet, do the legal stuff to have him deported while he was in jail.

He wasn't supposed to be released, that's the point.

Now he'll probably never be deported, because he'll spend a lifetime in prison. But don't worry, ICE can go after some college students or preschoolers.

Are they here illegally?

These people made their choices knowing full well that deportation was a possibility, even those with preschool children.

And racists like you will get your rocks off when they do

I get my rocks off watching you virtue signal and pretending you care about these people. Your regard for Hispanics only goes as far as your garden and swimming pool.

 

[JoeB131]

I get my rocks off watching you virtue signal and pretending you care about these people. Your regard for Hispanics only goes as far as your garden and swimming pool.

Yes, you do spend a lot of time fantasizing about me? How long were you following me around hoping I'd pay attention to you?

I don't have a garden or a swimming pool.

What I do have is a wife who is an immigrant, and a father who was an immigrant.

And a good enough understanding of history to know that demonizing "the other" never ends well.

 

[Lockback]

Well, I do give a shit.

I give a shit if I have to pay higher taxes in Cook County because they are holding hundreds of undocumented people they can't (and shouldn't) deport because ICE doesn't have any intent to deport them in the next week.

I give a shit if the Cook County Sheriff has to release a dangerous citizen gang-banger to hold onto an undocumented immigrant for ICE.

He didn't stab 30 people. He maybe stabbed two people, for which he went to jail. It was up to ICE/CBP to make sure they picked him up after he was released, or better yet, do the legal stuff to have him deported while he was in jail.

Now he'll probably never be deported, because he'll spend a lifetime in prison. But don't worry, ICE can go after some college students or preschoolers. And racists like you will get your rocks off when they do

What a warped world view you have living in that grossly overpriced, far left shit hole.

 

[berg80]

And a good enough understanding of history to know that demonizing "the other" never ends well.

I suppose that depends on why one does it. It ended well for trump. He got elected by bringing to the surface a wellspring of hatred, fear, and bigotry. Now the country is paying an enormous price.

 

[Lisa558]

I suppose that depends on why one does it. It ended well for trump. He got elected by bringing to the surface a wellspring of hatred, fear, and bigotry. Now the country is paying an enormous price.

He got elected because:

1) the illegal alien swarm was out of control under the Dems, and Americans wanted it halted

2) the Dems put up a totally unqualified idiot as his opponent

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Not only is that a ludicrous assertion, ICE agents didn't have the authority to do what they did.

What, ask her to leave?

Why was ICE interacting with Good in the first place?

The question isn’t rhetorical. Video footage shows that she was clearly—at least for a few moments, if not longer—blocking traffic by positioning her car in the middle of the road; furthermore, she was doing so while in the presence of law enforcement vehicles with lights and sirens activated. Such behavior would appear to be a prima facie violation of Minnesota Statute 169.20 §5, a misdemeanor punishable by a $300 fine, and perhaps diversion to a remedial driving school. If a peace officer with the appropriate authority ordered her to move, and she chose not to comply, she also may have been violating Minnesota Statute 169.34 §1(11).

If we're going to do an in-depth legal analysis then you can't decide to be in-depth about the legalities but not about the facts and details of the incident. Good was parked there blasting her horn for almost four minutes. This is decidedly more than "a few moments".

But much of the analysis actually hinges on the phrase “peace officer.” Not all law enforcement agencies are authorized to enforce all statutes; generally speaking, state and local departments enforce state and local laws, while federal officers and agents enforce federal laws and constitutional violations. States can provide exceptions to this general rule by enacting an enabling law granting federal officials the authority to enforce state laws, which confers peace officer status.

Minnesota defines a peace officer as “an employee of a political subdivision [i.e. a local municipality] or state law enforcement agency,” and only grants their federal counterparts arrest authorities for the purposes of state and local violations when a number of conditions are met. The most important of these prerequisites requires that the federal officer be on duty, acting at the request of a local or state officer, and operating pursuant to the supervision of that local or state officer. At this point, neither ICE management nor any executive branch officials have argued that these conditions were met; indeed, the tenor and tone of statements by the Minneapolis mayor and Minnesota governor would certainly suggest otherwise. The proper remedy, then, for Good’s obstruction of traffic would have simply been for the ICE officers to request that local police join in the response and facilitate the movement of her vehicle.

Before and After the Trigger Press That Killed Renee Good

Regardless of whether deadly force was legally justified, Renee Nicole Good’s death was preventable.

www.lawfaremedia.org

All I can say to this is, if this is true, is ICE aware of it? If not, inform them. If so then it adds a wrinkle that ICE will have to contend with.

 

[berg80]

He got elected because:

1) the illegal alien swarm was out of control under the Dems, and Americans wanted it halted

2) the Dems put up a totally unqualified idiot as his opponent

He got elected because voters apparently forgot he is a convicted criminal, that he tried to steal the 2020 election, that he stole classified documents, that he is a serial sexual abuser, that he stole money from a charity, that he botched the government response to COVID, and because right wing propaganda was successful in getting people to falsely believe Biden/Harris were solely responsible for inflation.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

He got elected because voters apparently forgot he is a convicted criminal, that he tried to steal the 2020 election, that he stole classified documents, that he is a serial sexual abuser, that he stole money from a charity, that he botched the government response to COVID, and because right wing propaganda was successful in getting people to falsely believe Biden/Harris were solely responsible for inflation.

Don't forget, he beat the most qualified candidate in history, the first time he ran for office.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Assume, just as a thought experiment, that ICE was properly enforcing either state traffic regulations or federal law, and the question still remains whether they acted in a manner that comports with their own internal policies. The agency’s Employee Code of Conduct §5.4 mandates that “ICE employees must be professional, polite, respectful, and patient in all official activities that involve contact with…members of the public, even in the face of considerable provocation.” It is difficult to understand how yelling at a woman to “get out of the ******* car” when she is not acting violent, or calling her a “******* *****,” after shooting at her three times, would comport with this rule. ICE’s own disciplinary guidance mandates suspensions for “using rude, impolite, discourteous, unprofessional, obscene…or similarly inappropriate language, gestures, or conduct…to members of the public.” Making improper comments during operations is similarly prohibited and punishable under the guidance. It might be a small violation, not particularly important for the larger issues at play here, but it is a data point, nonetheless.

I'm not sure this is relevant. First of all, it has nothing to do with why the officer fired and secondly, I'm betting that even if their language and approach was more matter-of-fact - ("Would you please exit the vehicle, Ma'am?") - Good probably still would not have complied.

But let’s put aside this argument, too, for the moment.

Assume, just as a thought experiment, that ICE was properly enforcing either state traffic regulations or federal law and operating pursuant to its own professional guidelines. The question still remains whether they appropriately de-escalated the situation before resorting to force. ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons himself recently noted, in an Associated Press feature, that “n any type of law enforcement situation you’d rather de-escalate with words before you have to use any use of force.” The agency’s head firearms instructor promised that “[w]e do our very best to make sure that even though they’re in that [dangerous] environment, that they have the wherewithal to make the proper decision. Nobody wants to be the one to make a bad shot…” But none of the footage thus far released, by bystanders or the agency, reveals any moment in which any of the officers tried to defuse the situation without violence. Ross spent an inordinate amount of time videotaping his interaction with Good on his cellphone, and at no point in his own recording does he attempt to calm the situation or even betray any sense of his own self-possession. The officers who come to assist him do not interact with Good at all, except to run towards her vehicle while shouting “Get out of the car. Get out of the ******* car,” before trying to forcibly open her door.

Ross is guilty of manslaughter.

Bullshit. The aspect of law enforcement officers expected to de-escalate is fine as far as that goes and is a smart approach. But Good panicking and striking the officer is really what escalated the situation. And let's not forget that her being there, parked illegally and blasting her horn, was for the express purpose of agitating the officers.

She achieved her goal of agitating the officers and then made the mistake of panicking and trying to flee. In her panic, she accidently struck an officer with her vehicle and the inevitable happens.

For any and all fault or blame attributable to the officers, she played a dangerous game and she lost.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Yes, you do spend a lot of time fantasizing about me?

After you supposedly put me on ignore, I forgot all about you.

How long were you following me around hoping I'd pay attention to you?

How long were you following me around before you decided to take me off ignore? Not to mention the fact that if you had me on ignore you wouldn't even have been able to see my posts in the first place.

I don't have a garden or a swimming pool.

It was rhetorical, dumbass.

What I do have is a wife who is an immigrant, and a father who was an immigrant.

Are they here legally? If so, good for them. Welcome to America.

And a good enough understanding of history to know that demonizing "the other" never ends well.

Who have I demonized?