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When your numbers are off by an order of magnitude? Someone as intelligent as me would call bullshit and demand sources. Which I did.
And even after correcting for your 'typo', your numbers are way, way off:
That's 13,000. Not 20,000. You're off by about a third.
And its a meager increase of 5% over Bush's pace. With some of the regulations credited to Obama quite possibly late term Bush era changes.
I suspect the Hill could be off a bit too, but even if they aren't, what is the issue here? Whether somebody writing extemporaneously didn't get the numbers exactly right? Or whether the numbers, whatever they are, are crushing private enterprise under a mountain of rules, regulations and paperwork that nobody can realistically expect to understand or comply with it all? And one law or regulation can contain hundreds of pages of rules to comply with it, so the actual number isn't as important as the actual effect.
But who says that regulations are 'crushing private enterprise under a mountain of rules'? You're assuming your foundational claim, with the evidence cited to support it being off by an order of magnitude.
Well as a former business owner I say it. And anybody who objectively reads the arguments, testimonies, and research done into the subject say it. But I tell you what. Why don't you read the 51 plus volumes containing the U.S. code (laws passed by Congress), all the case law resulting from the laws in those 51 plus volumes, and the however many volumes of regulations have been published every year for many many decades by the various divisions of government, and decide for yourself?
And as a business owner who is being crushed out of existence by regulation.....how do you explain record employment, the largest economy in US history, and an expanding manufacturing sector?
I don't think 'crushed' means what you think it means. As objectively, our economy is growing. And commerce is everywhere.
We have more able bodied workers out of the work force than has existed since the Carter Administration. Labor force participation was 67.2% in early April this year--that means that 1/3rd of Americans who should be or otherwise would be working are not working.
Indeed. And the point remains. I (personally) believe that Obama set out to strangle business. What other conclusion can one come to? The fact remains - business is refusing to do much of anything in America except collect profits. Not all business, of course, but most major manufactures are more than willing to remain off shore - some even moving their corporate headquarters to a more "business friendly" country. I don't question their patriotism - I question their motives.
Question the motives of the businesses? Why? Why in the world would somebody want to do business with severely limited profits, limited ability to expand, limited ability to be innovative, and where he/she will be punished for success, if they can escape all that by doing business elsewhere? Why should such a motive even be questioned? It is what it is.
Do any of us volunteer our labor to our employer just because the employer wants it? No. The huge majority of us expect to be paid as agree for our labor, our skill sets, our work ethic, our ability to make profits for our employer.
Do any of us, as a matter of policy, hire people for no other reason than the person needs a job? I suspect many of us have done that once or twice just to help somebody out, but nobody can stay in business for long unless their labor force overall generates substantially more profits than what they cost us in business expense.
The profit motive is the ONLY reason to engage in commerce and industry at all whether it is a barter system to get what we want and need or monetary profits so that we can buy what we want and need.
"Silly greedy talk" as Walter Williams once put it, is the idea that business is greedy if their activities are strictly self serving and not altruistic. But as Adam Smith famously said: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
It is all of us going about our daily lives and doing what we need to do to put dinner on our table, and in so doing we help everybody else put dinner on their own table, that is what capitalism is. What makes it work. What makes it the system that generates the most prosperity for the most people and provides opportunity for just about everybody. It is the best 'welfare' system in the world.
Well, obviously this is where you and I disagree. Indeed, I question their motives. Nearly ALL of the companies who have moved their operations offshore have done so for profit - with no concern whatsoever - about their own country. I am absolutely in favor of profit. I am a staunch capitalist, always have been. But my country trumps profit - much as it did during World War II. Business didn't have to drop what they were doing and help the war effort, did they? Yet they did. American citizens didn't have to engage in voluntary rationing, but they did it. Business was more than willing to re-tool factories to help the war effort - profit be damned. And, when the war was over - we went crazy with building, buying, selling and moving up. And we never looked back.
This country, if not worse off that it was in that war, is nearly as bad. The major difference that I see now? A generation coming up that is without hope. To me, that is the most destructive thing this country could be facing. Sure, the operative word nowadays is "adapt". Sorry, but not everyone in the country can be an IT Engineer or a CEO. Doesn't work that way.
Well, if you equate patriotism with taking fewer profits due to a government who does its damndest to limit those profits and/or take whatever it wants from you on the theory it will spend your money more wisely and effectively than you will, then of course you will continue to do business here as a noble thing.
So business is less profitable....due to patriotism? Is this one of those 'I'm a business owner, so trust me' scenarios? Or can you actually back up your claims with objective evidence?
Because so far this is sounding shockingly subjective and emotion based.
I was in a service business that could not do business by operating elsewhere. But if I had been in manufacturing with the oppressive, self-serving, anti-business, authoritarian government that we have now?
You do realize that our manufacturing sector is expanding, right? And that we have the largest manufacturing output on this planet...by a fairly large margin?
More than China. More than Japan. More than the entire EU. More than China, Germany and France *combined*?
May I suggest that you grossly overstating your case.
Okay...prove it. * here come the links from MSNBC......
Indeed. And the point remains. I (personally) believe that Obama set out to strangle business. What other conclusion can one come to? The fact remains - business is refusing to do much of anything in America except collect profits. Not all business, of course, but most major manufactures are more than willing to remain off shore - some even moving their corporate headquarters to a more "business friendly" country. I don't question their patriotism - I question their motives.
Question the motives of the businesses? Why? Why in the world would somebody want to do business with severely limited profits, limited ability to expand, limited ability to be innovative, and where he/she will be punished for success, if they can escape all that by doing business elsewhere? Why should such a motive even be questioned? It is what it is.
Do any of us volunteer our labor to our employer just because the employer wants it? No. The huge majority of us expect to be paid as agree for our labor, our skill sets, our work ethic, our ability to make profits for our employer.
Do any of us, as a matter of policy, hire people for no other reason than the person needs a job? I suspect many of us have done that once or twice just to help somebody out, but nobody can stay in business for long unless their labor force overall generates substantially more profits than what they cost us in business expense.
The profit motive is the ONLY reason to engage in commerce and industry at all whether it is a barter system to get what we want and need or monetary profits so that we can buy what we want and need.
"Silly greedy talk" as Walter Williams once put it, is the idea that business is greedy if their activities are strictly self serving and not altruistic. But as Adam Smith famously said: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
It is all of us going about our daily lives and doing what we need to do to put dinner on our table, and in so doing we help everybody else put dinner on their own table, that is what capitalism is. What makes it work. What makes it the system that generates the most prosperity for the most people and provides opportunity for just about everybody. It is the best 'welfare' system in the world.
Well, obviously this is where you and I disagree. Indeed, I question their motives. Nearly ALL of the companies who have moved their operations offshore have done so for profit - with no concern whatsoever - about their own country. I am absolutely in favor of profit. I am a staunch capitalist, always have been. But my country trumps profit - much as it did during World War II. Business didn't have to drop what they were doing and help the war effort, did they? Yet they did. American citizens didn't have to engage in voluntary rationing, but they did it. Business was more than willing to re-tool factories to help the war effort - profit be damned. And, when the war was over - we went crazy with building, buying, selling and moving up. And we never looked back.
This country, if not worse off that it was in that war, is nearly as bad. The major difference that I see now? A generation coming up that is without hope. To me, that is the most destructive thing this country could be facing. Sure, the operative word nowadays is "adapt". Sorry, but not everyone in the country can be an IT Engineer or a CEO. Doesn't work that way.
Well, if you equate patriotism with taking fewer profits due to a government who does its damndest to limit those profits and/or take whatever it wants from you on the theory it will spend your money more wisely and effectively than you will, then of course you will continue to do business here as a noble thing.
So business is less profitable....due to patriotism? Is this one of those 'I'm a business owner, so trust me' scenarios? Or can you actually back up your claims with objective evidence?
Because so far this is sounding shockingly subjective and emotion based.
I was in a service business that could not do business by operating elsewhere. But if I had been in manufacturing with the oppressive, self-serving, anti-business, authoritarian government that we have now?
You do realize that our manufacturing sector is expanding, right? And that we have the largest manufacturing output on this planet...by a fairly large margin?
More than China. More than Japan. More than the entire EU. More than China, Germany and France *combined*?
May I suggest that you grossly overstating your case.
Sounds like a typical leftist. Were it not for business during World War II - we would all be speaking German now. We won because we out manufactured the Axis powers. Damn - I thought you were intelligent?
Question the motives of the businesses? Why? Why in the world would somebody want to do business with severely limited profits, limited ability to expand, limited ability to be innovative, and where he/she will be punished for success, if they can escape all that by doing business elsewhere? Why should such a motive even be questioned? It is what it is.
Do any of us volunteer our labor to our employer just because the employer wants it? No. The huge majority of us expect to be paid as agree for our labor, our skill sets, our work ethic, our ability to make profits for our employer.
Do any of us, as a matter of policy, hire people for no other reason than the person needs a job? I suspect many of us have done that once or twice just to help somebody out, but nobody can stay in business for long unless their labor force overall generates substantially more profits than what they cost us in business expense.
The profit motive is the ONLY reason to engage in commerce and industry at all whether it is a barter system to get what we want and need or monetary profits so that we can buy what we want and need.
"Silly greedy talk" as Walter Williams once put it, is the idea that business is greedy if their activities are strictly self serving and not altruistic. But as Adam Smith famously said: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
It is all of us going about our daily lives and doing what we need to do to put dinner on our table, and in so doing we help everybody else put dinner on their own table, that is what capitalism is. What makes it work. What makes it the system that generates the most prosperity for the most people and provides opportunity for just about everybody. It is the best 'welfare' system in the world.
Well, obviously this is where you and I disagree. Indeed, I question their motives. Nearly ALL of the companies who have moved their operations offshore have done so for profit - with no concern whatsoever - about their own country. I am absolutely in favor of profit. I am a staunch capitalist, always have been. But my country trumps profit - much as it did during World War II. Business didn't have to drop what they were doing and help the war effort, did they? Yet they did. American citizens didn't have to engage in voluntary rationing, but they did it. Business was more than willing to re-tool factories to help the war effort - profit be damned. And, when the war was over - we went crazy with building, buying, selling and moving up. And we never looked back.
This country, if not worse off that it was in that war, is nearly as bad. The major difference that I see now? A generation coming up that is without hope. To me, that is the most destructive thing this country could be facing. Sure, the operative word nowadays is "adapt". Sorry, but not everyone in the country can be an IT Engineer or a CEO. Doesn't work that way.
Well, if you equate patriotism with taking fewer profits due to a government who does its damndest to limit those profits and/or take whatever it wants from you on the theory it will spend your money more wisely and effectively than you will, then of course you will continue to do business here as a noble thing.
So business is less profitable....due to patriotism? Is this one of those 'I'm a business owner, so trust me' scenarios? Or can you actually back up your claims with objective evidence?
Because so far this is sounding shockingly subjective and emotion based.
I was in a service business that could not do business by operating elsewhere. But if I had been in manufacturing with the oppressive, self-serving, anti-business, authoritarian government that we have now?
You do realize that our manufacturing sector is expanding, right? And that we have the largest manufacturing output on this planet...by a fairly large margin?
More than China. More than Japan. More than the entire EU. More than China, Germany and France *combined*?
May I suggest that you grossly overstating your case.
Okay...prove it. * here come the links from MSNBC......
Nope. Not that I think it will matter. You seem to be justifying why you ignored the source before its even offered. Which doesn't bode well for its utility in convincing you.
Countries Compared by Industry Manufacturing output. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
Well, obviously this is where you and I disagree. Indeed, I question their motives. Nearly ALL of the companies who have moved their operations offshore have done so for profit - with no concern whatsoever - about their own country. I am absolutely in favor of profit. I am a staunch capitalist, always have been. But my country trumps profit - much as it did during World War II. Business didn't have to drop what they were doing and help the war effort, did they? Yet they did. American citizens didn't have to engage in voluntary rationing, but they did it. Business was more than willing to re-tool factories to help the war effort - profit be damned. And, when the war was over - we went crazy with building, buying, selling and moving up. And we never looked back.
This country, if not worse off that it was in that war, is nearly as bad. The major difference that I see now? A generation coming up that is without hope. To me, that is the most destructive thing this country could be facing. Sure, the operative word nowadays is "adapt". Sorry, but not everyone in the country can be an IT Engineer or a CEO. Doesn't work that way.
Well, if you equate patriotism with taking fewer profits due to a government who does its damndest to limit those profits and/or take whatever it wants from you on the theory it will spend your money more wisely and effectively than you will, then of course you will continue to do business here as a noble thing.
So business is less profitable....due to patriotism? Is this one of those 'I'm a business owner, so trust me' scenarios? Or can you actually back up your claims with objective evidence?
Because so far this is sounding shockingly subjective and emotion based.
I was in a service business that could not do business by operating elsewhere. But if I had been in manufacturing with the oppressive, self-serving, anti-business, authoritarian government that we have now?
You do realize that our manufacturing sector is expanding, right? And that we have the largest manufacturing output on this planet...by a fairly large margin?
More than China. More than Japan. More than the entire EU. More than China, Germany and France *combined*?
May I suggest that you grossly overstating your case.
Okay...prove it. * here come the links from MSNBC......
Nope. Not that I think it will matter. You seem to be justifying why you ignored the source before its even offered. Which doesn't bode well for its utility in convincing you.
Countries Compared by Industry Manufacturing output. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
I'm not ignoring anything. I know all the counter arguments and over the last few years have debated them vigorously. As it has been said, there are statistic and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistics or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
Well, if you equate patriotism with taking fewer profits due to a government who does its damndest to limit those profits and/or take whatever it wants from you on the theory it will spend your money more wisely and effectively than you will, then of course you will continue to do business here as a noble thing.
So business is less profitable....due to patriotism? Is this one of those 'I'm a business owner, so trust me' scenarios? Or can you actually back up your claims with objective evidence?
Because so far this is sounding shockingly subjective and emotion based.
I was in a service business that could not do business by operating elsewhere. But if I had been in manufacturing with the oppressive, self-serving, anti-business, authoritarian government that we have now?
You do realize that our manufacturing sector is expanding, right? And that we have the largest manufacturing output on this planet...by a fairly large margin?
More than China. More than Japan. More than the entire EU. More than China, Germany and France *combined*?
May I suggest that you grossly overstating your case.
Okay...prove it. * here come the links from MSNBC......
Nope. Not that I think it will matter. You seem to be justifying why you ignored the source before its even offered. Which doesn't bode well for its utility in convincing you.
Countries Compared by Industry Manufacturing output. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
I'm not ignoring anything. I know all the counter arguments and over the last few years have debated them vigorously. As it has been said, there are statistic and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistics or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
So you've paraphrased Twain. But do you even disagree with the stats I've cited. If so, why? If not, then your argument of 'crushed economies' is powerfully undermined.
So business is less profitable....due to patriotism? Is this one of those 'I'm a business owner, so trust me' scenarios? Or can you actually back up your claims with objective evidence?
Because so far this is sounding shockingly subjective and emotion based.
You do realize that our manufacturing sector is expanding, right? And that we have the largest manufacturing output on this planet...by a fairly large margin?
More than China. More than Japan. More than the entire EU. More than China, Germany and France *combined*?
May I suggest that you grossly overstating your case.
Okay...prove it. * here come the links from MSNBC......
Nope. Not that I think it will matter. You seem to be justifying why you ignored the source before its even offered. Which doesn't bode well for its utility in convincing you.
Countries Compared by Industry Manufacturing output. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
I'm not ignoring anything. I know all the counter arguments and over the last few years have debated them vigorously. As it has been said, there are statistic and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistics or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
So you've paraphrased Twain. But do you even disagree with the stats I've cited. If so, why? If not, then your argument of 'crushed economies' is powerfully undermined.
Sweetie, I don't care what any statistics are if they aren't used within the whole big picture.
If there is more manufacturing output that's great, but if it has no effect on the number of people who want and need good jobs and can't find them, then it is irrelevent to the subject we are discussing.
Okay...prove it. * here come the links from MSNBC......
Nope. Not that I think it will matter. You seem to be justifying why you ignored the source before its even offered. Which doesn't bode well for its utility in convincing you.
Countries Compared by Industry Manufacturing output. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
I'm not ignoring anything. I know all the counter arguments and over the last few years have debated them vigorously. As it has been said, there are statistic and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistics or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
So you've paraphrased Twain. But do you even disagree with the stats I've cited. If so, why? If not, then your argument of 'crushed economies' is powerfully undermined.
Sweetie, I don't care what any statistics are if they aren't used within the whole big picture.
That's about as vague a comment as I've heard. And one that's almost uselessly subjective. What is 'used within the whole big picture', according to you?
And hun....please be specific. As its your basis for ignoring any stat from any source that you don't like, it would be relevant to any conversation had with you.
If there is more manufacturing output that's great, but if it has no effect on the number of people who want and need good jobs and can't find them, then it is irrelevent to the subject we are discussing.
Actual employment is rising. Manufacturing output is rising. Productivity is rising. And you're ignoring it all. If you ignore anything that contradicts what you already believe, that's just plain old confirmation bias. And its one of the most useless fallacies of logic to employ when trying to get an accurate picture of something.
Nope. Not that I think it will matter. You seem to be justifying why you ignored the source before its even offered. Which doesn't bode well for its utility in convincing you.
Countries Compared by Industry Manufacturing output. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
I'm not ignoring anything. I know all the counter arguments and over the last few years have debated them vigorously. As it has been said, there are statistic and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistics or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
So you've paraphrased Twain. But do you even disagree with the stats I've cited. If so, why? If not, then your argument of 'crushed economies' is powerfully undermined.
Sweetie, I don't care what any statistics are if they aren't used within the whole big picture.
That's about as vague a comment as I've heard. And one that's almost uselessly subjective. What is 'used within the whole big picture', according to you?
And hun....please be specific. As its your basis for ignoring any stat from any source that you don't like, it would be relevant to any conversation had with you.
If there is more manufacturing output that's great, but if it has no effect on the number of people who want and need good jobs and can't find them, then it is irrelevent to the subject we are discussing.
Actual employment is rising. Manufacturing output is rising. Productivity is rising. And you're ignoring it all. If you ignore anything that contradicts what you already believe, that's just plain old confirmation bias. And its one of the most useless fallacies of logic to employ when trying to get an accurate picture of something.
The 'big picture' is ALL the factors that must be considered to evaluate the situation. I can look at statistics that show I have collected more $1 bills than ever before as evidence of a growing net worth, but if I look at a separate statistic that shows I spent more $1 bills than I took in, then I have to admit that my net worth could have declined.
I'm not ignoring anything. I know all the counter arguments and over the last few years have debated them vigorously. As it has been said, there are statistic and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistics or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
So you've paraphrased Twain. But do you even disagree with the stats I've cited. If so, why? If not, then your argument of 'crushed economies' is powerfully undermined.
Sweetie, I don't care what any statistics are if they aren't used within the whole big picture.
That's about as vague a comment as I've heard. And one that's almost uselessly subjective. What is 'used within the whole big picture', according to you?
And hun....please be specific. As its your basis for ignoring any stat from any source that you don't like, it would be relevant to any conversation had with you.
If there is more manufacturing output that's great, but if it has no effect on the number of people who want and need good jobs and can't find them, then it is irrelevent to the subject we are discussing.
Actual employment is rising. Manufacturing output is rising. Productivity is rising. And you're ignoring it all. If you ignore anything that contradicts what you already believe, that's just plain old confirmation bias. And its one of the most useless fallacies of logic to employ when trying to get an accurate picture of something.
The 'big picture' is ALL the factors that must be considered to evaluate the situation. I can look at statistics that show I have collected more $1 bills than ever before as evidence of a growing net worth, but if I look at a separate statistic that shows I spent more $1 bills than I took in, then I have to admit that my net worth could have declined.
Yeah, but you're not considering 'all factors'. You're ignoring anything, and I mean *anything* that doesn't conform to your existing beliefs. You've literally ignored total employment, the unemployment rate, the stablized LPR, the rising manufacturing sector, the US having the highest manufacturing output of any nation, and a growing economy.......
.......because it didn't match your beliefs.
You're offering us nothing but confirmation bias. If you ignore any positive economic indicator, of course you're only going to see decline. But why would a rational person do this if they're genuinely interested in what's actually happening?
There is no reason.
Employment by major industry sectorI'm not ignoring anything. I know all the counter arguments and over the last few years have debated them vigorously. As it has been said, there are statistic and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistics or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
So you've paraphrased Twain. But do you even disagree with the stats I've cited. If so, why? If not, then your argument of 'crushed economies' is powerfully undermined.
Sweetie, I don't care what any statistics are if they aren't used within the whole big picture.
That's about as vague a comment as I've heard. And one that's almost uselessly subjective. What is 'used within the whole big picture', according to you?
And hun....please be specific. As its your basis for ignoring any stat from any source that you don't like, it would be relevant to any conversation had with you.
If there is more manufacturing output that's great, but if it has no effect on the number of people who want and need good jobs and can't find them, then it is irrelevent to the subject we are discussing.
Actual employment is rising. Manufacturing output is rising. Productivity is rising. And you're ignoring it all. If you ignore anything that contradicts what you already believe, that's just plain old confirmation bias. And its one of the most useless fallacies of logic to employ when trying to get an accurate picture of something.
The 'big picture' is ALL the factors that must be considered to evaluate the situation. I can look at statistics that show I have collected more $1 bills than ever before as evidence of a growing net worth, but if I look at a separate statistic that shows I spent more $1 bills than I took in, then I have to admit that my net worth could have declined.
Yeah, but you're not considering 'all factors'. You're ignoring anything, and I mean *anything* that doesn't conform to your existing beliefs. You've literally ignored total employment, the unemployment rate, the stablized LPR, the rising manufacturing sector, the US having the highest manufacturing output of any nation, and a growing economy.......
.......because it didn't match your beliefs.
You're offering us nothing but confirmation bias. If you ignore any positive economic indicator, of course you're only going to see decline. But why would a rational person do this if they're genuinely interested in what's actually happening?
There is no reason.
Where did I say the business will not come back?Those jobs are not returning, period.Isn't that what I said? Well except for the Obama part?But you're right. Unless we shed ourselves of progressive oppression and authoritarianism and allow Americans to do what Americans do best, again, we will continue to stagnate and regress.
Nope. We will cease to exist.
It is possible, but I'm not ready to say that. If we do not keep fighting against it, I just think we will go the way of so many other nations that succumbed to radical leftism and became miserable places as a result of it.
Well, I'm looking 20-30 years down the road (if we make it that far). I have said this for the longest time - this is NOT the country I grew up in. My God, I remember, as a High School kid, that only a few kids made it to College. Why? College was a BITCH to get into in those days. On a brighter note, however, 99% of the kids I graduated with had good paying jobs when they graduated.
Now? Kids graduate and have no clue what's next. There are no jobs to go to so everyone flocks to College - and takes up space for 4-5 years then return home to their Mom's basement. THAT is the present and the future.
All the while, companies that USED to provide good paying jobs for young Americans are gone - overseas for slave wage pay. They WILL NOT return until we have a president who penalizes the living shit out of them. Radical? You bet. But the days of corporations profiting off of slave wages overseas, and returning their products to the US for sale, needs to stop and it needs to stop YESTERDAY.
Will it happen? Very doubtful. These corporations merely pay off both sides to "turn away" and pay them no mind and while our "leaders" do that - THEY get rich while the corporations get FILTHY rich. We simply can NOT go on this way. It will eventually mean the death of this country.
Once, we were a nation of builders - now? A Nation of consumers, and 30 hours a week at minimum wage is the norm.
Even ridding ourselves of the free trade mantra and many regulations, automation ensures that those 'jobs' would return to machines and not Americans. The reality is that it is not worth it to pay Americans the high wages we expect to put a pair of sneakers or a circuit board together. We will pay laborers a buck a day or a machines cents a day to do it. It would be better for us to have them produced here either way but production through labor is not coming back. The world is not the same as when those jobs left.
I disagree. You make it as profitable to do business here as it is in other places, and business will choose to do business here.
So you've paraphrased Twain. But do you even disagree with the stats I've cited. If so, why? If not, then your argument of 'crushed economies' is powerfully undermined.
Sweetie, I don't care what any statistics are if they aren't used within the whole big picture.
That's about as vague a comment as I've heard. And one that's almost uselessly subjective. What is 'used within the whole big picture', according to you?
And hun....please be specific. As its your basis for ignoring any stat from any source that you don't like, it would be relevant to any conversation had with you.
If there is more manufacturing output that's great, but if it has no effect on the number of people who want and need good jobs and can't find them, then it is irrelevent to the subject we are discussing.
Actual employment is rising. Manufacturing output is rising. Productivity is rising. And you're ignoring it all. If you ignore anything that contradicts what you already believe, that's just plain old confirmation bias. And its one of the most useless fallacies of logic to employ when trying to get an accurate picture of something.
The 'big picture' is ALL the factors that must be considered to evaluate the situation. I can look at statistics that show I have collected more $1 bills than ever before as evidence of a growing net worth, but if I look at a separate statistic that shows I spent more $1 bills than I took in, then I have to admit that my net worth could have declined.
Yeah, but you're not considering 'all factors'. You're ignoring anything, and I mean *anything* that doesn't conform to your existing beliefs. You've literally ignored total employment, the unemployment rate, the stablized LPR, the rising manufacturing sector, the US having the highest manufacturing output of any nation, and a growing economy.......
.......because it didn't match your beliefs.
You're offering us nothing but confirmation bias. If you ignore any positive economic indicator, of course you're only going to see decline. But why would a rational person do this if they're genuinely interested in what's actually happening?
There is no reason.
No dear. I didn't ignore it.
As it has been said, there are statistics and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistic or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
All I am saying that positive economic indicators are only one aspect of the big picture. You can't point to one set of statistics and ignore all the others and say see? This is proof that the economy is doing just great. That simply is not the way it is.
Let me ask you - why do you care in this instance? Please name a single way that such a measure would impact you in a negative manner. Just one solitary way. I can tell you how it positively effects you.I disagree. You make it as profitable to do business here as it is in other places, and business will choose to do business here.
The one thing that I believe that we are all forgetting is 3 trillion dollars. That's the estimated amount of cash that business is holding off-shore in tax free accounts from their "profits" within the US. For the last 30 years - the lawmakers have made it more than "profitable" for companies to relocate their businesses off shore (think NAFTA).
Is there any reason that the laws can't be addressed to either make it more profitable (in the form of tax breaks) to return to the US or tax their "returns" to the US - to the point where they no longer make money faster than ex lax through a baby.
They pay pennies on the dollar for labor in these countries. They pay kickbacks to these governments to allow them to employ slave labor. Then - they ship these goods back here and charge 1,000 times what it cost the company to build them overseas. And you folks are telling me that we couldn't bring these companies BACK to the US and require them to pay a living wage!?!?! Haven't they made enough over the last 30 years?
In the event they want nothing of returning "home" - tax them out of existence. I know it's harsh - but SOMEONE has to look out for the people of THIS country as well. We haven't had a leader in the last 25 years willing to stand up for us - but rather everyone else in the world.
In his announcement speech this week, Ben Carson addressed that head on with the suggestion of a tax holiday and let everybody bring their money home. It isn't doing any of us any good whatsoever parked overseas and wouldn't cost anybody a single dime by letting everybody bring their money home and put it to work here tax free.
That would be capitalism at its finest. And would make for a much more secure future for many. But how many on the left or right would agree with that?
And by 'everybody', you mean the fantastically wealthy? As very few middle class Americans have Cayman Islands or Swiss Bank accounts.
Yup. That's exactly what I mean. How would it harm you or anybody else to encourage those who have that 3+ trillion parked off shore to escape the 35% taxes on it to bring it home? Give them a tax holiday to do that? We need that money in the economy here. That would be one way to accomplish it.
And we have a Congress now that could be promoted to promote capitalism instead of trying to destroy it. All we need is a President with the same point of view and it could be a great thing.
So yet another massive tax cut for the fantastically wealthy.
Is there anything else to conservatives?
Let me ask you - why do you care in this instance? Please name a single way that such a measure would impact you in a negative manner. Just one solitary way. I can tell you how it positively effects you.The one thing that I believe that we are all forgetting is 3 trillion dollars. That's the estimated amount of cash that business is holding off-shore in tax free accounts from their "profits" within the US. For the last 30 years - the lawmakers have made it more than "profitable" for companies to relocate their businesses off shore (think NAFTA).
Is there any reason that the laws can't be addressed to either make it more profitable (in the form of tax breaks) to return to the US or tax their "returns" to the US - to the point where they no longer make money faster than ex lax through a baby.
They pay pennies on the dollar for labor in these countries. They pay kickbacks to these governments to allow them to employ slave labor. Then - they ship these goods back here and charge 1,000 times what it cost the company to build them overseas. And you folks are telling me that we couldn't bring these companies BACK to the US and require them to pay a living wage!?!?! Haven't they made enough over the last 30 years?
In the event they want nothing of returning "home" - tax them out of existence. I know it's harsh - but SOMEONE has to look out for the people of THIS country as well. We haven't had a leader in the last 25 years willing to stand up for us - but rather everyone else in the world.
In his announcement speech this week, Ben Carson addressed that head on with the suggestion of a tax holiday and let everybody bring their money home. It isn't doing any of us any good whatsoever parked overseas and wouldn't cost anybody a single dime by letting everybody bring their money home and put it to work here tax free.
That would be capitalism at its finest. And would make for a much more secure future for many. But how many on the left or right would agree with that?
And by 'everybody', you mean the fantastically wealthy? As very few middle class Americans have Cayman Islands or Swiss Bank accounts.
Yup. That's exactly what I mean. How would it harm you or anybody else to encourage those who have that 3+ trillion parked off shore to escape the 35% taxes on it to bring it home? Give them a tax holiday to do that? We need that money in the economy here. That would be one way to accomplish it.
And we have a Congress now that could be promoted to promote capitalism instead of trying to destroy it. All we need is a President with the same point of view and it could be a great thing.
So yet another massive tax cut for the fantastically wealthy.
Is there anything else to conservatives?
Sweetie, I don't care what any statistics are if they aren't used within the whole big picture.
That's about as vague a comment as I've heard. And one that's almost uselessly subjective. What is 'used within the whole big picture', according to you?
And hun....please be specific. As its your basis for ignoring any stat from any source that you don't like, it would be relevant to any conversation had with you.
If there is more manufacturing output that's great, but if it has no effect on the number of people who want and need good jobs and can't find them, then it is irrelevent to the subject we are discussing.
Actual employment is rising. Manufacturing output is rising. Productivity is rising. And you're ignoring it all. If you ignore anything that contradicts what you already believe, that's just plain old confirmation bias. And its one of the most useless fallacies of logic to employ when trying to get an accurate picture of something.
The 'big picture' is ALL the factors that must be considered to evaluate the situation. I can look at statistics that show I have collected more $1 bills than ever before as evidence of a growing net worth, but if I look at a separate statistic that shows I spent more $1 bills than I took in, then I have to admit that my net worth could have declined.
Yeah, but you're not considering 'all factors'. You're ignoring anything, and I mean *anything* that doesn't conform to your existing beliefs. You've literally ignored total employment, the unemployment rate, the stablized LPR, the rising manufacturing sector, the US having the highest manufacturing output of any nation, and a growing economy.......
.......because it didn't match your beliefs.
You're offering us nothing but confirmation bias. If you ignore any positive economic indicator, of course you're only going to see decline. But why would a rational person do this if they're genuinely interested in what's actually happening?
There is no reason.
No dear. I didn't ignore it.
You certainly seemed to right here, sport:
As it has been said, there are statistics and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistic or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
Looks to me that you're dismissing any stat that doesn't conform to your beliefs as 'lies'. That's confirmation bias. A useless fallacy of logic.
All I am saying that positive economic indicators are only one aspect of the big picture. You can't point to one set of statistics and ignore all the others and say see? This is proof that the economy is doing just great. That simply is not the way it is.
I haven't said that the 'economy is doing great'. I've said that you've grossly overstated your case regarding the economy being crushed. That the economy is growing, manufacturing is climbing, total employment is ascending, unempolyment is down, the LPR is stable.
That's about as vague a comment as I've heard. And one that's almost uselessly subjective. What is 'used within the whole big picture', according to you?
And hun....please be specific. As its your basis for ignoring any stat from any source that you don't like, it would be relevant to any conversation had with you.
Actual employment is rising. Manufacturing output is rising. Productivity is rising. And you're ignoring it all. If you ignore anything that contradicts what you already believe, that's just plain old confirmation bias. And its one of the most useless fallacies of logic to employ when trying to get an accurate picture of something.
The 'big picture' is ALL the factors that must be considered to evaluate the situation. I can look at statistics that show I have collected more $1 bills than ever before as evidence of a growing net worth, but if I look at a separate statistic that shows I spent more $1 bills than I took in, then I have to admit that my net worth could have declined.
Yeah, but you're not considering 'all factors'. You're ignoring anything, and I mean *anything* that doesn't conform to your existing beliefs. You've literally ignored total employment, the unemployment rate, the stablized LPR, the rising manufacturing sector, the US having the highest manufacturing output of any nation, and a growing economy.......
.......because it didn't match your beliefs.
You're offering us nothing but confirmation bias. If you ignore any positive economic indicator, of course you're only going to see decline. But why would a rational person do this if they're genuinely interested in what's actually happening?
There is no reason.
No dear. I didn't ignore it.
You certainly seemed to right here, sport:
As it has been said, there are statistics and there are damn statistics and there are lies. Anybody can find a statistic or a chart or a graph somebody has developed for the internet to prove just about anything they want to prove. And there are many people who just gobble those up because they so desperately want those statistics or those charts and graphs to be the truth.
But sometimes they in effect promote a great lie between a raw statistic and the truth of what actually is.
Looks to me that you're dismissing any stat that doesn't conform to your beliefs as 'lies'. That's confirmation bias. A useless fallacy of logic.
All I am saying that positive economic indicators are only one aspect of the big picture. You can't point to one set of statistics and ignore all the others and say see? This is proof that the economy is doing just great. That simply is not the way it is.
I haven't said that the 'economy is doing great'. I've said that you've grossly overstated your case regarding the economy being crushed. That the economy is growing, manufacturing is climbing, total employment is ascending, unempolyment is down, the LPR is stable.
What you want me to have said and what I have actually said don't always mesh though do they. Unless you can point to a place in which I actually said it, how you choose to interpret what I said is about as likely to be incorrect as using a single statistic or two as evidence that the economy is doing well.
As far as the original point goes, no one has really addressed the core issue at hand. I hear a lot of 'things have automated before and jobs still exist' but no one is dealing with the WHY. Those jobs were moved to thinking positions over 'doing' positions.
You realize that much of the thrust of the post and the videos is that machines are THINKING better than people now. Tell me - where are those jobs going to og when computers both think and do better than we do?
