The Fork In The Road...

[MaggieMae]

"Here is the problem. Just because you don't own stock doesn't mean you won't be affected. You probably own stock but don't know it. Do you have a retirement fund or pension fund? Do you have a 401K, 457K? anything of that sort? Do you put money in a bank in a savings or checking account? Your money doesn't just sit in a vault somewhere with your name on it. It gets invested into funds that are made up of yes.... stocks.

The percentage of Americans that own stock, directly or indirectly is probably close to 100 percent. Unless you have your money under a mattress, then stocks will affect you.

Also, you have to include employer issued stock. Stocks are traded daily, which fluctuates the value of your employer issued stock. As far as what to do articles, it does help you plan what to do. Should you buy that car or house? Should you pay your credit card off now as opposed to paying only the minimum? Unfortunately, it effects everybody.

The closest thing I found was that 56.9 million households in the US own stocks.
Source(s):
http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/w…"
What percentage of Americans own stock? - Yahoo! Answers

You first link doesn't work anymore and the second is two years old. While stock held within 401k's two years ago might have been healthy, how many people lost a fortune since then? How many have had to cash in their 401k's just to make mortgage payments or pay the doctor/hospital when they got sick after getting laid off?

1. So, where's the 'stretch'?

2. So, where are your stats?

3. Do you wish to claim that 'few' or 'almost none' is the operative for stockholding in America?

If not, where's the beef?

I really didn't think I'd need to prove that people have suffered dramatic losses to their 401K's, because you trip over those stories every day. But here ya go. Just one of hundreds:

Retirement Dreams Disappear With 401(k)s - 60 Minutes - CBS News

 

[saveliberty]

Why is it that the left doesn't want corporations to harm individuals, but will quickly harm individuals with reduced rights and liberties freely given over to government?

Your simply choosing different winners.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You first link doesn't work anymore and the second is two years old. While stock held within 401k's two years ago might have been healthy, how many people lost a fortune since then? How many have had to cash in their 401k's just to make mortgage payments or pay the doctor/hospital when they got sick after getting laid off?

1. So, where's the 'stretch'?

2. So, where are your stats?

3. Do you wish to claim that 'few' or 'almost none' is the operative for stockholding in America?

If not, where's the beef?

I really didn't think I'd need to prove that people have suffered dramatic losses to their 401K's, because you trip over those stories every day. But here ya go. Just one of hundreds:

Retirement Dreams Disappear With 401(k)s - 60 Minutes - CBS News

Perhaps I misunderstood..

I thought that you were disputing that Americans are largely involved in the stock market...rather than that there investments were cut by the meltdown.

And I don't agree that the American dream is out of any American's reach.
Opportunity remains.

 

[MaggieMae]

1. So, where's the 'stretch'?

2. So, where are your stats?

3. Do you wish to claim that 'few' or 'almost none' is the operative for stockholding in America?

If not, where's the beef?

I really didn't think I'd need to prove that people have suffered dramatic losses to their 401K's, because you trip over those stories every day. But here ya go. Just one of hundreds:

Retirement Dreams Disappear With 401(k)s - 60 Minutes - CBS News

Perhaps I misunderstood..

I thought that you were disputing that Americans are largely involved in the stock market...rather than that there investments were cut by the meltdown.

And I don't agree that the American dream is out of any American's reach.
Opportunity remains.

I don't think the dream will ever fade, but the opportunities right now are slim. But I'm your basic perennial optimist, and brighter days ARE ahead. I just hope we've all learned a major lesson that buy now/pay later is not the answer to happiness (and the American Dream).

 

[midcan5]

1. ... the original progressives—including leaders such as Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt—rejected America's founding principles....today's leftist policies are the culmination of a journey begun by progressives over a century ago.

2. The progressive movement did indeed repudiate the principles of individual liberty and limited government that were the basis of the American republic.

I am always amazed at how the conservative corporatists know what was in the founder's heads as they created the American experiment. In truth the founders were elitists who thought they knew better than the average person, and were confused and bemused over the democracy [republic ?] that developed.

Repost - check out a real historian and not a corporate economic think tank hack like Pestritto. Wood discusses the founder's wonder over the evolution of a working society and the utopian fantasy of the wingnuts on the right.

American Founders and Foundations - 'Gordon Wood is author, co-author or editor of more than a dozen books, including:'

"The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787 (1969); Representation in the American Revolution (1969); The Making of the Constitution (1987); The Radicalism of the American Revolution (1992); The American Revolution: A History (2001); The Americanization of Benjamin Franklin (2004); Revolutionary Characters: What Made the Founders Different (2006); The Purpose of the Past: Reflections of the Uses of History (2008); Empire of Liberty: A History of the Early Republic, 1789-1815 (2010).


In Depth - In Depth: Gordon Wood - Book TV

 

[midcan5]

Be an individual join the Tea Party! LMAO

So so true, whining is only enjoyable when you whine together, whining alone is too lonely even for Americans. Albert Hirschman captures them perfectly through any change that moved society away from its backward past.

The Rhetoric of Reaction - Albert O. Hirschman - Harvard University Press

The curious thing is the same whining accompanied, FDR, JFK, Clinton, and now Obama, and in all cases there were groups similar to the tea party whiners of today. But wingnuts know no history, they were all born yesterday, it seems.

 

[PoliticalChic]

1. ... the original progressives—including leaders such as Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt—rejected America's founding principles....today's leftist policies are the culmination of a journey begun by progressives over a century ago.

2. The progressive movement did indeed repudiate the principles of individual liberty and limited government that were the basis of the American republic.

I am always amazed at how the conservative corporatists know what was in the founder's heads as they created the American experiment. In truth the founders were elitists who thought they knew better than the average person, and were confused and bemused over the democracy [republic ?] that developed.

Repost - check out a real historian and not a corporate economic think tank hack like Pestritto. Wood discusses the founder's wonder over the evolution of a working society and the utopian fantasy of the wingnuts on the right.

American Founders and Foundations - 'Gordon Wood is author, co-author or editor of more than a dozen books, including:'

"The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787 (1969); Representation in the American Revolution (1969); The Making of the Constitution (1987); The Radicalism of the American Revolution (1992); The American Revolution: A History (2001); The Americanization of Benjamin Franklin (2004); Revolutionary Characters: What Made the Founders Different (2006); The Purpose of the Past: Reflections of the Uses of History (2008); Empire of Liberty: A History of the Early Republic, 1789-1815 (2010).


In Depth - In Depth: Gordon Wood - Book TV

Poor Middy, I almost feel sorry for you...I said almost.
This is political karma...if I may coin a phrase.
After inflicting this left wing, incompetent empty suit on the nation.

Now, to deconstruct your post:

1."I am always amazed at how the conservative corporatists.."
Isn't this a bit syncretic, combining conservative with corportist?
Corporatism is one arm of the statist-octopus. I believe Goldberg covered it in this way:
“Corporatism” was a term for dividing up industry into cooperative units, and associations, that would work together under the rubric of “national purpose.” Corporatism simply seemed a more straightforward attempt at what social planners and businessmen had been moving toward for decades. It embodied a new sense of national purpose that would allow business and labor to put aside their class differences and hammer out what was best for all. It represented an exhaustion with politics and a newfound faith in science and experts.

2. "...know what was in the founder's heads as they created the American experiment. In truth the founders were elitists who thought they knew better than the average person, and were confused and bemused over the democracy [republic ?] that developed. "
So, in your convoluted prose you deny my side knowing what the Founders thought, and then tell all what the Founders thought.

How thaumaturgical on your part!

3. "...discusses the founder's wonder over the evolution of a working society and the utopian fantasy of the wingnuts on the right. "
Perhaps you'd like to see some examples of the thinking on your side, and you might, in light of the OP, care to...what,...defend them? Did you notice how I refrain from pejoratives like 'wingnut'? Think about it.

a. Woodrow Wilson: : “Men as communities are supreme over men as individuals.” 1919: Betrayal and the Birth of Modern Liberalism by Fred Siegel, City Journal 22 November 2009

b. In addition to writing the 800-page tome, “The State,” he wrote more popular commentary. One of his regular themes was the advocacy of progressive imperialism in order to subjugate, and thereby elevate, lesser races. As to the annexation of Puerto Rico and the Philippines, “they are children and we are men in these deep matters of government and justice…”

c. . Wilson wrote in “The State,” 1889, that "Government does now whatever experience permits or the times demand." His writings attack the Constitution, and the ideas of natural and individual rights. Along with Frank J. Goodnow, they pioneered the concept of the ‘administrative state,’ which separated the administration of government from the limitations of constitutional government.
American progressivism: a reader - Google Books

d. The rights which [an individual] possesses are...conferred upon him, not by his Creator, but rather by the society to which he belongs. What they are is to be determined by the legislative authority in view of the needs of that society. Social expediency, rather than natural right, is thus to determine the sphere of individual freedom of action.” The Claremont Institute - Leaving the Constitution

e. ‘Wilson wrote treatises explaining why Americans should abandon their ‘blind devotion’ to the Constitution, Teddy was rough-riding all over the document, doing what he pleased and giving bellicose speeches about how the courts had sided against ‘popular rights’ and were ‘lagging behind’ the new realities.” J.Goldberg, “Liberal Fascism,” p.90.

f. The essence of Progressivism, as Wilson put it, was that the individual “marry his interests to the state.” James Bovard, “Freedom in Chains: The Rise of the State and the Demise of the Citizen,” p.8.

g. Roosevelt, in his “New Nationalism” speech” rightly maintains that every man holds his property subject to the general right of the community to regulate its use to whatever degree the public welfare may require it.” New Nationalism Speech by Theodore Roosevelt

h. More from the same speech, 'The New Nationalism,' 1910: “We grudge no man a fortune in civil life if it is honorably obtained and well used. It is not even enough that it should have been gained without doing damage to the community. We should permit it to be gained only so long as the gaining represents benefit to the community.

Oh, my, I had best stop now...but can provide more if you require it....
I certainly look forward to you, or anyone, finding errors in the above, or a way to spin these views to show how you support same...
Of course, if you are unable, you will leave the view that progressive views are far from the Founders, and those that I champion as American values.
(emphasis mine throughout)

If you like, I can link your fav, FDR to similar thinking, as well as the current progressives.

4. I must say, Midcan, that I appreciate the thought and the style, i.e. links and quotes, in your posts. I wish more on the board would handle debate in that manner.

 

[Old Rocks]

Let's see. What reasons have we peons to thank the big corperations and their enablers.

For at least the last 30 years, the wages of the worker, in real money terms, has been declining. The income of the wealthy has been increasing dramatically in the same period. Yet, since the Bush tax cuts, the percentage of income paid in taxes is far less for the wealthy than for the worker.

The claim for the tax cuts is that the extra money that the wealthy had would be invested to create jobs. How has that worked out? Yet, when Clinton raised taxes, we saw an employment boom that was so great that the businesses were crying for workers. So much so that the SS laws were changed to encourage those already retired to re-enter the labor market. Perhaps not having a government competeing for funds is a good thing? Time to re-instate the Clinton tax schedule.

And if the nonsensed in Iraq and Afghanistan continues, time to legislate that any time we have over 200 servicemen in a combat situation, the tax structure reverts to the one in WW2.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Be an individual join the Tea Party! LMAO

So so true, whining is only enjoyable when you whine together, whining alone is too lonely even for Americans. Albert Hirschman captures them perfectly through any change that moved society away from its backward past.

The Rhetoric of Reaction - Albert O. Hirschman - Harvard University Press

The curious thing is the same whining accompanied, FDR, JFK, Clinton, and now Obama, and in all cases there were groups similar to the tea party whiners of today. But wingnuts know no history, they were all born yesterday, it seems.

Funny how the 'whining' reference depends on the beholder of said. It's exactly what I thought you were doing when I read your previous post...

See if you whine when you read my post above.

 

[Old Rocks]

Buffett Slams Tax System Disparities - washingtonpost.com

Wednesday, June 27, 2007

NEW YORK, June 26 -- Warren E. Buffett was his usual folksy self Tuesday night at a fundraiser for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) as he slammed a system that allows the very rich to pay taxes at a lower rate than the middle class.

Buffett cited himself, the third-richest person in the world, as an example. Last year, Buffett said, he was taxed at 17.7 percent on his taxable income of more than $46 million. His receptionist was taxed at about 30 percent.

Buffett said that was despite the fact that he was not trying to avoid paying higher taxes. "I don't have a tax shelter," he said. And he challenged Congress and his audience to see what the people who "clean our offices" are taxed, to loud applause.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Buffett Slams Tax System Disparities - washingtonpost.com

Wednesday, June 27, 2007

NEW YORK, June 26 -- Warren E. Buffett was his usual folksy self Tuesday night at a fundraiser for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) as he slammed a system that allows the very rich to pay taxes at a lower rate than the middle class.

Buffett cited himself, the third-richest person in the world, as an example. Last year, Buffett said, he was taxed at 17.7 percent on his taxable income of more than $46 million. His receptionist was taxed at about 30 percent.

Buffett said that was despite the fact that he was not trying to avoid paying higher taxes. "I don't have a tax shelter," he said. And he challenged Congress and his audience to see what the people who "clean our offices" are taxed, to loud applause.

Calx, your hatred of the rich is duly noted, and not without interest...

but since the theme of this thread is "individual liberty, or serving the collective,' I wonder if you would care to share your views on this topic?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The Central lie of Progressivism lies in the very word "Progressivism"

What are we progressing towards? It's always Socialism/State Control/Fascism and never toward greater liberty and choice

What have we progressed away from? Individual Liberty and freedom.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

People forget capitalism is about competing AWAY extraordinary returns.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

More horse manure from the conservative/corporate think tanks who brought you the near collapse of the entire financial structure, while they monitor your bedroom activities and your freedom in life to marry your loved one, and decide for you when you are ready to take on the responsibility of raising children. Wingnuts rejoice, your brain has received another revisionist update, no need to puzzle over what to think next: 'Tool programming complete.'

I can't even read this stupidity any longer, anyone who reads the history of the 20th century, knows the 'progressivism' of the early part of the century made great progress. The irrational exuberance of the twenties led straight to the GD, which FDR helped pull us out of a near catastrophe till Reagan began the destruction of the middle class and the regulatory structures, that protected the nation till the 80's. Reagan also brought an insane militant hubris that made George W. Bush invade countries totally in opposition to the values of America. I have asked a hundred times for an accomplishment of any of these republicans comparable to FDR or LBJ's civil rights, and I get no answer. They are lost in think tank propaganda, because in the end, republicans like this author are simply corporate hacks.

The Claremont Institute - About the Claremont Institute
The Claremont Institute - Ronald J. Pestritto

....
Coolidge / Hoover - Banks collapse, economy collapses
Great Depression begins - Hoover ineffective
FDR rescues the nation from Great Depression, creates regulatory structure
FDR creates the greatest single asset for all Americans: Social Security
FDR masterfully fought WWII along with Churchill and help from Stalin
Truman ends the savagery of the war with Japan with the ultimate savagery
Truman extends New Deal and Civil rights
Eisenhower ignores right wing war mongering republicans, extends civil rights
Warren court hands down ruling on public school segregation
Eisenhower continues progressivism, Vietnam involvement continues from Truman
Eisenhower commits to helping South Vietnam
'Cold War' clouds the mind of America creating contradictory values
WWII end brings prosperity due to GI bill, home growth, and durable goods growth
Kennedy buys into ridiculous Bay of Pigs plan from Eisenhower administration
America's youth gain power prestige and purchasing power
Battle for space with Russia consumes America's resources
Blacks decide waiting any longer for equality is too long
LBJ foolishly listens to war cries concerning domino effect and tragically involves US in Nam
LBJ advances civil rights and extended welfare so all Americans can have a little of the pie
Nixon has secret plan for ending Vietnam but paranoid personality ruins administration
Nixon opens up trade to China
Anti war demonstrations change attitudes and hurt LBJ social achievements
Carter inherits stagflation economy from Nixon / Ford
Carter supports Afghanistan against Russian occupation, seeds are set for growth of insurgency terrorism
Oil embargo hurts Carter but efforts at energy policy are forgotten as Reagan wins
Reagan starts the destruction of the middle class in part by making government a problem
Reagan starts destruction of regulatory agencies that eventually lead to the Great Recession of today.
Bush Sr experiences effect of Reagan economic policies, economy collapses, real estate boom crash, S&L scandal, bailouts to rescue nation again after republican policy
GH Bush losses as Republican policy fails once again
Clinton raises taxes, economy recovers aided by millennium and Internet bubble
Clinton buys into financial nonsense, supporting NAFTA, regulatory and welfare reform
Armies of money and power go after Clinton spending publicly and privately millions
Bush-Gore election goes to Bush as SCOTUS has moved from liberal to fascist
Bush proves inept in all ways, but 911 attack creates fear and more war cries
Bush proves himself an incompetent leader who creates massive debt and death
Clinton surplus is squandered on tax relief primarily for the wealthy
'War on Terror' clouds the mind of America creating contradictory values
Bush invades Iraq based on trumped up nonsense about WMDs and fear
Economy collapses under Bush and bailouts are once again required after a republican administration
Obama wins election for 'change' due to the failure of Bush and the republicans
Armies of money and power again mount offensive attacking the American values of justice and fairness represented by Obama
Obama passes Healthcare policy, keeps promises on wars
Once again the economy is moving in the right direction but the armies of money and power are greater today and propaganda and revisionist history have gained large footholds in the minds of the uneducated....

And so it goes....republicans fail democrats try....it would seem monkeys and humans never learn....


The Rhetoric of Reaction - Albert O. Hirschman - Harvard University Press
"He argues that a triplet of 'rhetorical' criticisms--perversity, futility, and jeopardy--'has been unfailingly leveled' by 'reactionaries' at each major progressive reform of the past 300 years--those T. H. Marshall identified with the advancement of civil, political and social rights of citizenship...Charmingly written, this book can benefit a diverse readership."

Your timeline is fucked.

When did this happen? "FDR rescues the nation from Great Depression, creates regulatory structure"

 

[CrusaderFrank]

1. ... the original progressives—including leaders such as Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt—rejected America's founding principles....today's leftist policies are the culmination of a journey begun by progressives over a century ago.

2. The progressive movement did indeed repudiate the principles of individual liberty and limited government that were the basis of the American republic.

I am always amazed at how the conservative corporatists know what was in the founder's heads as they created the American experiment. In truth the founders were elitists who thought they knew better than the average person, and were confused and bemused over the democracy [republic ?] that developed.

Repost - check out a real historian and not a corporate economic think tank hack like Pestritto. Wood discusses the founder's wonder over the evolution of a working society and the utopian fantasy of the wingnuts on the right.

American Founders and Foundations - 'Gordon Wood is author, co-author or editor of more than a dozen books, including:'

"The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787 (1969); Representation in the American Revolution (1969); The Making of the Constitution (1987); The Radicalism of the American Revolution (1992); The American Revolution: A History (2001); The Americanization of Benjamin Franklin (2004); Revolutionary Characters: What Made the Founders Different (2006); The Purpose of the Past: Reflections of the Uses of History (2008); Empire of Liberty: A History of the Early Republic, 1789-1815 (2010).


In Depth - In Depth: Gordon Wood - Book TV

The Founders were elitists? You're such a perfect little tool, totally ignorant about our founding and economics. You should get a Gold Star for parroting back the entire Progressive Monologue

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Buffett Slams Tax System Disparities - washingtonpost.com

Wednesday, June 27, 2007

NEW YORK, June 26 -- Warren E. Buffett was his usual folksy self Tuesday night at a fundraiser for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) as he slammed a system that allows the very rich to pay taxes at a lower rate than the middle class.

Buffett cited himself, the third-richest person in the world, as an example. Last year, Buffett said, he was taxed at 17.7 percent on his taxable income of more than $46 million. His receptionist was taxed at about 30 percent.

Buffett said that was despite the fact that he was not trying to avoid paying higher taxes. "I don't have a tax shelter," he said. And he challenged Congress and his audience to see what the people who "clean our offices" are taxed, to loud applause.

Remember kids, prior to the first shot fired in the Progressive Jihad in 1913, we never even had a tax on personal income, it was then only supposed to be for the super rich and our Progressive Social Security number was never supposed to cattle brand us.

 

[Old Rocks]

1. ... the original progressives—including leaders such as Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt—rejected America's founding principles....today's leftist policies are the culmination of a journey begun by progressives over a century ago.

2. The progressive movement did indeed repudiate the principles of individual liberty and limited government that were the basis of the American republic.

I am always amazed at how the conservative corporatists know what was in the founder's heads as they created the American experiment. In truth the founders were elitists who thought they knew better than the average person, and were confused and bemused over the democracy [republic ?] that developed.

Repost - check out a real historian and not a corporate economic think tank hack like Pestritto. Wood discusses the founder's wonder over the evolution of a working society and the utopian fantasy of the wingnuts on the right.

American Founders and Foundations - 'Gordon Wood is author, co-author or editor of more than a dozen books, including:'

"The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787 (1969); Representation in the American Revolution (1969); The Making of the Constitution (1987); The Radicalism of the American Revolution (1992); The American Revolution: A History (2001); The Americanization of Benjamin Franklin (2004); Revolutionary Characters: What Made the Founders Different (2006); The Purpose of the Past: Reflections of the Uses of History (2008); Empire of Liberty: A History of the Early Republic, 1789-1815 (2010).


In Depth - In Depth: Gordon Wood - Book TV

The Founders were elitists? You're such a perfect little tool, totally ignorant about our founding and economics. You should get a Gold Star for parroting back the entire Progressive Monologue

Your claim is that the Founders were not the elite of our society at that time?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I am always amazed at how the conservative corporatists know what was in the founder's heads as they created the American experiment. In truth the founders were elitists who thought they knew better than the average person, and were confused and bemused over the democracy [republic ?] that developed.

Repost - check out a real historian and not a corporate economic think tank hack like Pestritto. Wood discusses the founder's wonder over the evolution of a working society and the utopian fantasy of the wingnuts on the right.

American Founders and Foundations - 'Gordon Wood is author, co-author or editor of more than a dozen books, including:'

"The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787 (1969); Representation in the American Revolution (1969); The Making of the Constitution (1987); The Radicalism of the American Revolution (1992); The American Revolution: A History (2001); The Americanization of Benjamin Franklin (2004); Revolutionary Characters: What Made the Founders Different (2006); The Purpose of the Past: Reflections of the Uses of History (2008); Empire of Liberty: A History of the Early Republic, 1789-1815 (2010).


In Depth - In Depth: Gordon Wood - Book TV

The Founders were elitists? You're such a perfect little tool, totally ignorant about our founding and economics. You should get a Gold Star for parroting back the entire Progressive Monologue

Your claim is that the Founders were not the elite of our society at that time?

You Progressives have very strange notions about people. They were businessmen and farmers and they risked everything including their lives for their cause. Elites don't do that. Soros is a member of the Elite so are the Rockefellers

 

[Toro]

You Progressives have very strange notions about people. They were businessmen and farmers and they risked everything including their lives for their cause. Elites don't do that. Soros is a member of the Elite so are the Rockefellers

There are faaaaaaar more rich Republican elites than rich Democrats elites.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

You Progressives have very strange notions about people. They were businessmen and farmers and they risked everything including their lives for their cause. Elites don't do that. Soros is a member of the Elite so are the Rockefellers

There are faaaaaaar more rich Republican elites than rich Democrats elites.

Yes, the Founder were Republicans Elites. Why didn't I recognize that until just now?