The effectiveness of the "enhanced" techniques.

[Bullypulpit]

Welcome to the Monkey House, Bully. The Obomba administration is an extension of the Bush administration. No change-no hope.

So you're down with black-sites, indefinite detentions, torture and extra-legal judicial systems?

 

[rayboyusmc]

Pogo, we as a nation said waterboarding was torture when we tried and executed Japanese soldiers for using it on our troops.

I guess if you use it on a terrorist, it isn't torture. If you torture the terrorists child, it is morally right. We can do whatever we want to our enemies, they can't?

******* bunch of cognitive dissonant twits.

 

[Yurt]

So torture is okay if it works?

first, it has not been determined it was torture, second you said the enhanced techniques did not work, i proved you wrong, are you going to now admit they worked?

well...

 

[Shogun]

duh.. It's nothing less than EVIL if Uday does it... but if WE do it.. well, thats just patriotism!

 

[Pyrite]

Bully, are you saying if the toture was commited to prevent a future attack on the U.S. it would have been ok?

That is very specifically NOT what he said.

Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison for war crimes. Under his orders this country violated one of it's most important treaties.

People need to go down for this. This cannot be swept under the rug. If we try, we will have shamed ourselves in front of the international community for generations.

 

[Bullypulpit]

There are a class of people in this nation, like PublicIdiot and his fellow travelers, who believe that black sites, indefinite detention without charge, extra-legal judicial systems and torture are justified in order to keep the Republic safe. It they are right, then the laws need to be changed...treaties abandoned...the nation changed. That change would transform the nation beyond the recognition of its Founding Fathers and, in the process, render the sacrifices of every American who has fought and died to protect those founding principles pointless.

By authorizing the use of torture, the Bush administration embarked on a course never before taken by this country...A course whereby actions which have been prosecuted by this nation as crimes and war crimes are deemed legal. It is only those for whom the end justifies the means...for whom the rule of law is but a quaint, outdated ideal...that find the idea of torture palatable. What they fail or, more likely refuse, to understand is that America cannot be saved by destroying the very foundation upon which it stands...the rule of law. Destroy that foundation, and the Republic soon falls.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Bully, are you saying if the toture was commited to prevent a future attack on the U.S. it would have been ok?

That is very specifically NOT what he said.

Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison for war crimes. Under his orders this country violated one of it's most important treaties.

People need to go down for this. This cannot be swept under the rug. If we try, we will have shamed ourselves in front of the international community for generations.

1. Obama has reinstated the Bush Military Tribunals, you know, the ones he roiled against when he was Candidate Obama. He claims they will be different in the following ways:
a. Statements elicited by enhanced techniques will be banned.
b. Heresay evidence will be ‘limited.’
c. More latitude will be allowed in selecting lawyers.
Clearly, these changes are cosmetic, not substantive.
And, he has not ruled out indefinite ‘Preventive Detention,’ which means that these prisoners will neither get the Article 3 Criminal Trial, nor the Military Tribunal.
2.Thusfar the Obama Administration has continued the Bush-Cheney policies:
a. Military Tribunals
b. More troops in Afghanistan
c. No benchmarks
d. No timetables
e. Immunity for telecomm companies in the wiretapping cases
Conclusion: the Bush-Cheney policies are vindicated, and validated.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Bully, are you saying if the toture was commited to prevent a future attack on the U.S. it would have been ok?

That is very specifically NOT what he said.

Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison for war crimes. Under his orders this country violated one of it's most important treaties.

People need to go down for this. This cannot be swept under the rug. If we try, we will have shamed ourselves in front of the international community for generations.

What specific crime did he commit and where's your evidence?

Should we have charged Truman with war crimes too?

 

[Yurt]

There are a class of people in this nation, like PublicIdiot and his fellow travelers, who believe that black sites, indefinite detention without charge, extra-legal judicial systems and torture are justified in order to keep the Republic safe. It they are right, then the laws need to be changed...treaties abandoned...the nation changed. That change would transform the nation beyond the recognition of its Founding Fathers and, in the process, render the sacrifices of every American who has fought and died to protect those founding principles pointless.

By authorizing the use of torture, the Bush administration embarked on a course never before taken by this country...A course whereby actions which have been prosecuted by this nation as crimes and war crimes are deemed legal. It is only those for whom the end justifies the means...for whom the rule of law is but a quaint, outdated ideal...that find the idea of torture palatable. What they fail or, more likely refuse, to understand is that America cannot be saved by destroying the very foundation upon which it stands...the rule of law. Destroy that foundation, and the Republic soon falls.

i notice that you have left obama out of your post....why is this when he supports the underlined?

 

[Bullypulpit]

There are a class of people in this nation, like PublicIdiot and his fellow travelers, who believe that black sites, indefinite detention without charge, extra-legal judicial systems and torture are justified in order to keep the Republic safe. It they are right, then the laws need to be changed...treaties abandoned...the nation changed. That change would transform the nation beyond the recognition of its Founding Fathers and, in the process, render the sacrifices of every American who has fought and died to protect those founding principles pointless.

By authorizing the use of torture, the Bush administration embarked on a course never before taken by this country...A course whereby actions which have been prosecuted by this nation as crimes and war crimes are deemed legal. It is only those for whom the end justifies the means...for whom the rule of law is but a quaint, outdated ideal...that find the idea of torture palatable. What they fail or, more likely refuse, to understand is that America cannot be saved by destroying the very foundation upon which it stands...the rule of law. Destroy that foundation, and the Republic soon falls.

i notice that you have left obama out of your post....why is this when he supports the underlined?

Consider criticism of the Obama administration on the subject implicit.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Bully, are you saying if the toture was commited to prevent a future attack on the U.S. it would have been ok?

Had you been paying attention, you would have noticed

The torture of detainees, not to prevent further attacks on the US...Even though not even that is justification for torture

 

[Bullypulpit]

Bully, are you saying if the toture was commited to prevent a future attack on the U.S. it would have been ok?

That is very specifically NOT what he said.

Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison for war crimes. Under his orders this country violated one of it's most important treaties.

People need to go down for this. This cannot be swept under the rug. If we try, we will have shamed ourselves in front of the international community for generations.

1. Obama has reinstated the Bush Military Tribunals, you know, the ones he roiled against when he was Candidate Obama. He claims they will be different in the following ways:
a. Statements elicited by enhanced techniques will be banned.
b. Heresay evidence will be ‘limited.’
c. More latitude will be allowed in selecting lawyers.
Clearly, these changes are cosmetic, not substantive.
And, he has not ruled out indefinite ‘Preventive Detention,’ which means that these prisoners will neither get the Article 3 Criminal Trial, nor the Military Tribunal.
2.Thusfar the Obama Administration has continued the Bush-Cheney policies:
a. Military Tribunals
b. More troops in Afghanistan
c. No benchmarks
d. No timetables
e. Immunity for telecomm companies in the wiretapping cases
Conclusion: the Bush-Cheney policies are vindicated, and validated.

No, they are neither vindicated nor validated. Using the veil of national security to cover up the evidence of crimes is complicity in those crimes. It doesn't matter WHO does it. And yes, if that is what the Obama administration IS doing, they are complicit in those crimes.

 

[Yurt]

There are a class of people in this nation, like PublicIdiot and his fellow travelers, who believe that black sites, indefinite detention without charge, extra-legal judicial systems and torture are justified in order to keep the Republic safe. It they are right, then the laws need to be changed...treaties abandoned...the nation changed. That change would transform the nation beyond the recognition of its Founding Fathers and, in the process, render the sacrifices of every American who has fought and died to protect those founding principles pointless.

By authorizing the use of torture, the Bush administration embarked on a course never before taken by this country...A course whereby actions which have been prosecuted by this nation as crimes and war crimes are deemed legal. It is only those for whom the end justifies the means...for whom the rule of law is but a quaint, outdated ideal...that find the idea of torture palatable. What they fail or, more likely refuse, to understand is that America cannot be saved by destroying the very foundation upon which it stands...the rule of law. Destroy that foundation, and the Republic soon falls.

i notice that you have left obama out of your post....why is this when he supports the underlined?

Consider criticism of the Obama administration on the subject implicit.

so whenever you attack bush on this subject i should somehow know you aslo mean to attack obama...

 

[Pyrite]

Bully, are you saying if the toture was commited to prevent a future attack on the U.S. it would have been ok?

That is very specifically NOT what he said.

Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison for war crimes. Under his orders this country violated one of it's most important treaties.

People need to go down for this. This cannot be swept under the rug. If we try, we will have shamed ourselves in front of the international community for generations.

1. Obama has reinstated the Bush Military Tribunals, you know, the ones he roiled against when he was Candidate Obama. He claims they will be different in the following ways:
a. Statements elicited by enhanced techniques will be banned.
b. Heresay evidence will be ‘limited.’
c. More latitude will be allowed in selecting lawyers.
Clearly, these changes are cosmetic, not substantive.
And, he has not ruled out indefinite ‘Preventive Detention,’ which means that these prisoners will neither get the Article 3 Criminal Trial, nor the Military Tribunal.
2.Thusfar the Obama Administration has continued the Bush-Cheney policies:
a. Military Tribunals
b. More troops in Afghanistan
c. No benchmarks
d. No timetables
e. Immunity for telecomm companies in the wiretapping cases
Conclusion: the Bush-Cheney policies are vindicated, and validated.

I consider 1a a substantive change. the acceptance of coerced evidence was my biggest problem with the MCA.

putting more troops in afghanistan is not an extension of the Bush policy, as Bush ignored afghanistan.

Obama has put forth a timetable for the removal of troops from Iraq.

 

[Pyrite]

What specific crime did he commit and where's your evidence?

Should we have charged Truman with war crimes too?

He violated the Geneva Conventions by ordering a uniform Iraqi security officer to be waterboarded. There is a CIA officer who has now admitted to recieving this order, who can testify against him in a court of law.

 

[elvis]

That is very specifically NOT what he said.

Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison for war crimes. Under his orders this country violated one of it's most important treaties.

People need to go down for this. This cannot be swept under the rug. If we try, we will have shamed ourselves in front of the international community for generations.

1. Obama has reinstated the Bush Military Tribunals, you know, the ones he roiled against when he was Candidate Obama. He claims they will be different in the following ways:
a. Statements elicited by enhanced techniques will be banned.
b. Heresay evidence will be ‘limited.’
c. More latitude will be allowed in selecting lawyers.
Clearly, these changes are cosmetic, not substantive.
And, he has not ruled out indefinite ‘Preventive Detention,’ which means that these prisoners will neither get the Article 3 Criminal Trial, nor the Military Tribunal.
2.Thusfar the Obama Administration has continued the Bush-Cheney policies:
a. Military Tribunals
b. More troops in Afghanistan
c. No benchmarks
d. No timetables
e. Immunity for telecomm companies in the wiretapping cases
Conclusion: the Bush-Cheney policies are vindicated, and validated.

I consider 1a a substantive change. the acceptance of coerced evidence was my biggest problem with the MCA.

putting more troops in afghanistan is not an extension of the Bush policy, as Bush ignored afghanistan.

Obama has put forth a timetable for the removal of troops from Iraq.

We're never leaving Iraq, so quit wishing upon the star called Obama. we will always have at least 50,000 troops there.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

What specific crime did he commit and where's your evidence?

Should we have charged Truman with war crimes too?

He violated the Geneva Conventions by ordering a uniform Iraqi security officer to be waterboarded. There is a CIA officer who has now admitted to recieving this order, who can testify against him in a court of law.

What's the officers name?

 

[rayboyusmc]

Also consider Obama being saddled with a bag of shit from Bush that will take time to clean up. Don't believe you have heard the last on this. There will be investigations and there will be convictions of those who broke the law.

Who would Jesus torture?

Sarah Palin at the Turkey Renditioning Plant

 

[PoliticalChic]

That is very specifically NOT what he said.

Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison for war crimes. Under his orders this country violated one of it's most important treaties.

People need to go down for this. This cannot be swept under the rug. If we try, we will have shamed ourselves in front of the international community for generations.

1. Obama has reinstated the Bush Military Tribunals, you know, the ones he roiled against when he was Candidate Obama. He claims they will be different in the following ways:
a. Statements elicited by enhanced techniques will be banned.
b. Heresay evidence will be ‘limited.’
c. More latitude will be allowed in selecting lawyers.
Clearly, these changes are cosmetic, not substantive.
And, he has not ruled out indefinite ‘Preventive Detention,’ which means that these prisoners will neither get the Article 3 Criminal Trial, nor the Military Tribunal.
2.Thusfar the Obama Administration has continued the Bush-Cheney policies:
a. Military Tribunals
b. More troops in Afghanistan
c. No benchmarks
d. No timetables
e. Immunity for telecomm companies in the wiretapping cases
Conclusion: the Bush-Cheney policies are vindicated, and validated.

putting more troops in afghanistan is not an extension of the Bush policy, as Bush ignored afghanistan.

Obama has put forth a timetable for the removal of troops from Iraq.

"The president has decided to send a Marine battalion — which are usually between 500 to 1,500 troops originally slated for Iraq to Afghanistan in November.

In January, an Army brigade — of 3,500 to 5,000 troops — will also go to Afghanistan.

The U.S. already has 31,000 soldiers in Afghanistan, up from 21,000 two years ago, according to the White House. "
Bush: Troops to divert to Afghanistan - Washington Times

The president has already announced plans to withdraw most U.S. combat troops from Iraq by August 2010. However, as many as 50,000 are expected to remain in the country beyond that to perform counterterrorism duties.
Obama: Time for Iraqis to 'take responsibility' - Conflict in Iraq- msnbc.com

 

[PoliticalChic]

That is very specifically NOT what he said.

Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and he needs to spend the rest of his life in prison for war crimes. Under his orders this country violated one of it's most important treaties.

People need to go down for this. This cannot be swept under the rug. If we try, we will have shamed ourselves in front of the international community for generations.

1. Obama has reinstated the Bush Military Tribunals, you know, the ones he roiled against when he was Candidate Obama. He claims they will be different in the following ways:
a. Statements elicited by enhanced techniques will be banned.
b. Heresay evidence will be ‘limited.’
c. More latitude will be allowed in selecting lawyers.
Clearly, these changes are cosmetic, not substantive.
And, he has not ruled out indefinite ‘Preventive Detention,’ which means that these prisoners will neither get the Article 3 Criminal Trial, nor the Military Tribunal.
2.Thusfar the Obama Administration has continued the Bush-Cheney policies:
a. Military Tribunals
b. More troops in Afghanistan
c. No benchmarks
d. No timetables
e. Immunity for telecomm companies in the wiretapping cases
Conclusion: the Bush-Cheney policies are vindicated, and validated.

No, they are neither vindicated nor validated. Using the veil of national security to cover up the evidence of crimes is complicity in those crimes. It doesn't matter WHO does it. And yes, if that is what the Obama administration IS doing, they are complicit in those crimes.

While you may not feel they are vindicated, the Obama Administration has validated same.

At least your position is consistent.