The effectiveness of the "enhanced" techniques.

[Procrustes Stretched]

the effectiveness of the "enhanced" techniques was always in question.

now we learn it was private contractors...
and Pelosi now vehemently denies the GOP rumor mill.

what is next?


latimes.com

Ali Soufan, a former FBI counter-terrorism agent and interrogator, testified that President George W. Bush and Justice Department lawyers were wrong when they said that waterboarding and other tactics used on one suspect provided key pieces of intelligence about Al Qaeda after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Testifying from behind a screen to protect his identity, Soufan said the techniques, touted by the Bush administration as perhaps its most effective weapon against terrorism, were actually slow, ineffective and unreliable.

Another witness, Philip D. Zelikow, who was a legal advisor to then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, provided new details about what he said were his efforts to aggressively protest the use of the techniques in meetings in the White House situation room and elsewhere.

In each case, he said, he was routinely blocked by more senior administration officials and ordered to destroy a lengthy legal memo in which he outlined his concerns about the "unsound, even unreasonable" legal justifications for the tactics.

We were told we couldn't second-guess the brave CIA officers who did this, and now we hear that the program was led by private contractors with a profit motive and no real interrogation experience," Whitehouse said.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), a lawyer in the Air Force Reserve, challenged Soufan and other witnesses to prove that the coercive interrogation techniques did not provide important information about Al Qaeda.

He suggested that hearings on the tactics and their legal foundations were "a political stunt" by the Democrats, and that their efforts to gather details of the classified program would dangerously undermine national security.

Some administration officials "made mistakes out of fear," and the government should learn from those mistakes but not prosecute or even investigate anyone for their role in them, Graham said.

After the hearing, Graham continued to protest the growing chorus of Democratic calls for investigations, noting that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco) reportedly was briefed on at least some aspects of the classified program years ago.

"Should we have Nancy Pelosi here?" Graham asked. "Where does it end?"

WTF is making a case based on ideology, Lindsey G, or others?

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, here is a case for total transparency. What was done in our nation's name?

 

[catzmeow]

Senate testimony sheds light on alleged torture

More on the same issue....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

One of my big philosophical differences with the Bush/Cheney Admin and now the Obama one, is the secrecy bs. Why should we be protected from ourselves? It isn't like our international enemies and allies do not know what was done. Only the American public is kept in the dark.

Well, here is a case for total transparency. What was done in our nation's name?

 

[Yurt]

obama already admitted the enhanced techniques yielded intelligence, further he never disputed cheney's claim that the techniques saved lives....and it is telling that obama released the memos but won't release the memos detailing the successes....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

obama already admitted the enhanced techniques yielded intelligence, further he never disputed cheney's claim that the techniques saved lives....and it is telling that obama released the memos but won't release the memos detailing the successes....

do any memos REALLY detail the success of the techniques?

We have the word of VP Cheney against the words of a few people who were actually there.
hmmmmmm, ....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

btw yurt, nothing is telling at all...unless of course one drinks from the pitcher of paranoid flavor koolaid

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

All you people need to do is to prove the FACTS which impart THE WHOLE TRUTH.

Now you idiots claim that 'coersive interrogation only produces false information... WELL... for you to make that claim all there is to proving it is to produce the evidence which shows us what the interrogation subject knew to be TRUE and contrast THAT by what they said under stressful interrogation... which is to say, establish that they knew this truth and show that they lied when they weren't being asked nice...

Which shouldn't be that difficult... because in your above positions you implied that these men were GUSHING information to those interrogators who asked them nice... so just go back to the file which was compiled by Soufan's interrogations, the NICE INTERROGATION... which shouldn't be hard to find, as it has to be HUGE; given that it's SURE to be stuffed with TRUTHFULL answers to all the NICELY ASKED QUESTIONS...

To wit: Nicey nice interrogator in Red; Terrorists in blue...

'So how ya doin'? ' Fine... '

Whatdja have for Breakfast?' A lovely piece of naan, some fresh chikpeas and a delightful samosa...'

"Are your accomodations acceptable?" "Well the flat panel is a little small, and they had me out last night, asking me these questions and I missed "The Unit;" but I DVR'd it, so it's no big deal... It's just that my Cousin is in this episode; he drives a taxi in Cairo and plays an informant for Snake Doctor... who ends up slaughtering his family and torturing their corpses for kicks... so if we could wrap this up; I'd like to get back to the room and order up a little noche..' before I watch it... Plus, Will and Grace come on at 11:00 and I'm out of memory, so I can't record that one until I erase something, and it SO hard to choose... you know... it takes time."

Of course... I do the same thing with CSI and Dancing with the Stars... I lost two episodes when I was deployed last month, due to memory and I am still a little torched over that one...

"Torched?" Are you threatening me? 'Cause if you are, I'll stop being cooperative RIGHT NOW, MISTER!

NO no... Of course not, I was just saying... Well, tell ya what, lets get you back to your suite and we'll pick this up after lunch...

Oh... After Lunch? Yeaaaaaahhh... Here's the thing... I've got some letters to write and Abdul over in D-block sent a note, he wants to get together... then there's prayer at 6:00... Soooo... how's Tuesday, arooound... looks like I'm free after 10:00?

Tuesday at 10:00 then... sounds good... and on behalf of the government of the United States... I'd like to thank you for your continued cooperation...

Oh no problem... we're all reasonable men; these things happen... and you can count on me to tell you everything you need to know, just as I have this morning... as long as you continue to behave as a civilized man and do not threaten me with Torture...

Oh I apologize again... I was just... well, It won't happen again... We're all professionals here and you're exactly right, there's simply no excuse for that kind of behavior...

.
.
.
.
So you can see that THAT file would be ENORMOUS after a few weeks of that sort of mind bending banter...

Just grab that file, cull the 'truths' and correlate them to the lies they told under stress techniques and just show us where the TORTURE... produced lies against what you know to be the TRUTH...

I mean I'm SURE you have that already, as that is what you'd need to make the assertion that Torture NEVER PRODUCES ANYTHING BUT LIES... anything less and you're just... well.. LYIN'....

Just hit your notes there and make us privy to the good parts...


Show this board the evidence, which I know you MUST HAVE... because you've made the claim that torture only produces lies, thus you, who claim to NOT be a liar, must have the evidence wherein you can show what the truth was, that the subject KNEW the truth and that their response under stress ran counter TO THAT TRUTH...

For instance... (mean old interrogator in red, innocent terrorist in blue)

The Subject has been on the block, standing without the means of support for 5 hours... the interrogator asks:

OK HAJI! What did you have for BREAKFAST!

Please, just let me rest, I'll tell you all you want to know, I just need to sit down for a moment and collect my thoughts...

BREAKFAST DARKMEAT! OR I'm out that door and won't be back until next Tuesday...

Ok Ok... (and he thinks that the interrogator is giving him a clue with regard to what he WANTS to hear... DARKMEAT! ) YES... I had two eggs, over-easy, CRISPY BACON, and two sausages... which were overcooked, btw, with a nice orange slice... with some hamfried Potatoes...

Well that's better! Ok boys... let him down... and send the tape over to the Pentagon over the secure line: STAT!

Ya see, we know that he didn't have bacon, eggs and sausage, because; First, those foods are anathema to his faith; and Second, we fed him... and to feed him such would be a war crime, as it is ethnically incorrect... PLUS... we know from the NICE interview, that he had a slice of naan, chickpeas and a samosa.

See how that works?

Now produce the evidence...

Otherwise you're just a big fat liar... of the 'pants on fire' variety...

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

LOL... The left is ALL OVER this Torture thing.

Sadly they just can't support a word of it...

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

All you people need to do is to prove the FACTS which impart THE WHOLE TRUTH.

Now you idiots claim
See how that works?

Now produce the evidence...

Otherwise you're just a big fat liar... of the 'pants on fire' variety...

doosh bagh!!!!!

argue with somebody who was actually there.

Ali Soufan, a former FBI counter-terrorism agent and interrogator, testified that President George W. Bush and Justice Department lawyers were wrong when they said that waterboarding and other tactics used on one suspect provided key pieces of intelligence about Al Qaeda after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Testifying from behind a screen to protect his identity, Soufan said the techniques, touted by the Bush administration as perhaps its most effective weapon against terrorism, were actually slow, ineffective and unreliable.

He said that he and a CIA agent gleaned much, if not all, of the crucial information from suspected Al Qaeda chieftain Abu Zubaydah before the coercive techniques were initiated, including information on the key role of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed in the Sept. 11 attacks and the plot by alleged dirty bomber Jose Padilla.

Soufan, now a private security consultant, also said that outside contractors working for the CIA were the ones who used the coercive tactics, and that he and the CIA official working with him protested. The use of harsher methods by the contractors backfired, Soufan said, prompting Zubaydah to stop talking.

"I totally disagree with the assertion that there was a conflict between FBI and CIA. They were 100% supportive," Soufan said of the on-site CIA officials. "The chief psychologist objected to these techniques and left the location even before I did."

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

LOL... The left is ALL OVER this Torture thing.

Sadly they just can't support a word of it...

Ali Soufan, a former FBI counter-terrorism agent and interrogator, testified that...the techniques, touted by the Bush administration as perhaps its most effective weapon against terrorism, were actually slow, ineffective and unreliable.

He said that he and a CIA agent gleaned much, if not all, of the crucial information from suspected Al Qaeda chieftain Abu Zubaydah before the coercive techniques were initiated, including information on the key role of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed in the Sept. 11 attacks and the plot by alleged dirty bomber Jose Padilla.

View Any Post By PubliusInfinitum and I guarantee you a date with

 

[Gunny]

The effectiveness of the "enhanced" techniques.

Whatever other effectiveness they've had aside, they have worked WONDERS at twisting the left's panties collectively in a bunch. What's this ... the 30th or 40th thread as if anyone has anything new to say.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The effectiveness of the "enhanced" techniques.

Whatever other effectiveness they've had aside, they have worked WONDERS at twisting the left's panties collectively in a bunch. What's this ... the 30th or 40th thread as if anyone has anything new to say.

Isn't the Bush/Cheney Admin the true gift that keeps on giving?

 

[garyd]

There is no evidence beyond their sa so that these people were present when said techniques were in use.

By the way any interrogation technique is going to be slow. It is always, done correctly, a long drawn out process.

 

[wihosa]

Effective or not, torture is illegal and always has been in the United States. General George Washington was the first to ban torture and it has been this high standard which gave America the moral high ground. We will not regain it until those responsible for these heinous acts are brought to justice.

 

[Gunny]

The effectiveness of the "enhanced" techniques.

Whatever other effectiveness they've had aside, they have worked WONDERS at twisting the left's panties collectively in a bunch. What's this ... the 30th or 40th thread as if anyone has anything new to say.

Isn't the Bush/Cheney Admin the true gift that keeps on giving?

And the Obama administration is merely an extension of the same.

 

[Gunny]

Effective or not, torture is illegal and always has been in the United States. General George Washington was the first to ban torture and it has been this high standard which gave America the moral high ground. We will not regain it until those responsible for these heinous acts are brought to justice.

For the millionth time, one man's torture is another man's coercion (enhanced techniques). It all depends on who is slinging the mud.

 

[DiveCon]

obama already admitted the enhanced techniques yielded intelligence, further he never disputed cheney's claim that the techniques saved lives....and it is telling that obama released the memos but won't release the memos detailing the successes....

do any memos REALLY detail the success of the techniques?

We have the word of VP Cheney against the words of a few people who were actually there.
hmmmmmm, ....

if it doesn't, wouldn't Cheney be fucked by releasing the memos?

doesn't make logical sense for them to NOT release them if it would
so the only logical conclusion is that those memos say exactly what Cheney is claiming
because if they didn't, Obama wouldn't hesitate

 

[garyd]

And that would be people who claim they were actually there.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Effective or not, torture is illegal and always has been in the United States. General George Washington was the first to ban torture and it has been this high standard which gave America the moral high ground. We will not regain it until those responsible for these heinous acts are brought to justice.

Yes, Torture IS illegal... and we're not talking about torture... we're talking about inducing stress...

You see when you use the word TORTURE... it imparts a concept which is DISTINCT from the issue at hand.

For instance...

If the issue were... Oh, hell I dunno... Let's use MUSCLE CARS...

Now lets say we were talking about giving the detainees Muscle cars and you were against Muscle Cars... in general... and particularly as use to coerce terrorists to give up the critical time sensitive information which only they can provide, to save innocent lives...

But intelligence was released that the US military was giving the detainees free use of a Honda Prius.

You'd be in here

"WE DON'T GIVE AWAY MUSCLE CARS IN THE US..."

We're not, we're letting them use a Prius...

LETTING TERRORIST USE MUSCLE CARS IS WRONG!

But... It's a PRIUS... It's a Gutless Car...

LETTING TERRORISTS DRIVE MUSCLE CARS IS A WAR CRIME! They're powerful cars which routinely go from 0-60 in 3 seconds... they cover the measured quarter-mile in under 12 senconds... They could KILL SOMEONE IN THOSE THINGS!

It's a Prius... we're letting them use a Prius... it's a Hybrid which goes from 0-60 in a week and a half...

See? Apples and Anvils... two distinct issues. Sure, the Prius is a car... four wheel, internal cumbustion engine, sorta... basic transportation... but it's not a Muscle Car and your DEMANDING that it is... isn't EVER going to make it such.

And while Stress inducing coercive interrogation is painful; and TORTURE is painful... they are two entire distinct levels of pain and to compare the two is absurd. Enhanced tecniques of stress induced coercion do not leave the sustained injuries... while TORTURE DOES.

What's more... they work and they work well; despite what the feminine panty waste of the left have to say about them... particularly when there are few to no alternatives to cull TIME SENSITIVE, LIFE SAVING INFORMATION.