The difference between Communism and Socialism

[JBeukema]

Socialism is the economical system that most communist leaders used.

Really? Please show how the average worker in the CCCP had a say in anything.

Do not confuse 'collectivization' [bureaucratic collectivist oligarchy], state capitalism, and an oligarchy with a socialist socio-economic system.

You are the confused one.


Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

lol at the use of a dictionary to claim you understand the subject.

Here's some reading for you:

Theses on Feuerbach
The Principles of Communism
Manifesto of the Communist Party
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Max Shachtman: Genesis of Trotskyism (1933)
Max Shachtman: Struggle for the New Course (1943)
Socialism: the hope of humanity : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972. : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
1871: the Paris commune : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972. : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Sacco and Vanzetti Labors Martyrs : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Marxism, Freedom and the State | libcom.org


But first, let's start with the OP

9. Where Socialists aim to achieve freedom and justice by removing the exploitation which divides men under capitalism, Communists seek to sharpen those class divisions only in order to establish the dictatorship of a single party.


10. International Communism is the instrument of a new imperialism. Wherever it has achieved power it has destroyed freedom or the chance of gaining freedom. It is based on a militarist bureaucracy and a terrorist police. By producing glaring contrasts of wealth and privilege it has created a new class society. Forced labour plays an important part in its economic organisation.


11. Socialism is an international movement which does not demand a rigid uniformity of approach. Whether Socialists build their faith on Marxist or other methods of analysing society, whether they are inspired by religious or humanitarian principles, they all strive for the same goal — a system of social justice, better living, freedom and world peace.


....


POLITICAL DEMOCRACY
1. Socialists strive to build a new society in freedom and by democratic means.
2. Without freedom there can be no Socialism. Socialism can be achieved only through democracy. Democracy can be fully realised only through Socialism.
3. Democracy is government of the people, by the people, for the people. It must secure:
a. The right of every human being to a private life, protected from arbitrary invasion by the state.
b. Political liberties like freedom of thought, expression, education, organisation and religion.
c. The representation of the people through free elections, under universal, equal and secret franchise.
d. Government by the majority and respect for the rights of the minority.
e. The equality before the law of all citizens, whatever their birth, sex, language, creed and colour.
f. Right to cultural autonomy for groups with their own language.
g. An independent judiciary system; every man must have the right to a public trial before an impartial tribunal by due process of law.
4. Socialists have always fought for the rights of man.

​

AIMS AND TASKS OF DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Really? Please show how the average worker in the CCCP had a say in anything.

Do not confuse 'collectivization' [bureaucratic collectivist oligarchy], state capitalism, and an oligarchy with a socialist socio-economic system.

You are the confused one.


Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

lol at the use of a dictionary to claim you understand the subject.

Here's some reading for you:

Theses on Feuerbach
The Principles of Communism
Manifesto of the Communist Party
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Max Shachtman: Genesis of Trotskyism (1933)
Max Shachtman: Struggle for the New Course (1943)
Socialism: the hope of humanity : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972. : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
1871: the Paris commune : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972. : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Sacco and Vanzetti Labors Martyrs : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Marxism, Freedom and the State | libcom.org


But first, let's start with the OP

9. Where Socialists aim to achieve freedom and justice by removing the exploitation which divides men under capitalism, Communists seek to sharpen those class divisions only in order to establish the dictatorship of a single party.


10. International Communism is the instrument of a new imperialism. Wherever it has achieved power it has destroyed freedom or the chance of gaining freedom. It is based on a militarist bureaucracy and a terrorist police. By producing glaring contrasts of wealth and privilege it has created a new class society. Forced labour plays an important part in its economic organisation.


11. Socialism is an international movement which does not demand a rigid uniformity of approach. Whether Socialists build their faith on Marxist or other methods of analysing society, whether they are inspired by religious or humanitarian principles, they all strive for the same goal — a system of social justice, better living, freedom and world peace.


....


POLITICAL DEMOCRACY
1. Socialists strive to build a new society in freedom and by democratic means.
2. Without freedom there can be no Socialism. Socialism can be achieved only through democracy. Democracy can be fully realised only through Socialism.
3. Democracy is government of the people, by the people, for the people. It must secure:
a. The right of every human being to a private life, protected from arbitrary invasion by the state.
b. Political liberties like freedom of thought, expression, education, organisation and religion.
c. The representation of the people through free elections, under universal, equal and secret franchise.
d. Government by the majority and respect for the rights of the minority.
e. The equality before the law of all citizens, whatever their birth, sex, language, creed and colour.
f. Right to cultural autonomy for groups with their own language.
g. An independent judiciary system; every man must have the right to a public trial before an impartial tribunal by due process of law.
4. Socialists have always fought for the rights of man.

​

AIMS AND TASKS OF DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM

Are you a socialist?

 

[JBeukema]

Let's just say you do not want to live in either type of system

?

I happen to enjoy living in a socialist nation: workplace safety laws, OSHA, the 40-hour work week, a decent (though quite flawed) system of safety nets that make it pretty much impossible to starve in the USA, minimum wage laws, child labour laws, a progressive tax system (again, while flawed) that doesn't burden the poor with the brunt of the cost of sustaining the nation, public waterways, roadways, and efforts to extend utilities into the rural areas, public libraries, emergency medical care for all who need it, a number of clinics that provide basic medical care to the poor...

 

[JBeukema]

Social democracy, which I think is the most moderate and viable sect of socialism, realizes the benefits of private property and the profit motive of capitalism, with the caveat that unfettered capitalism leads to a different brand of authoritarianism; there's more than one road to serfdom, in other words. So the idea is to temper capitalism to the benefit of society at large, and being a form of democracy allows the society to define "benefit", rather than an insulated and small group of people.

Not a bad summary at all

Class divisions are a reality of human nature: our need for hierarchy.

Not only that, but also stemming form the necessary division of labour and the varying distribution of various resources, as well as the different talents and interests of persons.

But divisions between classes leads to civil unrest when these inequalities become widely unacceptable. A country has an economic interest in maintaining a certain leveling between the classes without destroying the profit motive. It's a balancing act with shades of gray and is constantly evolving.

Hence Article 11:

Socialism is an international movement which does not demand a rigid uniformity of approach. Whether Socialists build their faith on Marxist or other methods of analysing society, whether they are inspired by religious or humanitarian principles, they all strive for the same goal — a system of social justice, better living, freedom and world peace.​

(Note: While the document is describing DS, many who adhere to SD also agree to it, or to some varient, and many SD organizations are party to the SI as well)

Every developed nation shows elements of social democracy: capitalism regulated by an elected government and coupled with a progressive tax scheme that, to some degree, lessens the income disparity between classes as a way to lessen civil unrest and, by extension, ensure economic stability. It's the Third Way.

Hence my last post.

Are you a social democrat?

 

[JBeukema]

You are the confused one.


Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

lol at the use of a dictionary to claim you understand the subject.

Here's some reading for you:

Theses on Feuerbach
The Principles of Communism
Manifesto of the Communist Party
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Max Shachtman: Genesis of Trotskyism (1933)
Max Shachtman: Struggle for the New Course (1943)
Socialism: the hope of humanity : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972. : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
1871: the Paris commune : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972. : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Sacco and Vanzetti Labors Martyrs : Shachtman, Max, 1903-1972 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Marxism, Freedom and the State | libcom.org


But first, let's start with the OP

9. Where Socialists aim to achieve freedom and justice by removing the exploitation which divides men under capitalism, Communists seek to sharpen those class divisions only in order to establish the dictatorship of a single party.


10. International Communism is the instrument of a new imperialism. Wherever it has achieved power it has destroyed freedom or the chance of gaining freedom. It is based on a militarist bureaucracy and a terrorist police. By producing glaring contrasts of wealth and privilege it has created a new class society. Forced labour plays an important part in its economic organisation.


11. Socialism is an international movement which does not demand a rigid uniformity of approach. Whether Socialists build their faith on Marxist or other methods of analysing society, whether they are inspired by religious or humanitarian principles, they all strive for the same goal — a system of social justice, better living, freedom and world peace.


....


POLITICAL DEMOCRACY
1. Socialists strive to build a new society in freedom and by democratic means.
2. Without freedom there can be no Socialism. Socialism can be achieved only through democracy. Democracy can be fully realised only through Socialism.
3. Democracy is government of the people, by the people, for the people. It must secure:
a. The right of every human being to a private life, protected from arbitrary invasion by the state.
b. Political liberties like freedom of thought, expression, education, organisation and religion.
c. The representation of the people through free elections, under universal, equal and secret franchise.
d. Government by the majority and respect for the rights of the minority.
e. The equality before the law of all citizens, whatever their birth, sex, language, creed and colour.
f. Right to cultural autonomy for groups with their own language.
g. An independent judiciary system; every man must have the right to a public trial before an impartial tribunal by due process of law.
4. Socialists have always fought for the rights of man.

​

AIMS AND TASKS OF DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM

Are you a socialist?

See my current user title and avatar

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Are you a socialist?

See my current user title and avatar

That’s what I thought. Facts are facts most dictators used the socialist system to keep the people in control. Spin it anyway you wish, but I doubt you truly would want to live in a socialist system when you finally achieved your goal and you are not a member of the controlling party.
Being a socialtist only works for people when they control the shots.

 

[JBeukema]

Are you a socialist?

See my current user title and avatar

That’s what I thought.

You thought I was a moderate social democrat? Do you want a gold star? I mean, it's my user title, I have the red rose for my avatar, and I've repeatedly stated the fact, even making a thread about it some time ago.

Facts are facts most dictators used the socialist system to keep the people in control.

wait.. most dictators... used a socialist system.. to keep THE PEOPLE in control?


Then they weren't dictators, were they? That's impossible by definition, lke saying the colour blue is red, which is a light shade of green

Spin it anyway you wish, but I doubt you truly would want to live in a socialist system

I do live in a socialist country. It's flawed, but it sure beats unfettered capitalism.

I'm glad we've past socialist reforms in the US. Perhaps you'd like to go make clothes for Layne Bryant in a sweatshop and huddle into a small room with one toilet at the end of the day, but I much prefer our socialist state, where the worker is protected form such exploitation.

when you finally achieved your goal and you are not a member of the controlling party.

WTF are you babbling about? go see the original link. Both Social Democrats and Democratic Socialists are sworn enemies of Bolshevik Communism, SD is an evolutionary system in opposition to the revolutionary communists, and the signers of the the Frankfurt Declaration were/are no friends of the traitor Stalin.

Being a socialtist only works for people when they control the shots.

You're thinking of authoritarian communism. Go. Read. Come back when you have a clue.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Are you a socialist?

That’s what I thought.

You thought I was a moderate social democrat? Do you want a gold star? I mean, it's my user title, I have the red rose for my avatar, and I've repeatedly stated the fact, even making a thread about it some time ago.




wait.. most dictators... used a socialist system.. to keep THE PEOPLE in control?


Then they weren't dictators, were they? That's impossible by definition, lke saying the colour blue is red, which is a light shade of green


I do live in a socialist country. It's flawed, but it sure beats unfettered capitalism.

I'm glad we've past socialist reforms in the US. Perhaps you'd like to go make clothes for Layne Bryant in a sweatshop and huddle into a small room with one toilet at the end of the day, but I much prefer our socialist state, where the worker is protected form such exploitation.

when you finally achieved your goal and you are not a member of the controlling party.

WTF are you babbling about? go see the original link. Both Social Democrats and Democratic Socialists are sworn enemies of Bolshevik Communism, SD is an evolutionary system in opposition to the revolutionary communists, and the signers of the the Frankfurt Declaration were/are no friends of the traitor Stalin.

Being a socialtist only works for people when they control the shots.

You're thinking of authoritarian communism. Go. Read. Come back when you have a clue.

You are a very disturbed person. You have no concept of what socialism is nor what it leads to.
Countries that use OR USED the socialist systems
U.S.S.R.
Nazi Germany
Cuba
North Korea
China

From the CIA

Socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2128.html

 

[antagon]

Socialism is the means to the Communist End!

Not all socialists view communism as the end. There are lines of thought that view Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, New Democracy, or some other system as the end rather than the means.

We tend to not get along very well with Communists- especially given their habit of trying to kill us all whenever they get any power.

this is certainly true.

commies seem to fall into a trap of socialism, much as capitalists, as they attempt to hold together the extremes of their philosophies. then some folks attempt socialism outright. each of the ways socialism is arrived at, and the extents of its implementation (or relegation) determines the nature of it's manifestation altogether.

 

[antagon]

WTF are you babbling about? ... Go. Read. Come back when you have a clue.

You are a very disturbed person. You have no concept of what socialism is nor what it leads to.
Countries that use OR USED the socialist systems
U.S.S.R.
Nazi Germany
Cuba
North Korea
China

From the CIA

Socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2128.html

the united states employs socialist systems. just about every developed nation has as a prerequisite to achieving a productive, wealthy, capitalist society. i can't fathom how you've missed that.

 

[JBeukema]

You are a very disturbed person. You have no concept of what socialism is nor what it leads to.

Really?


The working man in a nation with socialist reforms:

The labouring class in a nation without such reforms (or with no enforcement of them);

Metro Group Linked to Horrific Sweatshop Conditions in Bangladesh - The National Labor Committee



Dirty Clothes - The National Labor Committee

China's Youth Meet Microsoft - The National Labor Committee





I'm sure as hell glad I live in a nation that's seen socialist reforms.

Countries that use OR USED the socialist systems
U.S.S.R.
Nazi Germany
Cuba
North Korea
China

That's funny as hell. Again, go forth and read. I recommend Schactman as a starting point.

bureaucratic collectivist oligarchy =/= socislism.


Google: Anti-Stalinist Socialists

From the CIA

Right.. because we should rely on the dictionary and the CIA to tell us about the matter

I've given you links. GO read the words of the men (and women) themselves.

Marxists Internet Archive Library, Complete Index of Writers

 

[JBeukema]

Bureaucratic collectivism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JBeukema]

I see we need to start big with the basics

Shachtmanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bigrebnc1775]

WTF are you babbling about? ... Go. Read. Come back when you have a clue.

You are a very disturbed person. You have no concept of what socialism is nor what it leads to.
Countries that use OR USED the socialist systems
U.S.S.R.
Nazi Germany
Cuba
North Korea
China

From the CIA

Socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2128.html

the united states employs socialist systems. just about every developed nation has as a prerequisite to achieving a productive, wealthy, capitalist society. i can't fathom how you've missed that.

I can't see how you missed what the CIA said about countries that have a socialist system.
"most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite"
Are you disagreeing with people who know a hell of a lot more then you do on the subject?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I see we need to start big with the basics

Shachtmanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I use history as my refernce to why we need to stay as far away from socialism as we can.
Sieg Heil

Mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and exploited; and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division; and from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from fundamental facts.
Joseph Stalin

We don't let them have ideas. Why would we let them have guns?
Joseph Stalin

 

[antagon]

You are a very disturbed person. You have no concept of what socialism is nor what it leads to.
Countries that use OR USED the socialist systems
U.S.S.R.
Nazi Germany
Cuba
North Korea
China

From the CIA

Socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2128.html

the united states employs socialist systems. just about every developed nation has as a prerequisite to achieving a productive, wealthy, capitalist society. i can't fathom how you've missed that.

I can't see how you missed what the CIA said about countries that have a socialist system.
"most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite"
Are you disagreeing with people who know a hell of a lot more then you do on the subject?

if you can cite any source which contends that social welfare, social security, labor reforms, medicare, permission of labor unions, our civil services, our seizure of private assets for collective benefit, and a number of other such vestiges of socialistic policy which the US has embraced are not socialistic, i would both disagree with those sources and contend that i know a hell of a lot more than they do on the subject.

balls in your court.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

the united states employs socialist systems. just about every developed nation has as a prerequisite to achieving a productive, wealthy, capitalist society. i can't fathom how you've missed that.

I can't see how you missed what the CIA said about countries that have a socialist system.
"most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite"
Are you disagreeing with people who know a hell of a lot more then you do on the subject?

if you can cite any source which contends that social welfare, social security, labor reforms, medicare, permission of labor unions, our civil services, our seizure of private assets for collective benefit, and a number of other such vestiges of socialistic policy which the US has embraced are not socialistic, i would both disagree with those sources and contend that i know a hell of a lot more than they do on the subject.

balls in your court.

With this last comment that disagrees with the information from the CIA
"most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite"
I must ask how old are you?

 

[Barb]

You are a very disturbed person. You have no concept of what socialism is nor what it leads to.
Countries that use OR USED the socialist systems
U.S.S.R.
Nazi Germany
Cuba
North Korea
China

From the CIA

Socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2128.html

the united states employs socialist systems. just about every developed nation has as a prerequisite to achieving a productive, wealthy, capitalist society. i can't fathom how you've missed that.

I can't see how you missed what the CIA said about countries that have a socialist system.
"most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite"
Are you disagreeing with people who know a hell of a lot more then you do on the subject?

The CIA is not exactly a bastion of disinterested information. Neither is the Department of State.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

the united states employs socialist systems. just about every developed nation has as a prerequisite to achieving a productive, wealthy, capitalist society. i can't fathom how you've missed that.

I can't see how you missed what the CIA said about countries that have a socialist system.
"most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite"
Are you disagreeing with people who know a hell of a lot more then you do on the subject?

The CIA is not exactly a bastion of disinterested information. Neither is the Department of State.

How are are the members of this board? I would guess that many are no older then 25 and have no idea what socialism is.

 

[Barb]

I can't see how you missed what the CIA said about countries that have a socialist system.
"most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite"
Are you disagreeing with people who know a hell of a lot more then you do on the subject?

The CIA is not exactly a bastion of disinterested information. Neither is the Department of State.

How are are the members of this board? I would guess that many are no older then 25 and have no idea what socialism is.

You really think the under 25 set make up the majority of people posting on a message board? They're (majority of that age group) out getting laid or recovering from getting laid. Meanwhile, good links to scholarship are dismissed for a reference to the CIA? Seriously?