The Best Part of Electric Vehicles

[Rigby5]

It also says BEVs have lower life cycle greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions than ICEVs.

Only if you use a lot of solar, wind, etc.
Since coal is actually the main source of electricity, then GHG emissions are much higher with EVs.

 

[sealybobo]

Obviously it is impossible to use less fuel and then pollute more.
The US car makers simply have been bribing the government into cheating, in order to sell fewer motorcycles and sell more cars.

NOx is not really a pollution at all.
Anything hot produces NOx, including an incandescent light bulb.
There are many types of NOx, but the NOx in ICE exhaust is not harmful or persistent.
The US EPA simply uses NOx as a means of promoting US vehicles.
For example, the EPA has no problem with this:

They said, I know it seems counter intuitive but...

And I love how Myth Busters did an entire show on this explaining in great detail and you guys think you know better. I know it's just a tv show but you're saying they are wrong and you are right? Who the fuck are you? You guys are right wing idiots who lobby for coal and oil. So we know you have an agenda. Not Myth Busters.

Motorcycles weigh significantly less than cars, and generally have smaller engines. That means they use less fuel than the typical car, and they also require fewer raw materials to make.

But does that mean motorcycles are greener than cars overall?

The answer to that question is a bit complicated.

The results showed that motorcycles were generally more fuel efficient than cars, and emitted less carbon dioxide.

But they were also found to emit higher levels of hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen oxides.

These results made it difficult for the MythBusters to draw any clear conclusions about which type of vehicle is greener.

For buyers looking for the greenest possible vehicle, the solution may not be to switch from four wheels to two, but to switch from gasoline to electric.

As with cars, gasoline-powered motorcycles will never be able to achieve the low overall emissions of all-electric bikes.

Why motorcycles may not be greener than cars: missing emission gear

When looking for green transportation, does it make sense to opt for two wheels instead of four? Motorcycles weigh significantly less than cars, and generally have smaller engines. That means they use less fuel than the typical car, and they also require fewer raw materials to make. DON'T MISS...

www.greencarreports.com

 

[sealybobo]

No one has ever shown NOx from ICE engines is harmful.
There are many forms of NOx, but the only really toxic ones are not produced by ICE engines.
NOx also rapidly breaks down and is harmless.
NOx also is needed by plants.

I don't know what NOx is. Perhaps NOx has nothing to do with the fact that motorcycles may not be greener than cars.

 

[toobfreak]

Make sure your smoke alarms are working and every bedroom has an emergency exit. No problem.

No problem? You're kidding, right? By the time a fire in my garage builds and spreads to where it could impact a smoke detector in my basement, my house is toast. And it would cost me thousands of dollars to change one of my bedroom windows to an emergency exit where I could get out onto a patio roof to have a chance of fleeing-- my windows are designed to PREVENT people from gaining access into my house!

How about I just keep my gas guzzler instead.

 

[sealybobo]

Only if you use a lot of solar, wind, etc.
Since coal is actually the main source of electricity, then GHG emissions are much higher with EVs.

If you say so. The article said BEVs have lower life cycle greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions than ICEVs. It didn't say anything about Only if you use a lot of solar, wind, etc. You said that. Who knows if that is true or even matters to the topic we are discussing. You seem to be rejecting the facts because of GHG's and ICEVs and NOx's. Perhaps this is how Republicans have convinced you that man made climate change isn't real. By using a lot of acronyms so no one knows what you are talking about. I bet if we got an expert on this here he or she would point out where you are wrong or confused. I'm not a scientist I just go by what the scientists say. Are you denying the science here like you do global warming?

Funny every article I find on this subject says Motorbikes '16 times worse than cars for pollution'

Show me an article that says this is wrong.

 

[Rigby5]

They said, I know it seems counter intuitive but...

And I love how Myth Busters did an entire show on this explaining in great detail and you guys think you know better. I know it's just a tv show but you're saying they are wrong and you are right? Who the fuck are you? You guys are right wing idiots who lobby for coal and oil. So we know you have an agenda. Not Myth Busters.

Motorcycles weigh significantly less than cars, and generally have smaller engines. That means they use less fuel than the typical car, and they also require fewer raw materials to make.

But does that mean motorcycles are greener than cars overall?

The answer to that question is a bit complicated.

The results showed that motorcycles were generally more fuel efficient than cars, and emitted less carbon dioxide.

But they were also found to emit higher levels of hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen oxides.

These results made it difficult for the MythBusters to draw any clear conclusions about which type of vehicle is greener.

For buyers looking for the greenest possible vehicle, the solution may not be to switch from four wheels to two, but to switch from gasoline to electric.

As with cars, gasoline-powered motorcycles will never be able to achieve the low overall emissions of all-electric bikes.

Why motorcycles may not be greener than cars: missing emission gear

When looking for green transportation, does it make sense to opt for two wheels instead of four? Motorcycles weigh significantly less than cars, and generally have smaller engines. That means they use less fuel than the typical car, and they also require fewer raw materials to make. DON'T MISS...

www.greencarreports.com

Yes they are wrong and I am right because I know the science, have a degree in physics, and have done automotive engineering for decades.

Tell me how Mythbusters is going to evaluate the emissions of electrical power plants across the country?
For example, CA claims to not use any coal at all, but I KNOW CA gets MOST of its electricity from out of state coal plants.

 

[Rigby5]

If you say so. The article said BEVs have lower life cycle greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions than ICEVs. It didn't say anything about Only if you use a lot of solar, wind, etc. You said that. Who knows if that is true or even matters to the topic we are discussing. You seem to be rejecting the facts because of GHG's and ICEVs and NOx's. Perhaps this is how Republicans have convinced you that man made climate change isn't real. By using a lot of acronyms so no one knows what you are talking about. I bet if we got an expert on this here he or she would point out where you are wrong or confused. I'm not a scientist I just go by what the scientists say. Are you denying the science here like you do global warming?

Funny every article I find on this subject says Motorbikes '16 times worse than cars for pollution'

Show me an article that says this is wrong.

It is only percentage wise where motorcycles emit more than cars.
Cars also cheat with catalytic converters because catalytic converters actually increase emissions and make them more toxic, but just no longer are in a form that is tested for.
For example, before they took all the Sulphur out of gasoline, catalytic converters were notorious for the rotten egg smell from the toxic Sulphur dioxide and other toxic molecules that would quickly corrode the exhaust systems.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't know what NOx is. Perhaps NOx has nothing to do with the fact that motorcycles may not be greener than cars.

There is O2 and N2 in the atmosphere naturally.
Nitrogen is actually the majority of the atmosphere.
Nitrogen normally is inert, meaning it does not like to combine with anything very much.
So is totally harmless.
But any heat source can make nitrogen and oxygen combine.
NO is nasty, while NO2 is just the laughing gas they typically use as the propellant in whipped cream pressurized cans.
There are about 6 nitrogen and oxygen possible combinations, and NOx means all of them.

 

[sealybobo]

Yes they are wrong and I am right because I know the science, have a degree in physics, and have done automotive engineering for decades.

Tell me how Mythbusters is going to evaluate the emissions of electrical power plants across the country?
For example, CA claims to not use any coal at all, but I KNOW CA gets MOST of its electricity from out of state coal plants.

Then show me an article that substantiates your claims. Should be easy. I'm finding lots of articles explaining how motorcycles in the end may not be greener than cars. Show me motorcycles are better than cars for the environment.

 

[sealybobo]

It is only percentage wise where motorcycles emit more than cars.
Cars also cheat with catalytic converters because catalytic converters actually increase emissions and make them more toxic, but just no longer are in a form that is tested for.
For example, before they took all the Sulphur out of gasoline, catalytic converters were notorious for the rotten egg smell from the toxic Sulphur dioxide and other toxic molecules that would quickly corrode the exhaust systems.

I did a search for do catalitic converters increase emissions?

Catalytic converters can contribute to global warming in another way, too. They reduce the efficiency of motor vehicle engines, causing increased fuel consumption and hence greater emissions of carbon dioxide.

 

[Rigby5]

Then show me an article that substantiates your claims. Should be easy. I'm finding lots of articles explaining how motorcycles in the end may not be greener than cars. Show me motorcycles are better than cars for the environment.

My point is how US car makers are running propaganda campaigns.
Motorcycles are such a tiny market in comparison, they obviously can't do that.
But you should already have noticed.
Like with the image of the US pickup truck, "rolling coal".

The point is the EPA is fine with these US made diesel trucks spewing soot, but then sued VW for billions over them getting over 56 mpg instead of the 34 mpg they were supposed to get.
That is because the US trucks have blueDEF injectors that only make the pollution worse, but not detectable on tests.
The whole thing is a con game.
That should be obvious.
You don't have to have an engineering degree to know the EPA is lying to us and just trying to help US car/truck sales.

 

[sealybobo]

There is no such thing as "states rights".
Only individuals have rights, and states can not legally infringe arbitrarily.
They can not legally treat electric motors differently than ICE motors.

But they do. Sorry you are so wrong. Ebikes are considered bikes in most states NOT motorized vehicles like mopeds. Motorized vehicles are not allowed on the bike trails but my ebike is. Does that bother you? Sorry.

In general, an electric bicycle is a subset of a motorized bicycle. ... A motorized bicycle can have both a gas or electric engine. Depending on the state, it may or may not of pedals. A motorized bicycle may be classified as a Moped or motorcycle, depending on speed, power of engine and state it is used in.

Some of the reasons E-bikes are emissions-free, low impact and operate silently.

State legislatures have begun to grapple with how to differentiate and define e-bikes and regulate their operation and equipment standards on roadways and trails in their respective states. One challenge is the distinction between other motorized vehicles such as scooters and mopeds, and the burgeoning market and interest in e-bikes as a cost-effective and environmentally friendly transportation option.

The law defined a low-speed electric bicycle as “A two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.” The federal law permits e-bikes to be powered by the motor alone (a “throttle-assist” e-bike), or by a combination of motor and human power (a “pedal-assist” e-bike).

This law distinguishes, at the federal level, e-bikes that can travel 20 mph or less under motor power alone from motorcycles, mopeds and motor vehicles.

There has been a steady stream of legislative action at statehouses regarding e-bikes since 2015. State legislation has focused on three dynamics:

• Revising older state laws that classify e-bikes as mopeds and scooters and may include burdensome licensure, registration or equipment requirements.
• Creating three-tier classification systems for e-bikes depending on their speed capabilities.
• Refining more recent e-bike laws that could benefit from further clarification and detail.

Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming. All these states have different laws regarding the operation of electric bicycles. In the remaining states, electric bicycles lack a specific definition and may be included within another vehicle class such as “moped” or “motorized bicycle.”

In Mississippi, there is no clear designation for an electric bicycle, but an attorney general opinion indicates that an electric bicycle would be considered a bicycle. While Kentucky also lacks a definition for e-bikes, the Department of Transportation passed an administrative regulation in 2015 that brought e-bikes within the scope of the state’s bicycle regulations.

State Electric Bicycle Laws | A Legislative Primer

This primer deals with low speed electric bicycles as defined by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

www.ncsl.org

 

[hadit]

Yesterday I saw a concert was going in the next town over. It was 7pm so I decided to ZIP down on my ebike. What took me 10 minutes would have taken you much longer. But here's the best part. On the way home it is mostly up hill. While you're struggling to get home before dark, I'm riding up that hill like I'm Captain America. See you when you get home 20 minutes after me.

The extra time it takes on a bike may not be signifiwhat? I do trips on weekends with my buddies you could not do. The Macomb Orchard Trails connects to the Clinton River trail which connects to the West bloomfield trail which connects to my trail. Oh and we usually do the side trails off these trails. So not only do we ride the Macomb/Orchard trail, we ride around Stony Creek Metropark. And there's a side trail off the Clinton river one. For normal bikers that side trail is the entire day. They wouldn't dream of doing the Clinton River trail and that side trail.

The other day we rode to a town 3 towns over. When we got there we were wondering where a normal bike would be at that point. We figured they would only be half way to the restaurant that we are at. So have fun riding 20 miles while we ride 60-80.

My brother has a place in Gaylord

North Central State Trail - Gaylord to Mackinaw City

www.trailscouncil.org

This trail is 66 miles long. So we can't ride it and ride it back. We can't go 132 miles in one day. So we either are going to do it in two trips. 33 miles up and back one time and the other 33 the next time we go. Or we can drive one truck to the end and drive back to the start with a car and ride all 66 miles in one day. I'd like to do the 66 miles in one day. You could never do this on a regular bike. No way. And this isn't all paved so you probably don't want to bring your 22 speed racing bike.

Who's talking about pedaling 50 miles? I'm talking about something faster than a bike, like a motorcycle or a car, something that would do the 50 miles in less than an hour. So while you can't go 132 miles in one day, I'll do it in 2 and a half hours.

 

[sealybobo]

There is no such thing as "states rights".
Only individuals have rights, and states can not legally infringe arbitrarily.
They can not legally treat electric motors differently than ICE motors.

I also found this about mopeds

• Never operate a moped on freeways, more than two side-by-side, between lanes of traffic, or on sidewalks and bicycle paths.

So you can't ride a moped on bike paths even though

Even though a Moped meets these criteria

• Has an engine that does not exceed 100 cc piston displacement
• Does not have a gearshift
• Has a top speed of 30 mph or less on a level surface

Still you can't ride one on the bike trails. At least not in Michigan. What state do you live in I'll look up the law in your state.

404

www.michigan.gov

 

[Rigby5]

But they do. Sorry you are so wrong. Ebikes are considered bikes in most states NOT motorized vehicles like mopeds. Motorized vehicles are not allowed on the bike trails but my ebike is. Does that bother you? Sorry.

In general, an electric bicycle is a subset of a motorized bicycle. ... A motorized bicycle can have both a gas or electric engine. Depending on the state, it may or may not of pedals. A motorized bicycle may be classified as a Moped or motorcycle, depending on speed, power of engine and state it is used in.

Some of the reasons E-bikes are emissions-free, low impact and operate silently.

State legislatures have begun to grapple with how to differentiate and define e-bikes and regulate their operation and equipment standards on roadways and trails in their respective states. One challenge is the distinction between other motorized vehicles such as scooters and mopeds, and the burgeoning market and interest in e-bikes as a cost-effective and environmentally friendly transportation option.

The law defined a low-speed electric bicycle as “A two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.” The federal law permits e-bikes to be powered by the motor alone (a “throttle-assist” e-bike), or by a combination of motor and human power (a “pedal-assist” e-bike).

This law distinguishes, at the federal level, e-bikes that can travel 20 mph or less under motor power alone from motorcycles, mopeds and motor vehicles.

There has been a steady stream of legislative action at statehouses regarding e-bikes since 2015. State legislation has focused on three dynamics:

• Revising older state laws that classify e-bikes as mopeds and scooters and may include burdensome licensure, registration or equipment requirements.
• Creating three-tier classification systems for e-bikes depending on their speed capabilities.
• Refining more recent e-bike laws that could benefit from further clarification and detail.

Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming. All these states have different laws regarding the operation of electric bicycles. In the remaining states, electric bicycles lack a specific definition and may be included within another vehicle class such as “moped” or “motorized bicycle.”

In Mississippi, there is no clear designation for an electric bicycle, but an attorney general opinion indicates that an electric bicycle would be considered a bicycle. While Kentucky also lacks a definition for e-bikes, the Department of Transportation passed an administrative regulation in 2015 that brought e-bikes within the scope of the state’s bicycle regulations.

State Electric Bicycle Laws | A Legislative Primer

This primer deals with low speed electric bicycles as defined by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

www.ncsl.org

Governments are not allowed to illegally discriminate, based on what they personally like or don't like.
Laws have to be made on principles of "blind justice".
For example, government can restrict based on power because that represents a danger to peds.
Electric vs gas makes no difference as to danger, so they have to legally restrict electric motorized as well.
The fact they do not, is illegal.

 

[sealybobo]

Who's talking about pedaling 50 miles? I'm talking about something faster than a bike, like a motorcycle or a car, something that would do the 50 miles in less than an hour. So while you can't go 132 miles in one day, I'll do it in an hour and a half.

Sure but you can't ride the bike trails. If you want to get on a motorcycle and ride on the roads that's different. In MI we have bike trails that go just about everywhere. So beautiful. You don't have access to those trails.

Rails to Trails Conservancy: Building A Nation Connected By Trails

Rails to Trails Conservancy is building a nation connected by trails, reimagining public spaces to create safe ways to be active outdoors.

www.railstotrails.org

You can't enjoy all this

The Great American Rail-Trail promises an all-new American experience. Through 12 states and the District of Columbia, the trail will directly serve nearly 50 million people within 50 miles of the route. Consider the economic opportunities and the benefits for communities along the route of a multiuse trail that stretches more than 3,700 miles between Washington and Washington.

mapping over 36,000+ miles of multiuse trails.

My point was if you have a regular bike you can't go as far as me and if you have a motorized bike you can't go where I go.

 

[sealybobo]

Governments are not allowed to illegally discriminate, based on what they personally like or don't like.
Laws have to be made on principles of "blind justice".
For example, government can restrict based on power because that represents a danger to peds.
Electric vs gas makes no difference as to danger, so they have to legally restrict electric motorized as well.
The fact they do not, is illegal.

There are reasons they don't allow motorized vehicles on these bike trails. Ebikes are classified differently so they are allowed. Sorry if you don't like the law. You can challenge it but I think you will lose.

A disabled guy challenged the law that first said no ebikes on these trails and he won. So that's why I can ride my class 1 bike on the trails. If you tried to take a noisy motorized vehicle on these trials you would be arrested.

So our laws are illegal? You're nuts.

 

[sealybobo]

Governments are not allowed to illegally discriminate, based on what they personally like or don't like.
Laws have to be made on principles of "blind justice".
For example, government can restrict based on power because that represents a danger to peds.
Electric vs gas makes no difference as to danger, so they have to legally restrict electric motorized as well.
The fact they do not, is illegal.

An electric bicycle (or e-bike) is a bicycle that has a small rechargeable electric motor that can give a boost to the pedaling rider and on some models can take over completely. To qualify as an electric bike in Michigan, it must meet the following requirements:

• It must have a seat or saddle for the rider to sit on.
• There must be fully operational pedals.
• It must have an electric motor of no more than 750 watts, or 1 horsepower.

Whether you can ride an electric bicycle on a trail depends on several factors – the e-bike's class, the type of trail, and whether the authority that manages or oversees the trail allows the use. You can read the full legislation here, or see below for a summary.

E-Bikes in Michigan

Understanding electric bicycle laws and where you can and cannot ride them

www.michigan.gov

Breakdown of where you can ride each class of e-bike​

	Class 1	Class 2	Class 3
Allowed on roads and bike lanes	Yes	Yes	Yes
Allowed on linear paved trails	Yes, but can be regulated	No, but can be authorized	No, but can be authorized
Allowed on non-motorized, natural surface trails (such as mountain bike trails)	No, but can be authorized	No, but can be authorized	No, but can be authorized
Allowed on motorized, natural surface trails (such as ORV trails)	Yes	Yes	Yes

 

[Old Rocks]

Only if you use a lot of solar, wind, etc.
Since coal is actually the main source of electricity, then GHG emissions are much higher with EVs.

Where have you been the last few years? Coal is rapidly declining and will continue to do so.

Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

The major fuel/energy sources and their contribution to annual U.S. electricity generation.

www.eia.gov

 

[Old Rocks]

My point is how US car makers are running propaganda campaigns.
Motorcycles are such a tiny market in comparison, they obviously can't do that.
But you should already have noticed.
Like with the image of the US pickup truck, "rolling coal".

The point is the EPA is fine with these US made diesel trucks spewing soot, but then sued VW for billions over them getting over 56 mpg instead of the 34 mpg they were supposed to get.
That is because the US trucks have blueDEF injectors that only make the pollution worse, but not detectable on tests.
The whole thing is a con game.
That should be obvious.
You don't have to have an engineering degree to know the EPA is lying to us and just trying to help US car/truck sales.

To do that, you have to alter the environmental controls on that engine. That is a criminal offense as per Federal regulations. Were I to see one of these, I will get their license number and report them.