The Baseball Hall of Fame has to fix things

martybegan

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With the 2014 Hall of Fame Election, one thing is clear. The PED era sluggers and pitchers will be clogging the ballot for the next decade or so. There are enough people who don't care about PED's to keep them on the ballot, and enough people who refuse to vote for ANYONE even remotely connected to PED's to prevent the know guilty and the accused from ever getting in for the near future.

What that does is screw over those guys who took years to work their way up the chain to getting elected. It also screws over guys like Piazza and Bagwell who are under suspicion for the simple fact that they are/were big guys.

The Hall has to take care of business, by either 1) disqualify those who have been proven, either via testing or testimony, and 2) instruct the writers that PED suspicion is not a criteria to be considered in the voting

or they need to say PED's in general should not be considered.
 

LA RAM FAN

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of course it needs to fix things.keeping rose out of it is a travesty of justice.
 

protectionist

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With the 2014 Hall of Fame Election, one thing is clear. The PED era sluggers and pitchers will be clogging the ballot for the next decade or so. There are enough people who don't care about PED's to keep them on the ballot, and enough people who refuse to vote for ANYONE even remotely connected to PED's to prevent the know guilty and the accused from ever getting in for the near future.

What that does is screw over those guys who took years to work their way up the chain to getting elected. It also screws over guys like Piazza and Bagwell who are under suspicion for the simple fact that they are/were big guys.

The Hall has to take care of business, by either 1) disqualify those who have been proven, either via testing or testimony, and 2) instruct the writers that PED suspicion is not a criteria to be considered in the voting

or they need to say PED's in general should not be considered.
As in all issues of justice, suspicion alone is not a cause for punishment. In America, we always (or at least strive to) go by innocent until PROVEN guilty. What one's definiton of proof is may vary, of course, but I have to disagree with you that your last option is a possible choice.

No, I don't think so. Of course PEDs DO NEED to be considered, ALWAYS, and if/whenever a player is found to have used them, that immediately disqualifies him from not only being selected to the hall of fame, but also from having performance records, period.

The ONLY RECORDS that a proven PED player can have is the following >>

1. The team(s) they played for.

2. The years they played.

3. The field position they played.

Nothing else.

A writer for the Tampa Bay Times (Marc Topkin) had a copy of his ballot published in the newspaper. It showed selections for Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Roger Clemens. This is preposterous, and what a gut punch to players like Lee Smith, Jack Morris, and Don Mattingly who earned their right the hard and honest way.
 

JakeStarkey

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One, a qualified voter is his own judge of the requirements necessary for the HoF.

Two, no tainted PED player (and, yes, suspicion is enough) should ever be elected.

Three, Rose must wait until after death for inclusion into the HoF.

Four, keeping Morris out and even more so Biggio demonstrates the weaknesses in the system.
 
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deaddogseye

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One, a qualified voter his own judge of the requirements necessary for the HoF.

Two, no tainted PED player (and, yes, suspicion is enough) should ever be elected.

Three, Rose must wait until after death for inclusion into the HoF.

Four, keeping Morris out and even more so Biggio demonstrates the weaknesses in the system.
But Biggio will get in next year. Morris is totally borderline - a lot of people don think he belongs; me included

I think the voting works just fine and shouldnt be messed with . it sure gets a lot of attention which is a good thing.

if i were going to change something id have them vote every 3 or even 5 years. as a compromise i might even agree to allow for more than 10 choices (and also wouldnt let guys hang a round for 15 ballots or 45 years. if this had been the case marginal guys like blyleven and larkin would be much less likely to get in. if they were always on a ballot as tough as this years, they definitely wouldnt get in
 
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martybegan

martybegan

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One, a qualified voter his own judge of the requirements necessary for the HoF.

Two, no tainted PED player (and, yes, suspicion is enough) should ever be elected.

Three, Rose must wait until after death for inclusion into the HoF.

Four, keeping Morris out and even more so Biggio demonstrates the weaknesses in the system.
But Biggio will get in next year. Morris is totally borderline - a lot of people don think he belongs; me included

I think the voting works just fine and shouldnt be messed with . it sure gets a lot of attention which is a good thing.

if i were going to change something id have them vote every 3 or even 5 years. as a compromise i might even agree to allow for more than 10 choices (and also wouldnt let guys hang a round for 15 ballots or 45 years. if this had been the case marginal guys like blyleven and larkin would be much less likely to get in. if they were always on a ballot as tough as this years, they definitely wouldnt get in
Next year you will have Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, and John Smoltz eligible. Biggio may suffer again because of the logjam.
 

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(1) Sports writers are wierd ducks to start with. Spend your life giving adulation to people who play childrens' games? I realize somebody has to do it, but that doesn't make it normal. Their judgment is, by definition, suspect.

(2) It may be time to put some quantitative analysis into the system, to ensure that the voting is not too slanted by personalities. I'm sure some hotshot statistician could develop a program that evaluates everyone fairly on the basis of actual accomplishments. Maybe isolate the ten most "worthy" by stats, then make the voters choose among those ten people.

(3) Suspicion? Are you shitting me? Unless there is a reliable determination of fact that they have used PED's, evaluate them on the basis of their performance.

The steroids phenomenon as applied to baseball is too wierd, in any event. Baseball players were always told that "big muscles hurt your performance." Even into the '80's, they were told NOT to lift weights or try to build big muscles. That's why baseball ignored the phenomenon (which was rampant in professional football - e.g., the Pittsburgh Steelers) rather than implementating controls, because they thought that no smart ballplayer would be interested. It wasn't until Canseco and Maguire started hitting prodigious numbers of home runs in Oakland that any baseball players even considered juicing themselves.

You can't just say that some players' accomplishments mean something and others are "illegitimate." Bonds would have made the HOF even if he had died in an auto accident before he set the HR record. Vote on them based on performance and let God sort out who cheated.
 

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If you are going to let in the PED cheaters you need to let in the gambling cheaters first.....Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose
 
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martybegan

martybegan

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If you are going to let in the PED cheaters you need to let in the gambling cheaters first.....Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose
Not so, if they did the PED's when Baseball was very ambiguous about PED's being against the rules of the game.

The black sox knew throwing the games were wrong and against the rules, and Rose knew he couldnt bet on baseball and the MLB has a zero tolerance policy on it(the result of the Black sox scandal).

One also has to realize that the Black sox were paid to throw the series, PED use is to win games, and while it ruins the integrity of the stats, it is less impacting on the integrity of the game (i.e. people do them to hit more homeruns pitch more strikeouts, not less.)
 
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martybegan

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(1) Sports writers are wierd ducks to start with. Spend your life giving adulation to people who play childrens' games? I realize somebody has to do it, but that doesn't make it normal. Their judgment is, by definition, suspect.

(2) It may be time to put some quantitative analysis into the system, to ensure that the voting is not too slanted by personalities. I'm sure some hotshot statistician could develop a program that evaluates everyone fairly on the basis of actual accomplishments. Maybe isolate the ten most "worthy" by stats, then make the voters choose among those ten people.

(3) Suspicion? Are you shitting me? Unless there is a reliable determination of fact that they have used PED's, evaluate them on the basis of their performance.

The steroids phenomenon as applied to baseball is too wierd, in any event. Baseball players were always told that "big muscles hurt your performance." Even into the '80's, they were told NOT to lift weights or try to build big muscles. That's why baseball ignored the phenomenon (which was rampant in professional football - e.g., the Pittsburgh Steelers) rather than implementating controls, because they thought that no smart ballplayer would be interested. It wasn't until Canseco and Maguire started hitting prodigious numbers of home runs in Oakland that any baseball players even considered juicing themselves.

You can't just say that some players' accomplishments mean something and others are "illegitimate." Bonds would have made the HOF even if he had died in an auto accident before he set the HR record. Vote on them based on performance and let God sort out who cheated.
The issue with baseball is there is a sort of reference for certain statistics that is not seen in other sports. You dont see the myriad of statistical analysis seen in baseball in things like football, hockey, and basketball. I suppose it has to to with the one on one nature of the pitcher/batter duel, even though baseball is a team sport.

Steriod and HGH use was twofold, it aided in recovery time, and allowed guys to bulk up in a way that increased thier bat speed, or the velocity in pitching.
 

rightwinger

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If you are going to let in the PED cheaters you need to let in the gambling cheaters first.....Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose
Not so, if they did the PED's when Baseball was very ambiguous about PED's being against the rules of the game.

The black sox knew throwing the games were wrong and against the rules, and Rose knew he couldnt bet on baseball and the MLB has a zero tolerance policy on it(the result of the Black sox scandal).

One also has to realize that the Black sox were paid to throw the series, PED use is to win games, and while it ruins the integrity of the stats, it is less impacting on the integrity of the game (i.e. people do them to hit more homeruns pitch more strikeouts, not less.)
Cheaters are cheaters

Rose was banned from baseball because his gambling "might" cause him to cheat
Shoeless Joe took money from gamblers but put up big numbers in the Series

Bonds, Clemmons, Sosa and company actually DID cheat and received monster contracts for inflated performance numbers

PEDS impact more than stats. A juiced player is winning games that should have been lost. A juiced player gets a roster spot and the expense of a clean player. A juiced player gets million dollar contracts at the expense of the clean players
 
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martybegan

martybegan

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If you are going to let in the PED cheaters you need to let in the gambling cheaters first.....Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose
Not so, if they did the PED's when Baseball was very ambiguous about PED's being against the rules of the game.

The black sox knew throwing the games were wrong and against the rules, and Rose knew he couldnt bet on baseball and the MLB has a zero tolerance policy on it(the result of the Black sox scandal).

One also has to realize that the Black sox were paid to throw the series, PED use is to win games, and while it ruins the integrity of the stats, it is less impacting on the integrity of the game (i.e. people do them to hit more homeruns pitch more strikeouts, not less.)
Cheaters are cheaters

Rose was banned from baseball because his gambling "might" cause him to cheat
Shoeless Joe took money from gamblers but put up big numbers in the Series

Bonds, Clemmons, Sosa and company actually DID cheat and received monster contracts for inflated performance numbers

PEDS impact more than stats. A juiced player is winning games that should have been lost. A juiced player gets a roster spot and the expense of a clean player. A juiced player gets million dollar contracts at the expense of the clean players
The sin of Jackson was to place the impartial outcome of the game based on skill in doubt. Rose fell victim to Baseballs anti-gambling culture.

The PED guys did what they did to IMPROVE thier talents, something sports forgives far more than trying to change the outcome of the game by intent, especially by losing intentionally.
 

rightwinger

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Not so, if they did the PED's when Baseball was very ambiguous about PED's being against the rules of the game.

The black sox knew throwing the games were wrong and against the rules, and Rose knew he couldnt bet on baseball and the MLB has a zero tolerance policy on it(the result of the Black sox scandal).

One also has to realize that the Black sox were paid to throw the series, PED use is to win games, and while it ruins the integrity of the stats, it is less impacting on the integrity of the game (i.e. people do them to hit more homeruns pitch more strikeouts, not less.)
Cheaters are cheaters

Rose was banned from baseball because his gambling "might" cause him to cheat
Shoeless Joe took money from gamblers but put up big numbers in the Series

Bonds, Clemmons, Sosa and company actually DID cheat and received monster contracts for inflated performance numbers

PEDS impact more than stats. A juiced player is winning games that should have been lost. A juiced player gets a roster spot and the expense of a clean player. A juiced player gets million dollar contracts at the expense of the clean players
The sin of Jackson was to place the impartial outcome of the game based on skill in doubt. Rose fell victim to Baseballs anti-gambling culture.

The PED guys did what they did to IMPROVE thier talents, something sports forgives far more than trying to change the outcome of the game by intent, especially by losing intentionally.
What they did was cheat

Those homeruns and strikeouts led to wins that were not deserved....that is cheating
Those homeruns and strikeouts let to massive contracts that were not deserved.....that is stealing

Keep them out of the HOF
 

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One, a qualified voter his own judge of the requirements necessary for the HoF.

Two, no tainted PED player (and, yes, suspicion is enough) should ever be elected.

Three, Rose must wait until after death for inclusion into the HoF.

Four, keeping Morris out and even more so Biggio demonstrates the weaknesses in the system.
But Biggio will get in next year. Morris is totally borderline - a lot of people don think he belongs; me included

I think the voting works just fine and shouldnt be messed with . it sure gets a lot of attention which is a good thing.

if i were going to change something id have them vote every 3 or even 5 years. as a compromise i might even agree to allow for more than 10 choices (and also wouldnt let guys hang a round for 15 ballots or 45 years. if this had been the case marginal guys like blyleven and larkin would be much less likely to get in. if they were always on a ballot as tough as this years, they definitely wouldnt get in
Morris will have to wait for the Veterans Committee (he should have been selected now, if it were me).

Biggio will have tough competition next year, though I think Pedro Martinez will not make it until year three or four.
 

rightwinger

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One, a qualified voter his own judge of the requirements necessary for the HoF.

Two, no tainted PED player (and, yes, suspicion is enough) should ever be elected.

Three, Rose must wait until after death for inclusion into the HoF.

Four, keeping Morris out and even more so Biggio demonstrates the weaknesses in the system.
But Biggio will get in next year. Morris is totally borderline - a lot of people don think he belongs; me included

I think the voting works just fine and shouldnt be messed with . it sure gets a lot of attention which is a good thing.

if i were going to change something id have them vote every 3 or even 5 years. as a compromise i might even agree to allow for more than 10 choices (and also wouldnt let guys hang a round for 15 ballots or 45 years. if this had been the case marginal guys like blyleven and larkin would be much less likely to get in. if they were always on a ballot as tough as this years, they definitely wouldnt get in
Morris will have to wait for the Veterans Committee (he should have been selected now, if it were me).

Biggio will have tough competition next year, though I think Pedro Martinez will not make it until year three or four.
Pedro is guaranteed first ballot

Better pitcher than Glavine who made it first time
 

Papageorgio

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If you are going to let in the PED cheaters you need to let in the gambling cheaters first.....Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose
Not so, if they did the PED's when Baseball was very ambiguous about PED's being against the rules of the game.

The black sox knew throwing the games were wrong and against the rules, and Rose knew he couldnt bet on baseball and the MLB has a zero tolerance policy on it(the result of the Black sox scandal).

One also has to realize that the Black sox were paid to throw the series, PED use is to win games, and while it ruins the integrity of the stats, it is less impacting on the integrity of the game (i.e. people do them to hit more homeruns pitch more strikeouts, not less.)
Cheaters are cheaters

Rose was banned from baseball because his gambling "might" cause him to cheat
Shoeless Joe took money from gamblers but put up big numbers in the Series

Bonds, Clemmons, Sosa and company actually DID cheat and received monster contracts for inflated performance numbers

PEDS impact more than stats. A juiced player is winning games that should have been lost. A juiced player gets a roster spot and the expense of a clean player. A juiced player gets million dollar contracts at the expense of the clean players
Rose DID gamble on baseball, not might.

Jackson TOOK money to throw games.

Bonds, Clemens, Sosa took PED's when their were no rules to prevent them from taking them. Baseball created the issue. I'm curious why football and basketball players that took PED's have never been talked about, just baseball.
 
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martybegan

martybegan

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Cheaters are cheaters

Rose was banned from baseball because his gambling "might" cause him to cheat
Shoeless Joe took money from gamblers but put up big numbers in the Series

Bonds, Clemmons, Sosa and company actually DID cheat and received monster contracts for inflated performance numbers

PEDS impact more than stats. A juiced player is winning games that should have been lost. A juiced player gets a roster spot and the expense of a clean player. A juiced player gets million dollar contracts at the expense of the clean players
The sin of Jackson was to place the impartial outcome of the game based on skill in doubt. Rose fell victim to Baseballs anti-gambling culture.

The PED guys did what they did to IMPROVE thier talents, something sports forgives far more than trying to change the outcome of the game by intent, especially by losing intentionally.
What they did was cheat

Those homeruns and strikeouts led to wins that were not deserved....that is cheating
Those homeruns and strikeouts let to massive contracts that were not deserved.....that is stealing

Keep them out of the HOF
The problem was it wasn't "cheating" until later in the steroids era, because there were no baseball rules against it. It would have been like calling modern nutrition, exercise plans, and the fact that these guys can workout the whole year cheating compared to 30-50 years ago.

Ballplayers in the 50's and 60's had winter jobs, and had to shed 5-10 lbs every spring training, is the fact that the guys now don't have to do that cheating?
 
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martybegan

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Not so, if they did the PED's when Baseball was very ambiguous about PED's being against the rules of the game.

The black sox knew throwing the games were wrong and against the rules, and Rose knew he couldnt bet on baseball and the MLB has a zero tolerance policy on it(the result of the Black sox scandal).

One also has to realize that the Black sox were paid to throw the series, PED use is to win games, and while it ruins the integrity of the stats, it is less impacting on the integrity of the game (i.e. people do them to hit more homeruns pitch more strikeouts, not less.)
Cheaters are cheaters

Rose was banned from baseball because his gambling "might" cause him to cheat
Shoeless Joe took money from gamblers but put up big numbers in the Series

Bonds, Clemmons, Sosa and company actually DID cheat and received monster contracts for inflated performance numbers

PEDS impact more than stats. A juiced player is winning games that should have been lost. A juiced player gets a roster spot and the expense of a clean player. A juiced player gets million dollar contracts at the expense of the clean players
Rose DID gamble on baseball, not might.

Jackson TOOK money to throw games.

Bonds, Clemens, Sosa took PED's when their were no rules to prevent them from taking them. Baseball created the issue. I'm curious why football and basketball players that took PED's have never been talked about, just baseball.
Because baseball has a reverence for personal statistics not seen in the other sports.
 

rightwinger

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Not so, if they did the PED's when Baseball was very ambiguous about PED's being against the rules of the game.

The black sox knew throwing the games were wrong and against the rules, and Rose knew he couldnt bet on baseball and the MLB has a zero tolerance policy on it(the result of the Black sox scandal).

One also has to realize that the Black sox were paid to throw the series, PED use is to win games, and while it ruins the integrity of the stats, it is less impacting on the integrity of the game (i.e. people do them to hit more homeruns pitch more strikeouts, not less.)
Cheaters are cheaters

Rose was banned from baseball because his gambling "might" cause him to cheat
Shoeless Joe took money from gamblers but put up big numbers in the Series

Bonds, Clemmons, Sosa and company actually DID cheat and received monster contracts for inflated performance numbers

PEDS impact more than stats. A juiced player is winning games that should have been lost. A juiced player gets a roster spot and the expense of a clean player. A juiced player gets million dollar contracts at the expense of the clean players
Rose DID gamble on baseball, not might.

Jackson TOOK money to throw games.

Bonds, Clemens, Sosa took PED's when their were no rules to prevent them from taking them. Baseball created the issue. I'm curious why football and basketball players that took PED's have never been talked about, just baseball.
I didn't say gamble, I said cheat

Rose may have bet on games but was banned because it MIGHT lead him to cheat. There was no evidence that he did cheat to support his bets

Bonds, Clemens and Sosa did cheat. They broke the law taking an illegal substance. They won games because of their cheating

My point is that if you are going to ban Rose for 30 years because of gambling, you had better have the same outrage for the PED users. Their abuse affected the game more

I would also ban Selig from the HOF
 

Papageorgio

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Cheaters are cheaters

Rose was banned from baseball because his gambling "might" cause him to cheat
Shoeless Joe took money from gamblers but put up big numbers in the Series

Bonds, Clemmons, Sosa and company actually DID cheat and received monster contracts for inflated performance numbers

PEDS impact more than stats. A juiced player is winning games that should have been lost. A juiced player gets a roster spot and the expense of a clean player. A juiced player gets million dollar contracts at the expense of the clean players
Rose DID gamble on baseball, not might.

Jackson TOOK money to throw games.

Bonds, Clemens, Sosa took PED's when their were no rules to prevent them from taking them. Baseball created the issue. I'm curious why football and basketball players that took PED's have never been talked about, just baseball.
I didn't say gamble, I said cheat

Rose may have bet on games but was banned because it MIGHT lead him to cheat. There was no evidence that he did cheat to support his bets

Bonds, Clemens and Sosa did cheat. They broke the law taking an illegal substance. They won games because of their cheating

My point is that if you are going to ban Rose for 30 years because of gambling, you had better have the same outrage for the PED users. Their abuse affected the game more

I would also ban Selig from the HOF
HGH is not illegal if used through specific guidelines put forth through the FDA. So we don't know if any of them broke the law in their use of them. Just as you can't say Rose cheated, Jackson broke the law.
 

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