Terror In The Mall...may Come Here...do You Have Your Ccw?

[Luddly Neddite]

One difference some LEOs mentioned on another site I used to go to...any armed attack on that scale would be met by a large police response...it might take several minutes but in both cases the police in Kenya and Nairobi are not at the standard of U.S. police and not as well trained...and in a lot of cases not even armed...

Problem with this argument involves police tactics here in the U.S. The police get to the scene and wait outside until backup, in the form of their SWAT, arrives. This takes a looooooong time when lead is flying.

Look at the response to Columbine as an example.

The police are not there to protect the citizens.

 

[2aguy]

Problem with this argument involves police tactics here in the U.S. The police get to the scene and wait outside until backup, in the form of their SWAT, arrives. This takes a looooooong time when lead is flying.

Look at the response to Columbine as an example.

The police are not there to protect the citizens.

Actually, tactics have been updated...cops are now authorized to enter as soon as they arrive on scene...since, for the anti gunners out there, the sooner you get someone confronting the killer with a gun...the more lives are saved...analysis of the various shootings lead to the change in tactics...

 

[Brain357]

Of course if you look at statistics you are much more likely to be in an accidental shooting than murdered by a gun.

From the hysteria over the refugee kids in Texas and Arizona giving a virus to kids in the midwest, it appears they have no idea of the geography of their own country.

You do know they have been shipping those kids all over the country...right?

Isn't it odd, we get these guys in Atlanta and Connecticut and Oklahoma City and Colorado, yet what incites fear and gunslinging in the gullible is Nairobi and Mumbai....

guys...do you read any of the 2nd amendment posts here on U.S.....? We discuss threats both foreign and domestic...it is you anti gunners who say...."I have never been attacked and none of my friends have" so you therefore conclude all guns can safely be confiscated....you guys need the help....

and you know what is nice about Glocks, Sigs, M&Ps and Sprinfields....they work equally well against killers who are foreign or domestic....so all the bases are covered ...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Of course if you look at statistics you are much more likely to be in an accidental shooting than murdered by a gun.

From the hysteria over the refugee kids in Texas and Arizona giving a virus to kids in the midwest, it appears they have no idea of the geography of their own country.

You do know they have been shipping those kids all over the country...right?

Isn't it odd, we get these guys in Atlanta and Connecticut and Oklahoma City and Colorado, yet what incites fear and gunslinging in the gullible is Nairobi and Mumbai....

guys...do you read any of the 2nd amendment posts here on U.S.....? We discuss threats both foreign and domestic...it is you anti gunners who say...."I have never been attacked and none of my friends have" so you therefore conclude all guns can safely be confiscated....you guys need the help....

and you know what is nice about Glocks, Sigs, M&Ps and Sprinfields....they work equally well against killers who are foreign or domestic....so all the bases are covered ...

 

[Brain357]

The couple who killed the cops in Vegas went to a walmart after. The only person they shot there was the armed guy.

 

[Brain357]

Domestic Dispute Turns Into Deadly Shooting In Redford CBS Detroit

Of course if you look at statistics you are much more likely to be in an accidental shooting than murdered by a gun.

From the hysteria over the refugee kids in Texas and Arizona giving a virus to kids in the midwest, it appears they have no idea of the geography of their own country.

You do know they have been shipping those kids all over the country...right?

Isn't it odd, we get these guys in Atlanta and Connecticut and Oklahoma City and Colorado, yet what incites fear and gunslinging in the gullible is Nairobi and Mumbai....

guys...do you read any of the 2nd amendment posts here on U.S.....? We discuss threats both foreign and domestic...it is you anti gunners who say...."I have never been attacked and none of my friends have" so you therefore conclude all guns can safely be confiscated....you guys need the help....

and you know what is nice about Glocks, Sigs, M&Ps and Sprinfields....they work equally well against killers who are foreign or domestic....so all the bases are covered ...

 

[hoosier88]

My question - How do you know who the bad guys are? Or the good guys? In the chaos, gunfire, smoke, screaming & blood - if you can't ID the parties, no weapon is going to do you - nor anyone else - any good.

This is a common mistake...no one is suggesting that you go out and do a John McClane...this is simply about getting out of the mall...possibly with your children and wife in tow...Hopefully she would be armed as well...and as you are heading for the exit...if someone starts shooting at you...you can return fire to get clear...rather than having to just cower and wait for them to execute you...

As to the police...you don't shoot at them and Identify yourself...odds are you will be okay...accidents may happen in that situation...but it will still take police at least 4 minutes to get to the scene...who knows how long to move in and engage any attackers...and the attackers could very well be well armed with actual, automatic weapons and possibly grenades...

Do you want to face that with just your hands?

(My bold)

In the war movies, when it's time to infiltrate an enemy position, the good guys typically leave their guns & take their knife or garrote - because making noise (shooting) will alert the bad guys, & defeat the purpose of the infil. Handgun against full auto &/or grenades, IEDs, etc. is a v. bad matchup, if you're the one with the handgun. I'd say that you try to get away, especially if with your spouse & children. If it's just you, & you feel up to it, of course you can engage.

But the likely outcomes aren't good. Realistically, it's get away, arm up, & live to fight another day. Actually, if you can observe & get away, the SWAT team & other responders will need all the intel they can get - How many perps, how armed, do they move like trained military, etc.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, as I pointed out, the pistol on your hip would be there to help you and your family get clear of the mall or at least the vicinity of the attack...or if you are trapped and they are coming for you, you can at least fight back....

 

[2aguy]

Of course if you look at statistics you are much more likely to be in an accidental shooting than murdered by a gun.

And if you look at the statistics you are more likely to be murdered with hands and feet than with a rifle...

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

And you are more likely to be stabbed with a knife to death than with a rifle...

And you are more likely to be clubbed to death than killed with a rifle...

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Yep that's what we need, some cross eyed slack jaws with Rambo complex's firing wildly in a store full of people

We'll be sure and keep firearms out of the hands of liberals.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, this cartoon is exactly that...a cartoon based on gun grabbing stats from people with an irrational fear of firearms...for the gun grabbers out there...

TEN MYTHS ABOUT GUN CONTROL

MYTH 3:"Since a gun in a home is many times more likely to kill a family member than to stop a criminal, armed citizens are not a deterrent to crime."
This myth, stemming from a superficial "study" of firearm accidents in the Cleveland, Ohio, area, represents a comparison of 148 accidental deaths (including suicides) to the deaths of 23 intruders killed by home owners over a 16-year period. 2

Gross errors in this and similar "studies"--with even greater claimed ratios of harm to good--include: the assumption that a gun hasn't been used for protection unless an assailant dies; no distinction is made between handgun and long gun deaths; all accidental firearm fatalities were counted whether the deceased was part of the "family" or not; all accidents were counted whether they occurred in the home or not, while self-defense outside the home was excluded; almost half the self-defense uses of guns in the home were excluded on the grounds that the criminal intruder killed may not have been a total stranger to the home defender; suicides were sometimes counted and some self-defense shootings misclassified. Cleveland's experience with crime and accidents during the study period was atypical of the nation as a whole and of Cleveland since the mid-1970s. Moreover, in a later study, the same researchers noted that roughly 10% of killings by civilians are justifiable homicides. 3

The "guns in the home" myth has been repeated time and again by the media, and anti-gun academics continue to build on it. In 1993, Dr. Arthur Kellermann of Emory University and a number of colleagues presented a study that claimed to show that a home with a gun was much more likely to experience a homicide.4 However, Dr. Kellermann selected for his study only homes where homicides had taken place--ignoring the millions of homes with firearms where no harm is done--and a control group that was not representative of American households. By only looking at homes where homicides had occurred and failing to control for more pertinent variables, such as prior criminal record or histories of violence, Kellermann et al. skewed the results of this study. Prof. Kleck wrote that with the methodology used by Kellermann, one could prove that since diabetics are much more likely to possess insulin than non-diabetics, possession of insulin is a risk factor for diabetes. Even Dr. Kellermann admitted this in his study: "It is possible that reverse causation accounted for some of the association we observed between gun ownership and homicide." Law Professor Daniel D. Polsby went further, "Indeed the point is stronger than that: 'reverse causation' may account for most of the association between gun ownership and

homicide. Kellermann's data simply do not allow one to draw any conclusion."5

 

[2aguy]

And while we are at it the Friends and Family myth the gun grabbers love so much...

Nine Myths About Gun Control

* Myth #5 The "Friends and Family fallacy"

It is common for the public health advocates of gun bans to claim that most murders are of "friends and family". The medical literature includes many such false claims, that "most [murderers] would be considered law abiding citizens prior to their pulling the trigger" [9]and "most shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for protection." [10]

Not only do the data show that acquaintance and domestic homicide are a minority of homicides, [11] but the FBI's definition of acquaintance and domestic homicide requires only that the murderer knew or was related to the decedent. That dueling drug dealers are acquainted does not make them "friends". Over three- quarters of murderers have long histories of violence against not only their enemies and other "acquaintances," but also against their relatives. [12,13,14,15] Oddly, medical authors have no difficulty recognizing the violent histories of murderers when the topic is not gun control - "A history of violence is the best predictor of violence." [16] The perpetrators of acquaintance and domestic homicide are overwhelmingly vicious aberrants with long histories of violence inflicted upon those close to them. This reality belies the imagery of "friends and family" murdering each other in fits of passion simply because a gun was present "in the home."

 

[2aguy]

This is an interesting story from Israel...and their ability to carry pistols for protection...as civilians...against terrorists bent on mass killing of innocent people...using military weapons...

Shall Issue The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws

In Israel, a permit to own a handgun (which is granted to every law-abiding citizen) is equivalent to a permit to carry a handgun. In April 1984, three terrorists opened fire with automatic rifles and began throwing hand grenades at the busiest intersection in West Jerusalem. As the Los Angeles Times reported, "One of the attackers was killed in a hail of answering fire from the owners and customers of nearby shops." A wild firefight broke out with Israelis and the two remaining terrorists exchanges flurries of bullets until the police arrived and captured the terrorists. Fourteen people were wounded, and it was possible that in the chaos, some of the Israelis were accidentally wounded by "friendly fire." [116] But at the end of the day, no Israelis were dead, but one terrorist was, a superb result compared with what happens when victims are defenseless.

The next day, the surviving terrorists were presented to the media. They explained that they had planned to machine-gun a succession of crowded areas, fleeing before the police arrived. One terrorist complained indignantly that his bosses had not told him that Israeli citizens carry guns. [117]

In November 1993, a vicious racist shot twenty-two unarmed, defenseless victims on the Long Island Railroad. Four months later, a terrorist group, determined to sabotage the new peace accord between Israel and the Palestinians attempted to perpetrate a mass murder of people using public transportation in Israel. The Associated Press reports:

• 
  A Palestinian opened fire with a submachine gun at a bus stop near the port of Ashod today, killing one Israeli and wounding four before being shot to death by bystanders, officials said...
  National police spokesman Erich Bar-Chen said today's attacker, who was armed with an Uzi submachine guns, was shot and killed by a civilian and a soldier who were at the bus stop and hitchhiking post used by soldiers. Ashod is 15 miles south of Tel Aviv and 15 miles north of the Gaza Strip. [118]

It seems clear that, at the least, carry permits for licensed, trained citizens will save lives when madmen or terrorists attempt mass murder in public places. Accordingly, opponents of carry licenses must bear the burden of demonstrating that the number of lives lost from the issuance of carry licenses will outweigh the lives saved during attempted massacres. As detailed above, opponents of carry reform cannot carry their burden of proof. There is no evidence to suggest that carry reform will cause any increase in murder, let alone an increase so large as to outweigh the significant number of lives that could be saved by allowing people like Doctor Suzanna Gratia to help protect the public.

 

[2aguy]

I'm watching the documentary now...wow...watching these people go through their day, with children in tow, not knowing what was about to happen....


and it starts...a grenade then gunfire....you can see the tracers in the video...

Kids as young as four right in the middle of this...

a French mother running to gather up her 2 small children...

you see two people...hunkered behind the counter of he burger stand...the gunmen slowly walks up and shoots the man and his wife...the man talked about how young he killer was...

Definitely a place to have had a pistol...he could have killed he asshole...

The two guys on camera were just waiting to be shot by someone with a pistol...they were casually strolling the mall looking for victims...

They saw people falling one after another...in the rooftop parking lot....

the gunman released Muslims...and killed an old woman...

 

[Pogo]

Some just never learn...

 

[Brain357]

And most likely to be killed by a handgun.

Of course if you look at statistics you are much more likely to be in an accidental shooting than murdered by a gun.

And if you look at the statistics you are more likely to be murdered with hands and feet than with a rifle...

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

And you are more likely to be stabbed with a knife to death than with a rifle...

And you are more likely to be clubbed to death than killed with a rifle...

 

[2aguy]

all those,people standing around and not one gun among them....a lot of people...and a few,killers....

A killer goes,to the meat counter where 20 people were hiding and the killers just started killing those people

and not one gun among them....

Yeah...gun control sure worked here....

 

[2aguy]

All those,people hiding....a woman with two little girls hiding in a kiosk display in the middle of the mall...a2 assholes approach...and kill a man hiding under a display elephant....if he had had a pistol he might be alive...


4 killers control hundreds of people because they were unarmed....

 

[2aguy]

the police arrive...but hide outside because they heard gunfire in the mall....so 4 killers, hundreds of people unarmed and no help is coming...the government unable to protect them...

The guy under the elephant was still alive writhing on the floor...which was covered in his blood...

the married couple in the burger stand behind the counter....looks like he lived....she died....

 

[2aguy]

these guys are just casually strolling through the mall...the killers go back to the grocery store...and say if any children are alive they can leave...the French woman gets up and leads,the children out, hers and a few others...and another Muslim is released....