Ten Gun Myths and Memes-- Shot Down

[Spoonman]

Uncensored -

If someone was beaten to death by a metal bar - that would be a homicide.

And UK homicide rates are a tiny fracton of those in the US. I can post them if you like.

and they were a tiny fraction before gun control. gun control has done nothing to reduce them at a faster rate then has been achieved with no gun control in the usa

 

[Spoonman]

No Joe, Western Europe, Canada and Japan are not valid comparisons. They do not have the 2nd Amendment and never had anything like the percentage of citizens that own guns. Switzerland would be a better choice.

You have to laugh, don't you?

Pick the country in the world that is most like the US - that is very large, has a massive population, is urbanized, a democracy, and a western life style.

Answer: Switzerland.

When I see things like I do realise that there is very little chance of any sensible discussion.

and switzerland has always had low murder rates, even with out gun control. so your point is?

 

[Saigon]

Uncensored -

If someone was beaten to death by a metal bar - that would be a homicide.

And UK homicide rates are a tiny fracton of those in the US. I can post them if you like.

Nope, UK murder rates are slightly lower per capita. Your meme is "gun homicide," carefully avoiding other forms.

Ok, here they are...

USA 4.8 per 100,000

UK 1.2 per 100,000.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the US has FOUR TIMES the total homicide rate of the US.

Again - which country has more effective laws?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Uncensored -

Airports in the UK are very heavily patrolled these days - but how heavily also varies. If there is an alert of some kind it really is overwhelming - other times it's just a few guys here and there, but always with serious weapons.

But out in the streets....not many guns to be seen anywhere.

True. We have a plant in Coventry, and I go over regularly. I don't see armed police on the streets, but they are all over in both the airports and train stations.

 

[Spoonman]

Yesterday we established very clearly how effective gun laws have been in Canada and the UK, so it's well worth trying to establish some facts we can all agree upon if possible.

Have you determined how well Gun Control Laws have been in Mexico? Mexico ranks top 10 in strictest gun control laws in the world.

Mexico is third world country with a weak central government.

While some conservatives might want to emulate it, I don't.

The valid comparisons are other first world countries- Western Europe, Canada and Japan.

Compared to them (all with strong social welfare states, strong gun laws and a penal system not based on profit) we are doing very poorly in terms of crime and violence.

no, actually we are reducing our rates without gun control as fast as they are with

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Mexico is third world country with a weak central government. .

That's why comparing Mexico and Chicago is valid. They are both failed states (I don't mean "state" as in a US State).

 

[Spoonman]

Uncensored -

If someone was beaten to death by a metal bar - that would be a homicide.

And UK homicide rates are a tiny fracton of those in the US. I can post them if you like.

Nope, UK murder rates are slightly lower per capita. Your meme is "gun homicide," carefully avoiding other forms.

Ok, here they are...

USA 4.8 per 100,000

UK 1.2 per 100,000.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the US has FOUR TIMES the total homicide rate of the US.

Again - which country has more effective laws?

meaningless data to this conversation because their rate was low before gun control.

 

[Saigon]

meaningless data to this conversation because their rate was low before gun control.

Right - this makes the US look bad, so we better ignore it.

The important thing is - NEVER look at statistics.

 

[Spoonman]

meaningless data to this conversation because their rate was low before gun control.

Right - this makes the US look bad, so we better ignore it.

The important thing is - NEVER look at statistics.

it means their gun laws have been no more effective than our lack of gun laws

 

[Saigon]

Spoonman -

The UK homicide rates at their lowest level since 1983.

The UK homicide rate is 1/4 that of the US.

The UK has had ONE mass shooting. ONE.

The UK had 41 gun-related homicides last year.

You choice is to learn from that, or ignore the lesson.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Saigon, is there a reason you don't compare the Murder rates of NON-FAILED States/Cities/Towns to the UK?

For instance, Utah/Vermont have sub 1.5 murder rates and they have the right to free carry of any weapon they choose.

The funny part is, you really can't COMPARE the US to ANOTHER COUNTRY. So we are we even doing that?

You need to get LOCAL when it comes to the United States. We have this thing called FEDERALISM. The LAWS of each of the 50 States are DIFFERENT. Also, the LAWS of every CITY/TOWN are also different. We are NOT a UNITARY government. In a UNITARY government, the laws only vary microscopically.

So, keeping that in mind. How are those gun control laws working in Chicago, Rochester and Detroit?

The funny part is, you really can't COMPARE the US to ANOTHER COUNTRY. So we are we even doing that?

You need to get LOCAL when it comes to the United States. We have this thing called FEDERALISM. The LAWS of each of the 50 States are DIFFERENT. Also, the LAWS of every CITY/TOWN are also different. We are NOT a UNITARY government. In a UNITARY government, the laws only vary microscopically.

So, keeping that in mind. How are those gun control laws working in Chicago, Rochester and Detroit?

The funny part is, you really can't COMPARE the US to ANOTHER COUNTRY. So we are we even doing that?

You need to get LOCAL when it comes to the United States. We have this thing called FEDERALISM. The LAWS of each of the 50 States are DIFFERENT. Also, the LAWS of every CITY/TOWN are also different. We are NOT a UNITARY government. In a UNITARY government, the laws only vary microscopically.

So, keeping that in mind. How are those gun control laws working in Chicago, Rochester and Detroit?

The funny part is, you really can't COMPARE the US to ANOTHER COUNTRY. So we are we even doing that?

You need to get LOCAL when it comes to the United States. We have this thing called FEDERALISM. The LAWS of each of the 50 States are DIFFERENT. Also, the LAWS of every CITY/TOWN are also different. We are NOT a UNITARY government. In a UNITARY government, the laws only vary microscopically.

So, keeping that in mind. How are those gun control laws working in Chicago, Rochester and Detroit?

The funny part is, you really can't COMPARE the US to ANOTHER COUNTRY. So we are we even doing that?

You need to get LOCAL when it comes to the United States. We have this thing called FEDERALISM. The LAWS of each of the 50 States are DIFFERENT. Also, the LAWS of every CITY/TOWN are also different. We are NOT a UNITARY government. In a UNITARY government, the laws only vary microscopically.

So, keeping that in mind. How are those gun control laws working in Chicago, Rochester and Detroit?

The funny part is, you really can't COMPARE the US to ANOTHER COUNTRY. So we are we even doing that?

You need to get LOCAL when it comes to the United States. We have this thing called FEDERALISM. The LAWS of each of the 50 States are DIFFERENT. Also, the LAWS of every CITY/TOWN are also different. We are NOT a UNITARY government. In a UNITARY government, the laws only vary microscopically.

So, keeping that in mind. How are those gun control laws working in Chicago, Rochester and Detroit?

 

[Vandalshandle]

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how many gun homicides they have in the UK, or Australia. I tend to focus on what happened to my realtor in Dallas in 1982, when some guy walked into a bar, and shot and killed her, and five other women sitting at the bar, because one of them had rebuffed him. I am concerned about what I perosnally saw in 1965, which was a drunk, thrown out of a bar in Atlanta, who returned with a gun and killed 5 patrons, and the bartender. I tend to think in terms of what I saw on the streets of Vegas in 1997, which was a drive by shooting right off the strip on Flamingo Rd. I also remember the two times that I was sitting on my apartment balcony in Reno in 1996 when I heard gunshots fired, and in both cases, read the next day of gang related shootings in the nieghborhood. Could all of these shootings been avoided if gun registration and background checks were in force? Of course not. Could some of them been prevented? Yes.

I am a sheriff's Auxcillary Volunteer in my community. Three weeks ago, we did a background check on a guy who wanted to attend our acadamy. We discovered a history of mental illness, and turned him down. However, such history of mental illness did not prevent him from buying a gun, and he made threats against us, which were relayed to us. We had to lock down the facility, and were told not to leave the building until he was apprehended. They did so, and took him to a hospital under arrest. He was bi-polar, and dangerous, when not taking his meds.

 

[Bigfoot]

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how many gun homicides they have in the UK, or Australia. I tend to focus on what happened to my realtor in Dallas in 1982, when some guy walked into a bar, and shot and killed her, and five other women sitting at the bar, because one of them had rebuffed him. I am concerned about what I perosnally saw in 1965, which was a drunk, thrown out of a bar in Atlanta, who returned with a gun and killed 5 patrons, and the bartender. I tend to think in terms of what I saw on the streets of Vegas in 1997, which was a drive by shooting right off the strip on Flamingo Rd. I also remember the two times that I was sitting on my apartment balcony in Reno in 1996 when I heard gunshots fired, and in both cases, read the next day of gang related shootings in the nieghborhood. Could all of these shootings been avoided if gun registration and background checks were in force? Of course not. Could some of them been prevented? Yes.

I am a sheriff's Auxcillary Volunteer in my community. Three weeks ago, we did a background check on a guy who wanted to attend our acadamy. We discovered a history of mental illness, and turned him down. However, such history of mental illness did not prevent him from buying a gun, and he made threats against us, which were relayed to us. We had to lock down the facility, and were told not to leave the building until he was apprehended. They did so, and took him to a hospital under arrest. He was bi-polar, and dangerous, when not taking his meds.

Yeah, sure.

 

[Spoonman]

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how many gun homicides they have in the UK, or Australia. I tend to focus on what happened to my realtor in Dallas in 1982, when some guy walked into a bar, and shot and killed her, and five other women sitting at the bar, because one of them had rebuffed him. I am concerned about what I perosnally saw in 1965, which was a drunk, thrown out of a bar in Atlanta, who returned with a gun and killed 5 patrons, and the bartender. I tend to think in terms of what I saw on the streets of Vegas in 1997, which was a drive by shooting right off the strip on Flamingo Rd. I also remember the two times that I was sitting on my apartment balcony in Reno in 1996 when I heard gunshots fired, and in both cases, read the next day of gang related shootings in the nieghborhood. Could all of these shootings been avoided if gun registration and background checks were in force? Of course not. Could some of them been prevented? Yes.

I am a sheriff's Auxcillary Volunteer in my community. Three weeks ago, we did a background check on a guy who wanted to attend our acadamy. We discovered a history of mental illness, and turned him down. However, such history of mental illness did not prevent him from buying a gun, and he made threats against us, which were relayed to us. We had to lock down the facility, and were told not to leave the building until he was apprehended. They did so, and took him to a hospital under arrest. He was bi-polar, and dangerous, when not taking his meds.

so why don;t you take up a cause to get people off the streets when their issues have been identified? and there is a problem with background checks. you've identified a problem and did nothing about it. go ahead and ban guns, if he wants one he'll still get one. the black market doesn do background checks. and what's to stop him from wacking you with a pipe?

you have identified a problem and you are letting it rome the streets unattended. you are the problem

 

[Vandalshandle]

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how many gun homicides they have in the UK, or Australia. I tend to focus on what happened to my realtor in Dallas in 1982, when some guy walked into a bar, and shot and killed her, and five other women sitting at the bar, because one of them had rebuffed him. I am concerned about what I perosnally saw in 1965, which was a drunk, thrown out of a bar in Atlanta, who returned with a gun and killed 5 patrons, and the bartender. I tend to think in terms of what I saw on the streets of Vegas in 1997, which was a drive by shooting right off the strip on Flamingo Rd. I also remember the two times that I was sitting on my apartment balcony in Reno in 1996 when I heard gunshots fired, and in both cases, read the next day of gang related shootings in the nieghborhood. Could all of these shootings been avoided if gun registration and background checks were in force? Of course not. Could some of them been prevented? Yes.

I am a sheriff's Auxcillary Volunteer in my community. Three weeks ago, we did a background check on a guy who wanted to attend our acadamy. We discovered a history of mental illness, and turned him down. However, such history of mental illness did not prevent him from buying a gun, and he made threats against us, which were relayed to us. We had to lock down the facility, and were told not to leave the building until he was apprehended. They did so, and took him to a hospital under arrest. He was bi-polar, and dangerous, when not taking his meds.

so why don;t you take up a cause to get people off the streets when their issues have been identified? and there is a problem with background checks. you've identified a problem and did nothing about it. go ahead and ban guns, if he wants one he'll still get one. the black market doesn do background checks. and what's to stop him from wacking you with a pipe?

you have identified a problem and you are letting it rome the streets unattended. you are the problem

Spoon, you really have to get past this belief system you have that everyone who wants some common sense regulation of guns wants to "ban guns".

Second, keeping people off the street who are mentally ill, and requiring background checks and registration are not mutually exclusive concepts. There is no reason whyc we can not do both, or at least try.

 

[Spoonman]

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how many gun homicides they have in the UK, or Australia. I tend to focus on what happened to my realtor in Dallas in 1982, when some guy walked into a bar, and shot and killed her, and five other women sitting at the bar, because one of them had rebuffed him. I am concerned about what I perosnally saw in 1965, which was a drunk, thrown out of a bar in Atlanta, who returned with a gun and killed 5 patrons, and the bartender. I tend to think in terms of what I saw on the streets of Vegas in 1997, which was a drive by shooting right off the strip on Flamingo Rd. I also remember the two times that I was sitting on my apartment balcony in Reno in 1996 when I heard gunshots fired, and in both cases, read the next day of gang related shootings in the nieghborhood. Could all of these shootings been avoided if gun registration and background checks were in force? Of course not. Could some of them been prevented? Yes.

I am a sheriff's Auxcillary Volunteer in my community. Three weeks ago, we did a background check on a guy who wanted to attend our acadamy. We discovered a history of mental illness, and turned him down. However, such history of mental illness did not prevent him from buying a gun, and he made threats against us, which were relayed to us. We had to lock down the facility, and were told not to leave the building until he was apprehended. They did so, and took him to a hospital under arrest. He was bi-polar, and dangerous, when not taking his meds.

so why don;t you take up a cause to get people off the streets when their issues have been identified? and there is a problem with background checks. you've identified a problem and did nothing about it. go ahead and ban guns, if he wants one he'll still get one. the black market doesn do background checks. and what's to stop him from wacking you with a pipe?

you have identified a problem and you are letting it rome the streets unattended. you are the problem

Spoon, you really have to get past this belief system you have that everyone who wants some common sense regulation of guns wants to "ban guns".

Second, keeping people off the street who are mentally ill, and requiring background checks and registration are not mutually exclusive concepts. There is no reason whyc we can not do both, or at least try.

when you sell that concept to the liberals and the ACLU, lets talk about it. also remember this, the basis of the prosecution at the nuremberg trials was that they made lists of those the felt were mentally incompetent and then took actions on those lists. the prosecution won

 

[Pogo]

Keep going, I have more neg reps available.

Actually no you don't. Not until tomorrow night. Want me to give you a wake-up call?

See, there it is again, you admit you're trying to intimidate free speech. I'm not surprised considering the source, but I'm dumbfounded that you think that would actually ever work. What planet do you people come from where the world works that way, where your subjects just bend over in fear of the mighty Neg? Planet Narcississium? But thanks for putting that in writing again, I can use it later.

Until tomorrow then sweetie. We've got all night to rock and roll...

Wanna bet?

Hee hee. You seem to have a gambling fixation (which also explains your posts) -- everything is "wanna bet" this and "wanna bet" that, in a medium where no kind of currency can be exchanged anyway (which also explains your logic).

But yes, technically you need not wait the 48 hours. Go ahead. Make my day.

 

[The Rabbi]

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how many gun homicides they have in the UK, or Australia. I tend to focus on what happened to my realtor in Dallas in 1982, when some guy walked into a bar, and shot and killed her, and five other women sitting at the bar, because one of them had rebuffed him. I am concerned about what I perosnally saw in 1965, which was a drunk, thrown out of a bar in Atlanta, who returned with a gun and killed 5 patrons, and the bartender. I tend to think in terms of what I saw on the streets of Vegas in 1997, which was a drive by shooting right off the strip on Flamingo Rd. I also remember the two times that I was sitting on my apartment balcony in Reno in 1996 when I heard gunshots fired, and in both cases, read the next day of gang related shootings in the nieghborhood. Could all of these shootings been avoided if gun registration and background checks were in force? Of course not. Could some of them been prevented? Yes.

What law would have stopped all of those incidents, which were crimes in and of themselves? What makes you think any of them would have been prevented?

 

[theHawk]

Okay..............so you gun rights people have said that guns don't kill people, but rather that people kill people.

Don't you think that background checks should be implemented then? We'd be able to identify those that may be a bit off who think it's okay to kill others. Even if it means a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, or even a pillow to smother them.

Background checks would help a great deal. Even LaPierre said it was a good idea in the late 90's, but then he decided to go against what he'd said, because Obama said it was a sound idea.

I thought background checks are already implemented?

What type of people don't pass a background check anyway?

Why are they free citizens if they can't be trusted with owning a gun?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yesterday we established very clearly how effective gun laws have been in Canada and the UK, so it's well worth trying to establish some facts we can all agree upon if possible.

Have you determined how well Gun Control Laws have been in Mexico? Mexico ranks top 10 in strictest gun control laws in the world.

Mexico is third world country with a weak central government.

While some conservatives might want to emulate it, I don't.

The valid comparisons are other first world countries- Western Europe, Canada and Japan.

Compared to them (all with strong social welfare states, strong gun laws and a penal system not based on profit) we are doing very poorly in terms of crime and violence.

Mexico only has a weak central government if we ignore the fact that the federal government has the authority to send the Army anywhere in the country to enforce its version of the law.