Teabaggers exposed. No REAL opposition to overreaching government

[Oddball]

Hey DUD, you just proved you are a real Jethro...people CAN and WILL be stopped and detained to check for proper documentation based on nothing other than their appearance.

Which section of the law says that?...Put up or shut up.

For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.

WOW DUD, how 'Jethro' of me. How could I ever possibly suspect that a beloved and worshiped agent of the government would EVER put 'reasonable suspicion' ahead of 'any lawful contact'...

I guess my naiveté comes from watched too much of The Beverly Hillbillies. I should have been watching Leave it to Beaver and Ozzie & Harriet...

Uh-huh...Reasonable suspicion.

How does that codify being able to demand someone's ID at will, Jethro?

I guess that sixth grade education didn't include a reading comprehension requirement, did it?

 

[Bfgrn]

Which section of the law says that?...Put up or shut up.

For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.

WOW DUD, how 'Jethro' of me. How could I ever possibly suspect that a beloved and worshiped agent of the government would EVER put 'reasonable suspicion' ahead of 'any lawful contact'...

I guess my naiveté comes from watched too much of The Beverly Hillbillies. I should have been watching Leave it to Beaver and Ozzie & Harriet...

Uh-huh...Reasonable suspicion.

How does that codify being able to demand someone's ID at will, Jethro?

I guess that sixth grade education didn't include a reading comprehension requirement, did it?

I guess living in a bubble sucking the tit of your mommy and daddy would insulate you from the real world.

Have you ever TRIED confronting an agent of the government that wears a badge with a statement of your rights. I'm sure he or she was very receptive, obliging and non confrontational.

You truly are THE Jethro...

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

 

[Oddball]

Translation: All cops are racists.

Thanks for your your bigoted opinion, Jethro.

 

[Bfgrn]

Translation: All cops are racists.

Thanks for your your bigoted opinion, Jethro.

Ah, the polarized mind, how right wing pea brain of you...

The Nazis and commies built walls and fences to keep people IN.

Ain't THAT the truth!

Incarceration Nation The US is the World

Since 1970 our state and federal prison population has grown nearly seven-fold from just under 200,000 to close to 1.4 million people.

In 1998 the US surpassed the former Soviet Union and won the crown as the globe’s foremost jailer with an incarceration rate of approximately 690 prisoners per 100,000 citizens. By comparison, that is almost 6 times Canada’s incarceration rate (115), over 12 times Greece’s rate (55), 19 times Japan’s rate (37) and 29 times India’s rate of 24 prisoners per 100,000 citizens.


Ronald Reagan’s Legacy

Prison growth is fed politically by the growth of the pro-prison lobby, consisting of the newly empowered prison employees unions and the private prison industry. Mandatory sentencing laws adopted by most states as part of Ronald Reagan’s "war on drugs," assured that our spanking new jails would be full for decades to come. This is Reagan’s legacy.

A War on African Americans - "Driving While in Kenmore"

Consider these numbers:
According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, African Americans make up 13% of illicit drug users in the United States.

However, according to the Sentencing Project, a policy research institute funded in part by the Department of Justice, African Americans constitute 35% of all arrests for drug possession, 55% of all drug possession convictions and a whopping 74% of people sentenced to jail for drug possession.

White people, by comparison, make up 74% of illicit drug users but roughly account for only one fifth of those serving jail time for drug possession.

Put simply, this means that if a white man in Amherst and a Black man in Buffalo both personally consume illicit drugs, the Black man is over 20 times more likely to wind up in jail.

Part of the blame for this disparity lands with police agencies that are more prone to stop and search African Americans (for infractions such as "driving while in Kenmore") or carry out the bulk of their drug enforcement operations primarily in African American neighborhoods where their heavy handed tactics meet less political resistance.

Statistics show that both practices are racist, as blacks are not statistically much more likely to abuse drugs. Blacks are, however, statistically more likely to be arrested for abusing drugs, making racial profiling a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The bulk of the blame for this disparity lies with the judiciary. First, judges seldom blink an eye at the fact that black drug users are three times as likely to be arrested than whites, thus raising a plethora of constitutional issues. Second, once arrested, African Americans are over 50% more likely than others to be convicted in the courts. And third, once convicted, blacks are another 40% or so more likely to receive jail time.

Skip College - Go Directly to Jail

The end result in New York State is that 51% of the state prison population and 91% of the New York City prison population is African American.

Take into account the subsequent cuts to education funding which were needed to fund this prison growth and we wind up with the horrific fact that there are more African American men in New York State prisons than there are enrolled as students in the State University of New York system.

Like the Nazis Before Them...

State and local governments nationwide are finding out that even with cuts to other programs, they cannot afford the costly price tags associated with their new jails. To meet these costs, states are turning to prison labor. American prison administrators are now "leasing" prison labor to private corporations in a system reminiscent of their Nazi predecessors, who "leased" concentration camp labor to corporations such as Ford and BASF. The difference is that while the Third Reich prisoners were virtual slaves, the current American prisoners are paid. Their wages, however, are often less than state minimum wages, and the prison systems take about 80% of that wage for "room and board."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey DUD...e, Ronbo Reagan was the pied piper on the road to serfdom, how do you cross the street without getting creamed by a semi?

 

[Oddball]

Yeah...Polarized.

You're the dickweed implying that cops are just going to stop people willy-nilly, with no proof whatsoever other than your blind bigotry.

BTW, did you get the permission of the author of that piece to post it in full?

 

[Bfgrn]

Yeah...Polarized.

You're the dickweed implying that cops are just going to stop people willy-nilly, with no proof whatsoever other than your blind bigotry.

BTW, did you get the permission of the author of that piece to post it in full?

You are as obtuse as a rock. You are NOT and never will be a libertarian, you are a right wing 'statist'

The beloved government...DUD's alter...

Don't worry statist DUD, you can feel all warm and fuzzy inside, the author of the Arizona Immigration Bill had nothing but fair justice and good intent in mind, just your freedom loving kind of guy...

RUSSELL PEARCE is the quintessential Arizona Republican. He wears stars-and-stripes shirts and has clips of John Wayne and Ronald Reagan on his website. He loves guns, his family, his Mormon faith, his country and the law, which he enforced for many years as deputy sheriff of Maricopa County. He jokes that being Republican, and thus not having a heart, saved his life when he got shot in the chest once. But his main passion is illegal immigrants, whom he calls “invaders”. He loathed them even before his son Sean, also a sheriff’s deputy, got shot by one. But now it is personal.

Mr Pearce, a state senator, has sponsored an Arizona law that, if enacted, would be the toughest in the country. It is so brazen it has caused outrage. This week it passed the last hurdles in the state legislature. As The Economist went to press, it was awaiting the signature of Arizona’s Republican governor, Jan Brewer.

Illegal immigration is a federal crime. Mr Pearce’s law, however, would also make it a state crime and would require the police, as opposed to federal agents, to make arrests and check the immigration status of individuals who look suspicious to them. Citizens who think their cops are not vigilant enough would be encouraged to sue their cities or counties, and no city or county may remain a “sanctuary” where this law is not enforced.

In Mr Pearce’s opinion his law merely “removes the handcuffs” from the police and sheriffs’ deputies so they can do their work. To a great many other people, however, it screams racial profiling. Arizona is an overwhelmingly white state, and virtually all illegal immigrants—perhaps about half a million in the state—are Hispanic. Whom else would cops suspect and arrest but the brown ones? Even American Latinos who happen to be out without their driving licence might be at risk.

Arizona's immigration law: Hysterical nativism | The Economist

 

[Barb]

I'm surprised you couldn't just take an honest, open question at face value.

I was paraphrasing what I believed to be your position so that I could understand it completely, and asking you whether my summary was correct. You appear to have chosen to read some potential hidden agenda that wasn't there.

I guess that answers your question. I hope you'll answer mine.

You'll have to be more clear about what you think my position is, and that was the nature of my reply. Do you think 1), that I am wrong in believing the law will be abused or carries the probability of abuse, or 2) do you think that the accused should have to prove bias in order to challenge the application of the new law?

I think (1).

I don't think that people should have to prove their innocence, but by the same token I don't think that the police should have to prove that they are not racists.

If we say that a law cannot be put in place because we do not trust law officers to apply it legally (i.e. without prejudice), then why are we suddenly giving illegals the benefit of "innocent until guilty" and effectively denying it to police officers?

Laws should not be written without clear protections against abuse, Bob, that is the point. This one will be challenged on those grounds, and those challenges will be found valid. Our entire system of justice hinges on the burden of proof being on those who accuse, and this law turns that around. Anyone can be stopped and proof of citizenship demanded from them. On what grounds? Any and none. Where are the rules for probable cause or reasonable suspicion? Out the window, they don't exist under this law. Where is the protection of privacy in that respect? There is none. Where is the protection against unreasonable search? Not there! And not only for "illegals" Bob, but for anyone the police want to go on a fishing expedition against.

 

[Barb]

No that would be the basis on Napoleonic Law, which is the basis of Mexican Law.

So...are you saying that we should be more like Mexico, or that the law as written copied them?

I'm sayin' that the US Constitution prevents Napoleonic Code from being US Law, and that its more than a little ridiculous to believe otherwise.

Then you agree that the AZ law is unconstitutional.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Translation: All cops are racists.

Thanks for your your bigoted opinion, Jethro.

Ah, the polarized mind, how right wing pea brain of you...

The Nazis and commies built walls and fences to keep people IN.

Ain't THAT the truth!

Incarceration Nation The US is the World

Since 1970 our state and federal prison population has grown nearly seven-fold from just under 200,000 to close to 1.4 million people.

In 1998 the US surpassed the former Soviet Union and won the crown as the globe’s foremost jailer with an incarceration rate of approximately 690 prisoners per 100,000 citizens. By comparison, that is almost 6 times Canada’s incarceration rate (115), over 12 times Greece’s rate (55), 19 times Japan’s rate (37) and 29 times India’s rate of 24 prisoners per 100,000 citizens.


Ronald Reagan’s Legacy

Prison growth is fed politically by the growth of the pro-prison lobby, consisting of the newly empowered prison employees unions and the private prison industry. Mandatory sentencing laws adopted by most states as part of Ronald Reagan’s "war on drugs," assured that our spanking new jails would be full for decades to come. This is Reagan’s legacy.

A War on African Americans - "Driving While in Kenmore"

Consider these numbers:
According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, African Americans make up 13% of illicit drug users in the United States.

However, according to the Sentencing Project, a policy research institute funded in part by the Department of Justice, African Americans constitute 35% of all arrests for drug possession, 55% of all drug possession convictions and a whopping 74% of people sentenced to jail for drug possession.

White people, by comparison, make up 74% of illicit drug users but roughly account for only one fifth of those serving jail time for drug possession.

Put simply, this means that if a white man in Amherst and a Black man in Buffalo both personally consume illicit drugs, the Black man is over 20 times more likely to wind up in jail.

Part of the blame for this disparity lands with police agencies that are more prone to stop and search African Americans (for infractions such as "driving while in Kenmore") or carry out the bulk of their drug enforcement operations primarily in African American neighborhoods where their heavy handed tactics meet less political resistance.

Statistics show that both practices are racist, as blacks are not statistically much more likely to abuse drugs. Blacks are, however, statistically more likely to be arrested for abusing drugs, making racial profiling a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The bulk of the blame for this disparity lies with the judiciary. First, judges seldom blink an eye at the fact that black drug users are three times as likely to be arrested than whites, thus raising a plethora of constitutional issues. Second, once arrested, African Americans are over 50% more likely than others to be convicted in the courts. And third, once convicted, blacks are another 40% or so more likely to receive jail time.

Skip College - Go Directly to Jail

The end result in New York State is that 51% of the state prison population and 91% of the New York City prison population is African American.

Take into account the subsequent cuts to education funding which were needed to fund this prison growth and we wind up with the horrific fact that there are more African American men in New York State prisons than there are enrolled as students in the State University of New York system.

Like the Nazis Before Them...

State and local governments nationwide are finding out that even with cuts to other programs, they cannot afford the costly price tags associated with their new jails. To meet these costs, states are turning to prison labor. American prison administrators are now "leasing" prison labor to private corporations in a system reminiscent of their Nazi predecessors, who "leased" concentration camp labor to corporations such as Ford and BASF. The difference is that while the Third Reich prisoners were virtual slaves, the current American prisoners are paid. Their wages, however, are often less than state minimum wages, and the prison systems take about 80% of that wage for "room and board."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey DUD...e, Ronbo Reagan was the pied piper on the road to serfdom, how do you cross the street without getting creamed by a semi?

These stats aren't a fair comparison when you factor in the populations of each Country.

US - 300+ million

Japan - 127+ million

Canada - 34+ million

Greece - 11+ million

The only exception would be India although a study suggest that India could be under-reporting crimes.

A case study on crime

 

[Bfgrn]

Translation: All cops are racists.

Thanks for your your bigoted opinion, Jethro.

Ah, the polarized mind, how right wing pea brain of you...

The Nazis and commies built walls and fences to keep people IN.

Ain't THAT the truth!

Incarceration Nation The US is the World

Since 1970 our state and federal prison population has grown nearly seven-fold from just under 200,000 to close to 1.4 million people.

In 1998 the US surpassed the former Soviet Union and won the crown as the globe’s foremost jailer with an incarceration rate of approximately 690 prisoners per 100,000 citizens. By comparison, that is almost 6 times Canada’s incarceration rate (115), over 12 times Greece’s rate (55), 19 times Japan’s rate (37) and 29 times India’s rate of 24 prisoners per 100,000 citizens.


Ronald Reagan’s Legacy

Prison growth is fed politically by the growth of the pro-prison lobby, consisting of the newly empowered prison employees unions and the private prison industry. Mandatory sentencing laws adopted by most states as part of Ronald Reagan’s "war on drugs," assured that our spanking new jails would be full for decades to come. This is Reagan’s legacy.

A War on African Americans - "Driving While in Kenmore"

Consider these numbers:
According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, African Americans make up 13% of illicit drug users in the United States.

However, according to the Sentencing Project, a policy research institute funded in part by the Department of Justice, African Americans constitute 35% of all arrests for drug possession, 55% of all drug possession convictions and a whopping 74% of people sentenced to jail for drug possession.

White people, by comparison, make up 74% of illicit drug users but roughly account for only one fifth of those serving jail time for drug possession.

Put simply, this means that if a white man in Amherst and a Black man in Buffalo both personally consume illicit drugs, the Black man is over 20 times more likely to wind up in jail.

Part of the blame for this disparity lands with police agencies that are more prone to stop and search African Americans (for infractions such as "driving while in Kenmore") or carry out the bulk of their drug enforcement operations primarily in African American neighborhoods where their heavy handed tactics meet less political resistance.

Statistics show that both practices are racist, as blacks are not statistically much more likely to abuse drugs. Blacks are, however, statistically more likely to be arrested for abusing drugs, making racial profiling a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The bulk of the blame for this disparity lies with the judiciary. First, judges seldom blink an eye at the fact that black drug users are three times as likely to be arrested than whites, thus raising a plethora of constitutional issues. Second, once arrested, African Americans are over 50% more likely than others to be convicted in the courts. And third, once convicted, blacks are another 40% or so more likely to receive jail time.

Skip College - Go Directly to Jail

The end result in New York State is that 51% of the state prison population and 91% of the New York City prison population is African American.

Take into account the subsequent cuts to education funding which were needed to fund this prison growth and we wind up with the horrific fact that there are more African American men in New York State prisons than there are enrolled as students in the State University of New York system.

Like the Nazis Before Them...

State and local governments nationwide are finding out that even with cuts to other programs, they cannot afford the costly price tags associated with their new jails. To meet these costs, states are turning to prison labor. American prison administrators are now "leasing" prison labor to private corporations in a system reminiscent of their Nazi predecessors, who "leased" concentration camp labor to corporations such as Ford and BASF. The difference is that while the Third Reich prisoners were virtual slaves, the current American prisoners are paid. Their wages, however, are often less than state minimum wages, and the prison systems take about 80% of that wage for "room and board."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey DUD...e, Ronbo Reagan was the pied piper on the road to serfdom, how do you cross the street without getting creamed by a semi?

These stats aren't a fair comparison when you factor in the populations of each Country.

US - 300+ million

Japan - 127+ million

Canada - 34+ million

Greece - 11+ million

The only exception would be India although a study suggest that India could be under-reporting crimes.

A case study on crime

Your case study is on CRIME, not incarceration. Incarceration rate is measured per 100,000 citizens, so population growth IS factored in.


Incarcerated America
April 2003

Download as 192K PDF

According to the latest statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, more than two million men and women are now behind bars in the United States. The country that holds itself out as the "land of freedom" incarcerates a higher percentage of its people than any other country. The human costs — wasted lives, wrecked families, troubled children — are incalculable, as are the adverse social, economic and political consequences of weakened communities, diminished opportunities for economic mobility, and extensive disenfranchisement.

Contrary to popular perception, violent crime is not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States since 1980. In fact, violent crime rates have been relatively constant or declining over the past two decades. The exploding prison population has been propelled by public policy changes that have increased the use of prison sentences as well as the length of time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release.

Although these policies were championed as protecting the public from serious and violent offenders, they have instead yielded high rates of confinement of nonviolent offenders. Nearly three quarters of new admissions to state prison were convicted of nonviolent crimes. Only 49 percent of sentenced state inmates are held for violent offenses.

Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges.

Even more troubling than the absolute number of persons in jail or prison is the extent to which those men and women are African-American. Although blacks account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black (Figure 1).

U.S. Population by Race

Census data for 2000,which included a count of the number and race of all individuals incarcerated in the United States, reveals the dramatic racial disproportion of the incarcerated population in each state: the proportion of blacks in prison populations exceeds the proportion among state residents in every single state. In twenty states, the percent of blacks incarcerated is at least five times greater than their share of resident population (Figure 2).

State and Federal Inmates by Race

 

[Intense]

For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.

WOW DUD, how 'Jethro' of me. How could I ever possibly suspect that a beloved and worshiped agent of the government would EVER put 'reasonable suspicion' ahead of 'any lawful contact'...

I guess my naiveté comes from watched too much of The Beverly Hillbillies. I should have been watching Leave it to Beaver and Ozzie & Harriet...

Uh-huh...Reasonable suspicion.

How does that codify being able to demand someone's ID at will, Jethro?

I guess that sixth grade education didn't include a reading comprehension requirement, did it?

I guess living in a bubble sucking the tit of your mommy and daddy would insulate you from the real world.

Have you ever TRIED confronting an agent of the government that wears a badge with a statement of your rights. I'm sure he or she was very receptive, obliging and non confrontational.

You truly are THE Jethro...

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

No profiling or Stereotyping here.

We are all human beings first, even cop's. You might want to check your tone and attitude if you are hitting a stone wall there Sugar.

 

[Intense]

Ah, the polarized mind, how right wing pea brain of you...




Ain't THAT the truth!

Incarceration Nation The US is the World

Since 1970 our state and federal prison population has grown nearly seven-fold from just under 200,000 to close to 1.4 million people.

In 1998 the US surpassed the former Soviet Union and won the crown as the globe’s foremost jailer with an incarceration rate of approximately 690 prisoners per 100,000 citizens. By comparison, that is almost 6 times Canada’s incarceration rate (115), over 12 times Greece’s rate (55), 19 times Japan’s rate (37) and 29 times India’s rate of 24 prisoners per 100,000 citizens.


Ronald Reagan’s Legacy

Prison growth is fed politically by the growth of the pro-prison lobby, consisting of the newly empowered prison employees unions and the private prison industry. Mandatory sentencing laws adopted by most states as part of Ronald Reagan’s "war on drugs," assured that our spanking new jails would be full for decades to come. This is Reagan’s legacy.

A War on African Americans - "Driving While in Kenmore"

Consider these numbers:
According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, African Americans make up 13% of illicit drug users in the United States.

However, according to the Sentencing Project, a policy research institute funded in part by the Department of Justice, African Americans constitute 35% of all arrests for drug possession, 55% of all drug possession convictions and a whopping 74% of people sentenced to jail for drug possession.

White people, by comparison, make up 74% of illicit drug users but roughly account for only one fifth of those serving jail time for drug possession.

Put simply, this means that if a white man in Amherst and a Black man in Buffalo both personally consume illicit drugs, the Black man is over 20 times more likely to wind up in jail.

Part of the blame for this disparity lands with police agencies that are more prone to stop and search African Americans (for infractions such as "driving while in Kenmore") or carry out the bulk of their drug enforcement operations primarily in African American neighborhoods where their heavy handed tactics meet less political resistance.

Statistics show that both practices are racist, as blacks are not statistically much more likely to abuse drugs. Blacks are, however, statistically more likely to be arrested for abusing drugs, making racial profiling a self-fulfilling prophesy.

The bulk of the blame for this disparity lies with the judiciary. First, judges seldom blink an eye at the fact that black drug users are three times as likely to be arrested than whites, thus raising a plethora of constitutional issues. Second, once arrested, African Americans are over 50% more likely than others to be convicted in the courts. And third, once convicted, blacks are another 40% or so more likely to receive jail time.

Skip College - Go Directly to Jail

The end result in New York State is that 51% of the state prison population and 91% of the New York City prison population is African American.

Take into account the subsequent cuts to education funding which were needed to fund this prison growth and we wind up with the horrific fact that there are more African American men in New York State prisons than there are enrolled as students in the State University of New York system.

Like the Nazis Before Them...

State and local governments nationwide are finding out that even with cuts to other programs, they cannot afford the costly price tags associated with their new jails. To meet these costs, states are turning to prison labor. American prison administrators are now "leasing" prison labor to private corporations in a system reminiscent of their Nazi predecessors, who "leased" concentration camp labor to corporations such as Ford and BASF. The difference is that while the Third Reich prisoners were virtual slaves, the current American prisoners are paid. Their wages, however, are often less than state minimum wages, and the prison systems take about 80% of that wage for "room and board."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey DUD...e, Ronbo Reagan was the pied piper on the road to serfdom, how do you cross the street without getting creamed by a semi?

These stats aren't a fair comparison when you factor in the populations of each Country.

US - 300+ million

Japan - 127+ million

Canada - 34+ million

Greece - 11+ million

The only exception would be India although a study suggest that India could be under-reporting crimes.

A case study on crime

Your case study is on CRIME, not incarceration. Incarceration rate is measured per 100,000 citizens, so population growth IS factored in.


Incarcerated America
April 2003

Download as 192K PDF

According to the latest statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, more than two million men and women are now behind bars in the United States. The country that holds itself out as the "land of freedom" incarcerates a higher percentage of its people than any other country. The human costs — wasted lives, wrecked families, troubled children — are incalculable, as are the adverse social, economic and political consequences of weakened communities, diminished opportunities for economic mobility, and extensive disenfranchisement.

Contrary to popular perception, violent crime is not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States since 1980. In fact, violent crime rates have been relatively constant or declining over the past two decades. The exploding prison population has been propelled by public policy changes that have increased the use of prison sentences as well as the length of time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release.

Although these policies were championed as protecting the public from serious and violent offenders, they have instead yielded high rates of confinement of nonviolent offenders. Nearly three quarters of new admissions to state prison were convicted of nonviolent crimes. Only 49 percent of sentenced state inmates are held for violent offenses.

Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges.

Even more troubling than the absolute number of persons in jail or prison is the extent to which those men and women are African-American. Although blacks account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black (Figure 1).

U.S. Population by Race

Census data for 2000,which included a count of the number and race of all individuals incarcerated in the United States, reveals the dramatic racial disproportion of the incarcerated population in each state: the proportion of blacks in prison populations exceeds the proportion among state residents in every single state. In twenty states, the percent of blacks incarcerated is at least five times greater than their share of resident population (Figure 2).

State and Federal Inmates by Race

Maybe we should just decriminalize Murder, Rape, Assault, Armed Robbery, All Drug Dealing, does that work for you Sugar????

 

[tigerbob]

You'll have to be more clear about what you think my position is, and that was the nature of my reply. Do you think 1), that I am wrong in believing the law will be abused or carries the probability of abuse, or 2) do you think that the accused should have to prove bias in order to challenge the application of the new law?

I think (1).

I don't think that people should have to prove their innocence, but by the same token I don't think that the police should have to prove that they are not racists.

If we say that a law cannot be put in place because we do not trust law officers to apply it legally (i.e. without prejudice), then why are we suddenly giving illegals the benefit of "innocent until guilty" and effectively denying it to police officers?

Laws should not be written without clear protections against abuse, Bob, that is the point. This one will be challenged on those grounds, and those challenges will be found valid. Our entire system of justice hinges on the burden of proof being on those who accuse, and this law turns that around. Anyone can be stopped and proof of citizenship demanded from them. On what grounds? Any and none. Where are the rules for probable cause or reasonable suspicion? Out the window, they don't exist under this law. Where is the protection of privacy in that respect? There is none. Where is the protection against unreasonable search? Not there! And not only for "illegals" Bob, but for anyone the police want to go on a fishing expedition against.

I understand the point, but have a different view on the extent to which this is a new law as opposed to an extension of existing federal law. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the grounds for probable cause will be what they have always been. As such, the only difference between then and now is that police officers are required to ascertain legal presence and required to arrest if proof is not forthcoming.

I'm sure that you, like many, feel that this law encourages police to overstep the existing authority they have to conduct searches / demand ID, and to do so based solely on racial profile. I understand that position but do not feel that those concerns are significant enough to warrant this law being struck off the books.

I probably have a slightly different view of this to a US Citizen because, as a permanent resident I am required to carry proof of legal presence at all times and have never found it to be inconvenient. In my 2 years back in this country, I have only been asked for it once other than at an airport.

If illegals are flooding into the country (and they are) and all ways to control that influx so far have more or less failed, I agree with the State of Arizona that the time has come to find a better way to determine who the illegals are that are already here and have them removed. I hope that this new law generates some success in that objective.

 

[Bfgrn]

These stats aren't a fair comparison when you factor in the populations of each Country.

US - 300+ million

Japan - 127+ million

Canada - 34+ million

Greece - 11+ million

The only exception would be India although a study suggest that India could be under-reporting crimes.

A case study on crime

Your case study is on CRIME, not incarceration. Incarceration rate is measured per 100,000 citizens, so population growth IS factored in.


Incarcerated America
April 2003

Download as 192K PDF

According to the latest statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, more than two million men and women are now behind bars in the United States. The country that holds itself out as the "land of freedom" incarcerates a higher percentage of its people than any other country. The human costs — wasted lives, wrecked families, troubled children — are incalculable, as are the adverse social, economic and political consequences of weakened communities, diminished opportunities for economic mobility, and extensive disenfranchisement.

Contrary to popular perception, violent crime is not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States since 1980. In fact, violent crime rates have been relatively constant or declining over the past two decades. The exploding prison population has been propelled by public policy changes that have increased the use of prison sentences as well as the length of time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release.

Although these policies were championed as protecting the public from serious and violent offenders, they have instead yielded high rates of confinement of nonviolent offenders. Nearly three quarters of new admissions to state prison were convicted of nonviolent crimes. Only 49 percent of sentenced state inmates are held for violent offenses.

Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges.

Even more troubling than the absolute number of persons in jail or prison is the extent to which those men and women are African-American. Although blacks account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black (Figure 1).

U.S. Population by Race

Census data for 2000,which included a count of the number and race of all individuals incarcerated in the United States, reveals the dramatic racial disproportion of the incarcerated population in each state: the proportion of blacks in prison populations exceeds the proportion among state residents in every single state. In twenty states, the percent of blacks incarcerated is at least five times greater than their share of resident population (Figure 2).

State and Federal Inmates by Race

Maybe we should just decriminalize Murder, Rape, Assault, Armed Robbery, All Drug Dealing, does that work for you Sugar????

Another polarized mind. Black or white, devoid of gray and devoid of gray matter. Why don't you take this up with DUD, you can have a Jethro convention, how does that sound sugar?

 

[Intense]

Your case study is on CRIME, not incarceration. Incarceration rate is measured per 100,000 citizens, so population growth IS factored in.


Incarcerated America
April 2003

Download as 192K PDF

According to the latest statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, more than two million men and women are now behind bars in the United States. The country that holds itself out as the "land of freedom" incarcerates a higher percentage of its people than any other country. The human costs — wasted lives, wrecked families, troubled children — are incalculable, as are the adverse social, economic and political consequences of weakened communities, diminished opportunities for economic mobility, and extensive disenfranchisement.

Contrary to popular perception, violent crime is not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States since 1980. In fact, violent crime rates have been relatively constant or declining over the past two decades. The exploding prison population has been propelled by public policy changes that have increased the use of prison sentences as well as the length of time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release.

Although these policies were championed as protecting the public from serious and violent offenders, they have instead yielded high rates of confinement of nonviolent offenders. Nearly three quarters of new admissions to state prison were convicted of nonviolent crimes. Only 49 percent of sentenced state inmates are held for violent offenses.

Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges.

Even more troubling than the absolute number of persons in jail or prison is the extent to which those men and women are African-American. Although blacks account for only 12 percent of the U.S. population, 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black (Figure 1).

U.S. Population by Race

Census data for 2000,which included a count of the number and race of all individuals incarcerated in the United States, reveals the dramatic racial disproportion of the incarcerated population in each state: the proportion of blacks in prison populations exceeds the proportion among state residents in every single state. In twenty states, the percent of blacks incarcerated is at least five times greater than their share of resident population (Figure 2).

State and Federal Inmates by Race

Maybe we should just decriminalize Murder, Rape, Assault, Armed Robbery, All Drug Dealing, does that work for you Sugar????

Another polarized mind. Black or white, devoid of gray and devoid of gray matter. Why don't you take this up with DUD, you can have a Jethro convention, how does that sound sugar?

Polarized??? Rule of Law. Innocent or Guilty? What percentage of those incarcerated are guilty of the crime??? Not that that should matter to you. Logic has no place in a debate with you, nor should it, huh. It's all about feelings, right Sugar? Not just anybody's feelings, but your feelings, is that it? What is Gray to you, supposition or circumstance?

 

[Oddball]

It's called "projection", Innie.

 

[Barb]

I think (1).

I don't think that people should have to prove their innocence, but by the same token I don't think that the police should have to prove that they are not racists.

If we say that a law cannot be put in place because we do not trust law officers to apply it legally (i.e. without prejudice), then why are we suddenly giving illegals the benefit of "innocent until guilty" and effectively denying it to police officers?

Laws should not be written without clear protections against abuse, Bob, that is the point. This one will be challenged on those grounds, and those challenges will be found valid. Our entire system of justice hinges on the burden of proof being on those who accuse, and this law turns that around. Anyone can be stopped and proof of citizenship demanded from them. On what grounds? Any and none. Where are the rules for probable cause or reasonable suspicion? Out the window, they don't exist under this law. Where is the protection of privacy in that respect? There is none. Where is the protection against unreasonable search? Not there! And not only for "illegals" Bob, but for anyone the police want to go on a fishing expedition against.

I understand the point, but have a different view on the extent to which this is a new law as opposed to an extension of existing federal law. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the grounds for probable cause will be what they have always been. As such, the only difference between then and now is that police officers are required to ascertain legal presence and required to arrest if proof is not forthcoming.

I'm sure that you, like many, feel that this law encourages police to overstep the existing authority they have to conduct searches / demand ID, and to do so based solely on racial profile. I understand that position but do not feel that those concerns are significant enough to warrant this law being struck off the books.

I probably have a slightly different view of this to a US Citizen because, as a permanent resident I am required to carry proof of legal presence at all times and have never found it to be inconvenient. In my 2 years back in this country, I have only been asked for it once other than at an airport.

If illegals are flooding into the country (and they are) and all ways to control that influx so far have more or less failed, I agree with the State of Arizona that the time has come to find a better way to determine who the illegals are that are already here and have them removed. I hope that this new law generates some success in that objective.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I do believe that a much more cost effective way to limit supply of undocumented immigrants is to lend more muscle to enforcement of the laws (also already on the books) that limit demand.

 

[Bfgrn]

Maybe we should just decriminalize Murder, Rape, Assault, Armed Robbery, All Drug Dealing, does that work for you Sugar????

Another polarized mind. Black or white, devoid of gray and devoid of gray matter. Why don't you take this up with DUD, you can have a Jethro convention, how does that sound sugar?

Polarized??? Rule of Law. Innocent or Guilty? What percentage of those incarcerated are guilty of the crime??? Not that that should matter to you. Logic has no place in a debate with you, nor should it, huh. It's all about feelings, right Sugar? Not just anybody's feelings, but your feelings, is that it? What is Gray to you, supposition or circumstance?

YES, polarized, pea brain...YOU...

There is basically one constant throughout history; human nature and human foible. When violent crime rates stay the same, or decrease, yet incarceration rates quadruple, we can deduce that human nature and human foible is not the cause. Then, intelligent and capable adults need to examine other factors.

Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
Edmund Burke

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

It is more dangerous that even a guilty person should be punished without the forms of law than that he should escape.
Thomas Jefferson

 

[Gunny]

Arizona's draconian new immigration law is an abomination -- racist, arbitrary, oppressive, mean-spirited, unjust. About the only hopeful thing that can be said is that the legislation, which Republican Gov. Jan Brewer signed Friday, goes so outrageously far that it may well be unconstitutional.

Brewer, who caved to xenophobic pressures that previous governors had the backbone to resist, should be ashamed of herself. The law requires police to question anyone they "reasonably suspect" of being an undocumented immigrant -- a mandate for racial profiling on a massive scale. Legal immigrants will be required to carry papers proving that they have a right to be in the United States. Those without documentation can be charged with the crime of trespassing and jailed for up to six months.

Activists for Latino and immigrant rights -- and supporters of sane governance -- held weekend rallies denouncing the new law and vowing to do everything they can to overturn it.

But where was the Tea Party crowd?
Isn't the whole premise of the Tea Party movement that overreaching government poses a grave threat to individual freedom? It seems to me that a law allowing individuals to be detained and interrogated on a whim -- and requiring legal residents to carry identification documents, as in a police state -- would send the Tea Partyers into apoplexy. Or is there some kind of exception if the people whose freedoms are being taken away happen to have brown skin and might speak Spanish?
washingtonpost.com

The only teabaggers are fags who are so insecure and scared they have to call the Tea Party "teabaggers", spend countless hours and post countless threads full of nothing but political hate and rhetoric.

Some of you sheep need to learn to think on your own.

 

[Samson]

Arizona's draconian new immigration law is an abomination -- racist, arbitrary, oppressive, mean-spirited, unjust. About the only hopeful thing that can be said is that the legislation, which Republican Gov. Jan Brewer signed Friday, goes so outrageously far that it may well be unconstitutional.

Brewer, who caved to xenophobic pressures that previous governors had the backbone to resist, should be ashamed of herself. The law requires police to question anyone they "reasonably suspect" of being an undocumented immigrant -- a mandate for racial profiling on a massive scale. Legal immigrants will be required to carry papers proving that they have a right to be in the United States. Those without documentation can be charged with the crime of trespassing and jailed for up to six months.

Activists for Latino and immigrant rights -- and supporters of sane governance -- held weekend rallies denouncing the new law and vowing to do everything they can to overturn it.

But where was the Tea Party crowd?
Isn't the whole premise of the Tea Party movement that overreaching government poses a grave threat to individual freedom? It seems to me that a law allowing individuals to be detained and interrogated on a whim -- and requiring legal residents to carry identification documents, as in a police state -- would send the Tea Partyers into apoplexy. Or is there some kind of exception if the people whose freedoms are being taken away happen to have brown skin and might speak Spanish?
washingtonpost.com

The only teabaggers are fags who are so insecure and scared they have to call the Tea Party "teabaggers", spend countless hours and post countless threads full of nothing but political hate and rhetoric.

Some of you sheep need to learn to think on your own.