Tax the Rich? Tax the Millionaires!

Actually, as Iowahawk has demonstrated, taking away all of the income of those making over $250K would result in $1.4T, so let's just seize everything over $200K and close the deficit!
Or we could tax all corporations at the same rate as Warren Buffett(17.7%)

"US corporations, who are (according to to the Supreme Court) also citizens of this country, paid just $300Bn in taxes last year on $6 TRILLION in income (5%).

"That’s right, if US corporations simply paid the same amount of tax as Mr. Buffett – that would, by itself, be enough to wipe out our deficit."



Great. Let's see how many more jobs can be destroyed.

And, it would behoove you to learn the difference between Revenue and Net Income.
Destroy more jobs? Just ask Jeff!

"Let’s look at GE’s jobs record.

"You would have difficulty finding a company that has outsourced more jobs and closed more American factories than GE. While they have slashed their American workforce to fewer than 150,000, GE has dramatically expanded its global presence, now employing over 300,000 workers worldwide...

"The result of policies (former GE CEO Jeffrey) Immelt has supported: one-third of our manufacturing workforce gone in a decade. 50,000 shuttered factories. At least $245 billion in real wage and salary losses for manufacturing workers. Record trade deficits with China.

"In short, our worst decade in manufacturing history—by most measures even worse than the Great Depression."

During the worst decade in manufacturing history GE did its share by outsourcing thousands of jobs AND paying little if any federal income taxes.

btw, you've probably forgotten more than I currently know about Finance; however, that doesn't mean you don't need to begin thinking outside the box your education has constructed.

Any society with $14 trillion in Gross National Income should be able to construct a tax code that precludes a $1.3 trillion deficit.
 
Actually, as Iowahawk has demonstrated, taking away all of the income of those making over $250K would result in $1.4T, so let's just seize everything over $200K and close the deficit!
Or we could tax all corporations at the same rate as Warren Buffett(17.7%)

"US corporations, who are (according to to the Supreme Court) also citizens of this country, paid just $300Bn in taxes last year on $6 TRILLION in income (5%).

"That’s right, if US corporations simply paid the same amount of tax as Mr. Buffett – that would, by itself, be enough to wipe out our deficit."

So when you go to bankruptcy court, I'm sure the judge will be glad to hear your excuse that if your employer just paid you 17.7% more then you could spend what you do and be just fine, so it's really your employer's fault. I'd go with that, if I were you.
If I were you, I'd go back to school.

Maybe you would discover why corporations should pay a tax rate of 5% compared to the 35% rate paid by mortal citizens?

Or why a nation that earns $14 trillion in Revenue every year can't cover a $1.3 trillion annual deficit?

Maybe it's the schoolteachers?

Or the billionaires??
 
M14, you are way, way off. Do you know how to read numeric data?

The real and substantive equitable way to cure the problem is to change the economic system away from its current massive inequitable bias that leads to massive disproportionate overcompensation of top income persons and the related accumulation of the disparate inequitable concentration of wealth at the top.

This excess wealth was siphoned away legally from the working class by way of the biased economic system that we have. The wealth was created by the hands and minds of the working class yet allowed to be steered to, acquired and accumulated by the top, mostly by high prices, successful measures/pressures to suppress compensation of the working class, and by non-productive financial maneuvering.

Having said that, right now the only tool to compensate for the inequitable concentration of wealth and income at the top is by way of the progressive income tax rates and the estate tax. Obviously, since the USA is the second worst offender in the world in such disparate concentration of wealth at the top, the progressive income tax rates are not nearly as progressive as they need to be and the estate tax is too lenient.

An analysis of the aforementioned tax info shows that the average top 1% taxpayer has over $923,000 left over after paying their fed inc tax, the average top 10% taxpayer has $224,000 left over after paying their fed tax, the average amount of income left over after the bottom 50% pay their inc tax is just under $15,000. Can you see the difference? Try to live on $15,000 after tax income. Not enough to even be at subsistence, but if you are in the top 10%, you have an average of $224,000. Now, you can live very, very fat on that! See the difference?

Anybody see a lopsided disparity? I do. The right wing ignores the fact that the wealthy have so much money left over after they pay their taxes. That is how they accumulated so much of the nation’s wealth. However, the right wing wants you to think that the top 2% pay such an inordinate share of income taxes, that they are hurting, even more ludicrously, they want you to believe that it is bad for the economy! $923,000 versus $15,000! What shamelessl people the right wing are.

Now, if we need more tax revenue, don’t look to the bottom 50% (there are many republicans in that bottom 50%) to get it, they can’t really live on their remaining $15,000 after taxes.
MitchMan:

When you say "...the average top 1% taxpayer has over $923,000 left over after paying their fed inc tax..." could you provide a few more details for those of us functioning below a business finance 101 level?

It's my understanding the richest 1% of American earners begins around the $340,000 per year level while the richest 10,000 Americans earn an average of $50,000,000 per year.

Do you have any links on how that $923,000 figure is calculated?

Also, boedicca raised the issue of Revenue v. Profit.

Do you find it credible to say that a nation that generates $14 trillion in annual income should be able to structure a tax code that precludes a $1.3 trillion budget deficit from occurring in the same year?

Are you personally in favor of taxing consumption instead of income?
 
Go to the following URL to get these stats directly from the IRS stats:

SOI Tax Stats - Individual Statistical Tables by Tax Rate and Income Percentile

Then go to just below the middle of the page and you will find an Excel chart entitled: Number of Returns, Shares of AGI and Total Income Tax, AGI Floor on Percentiles in Current and Constant Dollars, and Average Tax Rates. This spreadsheet has the precise stats I used regarding your inquiry.

For example and directly from this table : The total number of top 1% taxpayers in 2008 = 1,399,606 taxpayers, Total Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) for the top 1% = $1,685,472,000,000, and the total income tax liability after deducting their tax credits = $392,149,000,000. Simply divide the total AGI and the total Tax Liability after tax credit by the number of tax returns and you get the following average per tax return (i.e., per capita top 1% taxpayer): per capita - AGI = $1,204,247, Tax Liability = $280,185. Then subtract the Tax Liability from the AGI and you get $924,062 AGI left over after the average top 1% taxpayer pays his Federal Income Tax: $924,602 = $1,204,247 - $280,185. The number I used was $923,000 as I rounded down more in my initial post and I do that so that my representations are always a tad lower so that the right wing cannot ever use their dishonest commonly used ruse that I overstate things.

Keep in mind that these stats actually probably understate the actual income of the wealthy as both the right and left wing have acknowledged that taxable income for the upper income taxpayers is under reported due to tax evasion and abuse of certain tax avoidances.

With regard to whether or not it is credible to structure the tax code to preclude the $1.3 trillion deficit in the same year, it can be, certainly, and there is enough money to accomplish that. As a practical matter, it would be a bad idea to do it all at once because of the shock to do so, so swiftly. It is much more effective to do things gradually as it gives entities time to restructure and plan accordingly, and gradual application would be better able to preserve productive resources, a shock would be disruptive and actually damaging to resources. Mexico, for example, constantly makes that mistake.

In my view, the real problem is the bias in our economic system that allows the wealthy to take the lion’s share of the nation’s wealth created by the hands and minds of the working class (technically the bottom 96% of the people in the USA, and more severely the bottom 85%! There are a lot of stupid right wingers in that group that have been duped into voting against their own best interest).

I absolutely believe in a market economy, but an economy that is not so biased in favor of the top, which is to say that the majority of Americans are getting screwed big time. With the proper regulation, we could have a great economy that equitably rewards its people while providing all the compensation incentives necessary for a people to invent, to be efficient, to be entrepreneurial, to grow, and to achieve great things. Such an economy would put more money in the hands of the consuming public and demand would always be great. Consumer demand is the economic ingredient that truly drives an economy that thrives, and fixing the current inequitable bias in our economy would result in enabling the working class to rightfully, equitably, logically, and morally keep more of the money and wealth and purchasing power that only the working class creates with their energy and work with their own hands and minds.

With regard to whether I am for taxation on consumption versus on income, that’s an easy one for me to answer. I can beat up Boedicca all day on that one. The straight answer is: tax the income. Always tax the income only tax the income, and tax the wealth only as it may be necessary (as it is now since there is such a gross bias in our economic system that has enable the few to own such a lopsided proportion of wealth). A flat income tax would absolutely be ruinous to our country, taxing only consumption would be even worse. The majority of the right wing working class have been duped into believing and supporting such massively regressive approaches that would bring massive windfalls to the wealthy few and absolutely make the concentration of wealth and income at the top even worse than it is. There is so much proof of this that it isn’t even funny.
 
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Or we could tax all corporations at the same rate as Warren Buffett(17.7%)

"US corporations, who are (according to to the Supreme Court) also citizens of this country, paid just $300Bn in taxes last year on $6 TRILLION in income (5%).

"That’s right, if US corporations simply paid the same amount of tax as Mr. Buffett – that would, by itself, be enough to wipe out our deficit."

So when you go to bankruptcy court, I'm sure the judge will be glad to hear your excuse that if your employer just paid you 17.7% more then you could spend what you do and be just fine, so it's really your employer's fault. I'd go with that, if I were you.
If I were you, I'd go back to school.

Maybe you would discover why corporations should pay a tax rate of 5% compared to the 35% rate paid by mortal citizens?
Maybe you should go back to school and learn arithmetic. In your example, mortal citizens are paying 5 + 35 = 40% rate.

Or why a nation that earns $14 trillion in Revenue every year can't cover a $1.3 trillion annual deficit?
Because as you said, $1.3 is "deficit" when the issue is spending, which is far, far higher

Maybe it's the schoolteachers?
Could be them. Your ignorance is a pretty good testament they're not educating very well

Or the billionaires??
Sure, take their money, lose your job, we'll all be poor but have the same amount. The liberal dream fulfilled
 
kaz, say something substantive, support your contentions, especially the last one:
"Sure, take their money, lose your job, we'll all be poor but have the same amount."
 
If we really want to make the people who are responsible for the crushing debt the country has accumulated then let's confiscate every dime from every politician that has served in any elected state or federal office in the last 3 decades.
 
boeddica, how does taxing more of a corporation's profits kill jobs?

You know that it is a tax on profits, that means that all the operating expenses and all labor already hired and any and all other costs have been all been paid for, even things like depreciation which then allows reserves to be built up from profits to replace assets when fully depreciated. You see, there is no reason to fire anybody, your profits are proof that you have more than enough to pay all your labor.

The only reason to fire anybody in the face of profits is if you are an inefficient company and have too much labor on staff. But, if you are not inefficient and you fire some one even after making a profit, then you will not have enough labor to accomplish all the work necessary to stay efficient - you will be understaffed and then your profits will suffer. Cost accounting, basic economics, and business finance 101.

Now explain to me, to us how taxes on corporate profits destroys jobs(?)

In this you have exposed one of the most effective gimmicks imparted by the corporate propaganda machine to its brainwashed acolytes. Most of them truly believe that excessive accumulated personal assets creates jobs and that the richer the super-rich become the better that will be for everyone.

This myth rivals that of the virgin birth and it is every bit as tenaciously imbedded in the minds of most Republicans. They believe it and nothing short of electro-shock therapy will alter their thinking.
 
boeddica, how does taxing more of a corporation's profits kill jobs?

You know that it is a tax on profits, that means that all the operating expenses and all labor already hired and any and all other costs have been all been paid for, even things like depreciation which then allows reserves to be built up from profits to replace assets when fully depreciated. You see, there is no reason to fire anybody, your profits are proof that you have more than enough to pay all your labor.

The only reason to fire anybody in the face of profits is if you are an inefficient company and have too much labor on staff. But, if you are not inefficient and you fire some one even after making a profit, then you will not have enough labor to accomplish all the work necessary to stay efficient - you will be understaffed and then your profits will suffer. Cost accounting, basic economics, and business finance 101.

Now explain to me, to us how taxes on corporate profits destroys jobs(?)

In this you have exposed one of the most effective gimmicks imparted by the corporate propaganda machine to its brainwashed acolytes. Most of them truly believe that excessive accumulated personal assets creates jobs and that the richer the super-rich become the better that will be for everyone.

This myth rivals that of the virgin birth and it is every bit as tenaciously imbedded in the minds of most Republicans. They believe it and nothing short of electro-shock therapy will alter their thinking.
Speaking of propaganda... why is it that you only post canned talking points?
Why do you not respond when asked to think for yoursef?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/160774-tax-the-rich-tax-the-millionaires-15.html#post3471747
 
kaz, say something substantive, support your contentions, especially the last one:
"Sure, take their money, lose your job, we'll all be poor but have the same amount."
People with money create jobs, not people who don't. I'm not going to prove the field of economics, take a class. If I say something that's opinion I'll be glad to support it.
 
M14, you are way, way off. Do you know how to read numeric data?
With an intro like that, I fully expected you to w me how I was "way way off"- but, alas, you did not.
Hmm.
You seem to have a pervasive comprehension problem in that you require detailed explanations of things which either are self-explanatory or should already be understood. Could be you are in the wrong classroom.
 
People with money create jobs, not people who don't. I'm not going to prove the field of economics, take a class. If I say something that's opinion I'll be glad to support it.
People with money create jobs. So do people who have no money but who get loans from banks. And the people who take the jobs are the ones whose time and labor creates the money that creates more jobs. So let's not ignore that part of the equation.
 
People with money create jobs, not people who don't. I'm not going to prove the field of economics, take a class. If I say something that's opinion I'll be glad to support it.
People with money create jobs. So do people who have no money but who get loans from banks. And the people who take the jobs are the ones whose time and labor creates the money that creates more jobs. So let's not ignore that part of the equation.

So why do the people who do the work need owners/management exactly?
 
15th post
Or we could tax all corporations at the same rate as Warren Buffett(17.7%)

"US corporations, who are (according to to the Supreme Court) also citizens of this country, paid just $300Bn in taxes last year on $6 TRILLION in income (5%).

"That’s right, if US corporations simply paid the same amount of tax as Mr. Buffett – that would, by itself, be enough to wipe out our deficit."



Great. Let's see how many more jobs can be destroyed.

And, it would behoove you to learn the difference between Revenue and Net Income.
Destroy more jobs? Just ask Jeff!

"Let’s look at GE’s jobs record.

"You would have difficulty finding a company that has outsourced more jobs and closed more American factories than GE. While they have slashed their American workforce to fewer than 150,000, GE has dramatically expanded its global presence, now employing over 300,000 workers worldwide...

"The result of policies (former GE CEO Jeffrey) Immelt has supported: one-third of our manufacturing workforce gone in a decade. 50,000 shuttered factories. At least $245 billion in real wage and salary losses for manufacturing workers. Record trade deficits with China.

"In short, our worst decade in manufacturing history—by most measures even worse than the Great Depression."

During the worst decade in manufacturing history GE did its share by outsourcing thousands of jobs AND paying little if any federal income taxes.

btw, you've probably forgotten more than I currently know about Finance; however, that doesn't mean you don't need to begin thinking outside the box your education has constructed.

Any society with $14 trillion in Gross National Income should be able to construct a tax code that precludes a $1.3 trillion deficit.


Excellent. You found an appalling example of Big Government Cronyism.

I'm perfectly copacetic with the government ending it's bail outs, tax preferences, regulatory support etc. of GE and any other Crony Capitalists.
 
M14, you are way, way off. Do you know how to read numeric data?
With an intro like that, I fully expected you to w me how I was "way way off"- but, alas, you did not.
Hmm.
You seem to have a pervasive comprehension problem in that you require detailed explanations of things which either are self-explanatory or should already be understood.
Translation:
You have no capacity whatsoever to effectively counter what I said.
 
What role did a $13 trillion bailout of Wall Street play in that 25% increase in spending since the Pelosi-Reid era and its dramatic ramp once Obama gained power?

Any thoughts on why the financial speculators who made the Stimulus package necessary are largely getting off scot free or why they are still not paying any tax on the purchase and sale of their "financial products"?

Do you think Goldman Sachs's 2008 effective income tax rate of 1% poses a bigger threat to the US economy than Social Security?

Would you agree?

“It is increasingly becoming clear that the working majority around the world face a common enemy: an unproductive financial oligarchy that, like parasites, sucks the economic blood out of the working people, simply by trading and/or betting on claims of ownership. . . ."

Ellen Brown: Who Will Pay: Wall Street or Main Street?


You never seen me support Big Government Cronyism, bub.
I've also never noticed you criticizing Wall Street or the FIRE sector.



Then you haven't paid attention.
 
boeddica, how does taxing more of a corporation's profits kill jobs?

You know that it is a tax on profits, that means that all the operating expenses and all labor already hired and any and all other costs have been all been paid for, even things like depreciation which then allows reserves to be built up from profits to replace assets when fully depreciated. You see, there is no reason to fire anybody, your profits are proof that you have more than enough to pay all your labor.

The only reason to fire anybody in the face of profits is if you are an inefficient company and have too much labor on staff. But, if you are not inefficient and you fire some one even after making a profit, then you will not have enough labor to accomplish all the work necessary to stay efficient - you will be understaffed and then your profits will suffer. Cost accounting, basic economics, and business finance 101.

Now explain to me, to us how taxes on corporate profits destroys jobs(?)


Here's how, and it's really quite simple:

The LESS CASH companies have on their balance sheets, the less they invest.

The MORE MONEY government spends, the lower the growth of the economy.

The LOWER THE GROWTH OF THE ECONOMY, companies have less reason to invest.

So, high taxes do two bad things (among other bad things): lower GDP growth and lower investment capital necessary for job creation.

The End.
 
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