Syria: Iraq Redux? Guess Again

[TemplarKormac]

In an attempt to amalgamate this issue, I will list off some key similarities and differences between the proposed use of military force against Syria, and President George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq in 2003. Feel free to debate them as you see fit.

First, a timeline leading up to the second invasion of Iraq:

February 28, 1991: A ceasefire between The UN Coalition (including the United States) and Iraq was negotiated, thus ending the first Gulf War.

October 1998: It became clear to the Clinton Administration that Saddam Hussein had to be removed from power. It thus passed the Iraq Liberation Act as a response to the expulsion of UN Weapons Inspectors in August of the preceding year.

December 16, 1998: The United States and Great Britain launch a joint bombardment campaign against Iraq, known as Operation Desert Fox; in hopes of weakening Saddam Hussein's grip on power or removing him altogether.

November 7, 2000: President George W. Bush was elected as the 43rd President of The United States. During the campaign, Republicans pushed for a more aggressive stance on Iraq, citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 as a starting point to removing Hussein completely from power.

September 11, 2001: Terrorists hijack four airliners, flying two of them into the two World Trade Center Towers causing them to collapse, resulting in the deaths of over 3,000 people. Another was flown into the Pentagon, and another intended for the White House was brought down in Shanksville, Pennsylvania by a brave contingent of passengers.

September 20, 2001: After months of inaction regarding Saddam Hussein and Iraq, President Bush addresses a joint session of Congress in a world simulcast, unveiling a new strategy to combat terrorism, known as the "War on Terror." Accompanying it, was a military action of pre-emptive doctrine known as the "Bush Doctrine."

September 12, 2002: President Bush calls for a UN Security Resolution on Iraq.

October 16, 2002: Congress passes the Iraq Resolution.

November 8, 2002: The UN Security Council adopts Resolution 1441 which authorized the resumption of weapons inspections in Iraq and promised "serious consequences" for non-compliance.

January 28, 2003: President Bush remarks in his State of The Union address that "we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs"

February 5, 2003: US Secretary of State Colin Powell addresses the United Nations General Assembly, continuing U.S. efforts to gain UN authorization for an invasion, citing what later turned out to be allegedly faulty intelligence by an Iraqi immigrant describing a "mobile biological weapons laboratory."

March 17, 2003: President Bush issues a 48-hour deadline for Saddam Hussein and his two sons Uday and Qusay Hussein to leave the country immediately.

March 18, 2003: A day before the deadline was due to expire, the bombing of Iraq by the United States, the United Kingdom, Spain, Italy, Poland, Australia, and Denmark began. (Note here that the US was backed by a coalition of countries in order to accomplish a clear goal)

March 19-20, 2003: The US led coalition of approximately 148,000 soldiers from the United States, 45,000 British soldiers, 2,000 Australian soldiers and 194 Polish soldiers from the special forces unit GROM, initiated the invasion of Iraq. The invasion force was also supported by Iraqi Kurdish militia troops, estimated to number upwards of 70,000. This was known as Operation Iraqi Freedom.

May 1, 2003: After 21 days, the invasion officially ends, with Saddam Hussein and his Baathist government being deposed from power.

December 13, 2003: Saddam is captured in ad-Dawr, Iraq, near his hometown of Tikrit, after spending the majority of the year on the run after being ousted from power. He is later hung for crimes against the people of Iraq, three years later on December 30, 2006.

And now, a timeline leading up to the attempts by President Obama to launch military action against Syria for supposedly using chemical weapons on its people:

March 16, 2011: An uprising is born in the city of Daraa, Syria.

April 25, 2011: Syrian troops and tanks are deployed to Daraa, Homs and other cities in Syria in an effort to quell the uprising which by then had consumed the entire country. This newborn uprising was met with all deliberate force from the Assad regime for the years succeeding the beginning of this uprising. A total of an estimated 110,875 people have been killed in an attempt to crush the rebellion (as of 2013). What was a protest turned into an armed rebellion, with troops defecting from the Syrian Army to fight for rebel forces.

August 20, 2012: President Obama in an interview with NBC's Chuck Todd draws a "red line" for the Assad regime and threatens military action if it were to be discovered that it has used chemical weapons against it's own people. "We have been very clear to the Assad regime, but also to other players on the ground, that a red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized," the president said. "That would change my calculus. That would change my equation."

March 19, 2013: Rebels in the Syrian Civil War accuse President Bashar al-Assad of launching a chemical attack against them in the city of Aleppo, the attack killed 24 people.

April 22, 2013: The terrorist group Hezbollah enters the war in support of the Assad regime.

June 13, 2013:President Obama approves arming the Syrian Rebels against the Assad regime.

Thursday, August 21, 2013: A Sarin gas attack is unleashed in the region known as the Gouta, near the Syrian capital of Damascus. The attack was responsible for the deaths of at least 1,400 people. Once again, rebels accuse Bashar al-Assad of launching the attack. This leads to the Obama Administration calling for strikes against the Assad regime, calling on Britain and France to join them in the effort.

Thursday, August 29, 2013: British Parliament rejects military action against Syria, leaving the US and possibly France to organize a limited strike. (Note here, that British rejected Obama's proposal, and unlike the Iraq invasion, there is no coalition of nations coming to the aid of the United States)

Saturday, August 31, 2013: President Barack Obama continues moving for strikes against Syria, after citing "undeniable" evidence that the Assad regime was responsible for the chemical attacks in Aleppo and the Gouta.

Tuesday, September 3, 2013: House Speaker John Boehner throws his support behind Obama's proposed strikes against Syria.

Wednesday, September 4, 2013: Reports surface saying that Arab countries are offering to pay America to launch a full scale invasion of Syria. Secretary of Defense John Kerry did not deny or reject the offer: 'With respect to Arab countries offering to bear costs and to assist, the answer is profoundly yes,' Kerry said. 'They have. That offer is on the table.' Also, later that night, the Senate Relations Committee votes 10-7 authorizing Obama to use limited strikes on Syria.

Monday, September 9, 2013: The Senate returns to Capitol Hill to consider giving Obama the power to strike Syria.

Note that in one instance, a president skilfully pulls together a coalition to accomplish one goal. In the other, a president incompetently tries to organize a coalition to accomplish an unknown goal. He is rejected immediately by the international community, leaving him to possibly take on this task alone. He risks alienating our allies and angering our enemies even further.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

March 16, 2011: An uprising is born in the city of Daraa, Syria.

April 25, 2011: Syrian troops and tanks are deployed to Daraa, Homs and other cities in Syria in an effort to quell the uprising which by then had consumed the entire country. This newborn uprising was met with all deliberate force from the Assad regime for the years succeeding the beginning of this uprising. A total of an estimated 110,875 people have been killed in an attempt to crush the rebellion (as of 2013). What was a protest turned into an armed rebellion, with troops defecting from the Syrian Army to fight for rebel forces.

The Syrian uprising was born out of Libya and the message we sent to the region we will support any rebel force.

 

[TemplarKormac]

March 16, 2011: An uprising is born in the city of Daraa, Syria.

April 25, 2011: Syrian troops and tanks are deployed to Daraa, Homs and other cities in Syria in an effort to quell the uprising which by then had consumed the entire country. This newborn uprising was met with all deliberate force from the Assad regime for the years succeeding the beginning of this uprising. A total of an estimated 110,875 people have been killed in an attempt to crush the rebellion (as of 2013). What was a protest turned into an armed rebellion, with troops defecting from the Syrian Army to fight for rebel forces.

The Syrian uprising was born out of Libya and the message we sent to the region we will support any rebel force.

The uprising as it was in relevance to Syria, not Libya, Quick. The uprising there began in Daraa. And "we will support any rebel force" is just as bad as drawing a red line.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Congress needs to withdraw the US endorsement for the conventions against the use of chemical weapons if Congress isn't willing to do anything to enforce them.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

March 16, 2011: An uprising is born in the city of Daraa, Syria.

April 25, 2011: Syrian troops and tanks are deployed to Daraa, Homs and other cities in Syria in an effort to quell the uprising which by then had consumed the entire country. This newborn uprising was met with all deliberate force from the Assad regime for the years succeeding the beginning of this uprising. A total of an estimated 110,875 people have been killed in an attempt to crush the rebellion (as of 2013). What was a protest turned into an armed rebellion, with troops defecting from the Syrian Army to fight for rebel forces.

The Syrian uprising was born out of Libya and the message we sent to the region we will support any rebel force.

The uprising as it was in relevance to Syria, not Libya, Quick. The uprising there began in Daraa. And "we will support any rebel force" is just as bad as drawing a red line.

So it was a coincidence that the Syrian conflict gathered all its momentum right after the Libyan war?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Congress needs to withdraw the US endorsement for the conventions against the use of chemical weapons if Congress isn't willing to do anything to enforce them.

Well, in what way does it serve us to launch ourselves into a war that has none of our national interests at heart?

 

[TemplarKormac]

The Syrian uprising was born out of Libya and the message we sent to the region we will support any rebel force.

The uprising as it was in relevance to Syria, not Libya, Quick. The uprising there began in Daraa. And "we will support any rebel force" is just as bad as drawing a red line.

So it was a coincidence that the Syrian conflict gathered all its momentum right after the Libyan war?

It might have, but I'm going for specifics, namely relevance here. Take it or leave it.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

And it was a coincidence that the invasion of Iraq was two years after 9-11?

 

[TemplarKormac]

And it was a coincidence that the invasion of Iraq was two years after 9-11?

Negged for trolling.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

The uprising as it was in relevance to Syria, not Libya, Quick. The uprising there began in Daraa. And "we will support any rebel force" is just as bad as drawing a red line.

So it was a coincidence that the Syrian conflict gathered all its momentum right after the Libyan war?

It might have, but I'm going for specifics, namely relevance here. Take it or leave it.

It's a very good timeline, but that is such an important fact of history about Libya that can't be omitted.

 

[TemplarKormac]

So it was a coincidence that the Syrian conflict gathered all its momentum right after the Libyan war?

It might have, but I'm going for specifics, namely relevance here. Take it or leave it.

It's a very good timeline, but that is such an important fact of history about Libya that can't be omitted.

There were independent uprisings all across the middle east. yes the one that started them all did happen in Libya, but as far as Syria is concerned, it began in Daraa.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your error is simple. TL: Bush employed hundreds of thousands and hundreds of billions of dollars, which has resulted in Iraq growing closer to Iran. Obama is going use cruise missiles to punish Assad for using poison gas on his people.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Your error is simple. TL: Bush employed hundreds of thousands and hundreds of billions of dollars, which has resulted in Iraq growing closer to Iran. Obama is going use cruise missiles to punish Assad for using poison gas on his people.

Who is TL? Oh, that was a typo nevermind.

You don't punch a bear in the face and not expect him to bite your head off, Jake. This missile strike is a precursor to something a whole lot bigger. How will Obama destroy those weapons if they are moved into populated areas? The potential for civilian death increases exponentially. The need for troops becomes necessary.

 

[JakeStarkey]

TK, Syria is not a bear, and Russia will not support Syria at all, except to try to slip in more gas munitions.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

TK, Syria is not a bear, and Russia will not support Syria at all, except to try to slip in more gas munitions.

There was no threat of Russian involvement when we invaded Iraq, now there is. The evolution of how we got where we are cannot be ignored.

 

[KissMy]

We already sending my tax dollars to aid the Syrian people. The United States has provided the Syrian people with over $1 billion since the crisis began. Now the refugees have increased 10 fold & so will the aid. This will cost us billions more if we do nothing.

If we can remove Assad for around the $1.1 billion we spent overthrowing Qudaffe, I am all for it. We will be money ahead of aiding refugees. Plus we will benefit greatly from the Qatar pipelines Assad & Russia are blocking. I am for allowing Obama to spend up to $5 billion to get rid of the Assad regime however he sees fit.

The United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Jordan, Turkey, Kuwait, Caspian Sea region, France & Most of the EU want a pipeline through Syria. This pipeline will greatly reduce energy profits of & demand from Russia & Iran. Also Iraq, Turkey & Jordan want the over 4.5 million refugees driven out of Syria by chemical weapons to return. Aljazeera also says Syrian refugees & rebels also want the USA to attack.

The our military budget is almost double that of most other presidents. When Obama wants to slow the rate of increase in military spending, idiots scream bloody murder that he is weak & inviting attacks on US. When he want's to use it to project strength, win US friends, allies, energy & economic benefits, the idiots scream the same stupid B.S. Military spending is not an entitlement program, it is to help serve your country.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Congress needs to withdraw the US endorsement for the conventions against the use of chemical weapons if Congress isn't willing to do anything to enforce them.

Well, in what way does it serve us to launch ourselves into a war that has none of our national interests at heart?

I'm trying to say that we shouldn't be pretending we care about the use of chemical weapons on innocent civilians if we aren't going to do anything about it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Congress needs to withdraw the US endorsement for the conventions against the use of chemical weapons if Congress isn't willing to do anything to enforce them.

Well, in what way does it serve us to launch ourselves into a war that has none of our national interests at heart?

I'm trying to say that we shouldn't be pretending we care about the use of chemical weapons on innocent civilians if we aren't going to do anything about it.

My question to you is WHY should we do anything about it? The proof is sketchy at best, you have allies and enemies at each others throats at the G-20 summit, not one iota of proof of whom or what decided to launch those chemical attacks, Carbine. It is an ideal way of "missing the forest for the trees." Our effort would be wasted if we wound up hitting the wrong side.

On top of that, one of those sides is a terrorist group. Why should we come running to their defense when they killed 3,000 people on 9/11 with utter impunity?

 

[TemplarKormac]

TK, Syria is not a bear, and Russia will not support Syria at all, except to try to slip in more gas munitions.

It was just an analogy, Jake.

If Russia isn't going to support Syria, then why is it moving ships in or around the Persian Gulf?

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Why is so little attention being given to all the refugees our wars are creating?

Refugees of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Refugees from Iraq have increased in number since the US-led invasion into Iraq in March 2003. An estimated 1.6-2.0 million people have fled the country. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees estimated in a report released in November 2006 that more than 1.6 million Iraqis had left Iraq since March 2003, nearly 7 percent of the total population. The BBC on 22 January 2007 placed the refugee figure at 2 million. By 16 February 2007, António Guterres, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, said that the external refugee number reached 2 million and that within Iraq there are an estimated 1.7 million internally displaced people. The refugee traffic out of the country has increased since the intensification of civil war.[4][5]

As of June 21, 2007, the UNHCR estimated that over 4.2 million Iraqis have been displaced, with 2 million within the Iraq and 2.2 million in neighboring countries.[6]

Most ventured to Jordan and Syria, creating demographic shifts that have worried both governments. A fear persisted in both countries, and others hosting sizable Iraqi refugee populations, that sectarian tensions would spill over amongst the exiles. These refugees were estimated to have been leaving Iraq at a rate of 3000-per-day by December 2006.

As many as 110,000 Iraqis could be targeted as collaborators because of their work for coalition forces.[7] A May 25, 2007 article notes that in the past seven months only 69 people from Iraq have been granted refugee status in the United States.[8] Roughly 40% of Iraq's middle class is believed to have fled, the U.N. said. Most are fleeing systematic persecution and have no desire to return.[9] Refugees are mired in poverty as they are generally barred from working in their host countries.[10][11] In Syria alone an estimated 50,000 Iraqi girls and women, many of them widows, are forced into prostitution just to survive.[12][13]