Support January 6th Prisoners!

[Doug1943]

Thanks for letting me know Batcat. I thought I had cleared out all of the working links to the donation, spam and product sales sites that were outside our rules. If you find anymore. PM me, and I will clear them.

A question: I often link to Wikipedia articles when I post things. But Wikipedia solicits donations. So are Wiki links okay?

Is the rule that we cannot link to any site that requests donations somewhere on the site? That would include a lot of interesting Substack sites.

 

[candycorn]

Well, that's different. The people who watch TV don't vote on the awards.

Sure they do. The People's Choice Awards...just for one.

But the people who go to rallies, do vote.

False.

Nearly half of Capitol rioters from NC didn’t vote in the election, public records show

Fox 46 checked the voting records of all 12 people from North Carolina who are charged in the capitol attack. Nearly half of them, 5, aren’t registered to vote in the state.

www.cbs17.com

The fallacy is actually this: if people don't go to the rallies of candidate X, they won't vote for candidate X. But this is not so.

The fallacy is that you truly think you have a remote clue of what you're discussing.

 

[Chillicothe]

A few have been jailed without charges for over two years.

I will call that hand.
You have asserted it, poster Esdraelon.
Now prove it. Give the forum some credible vetting of your allegation.
Sourcing that we can have faith in.

• Who are these folks that have been jailed?
• How many are there?
• And, if it is true as you claim......that no charges have been filed against them, what are they in jail for?

It's Show-Time for you, poster Esdraelon.
Show.
Or go.
Sorta like the poker table. Your hand has been called.

 

[White 6]

A question: I often link to Wikipedia articles when I post things. But Wikipedia solicits donations. So are Wiki links okay?

Is the rule that we cannot link to any site that requests donations somewhere on the site? That would include a lot of interesting Substack sites.

I use them. They don't always push their donations thing and in principle they publish middle of the road supposedly peer reviewed, not hard core partisan. Don't know if you got into either of the posted links. Some in there might be described as a little different, to say the least.

 

[Doug1943]

I use them. They don't always push their donations thing and in principle they publish middle of the road supposedly peer reviewed, not hard core partisan. Don't know if you got into either of the posted links. Some in there might be described as a little different, to say the least.

So, if a site 'pushes' its donation requests, or is 'partisan', you can't link to it? And 'pushing' means just having a 'donate' button?

 

[Ringo]

Nothing pisses Americans off more than being told their political heroes are frauds, our country is the bad guy and all the shit about democracy and freedom they've been conditioned to believe is bullshit

 

[Doug1943]

Nothing pisses Americans off more than being told their political heroes are frauds, our country is the bad guy and all the shit about democracy and freedom they've been conditioned to believe is bullshit

Of course, the citizens of any country would be pissed off being told that about their political heroes and their country. Germans don't realy like being told about their history, nor do the Japanese. When Krushchev revealed the crimes of Stalin in 1956 there must have been a lot of Russians who were very upset. It would be interesting to see what the citizens of Cuba and North Korea think about their leaders, but of course in socialist countries criticizing the Leaders gets you a prison sentence or worse.

 

[Lastamender]

Of course, the citizens of any country would be pissed off being told that about their political heroes and their country. Germans don't realy like being told about their history, nor do the Japanese. When Krushchev revealed the crimes of Stalin in 1956 there must have been a lot of Russians who were very upset. It would be interesting to see what the citizens of Cuba and North Korea think about their leaders, but of course in socialist countries criticizing the Leaders gets you a prison sentence or worse.

That is what is going on here. They have flipped patriotism on its head. Patriotism is not following anyone blindly.

 

[White 6]

So, if a site 'pushes' its donation requests, or is 'partisan', you can't link to it? And 'pushing' means just having a 'donate' button?

This isn't an advertising site, nor a cause fund raising site, so if wanting to raise money for save the whales, support your local militia, or selling Keto Gummies, etc, it won't fly here.

 

[Doug1943]

That is what is going on here. They have flipped patriotism on its head. Patriotism is not following anyone blindly.

You may want to define patriotism as being cooly rational, donating to charity, or whatever positive virtues you like. But that definition doesn't describe a certain human reality that we need a word for: love of one's group, where that group is the nation/country.

In some places, tribalism is so strong that the tribe trumps the country -- this is generally true in Africa, and also true to a big extent in Muslim countries which are unfortunate enough to have Sunni Shia diversity. It's generally true where there is powerful ethnic diversity: Yugoslavia, Sri Lanka, even in Ukraine where a significant minority think of themselves as Russian rather than Ukrainian.

But in countries which have undergrown sufficient economic/social growth, the tribes get dissolved -- as a rule, but there are exceptions -- and this 'group love' gets transferred to the state. Most if not all European countries, long ago, had diverse tribal groups which got crunched up and, over time, reconstituted as a 'nation'. (Spain is an example where this has not completely happened: thus the Basques and Catalans.)

Until about 50 years ago, Americans both Left and Right, the great majority anyway, loved their country, even if they were critical of its rulers. The pro-Communist folk singer Woody Guthrie's most famous song celebrates America -- "This Land is Your Land".
[ ]

Starting in the 1960s, this began to change, first of all with the young anti-war activists who were repulsed by Southern racial oppression, and the American actions in the war in Vietnam.

These people went on to become professors and teachers, and we now see this attitude towards the country -- that it's founded on colonial conquest and slavery and xyz-phobia ---, very widespread among the young college-going/went generation.

The influence of the educational intelligentsia is not the only factor -- the fact that, in reality, America, because of its geographic position and great economic/military strength, is not threatened by any foreign power, means that one driver of patriotism -- you need a country to protect you -- is absent.

But the non-college Americans retain the traditional attitude towards their country. They love their country, think it's pretty good compared to all the others -- even with respect to treatment of racial minorities -- and are patriots.

This does NOT mean that they are all, or even in their majority, well-informed, cool, rational thinkers. That desirable quality is orthogonal to patriotism ... even a bit in tension with it.

Patriotism is one expression of altruism ... just as loyality to your genetic kin is. It's a step up from genetic-kin loyalty, just as the latter is a step up from total selfishness.

Anyway, you may hate them because of their views, you may think that they're white supremacists/male chauvinists/homo/trans/MAP-phobes, and stupid ones to boot, but there is no question that they think that (1) they love America, and (2) that the Left does not.

And they're right.

 

[Lastamender]

You may want to define patriotism as being cooly rational, donating to charity, or whatever positive virtues you like. But that definition doesn't describe a certain human reality that we need a word for: love of one's group, where that group is the nation/country.

In some places, tribalism is so strong that the tribe trumps the country -- this is generally true in Africa, and also true to a big extent in Muslim countries which are unfortunate enough to have Sunni Shia diversity. It's generally true where there is powerful ethnic diversity: Yugoslavia, Sri Lanka, even in Ukraine where a significant minority think of themselves as Russian rather than Ukrainian.

But in countries which have undergrown sufficient economic/social growth, the tribes get dissolved -- as a rule, but there are exceptions -- and this 'group love' gets transferred to the state. Most if not all European countries, long ago, had diverse tribal groups which got crunched up and, over time, reconstituted as a 'nation'. (Spain is an example where this has not completely happened: thus the Basques and Catalans.)

Until about 50 years ago, Americans both Left and Right, the great majority anyway, loved their country, even if they were critical of its rulers. The pro-Communist folk singer Woody Guthrie's most famous song celebrates America -- "This Land is Your Land".
[ ]

Starting in the 1960s, this began to change, first of all with the young anti-war activists who were repulsed by Southern racial oppression, and the American actions in the war in Vietnam.

These people went on to become professors and teachers, and we now see this attitude towards the country -- that it's founded on colonial conquest and slavery and xyz-phobia ---, very widespread among the young college-going/went generation.

The influence of the educational intelligentsia is not the only factor -- the fact that, in reality, America, because of its geographic position and great economic/military strength, is not threatened by any foreign power, means that one driver of patriotism -- you need a country to protect you -- is absent.

But the non-college Americans retain the traditional attitude towards their country. They love their country, think it's pretty good compared to all the others -- even with respect to treatment of racial minorities -- and are patriots.

This does NOT mean that they are all, or even in their majority, well-informed, cool, rational thinkers. That desirable quality is orthogonal to patriotism ... even a bit in tension with it.

Patriotism is one expression of altruism ... just as loyality to your genetic kin is. It's a step up from genetic-kin loyalty, just as the latter is a step up from total selfishness.

Anyway, you may hate them because of their views, you may think that they're white supremacists/male chauvinists/homo/trans/MAP-phobes, and stupid ones to boot, but there is no question that they think that (1) they love America, and (2) that the Left does not.

And they're right.

A touch long winded. I am talking about the fact challenging an election as a right that should be taken seriously. Not dismissed as unpatriotic or criminal in anyway. Intimidation, propaganda, and hate directed at any American for wanting answers is a slap in the face and is not patriotic.

 

[Doug1943]

This isn't an advertising site, nor a cause fund raising site, so if wanting to raise money for save the whales, support your local militia, or selling Keto Gummies, etc, it won't fly here.

Yes, I understand that. This is a where a lot of political discussion takes place. It helps the discussion to be able to give examples, or show people where they can go if they want to read further. And of course political people, Left and Right, support causes.

Anyway, I take it that if someone links to a political site, which happens, somewhere on the site, to have a 'donate' button, that post will be deleted? And even if there is no 'donate' button, the site linked to cannot be a 'cause', eg too sign a petition?

By the way, I use Wikipedia a lot, and I get appeals to donate maybe once a week (although I am a regular donor).

I completely understand the desire not to allow advertising, spam, non-political stuff. But I think the mods ought to discuss the policy with respect to political sites. Why not let both sides link to sites that support their beliefs? Where would the harm be? I think it would make USMB an even more interesting site.

 

[Lord Long Rod]

I wouldn't give those traitors jack. They can rot in jail for all I care.

Says Special Agent OKfine

 

[White 6]

Yes, I understand that. This is a where a lot of political discussion takes place. It helps the discussion to be able to give examples, or show people where they can go if they want to read further. And of course political people, Left and Right, support causes.

Anyway, I take it that if someone links to a political site, which happens, somewhere on the site, to have a 'donate' button, that post will be deleted? And even if there is no 'donate' button, the site linked to cannot be a 'cause', eg too sign a petition?

By the way, I use Wikipedia a lot, and I get appeals to donate maybe once a week (although I am a regular donor).

I completely understand the desire not to allow advertising, spam, non-political stuff. But I think the mods ought to discuss the policy with respect to political sites. Why not let both sides link to sites that support their beliefs? Where would the harm be? I think it would make USMB an even more interesting site.

You can re-read, (as I am sure you have) the rules for posting. Like I said, not a cause site for specific groups to network in, fund raise in, or cause the board legal problems in, if that is what you mean. I am sure those folks have message boards for that kind of thing, but we don't allow links to other message boards either.

 

[Doug1943]

A touch long winded. I am talking about the fact challenging an election as a right that should be taken seriously. Not dismissed as unpatriotic or criminal in anyway. Intimidation, propaganda, and hate directed at any American for wanting answers is a slap in the face and is not patriotic.

Yes, you're right about the length. I know few people will read it, but I'm hoping that those who do (if any) will discuss this question of 'what patriotism is' (or, better, 'how should we use the word "patriotism"?' with me. It's a very important issue, which comes up a lot.

My point, patriotism is not wisdom, it's not conservative politics, it's not liberalism. It's a non-rational (not irrational) emotion ... love of country. The Germans who fought so hard against us in WWII were patriots. You could also have been a patriotic German and opposed Hitler, even fought with the Allies against the Wehrmacht. Being patriotic does not mean being wise, or good, or democratic. Those are separate virtues.

Those people on 6 January acted unwisely, even criminally (certainly from a legal point of view). But you can be a good person and commit criminal acts, believing you are acting in a good cause -- and you may be right.

If they had protested peacefully, questioning the election, then I suspect few people -- except extreme Leftists -- would have called them criminals. But they got suckered into doing something that is going to keep helping the Left for years to come. The patriotic side has got to become smarter.

 

[Lastamender]

Yes, you're right about the length. I know few people will read it, but I'm hoping that those who do (if any) will discuss this question of 'what patriotism is' (or, better, 'how should we use the word "patriotism"?' with me. It's a very important issue, which comes up a lot.

My point, patriotism is not wisdom, it's not conservative politics, it's not liberalism. It's a non-rational (not irrational) emotion ... love of country. The Germans who fought so hard against us in WWII were patriots. You could also have been a patriotic German and opposed Hitler, even fought with the Allies against the Wehrmacht. Being patriotic does not mean being wise, or good, or democratic. Those are separate virtues.

Those people on 6 January acted unwisely, even criminally (certainly from a legal point of view). But you can be a good person and commit criminal acts, believing you are acting in a good cause -- and you may be right.

If they had protested peacefully, questioning the election, then I suspect few people -- except extreme Leftists -- would have called them criminals. But they got suckered into doing something that is going to keep helping the Left for years to come. The patriotic side has got to become smarter.

The violence there was was instigated by the FBI. That violence changed nothing that happened Nov.3rd and the days after.

 

[Dante Reawakened]

The Jan 6 whatever-you-call-it (more than a riot, less than an insurrection) was a bonehead stunt and an enormous gift to the Left, a gift that will keep on giving for years.

It's what happens when you have a movement, but not an organization. Your demonstrations are vulnerable to crazies and provocateurs. Our demonstrations in the future must be stewarded by men who are properly trained and equipped to defend our meetings, and to deal with troublemakers.

However, these people are our own. They genuinely believed the election had been stolen, and got caught up in this crazy, pointless action. People don't act sensibly when they're in a crowd. But they're ours. So patriots must support them.

A good way to do this would be to send a letter or postcard to a prisoner. You can get their names and addresses here:
Deleted link after reviewing as it goes to a site for donations, not in keeping with board Rules.

Support January 6th Prisoners! Yes! Prisoners deserve to be treated well. Send food, toiletries, and butt salve​

 

[Dante Reawakened]

Send them money.

KY

 

[Chillicothe]

"The violence there was was instigated by the FBI. That violence changed nothing that happened Nov.3rd and the days after."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

A mixed response to the above:

• Prove that it was instigated by the FBI. Any jackass can make a claim anonymously on an American internet social media platform. Is that the case here?
  I don't know for sure; however......if the good poster Lastamender CAN prove it, then the "jackass" label may not apply. However v.2.0.....if he cannot, or will not.....then yeah, I could be persuaded to a certain degree that there is a jackass-element at play.
  Let's see, before passing judgement.
  Batter up, poster Lastamender.
  Show.
  Or go.
  Don't convince the forum that you are a jackass.

------

OK, I said 'mixed response'.

• I mean by that, I quite agree that the violence committed by the MAGA/QAnon/Oathkeeper/ProudBoy axis of evil did NOT change the true results of the November 3rd election....either at the top of the ballot, or for all those other elective positions on the down-ballot.
  So, a bunch of jackasses are now going to prison and/or have a criminal record for blind partisan jackassery that, as poster Lastamender argues.....did not change the Biden victory.
  Seems like a poor decision on their part. No?

IMHO

 

[Lastamender]

-----------------------------------------------------------------

A mixed response to the above:

• Prove that it was instigated by the FBI. Any jackass can make a claim anonymously on an American internet social media platform. Is that the case here?
  I don't know for sure; however......if the good poster Lastamender CAN prove it, then the "jackass" label may not apply. However v.2.0.....if he cannot, or will not.....then yeah, I could be persuaded to a certain degree that there is a jackass-element at play.
  Let's see, before passing judgement.
  Batter up, poster Lastamender.
  Show.
  Or go.
  Don't convince the forum that you are a jackass.

------

OK, I said 'mixed response'.

• I mean by that, I quite agree that the violence committed by the MAGA/QAnon/Oathkeeper/ProudBoy axis of evil did NOT change the true results of the November 3rd election....either at the top of the ballot, or for all those other elective positions on the down-ballot.
  So, a bunch of jackasses are now going to prison and/or have a criminal record for blind partisan jackassery that, as poster Lastamender argues.....did not change the Biden victory.
  Seems like a poor decision on their part. No?

IMHO