Support January 6th Prisoners!

[Lastamender]

Dead end, troll. I give no fucks about Pelosi.

Dead end is right.

 

[Lesh]

well but you were just fine with Kamala getting donations and no doubt tax monies sneakily given to leftist orgs to get out those ratty little blm/antifa creeps weren't ya.
well..the republic was in such danger from a bunch of unarmed buffalo headdress wearin half naked guys who stayed within the rope guidelines...and of course...AOC Was murdered in the process. Leftist males are sooooooo soft. BOO!

LOLOL

Odd. I saw those creeps standing on the House and Senate chambers.

Hardly within the ropes

 

[Calypso Jones]

Odd. I saw those creeps standing on the House and Senate chambers.

Hardly within the ropes

i guess you can see whatever the propaganda arm of the dem party, ie the gutter media, wants you to see when they pick and choose, crop and edit. Just like they did the size of Biden and Harris' 'rallies' and dem town halls. and you don't know any better.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

They were venting their disappointment in a system that may have defrauded them and their vote... I also think they were rallied up by undercover FBI agents or informants and the capitol police either allowed some into the capitol or didn't try and keep them out which caused the halls to be flooded....

But my question is do we prosecute and punish fairly in America? because I've always thought we did... however in this case there are some political motivations that shouldn't be there and people are having their rights trampled on....

No, we do not prosecute and punish fairly in America..


This is well argued and evidenced if you took a moment to read any history of the judicial system in America....but you folks were too busy calling everything CRT....

Race and the Criminal Justice System

eji.org

The problem is.....when it was black folks being unfairly prosecuted and punished by the judicial system, you had no issues with it...you either ignored it or supported it...but you never opposed it...



But a bunch of people having the entitlement and audacity that they can just overturn an election because they are butthurt and being punished for it isn't a case of being unfairly prosecuted..

 

[Rambunctious]

No, we do not prosecute and punish fairly in America..


This is well argued and evidenced if you took a moment to read any history of the judicial system in America....but you folks were too busy calling everything CRT....

Race and the Criminal Justice System

eji.org

The problem is.....when it was black folks being unfairly prosecuted and punished by the judicial system, you had no issues with it...you either ignored it or supported it...but you never opposed it...



But a bunch of people having the entitlement and audacity that they can just overturn an election because they are butthurt and being punished for it isn't a case of being unfairly prosecuted..

Back to slavery again?.... give it up man its not 1858....

 

[PeterPilot]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate the poster's sincere concern over my ability ....or courage....to read what he posts. Duly noted.

But, I did read the article in the link above. And value the intent to enhance the understanding of all of us here on USMB.

To be fair though, the article is somewhat dated (August 2021) vis-a-vis the poster's claims that numerous J6 insurrectionists remain in jail in violation of habaes corpus requirements.

And, the article focuses NOT on broad habaes corpus issue but rather, a single prisoner --one of Sicknick's sprayers...... where a higher court reversed a lower court's 'no bail' ruling.

However, the article does offer some stats, some numbers, albeit dated.
To wit: "Joe Biden’s Justice Department has sought pre-trial detention for roughly 100 Capitol defendants. About 60 remain behind bars denied bail until either a trial begins next year or a plea agreement is reached."

OK, that was 17 months ago. We do not have numbers ....provided by any poster here on how many remain in jail after being denied bail, or after their bail rescinded.

Nor has any poster offered us 'why'.....any prisoners alleged to be still held in jail, is still there. As we know, any court, all courts, must apply their local-specific judgment on the likelihood of arrested suspect showing up for the trial. Hence, they are offered a bail opportunity....in varying dollar amounts depending on the judgement of their reliability. Or......if the court feels the arrestee is a flight risk, or a danger, or has caused conflict or injury in jail.....well, they may not be allowed bail at all.

'Where we are at on this message board vis-a-vis the frequent assertion that many people who attacked police or the Capitol on the J6 event remain in jail....with no charges, often claimed to be in solitary-confinement....yet, no poster has been able to vet the allegation of these folks in jail. No names. No locations. No explanation on why they are in jail.

So, I am skeptical....tho open-minded.....that any of these claims are true.

If one is informed about the issue....well, show us. Tell us in a manner that can be verified.

If I may ask a question as a Rookie here.

How would you feel if your son, daughter or brother were one of those detained without Habeas Corpus? Straight and honest answers are allowed.

 

[Chillicothe]

"How would you feel if your son, daughter or brother were one of those detained without Habeas Corpus?"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, good poster PP......I still ain't the brightest candle on the cake....despite being old.

However, one thing I think I have learned is one should keep hypothetical questions at arm's length. Very long arms, by the way.

Here's the deal poster PP:
Neither you nor any other MAGA-fringie on this chatroom has been able to provide the forum with credible, verifiable, reportage on the so-called "wrongly-imprisoned" J6 attackers. Despite numerous, many, a lot, frequent, and insistent ....queries to show us what the hell you---or they ---- are talking about.

I ain't calling you unschooled, nor a fake and a phony. But.......

But.......when......when .....you can provide us a list of who remains in jail for their activities on J6 without a trial to date, and, if possible give us some context as to 'why' they may still be in jail....well, then.....then...we can consider your arguments as substantial enough to enter into our discussions here.

In short, my avatar is challenging your avatar to come up with a listing of:

• how many,
• who are they,
• and why are they there..

Do that, and we can then entertain your other queries.

Looking forward to your studied contributions.

 

[PeterPilot]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, good poster PP......I still ain't the brightest candle on the cake....despite being old.

However, one thing I think I have learned is one should keep hypothetical questions at arm's length. Very long arms, by the way.

Here's the deal poster PP:
Neither you nor any other MAGA-fringie on this chatroom has been able to provide the forum with credible, verifiable, reportage on the so-called "wrongly-imprisoned" J6 attackers. Despite numerous, many, a lot, frequent, and insistent ....queries to show us what the hell you---or they ---- are talking about.

I ain't calling you unschooled, nor a fake and a phony. But.......

But.......when......when .....you can provide us a list of who remains in jail for their activities on J6 without a trial to date, and, if possible give us some context as to 'why' they may still be in jail....well, then.....then...we can consider your arguments as substantial enough to enter into our discussions here.

In short, my avatar is challenging your avatar to come up with a listing of:

• how many,
• who are they,
• and why are they there..

Do that, and we can then entertain your other queries.

Looking forward to your studied contributions.

Yes, it's best to keep uncomfortable questions at arms length when one is in denial of reality and threatened by the truth.

 

[Chillicothe]

it's best to keep uncomfortable questions at arms length when one is in denial of reality and threatened by the truth.

??????
Non sequitur much?
What does your statement above mean?
How and why is that applicable to our requests for you to back up your word about J6 prisoners?

 

[Doug1943]

Yes, they were duped into believing the election was stolen and that inspired them to storm the Capitol.

How much blame do you place on Trump for convincing them of that falsehood?

That's a good question. I place some blame on him, simply for not foreseeing that something like this might happen, and thus taking the necessary steps to prevent it happening. He did tell the protestors to be peaceful, but that might have been a cunning attempt to put down a marker so that he could escape legal responsibility.

That injunction to "be peaceful" can be balanced with his statement, urging people to come to Washington, that "it will be wild".

However, the real question is: did he want them to storm the Capitol? I don't know the answer to that.

An argument against is: what good, from his point of view, could possibly have come from storming the Capitol? Did he really think that the Congressmen would say,"Oh, oh, I'm scared, I'll change my vote!"? You would have to be really stupid to think that.

On the other hand, he is stupid. But that stupid?

So, I don't know how much responsibility to put on him. If I were pushed, I'd say that at the conscious level, he did not have a plan to get his supporters to storm the Capitol, because he doesn't have any plans at all. He acts on impulse. He doesn't think things through. We can see lots of examples of that in his statements.

From my point of view, as someone on the Right -- you would no doubt say, "Far Right" -- the only real question is: what can we learn from this terrible defeat?

And the answer is, we must organize, and act as a disciplined body, with intelligent leadership. And this goes triple for situations like demonstrations, where the enemy will try to provoke us into doing stupid self-defeating things ... like storming the Capitol. An unorganized, emotional crowd will do things that no single member of it would do. (The classic study of crowd behavior was done almost 200 years ago.)

In the meantime, the J6 prisoners are our own, and patriots must support them.

 

[Doug1943]

No, we do not prosecute and punish fairly in America..


This is well argued and evidenced if you took a moment to read any history of the judicial system in America....but you folks were too busy calling everything CRT....

Race and the Criminal Justice System

eji.org

The problem is.....when it was black folks being unfairly prosecuted and punished by the judicial system, you had no issues with it...you either ignored it or supported it...but you never opposed it...



But a bunch of people having the entitlement and audacity that they can just overturn an election because they are butthurt and being punished for it isn't a case of being unfairly prosecuted..

I clicked on that link and read it [although it has a 'donate' box -- isn't that against the rules?] but it just asserts that Black people are treated unfairly in the courts, with some statistics about how they are represented out of proportion to their numbers in the prison and parole systems. It doesn't give any evidence that this disproportion is due to unequal treatment, as opposed to the fact that Blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Do you have any better references?

I know that one example -- which the Critical Race Theorists always used -- was that 'Black cocaine' is crack cocaine, which gets a much heavier sentence than 'white cocaine', which is not crack. That would seem to me to be a reasonable example of unfair treatment, although I have not read any attempts to defend the disparity in sentencing. But is there anything else?

Of course, it's perfectly possible that Blacks commit a disproportionate share of crime, AND that Blacks are unfairly treated in court. In fact, the former fact almost guarantees the latter.

How disproportionate? Well, the most reliable crime statistic is murder, or 'unlawful homicide'. It's the least subject to the personal judgement of a policeman, is almost always reported (many crimes are not, which is why the National Crime Survey is more reliable as a measure of crime than the number of people arrested and/or convicted.)

And in the United States, young Black males make up about 3% of the population ... and commit just over 50% of its murders. The proportion for other violent crimes isn't quite so astounding -- and remember, other crimes don't always get reported -- but it's very very high.

Of course, everyone reading this knows that it's true. That's why everyone reading this fails the 'Racist Footsteps Test', which I've posted before and which no liberal dares answer. (You're walking down a dark street at night and hear footsteps behind you. You turn around, and see that the people behind you are not Black. Do you feel a sense of relief?)

So the argument that Blacks are in prison out of proportion to their numbers because of white racism doesn't hold water. White racism may be a factor, but unless you say it's white racism that makes Blacks commit these crimes in the first place, it's not the main factor.

Anyone interested in seeing some actual statistics on crime in America needs to look at the FBI's Uniform Crime Report. They have made the data for 2020 available here:
[ https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/home ]

 

[candycorn]

If I may ask a question as a Rookie here.

How would you feel if your son, daughter or brother were one of those detained without Habeas Corpus? Straight and honest answers are allowed.

Who is being held without Habeas?

Names please.

 

[Doug1943]

wasn't that what our FF's did Doug?

Seem all i hear of is their own anecdotal myopic reality

I had to look that up Doug , basically it's someone with no 'effs to give about their own class....

Then they would be Jingoists , JMHO

~S~

Yes. It's often 'morally' right to do something, but tactically wrong. If a mugger is pointing a cocked revolver at you, you might be morally right to refuse to give him your wallet, and tell him to go eff himself. But from a practical, tactical, point of view, you should hand it over.

Our Founding Fathers were pretty good tacticians. They could have tried to spark a revolution with the imposition of the Sugar Act, or the later Stamp Act ... but they didn't. Even with the Intolerable Acts, they waited ... and let the British fire the first shot, when they tried to seize the colonists arms at Concord.

You get a great moral advantage from letting the other guy fire the first shot, even if you lose a bit of tactical advantage since he gets the advantage of surprise.

In this game, you don't want the majority against you. They don't have to be actively with you -- many people will be ambivalent -- but you don't want the majority against you.

So you have to wait, and choose your time. Events, events, events. They can't be controlled by us. We have to wait until they align in our favor. The Bolsheviks did this in the Russian Revolution, an event well worth the study of patriots, ironic as it may seem.

'Patriot', 'nationalist', 'jingoist', 'national chauvinist' -- all discrete words to describe a spectrum of feeling towards one's own country.

Yes, I suppose 'lumpenproletariat' is a bit exotic. Today we call them the 'underclass'.

 

[Doug1943]

Your OP link has been deactivated. It has been taken down probably by management here and was likely used surreptitiously anyway to recruit names and addresses of supporters to harvest more people for the J6 Committee government screwballs to harass.

Yes, if you write a letter to a J6 prisoner, you will definitely end up on a list. Presumably, everyone knows that. I suppose you could send one with a fake name and fake return address, but this is just the reality of politics in America today. If you're an active patriot, there is a very good chance your name will end up on a list.

This is one reason it's so important to be careful what you say and write. Too many patriots write things like "We need to start shooting Democrats in the street". [I would give the link to this exact quote but I believe it's forbidden to do so here.] Well, if you write something insane like that, your name should end up on a list. But then this scrutiny is extended to people whose name shouldn't be on a list.

Never mind. I see tons of people holding up the Founding Fathers as examples to follow ... but if they're afraid of their names being on a list, they're hardly following in the footsteps of the Founders.

 

[Doug1943]

Support January 6th Prisoners! Yes! Prisoners deserve to be treated well. Send food, toiletries, and butt salve​

Be a good guy, and send them some of yours.

 

[toobfreak]

Yes, if you write a letter to a J6 prisoner, you will definitely end up on a list.

I've wondered if that is the only reason for the letter-writing campaign! That the letters won't even go to these people. At the very least, they will keep a database and look into who sent them hoping to find another pigeon for the picking!

 

[Doug1943]

The violence there was was instigated by the FBI. That violence changed nothing that happened Nov.3rd and the days after.

I believe that there were agents provocateurs in the crowd. Ray Epps seems to an outstanding candidate for one such.

However, two points:

(1) I believe we would have had the violence even without infiltrators encouraging it. I've just watched a video made by one of the J6 prisoners which positively celebrates what happened. He calls it "The First Step in the Next American Revolution." Presumably a great victory. To steal a line from Mr Pyrrhus, another such victory and we are undone.

(2) We ought to be smart enough not to fall for provocations. It's war, our enemy has no scruples, so we can expect every dirty trick in the book to be used against us.

That said, we have to be realistic. The patriot base is not very sophisticated. Plus there are more than a few men in it who seem to have manhood problems, and write and say stupid boastful things, threats against our opponents. And it's well known that a crowd will do things that no individual member of it, by himself, would.

So ... we have to be organized. On 6 January we should have had a group of well-trained, well-equiped stewards, marshalls, to keep order, protect the demonstrators from any violent counter-demonstrators, and to deal with provocateurs and crazies.

An organized group allows ordinary people to act like extraordinary people, if they have the right leadership. We have to start forming such groups -- first at the grassroots level, and then build upwards.

 

[Doug1943]

I've wondered if that is the only reason for the letter-writing campaign! That the letters won't even go to these people. At the very least, they will keep a database and look into who sent them hoping to find another pigeon for the picking!

Well, we'll find out if they get through, because I've send a few already and will send more.

We fact two threats: one is precipitate, unthought-through, illegal actions. If you're in a militia group, you'll get infiltrators trying to entrap you into doing something stupid. That group of idiots in Michigan fell right into that trap a couple of years ago. People who fall for this end up in prison.

The other threat is the idea that the enemy is all-powerful, that resistance is useless, our cause is hopeless, because 'They' control everything, even organizations that appear to be patriotic.

People who fall for this line might as well end up in prison, because they do nothing. They are effectively 'imprisoned' in their own misconceptions. There has always been a paranoid strain in American politics, but we should resist it.

The enemy is not all-powerful. Within the enemy camp there are many contradictions, clashes, conflicts of interest. Nor is the American state is not a monolith dedicated to destroying the country. For instance, there are many patriotic FBI agents who really want only to go after pedophiles, drug dealers, and genuine crazies who threaten violence.

Many families of the J6 prisoners are very active on their behalf. If a dubious organization appeared, which said it supported the prisoners but was actually a government front -- or, more likely, grifters seeking to divert cash to themselves -- they would pretty quickly be exposed. (Grifters are the bane of the patriotic movement and it's not at all impossible that some could seek to exploit the J6 prisoners. But they don't seem to have tried yet.)

 

[Faun]

That's a good question. I place some blame on him, simply for not foreseeing that something like this might happen, and thus taking the necessary steps to prevent it happening. He did tell the protestors to be peaceful, but that might have been a cunning attempt to put down a marker so that he could escape legal responsibility.

That injunction to "be peaceful" can be balanced with his statement, urging people to come to Washington, that "it will be wild".

However, the real question is: did he want them to storm the Capitol? I don't know the answer to that.

An argument against is: what good, from his point of view, could possibly have come from storming the Capitol? Did he really think that the Congressmen would say,"Oh, oh, I'm scared, I'll change my vote!"? You would have to be really stupid to think that.

On the other hand, he is stupid. But that stupid?

So, I don't know how much responsibility to put on him. If I were pushed, I'd say that at the conscious level, he did not have a plan to get his supporters to storm the Capitol, because he doesn't have any plans at all. He acts on impulse. He doesn't think things through. We can see lots of examples of that in his statements.

From my point of view, as someone on the Right -- you would no doubt say, "Far Right" -- the only real question is: what can we learn from this terrible defeat?

And the answer is, we must organize, and act as a disciplined body, with intelligent leadership. And this goes triple for situations like demonstrations, where the enemy will try to provoke us into doing stupid self-defeating things ... like storming the Capitol. An unorganized, emotional crowd will do things that no single member of it would do. (The classic study of crowd behavior was done almost 200 years ago.)

In the meantime, the J6 prisoners are our own, and patriots must support them.

Not an entirely bad assessment; but there was no "enemy" "provoking" Trump supporters to storm the Capitol. They themselves chose to do that and now they're paying the price.

As far as whether or not Trump wanted them to do that, why did he summon them to the Capitol? What did he hope they could accomplish being outside the Capitol while Congress was in the process of certifying the election inside the Capitol?

And while I don't know that he wanted them to storm the Capitol, he did nothing to get them out of there for hours.

 

[Chillicothe]

On 6 January we should have had a group of well-trained, well-equiped stewards, marshalls, to keep order....... An organized group allows ordinary people to act like extraordinary people, if they have the right leadership.

-----------------------------------------------------------
OK. So far.

But then, so we have these well-trained, well-equipped extraordinary people ....... to do what?
What's the goal.....for all that time, effort, expense, to equip and train?
What were you thinkin' of having them do on January 6th, D'43?