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[Doug1943]

Not an entirely bad assessment; but there was no "enemy" "provoking" Trump supporters to storm the Capitol. They themselves chose to do that and now they're paying the price.

As far as whether or not Trump wanted them to do that, why did he summon them to the Capitol? What did he hope they could accomplish being outside the Capitol while Congress was in the process of certifying the election inside the Capitol?

And while I don't know that he wanted them to storm the Capitol, he did nothing to get them out of there for hours.

You and I, although we are on opposite sides of the political barricades, are both rational thinkers. If we summoned a demonstration, we would have in mind, I assume, a goal for it.

This is not the case with Mr Trump.

Perhaps he just wanted to bask in the adulation of the crowd. Perhaps he wanted to threaten -- not physically, but with future reprisals in the primaries -- Republicans who voted to certify the results, by showing them how many people believed that the election was stolen.

You say that no one provoked Trump supporters to storm the Capitol. Perhaps you are not aware of the evidence that there were indeed people who were not genuine Trump supporters, urging the crowd to storm the Capitol. I am not saying that without these people, it would not have happened. And in any case, we should be smart enough to see through provacateurs.

If we focus on one man, Ray Epps, we will see what the people who claim provocateurs urged the crowd to storm the Capitol are talking about:
[ Who is Ray Epps? ]

There seems to be pretty clear evidence that he was urging the crowd to enter the Capitol. And he was originally on the list of people the FBI wanted. Then, he was removed. They won't say why.

'

Mr Epps’s image was included on the FBI Capitol Violence most wanted list, but it was removed around July last year.

While there is any number of reasons as to why he is no longer on the FBI’s list or hasn’t been charged, none have been given by either Mr Epps’s attorneys or the authorities.

Of the small number of other potential suspects removed from the lists, two were identified as photo journalists, two were minors, one was arrested and charged, while others were given designations or moved to other lists, like Californian Evan Neumann who fled to Belarus.

The vacuum of corroborated facts about the person identified by the FBI in photograph “16” has been filled with speculation stemming from a video showing crowds chanting “Fed! Fed! Fed!” after Mr Epps said on 5 January, “Tomorrow, we need to go into the Capitol”.

[ Who is Ray Epps? The FBI’s Capitol riot figure who has not been charged ]

Of course, if he was an agent, they wouldn't have put him on that list to start with ... unless the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.

If you go to Snopes to find out about him, you'll learn that he was not prosecuted because he "didn't enter the Capitol". But Stewart Rhodes, the head of the Oathkeepers, didn't enter the Capitol either, and he's been convicted of seditious conspiracy. (This shows us how reliable Snopes is when it comes to political issues.)

Of course, I'm sure you're aware that the FBI does penetrate groups which seem to be potential violent actors. What you may not know is that their agents -- who may not be professionals, employees of the FBI, but rather people they've "turned" -- often act as provocateurs, not just observers.

This seems to be the case with various Muslim groups they have penetrated, where they seem to have come very close to, even to have crossed, the line of 'entrapment'.

Here's what the leftwing Nation magazine had to say about it:
[ Deploying Informants, the FBI Stings Muslims ]

They did this with the Huttarees: Hutaree - Wikipedia

And they probably did it with the informant they developed in the Ku Klux Klan, in Meridian Mississippi, over fifty years ago.

Now, I have to confess, I didn't lose any sleep over what they did to the Klan, or to the Muslims, or for that matter with the Huttarees. But I probably should have.

So, I don't think it's entirely implausible that there were FBI informants -- who, remember, do not have to be professional agents, just people the FBI has 'turned' -- who went over the line, and became provocateurs.

But as I said, our side needs to understand that the enemy will do this sort of thing, and not fall for it.

 

[Doug1943]

-----------------------------------------------------------
OK. So far.

But then, so we have these well-trained, well-equipped extraordinary people ....... to do what?
What's the goal.....for all that time, effort, expense, to equip and train?
What were you thinkin' of having them do on January 6th, D'43?

They would have formed a ring around the demonstrators, dealt with any crazies or provocateurs, and kept the demonstrators from entering the Capitol, something that anyone with a brain in their head would know was a deadly trap.

Of course, organizational forms alone are nothing. There has to be the right sort of political leadership.

 

[sparky]

I believe that there were agents provocateurs in the crowd.

historically, a given....

There seems to be pretty clear evidence that he was urging the crowd to enter the Capitol. And he was originally on the list of people the FBI wanted. Then, he was removed. They won't say why.

If we focus on one man, Ray Epps, we will see what the people who claim provocateurs urged the crowd to storm the Capitol are talking about:
[ Who is Ray Epps? ]

despite the timeline w/Trump asking them to back down

~S~

 

[Faun]

You and I, although we are on opposite sides of the political barricades, are both rational thinkers. If we summoned a demonstration, we would have in mind, I assume, a goal for it.

This is not the case with Mr Trump.

Perhaps he just wanted to bask in the adulation of the crowd. Perhaps he wanted to threaten -- not physically, but with future reprisals in the primaries -- Republicans who voted to certify the results, by showing them how many people believed that the election was stolen.

I disagree. I believe Trump had a plan for that day. What we do know unquestionably is that Trump was trying at least four schemes to overturn the election that day. One was to get a second slate of electors from the swing states he lost submitted to Congress, hoping Pence would pick his electors over Biden's; another involved Pence rejecting Biden electors from swing states and sending them back; another involved Pence throwing out the election and sending it to Congress to vote on the winner; and the last was to have Republicans in Congress object to the swing states Trump lost.

Trump did not need that mob to be in D.C. for any if those. But he hosted an event knowing a lot of his supporters would come out. Knew it would be wild. Riled them up and then summoned them to the Capitol. He had something in mind. They were there for a reason that day that had to play into his plans for flipping the election.

You say that no one provoked Trump supporters to storm the Capitol. Perhaps you are not aware of the evidence that there were indeed people who were not genuine Trump supporters, urging the crowd to storm the Capitol. I am not saying that without these people, it would not have happened. And in any case, we should be smart enough to see through provacateurs.

If we focus on one man, Ray Epps, we will see what the people who claim provocateurs urged the crowd to storm the Capitol are talking about:
[ Who is Ray Epps? ]

There seems to be pretty clear evidence that he was urging the crowd to enter the Capitol. And he was originally on the list of people the FBI wanted. Then, he was removed. They won't say why.

[ Who is Ray Epps? The FBI’s Capitol riot figure who has not been charged ]

The only person I saw who was clearly not a Trump supporter was John Sullivan. And while his motive was to memorialize the events of the day, he did spur on others to commit violence. But he was not the one to provoke Trump supporters to break into the Capitol. He was among people filing in AFTER the Capitol had been breached and idiots followed others inside. The first ones to break in were Proud Boys. They were the ones to start it.

As far Epps, he was the president of the Arizona Oath Keepers, a far right militia. Doesn't sound like an infiltrator. And while he called for people to go into the Capitol, he did that the night before. On January 6th, he did not go in and tried to calm Ryan Samsel, who was looking to fight with police.

Of course, if he was an agent, they wouldn't have put him on that list to start with ... unless the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.

If you go to Snopes to find out about him, you'll learn that he was not prosecuted because he "didn't enter the Capitol". But Stewart Rhodes, the head of the Oathkeepers, didn't enter the Capitol either, and he's been convicted of seditious conspiracy. (This shows us how reliable Snopes is when it comes to political issues.)

I'm not sure what you think Snopes got wrong, but the reason Rhodes was indicted was because he conspired with other Oath Keepers to forcefully prevent the lawful transfer of power on January 6th. The very definition of seditious conspiracy. There is no evidence Epps was involved with that plot.

Of course, I'm sure you're aware that the FBI does penetrate groups which seem to be potential violent actors. What you may not know is that their agents -- who may not be professionals, employees of the FBI, but rather people they've "turned" -- often act as provocateurs, not just observers.

Here's what the leftwing Nation magazine had to say about it:
[ Deploying Informants, the FBI Stings Muslims ]

They did this with the Huttarees: Hutaree - Wikipedia

And they probably did it with the informant they developed in the Ku Klux Klan, in Meridian Mississippi, over fifty years ago.

Now, I have to confess, I didn't lose any sleep over what they did to the Klan, or to the Muslims, or for that matter with the Huttarees. But I probably should have.

So, I don't think it's entirely implausible that there were FBI informants -- who, remember, do not have to be professional agents, just people the FBI has 'turned' -- who went over the line, and became provocateurs.

But as I said, our side needs to understand that the enemy will do this sort of thing, and not fall for it.

That has no bearing on whether or not Epps was connected to the FBI in some regard. There's no evidence he was. An FBI Executive Assistant Director before Congress said she was not aware of anyone on January 6th connected to the FBI encouraging violent and criminal conduct. And Epps himself also denied having any connections to the FBI. Epps is just another in the long line of conspiracies inspired to blunt Sedition Day.

 

[candycorn]

Who is being held without Habeas?

Names please.

PeterPilot

 

[candycorn]

I disagree. I believe Trump had a plan for that day. What we do know unquestionably is that Trump was trying at least four schemes to overturn the election that day. One was to get a second slate of electors from the swing states he lost submitted to Congress, hoping Pence would pick his electors over Biden's; another involved Pence rejecting Biden electors from swing states and sending them back; another involved Pence throwing out the election and sending it to Congress to vote on the winner; and the last was to have Republicans in Congress object to the swing states Trump lost.

Trump did not need that mob to be in D.C. for any if those. But he hosted an event knowing a lot of his supporters would come out. Knew it would be wild. Riled them up and then summoned them to the Capitol. He had something in mind. They were there for a reason that day that had to play into his plans for flipping the election.



The only person I saw who was clearly not a Trump supporter was John Sullivan. And while his motive was to memorialize the events of the day, he did spur on others to commit violence. But he was not the one to provoke Trump supporters to break into the Capitol. He was among people filing in AFTER the Capitol had been breached and idiots followed others inside. The first ones to break in were Proud Boys. They were the ones to start it.

As far Epps, he was the president of the Arizona Oath Keepers, a far right militia. Doesn't sound like an infiltrator. And while he called for people to go into the Capitol, he did that the night before. On January 6th, he did not go in and tried to calm Ryan Samsel, who was looking to fight with police.



I'm not sure what you think Snopes got wrong, but the reason Rhodes was indicted was because he conspired with other Oath Keepers to forcefully prevent the lawful transfer of power on January 6th. The very definition of seditious conspiracy. There is no evidence Epps was involved with that plot.



That has no bearing on whether or not Epps was connected to the FBI in some regard. There's no evidence he was. An FBI Executive Assistant Director before Congress said she was not aware of anyone on January 6th connected to the FBI encouraging violent and criminal conduct. And Epps himself also denied having any connections to the FBI. Epps is just another in the long line of conspiracies inspired to blunt Sedition Day.

He also wanted the Secret Service to not have metal detectors at his rally where he told folks to "fight like hell"

Jan. 6 Hearings: Trump Wanted To Let Armed Rioters Enter His Rally, Aide Says

“They’re not here to hurt me. Let them in,” Trump said on January 6, according to former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson.

www.forbes.com

I still think the scenario was to have Pence incapacitated (i.e. killed), him appoint a new VP who would reject the elector's votes and keep the blob in power.

Pence Refusing to Get in Secret Service Car on Jan. 6 'Chilling': Raskin

The intent, some have theorized, was to drive the former vice president away from the Capitol to prevent him from certifying the 2020 election results.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Faun]

He also wanted the Secret Service to not have metal detectors at his rally where he told folks to "fight like hell"

Jan. 6 Hearings: Trump Wanted To Let Armed Rioters Enter His Rally, Aide Says

“They’re not here to hurt me. Let them in,” Trump said on January 6, according to former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson.

www.forbes.com

I still think the scenario was to have Pence incapacitated (i.e. killed), him appoint a new VP who would reject the elector's votes and keep the blob in power.

Pence Refusing to Get in Secret Service Car on Jan. 6 'Chilling': Raskin

The intent, some have theorized, was to drive the former vice president away from the Capitol to prevent him from certifying the 2020 election results.

www.newsweek.com

Trump couldn't have appointed a new VP. He could have nominated one, but then Congress would have needed to vote on his pick; and they never would have voted for someone who would throw out the election. In all likelihood, had that happened, there would have been no VP until Harris was sworn in.

 

[candycorn]

Trump couldn't have appointed a new VP. He could have nominated one, but then Congress would have needed to vote on his pick; and they never would have voted for someone who would throw out the election. In all likelihood, had that happened, there would have been no VP until Harris was sworn in.

I never claimed it was a good plan. The senate was 50 50 at the time.... I'm unsure; would it take both houses or just the Senate to confirm a VP?

 

[Doug1943]

I disagree. I believe Trump had a plan for that day. What we do know unquestionably is that Trump was trying at least four schemes to overturn the election that day. One was to get a second slate of electors from the swing states he lost submitted to Congress, hoping Pence would pick his electors over Biden's; another involved Pence rejecting Biden electors from swing states and sending them back; another involved Pence throwing out the election and sending it to Congress to vote on the winner; and the last was to have Republicans in Congress object to the swing states Trump lost.

Trump did not need that mob to be in D.C. for any if those. But he hosted an event knowing a lot of his supporters would come out. Knew it would be wild. Riled them up and then summoned them to the Capitol. He had something in mind. They were there for a reason that day that had to play into his plans for flipping the election.



The only person I saw who was clearly not a Trump supporter was John Sullivan. And while his motive was to memorialize the events of the day, he did spur on others to commit violence. But he was not the one to provoke Trump supporters to break into the Capitol. He was among people filing in AFTER the Capitol had been breached and idiots followed others inside. The first ones to break in were Proud Boys. They were the ones to start it.

As far Epps, he was the president of the Arizona Oath Keepers, a far right militia. Doesn't sound like an infiltrator. And while he called for people to go into the Capitol, he did that the night before. On January 6th, he did not go in and tried to calm Ryan Samsel, who was looking to fight with police.



I'm not sure what you think Snopes got wrong, but the reason Rhodes was indicted was because he conspired with other Oath Keepers to forcefully prevent the lawful transfer of power on January 6th. The very definition of seditious conspiracy. There is no evidence Epps was involved with that plot.



That has no bearing on whether or not Epps was connected to the FBI in some regard. There's no evidence he was. An FBI Executive Assistant Director before Congress said she was not aware of anyone on January 6th connected to the FBI encouraging violent and criminal conduct. And Epps himself also denied having any connections to the FBI. Epps is just another in the long line of conspiracies inspired to blunt Sedition Day.

Epps was president of the Arizona Oathkeepers in 2011. Not later. This is not incompatible with his being an FBI informant even then ... on the contrary, you try to get your informants into senior positions, the higher the better. The head of security for the Black Panthers in Chicago was an FBI informant. (Reading about how he was recruited is instructive: [ William O'Neal (informant) - Wikipedia ] You get something on someone, and then offer them a deal: turn informer, or get prosecuted. This is how they work. It's what they were trying to do to that poor eccentric at Ruby Ridge, and it's how they broke the Klan in Meridian, Mississippi.)

Snopes says Ray Epps was not arrested because he did not enter the Capitol -- he just urged others to. (And on at least one occasion, if the video is accurate, people realized he was a wrong'un, and started chanting 'Fed, Fed, Fed!', in response to his provocations.) But then neither did Stewart Rhodes enter the Capitol -- he did other things that gave them the opportunity to indict him. So why let Ray Epps go? And if Ray Epps is innocent, why hasn't he spoken to the patriotic press and put his case to them?

Now, I'm not saying he IS an FBI informant. I don't know that. What I do know is that there is a prima facie case that he is, and it's not unreasonable for patriots to assume that he, and other infiltrators, were urging the crowd on.

If you're familiar with police tactics, you will know that the use of agents provocateurs is one of the ways they work. This technique was recently the subject of public scandal in the United Kingdom, but it's used everywhere:

... undercover agents are not mere fictions on the silver screen or in the pages of spy novels. Their actions have real-world consequences (and often unhappy endings). Just ask the political groups and social movements around the world that have been targeted by agents provocateurs – undercover police and intelligence officers who infiltrate protest movements to manipulate their messaging, instigate violent tactics, and undermine public perception of the group, movement and message. Critically, an agent provocateur – an ‘authorized scoundrel’ in the words of Joseph Conrad – is ‘someone who actually causes offences to be committed which otherwise would not be committed at all’.
Governments in Europe and North America have been accused of employing agents provocateurs to infiltrate and undermine groups pushing for educational and race reforms, environmentalism, labour rights, nuclear disarmament and democratisation. The inherent secrecy of such operations makes it difficult to prove that an agent provocateur has been employed, much less to pinpoint their role within – or impacts on – the movement itself.

[ https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09240519211033429 ]

Now, you can be absolutely certain that many of the American 'militia' groups, including the national organizations, the Oathkeepers and the Three Percenters, had police infiltrators in them -- not just FBI but probably other police agencies as well. And when Trump put out the call to go to Washington, you can be sure that these groups were in the forefront of people who responded ... and that their infiltrators went along with them to Washington.

This does not mean that these infiltrators were instigators of the Capitol breach... maybe they just observed things. But it's not crazy to think that some of them did more than that.

At any rate, the patriot side was stupid to do what it did, whether or not infiltrators were urging them to. It's one of the reasons why we need to have an organization of stewards who can marshall these demonstrations.

As for Mr Trump's plan, if any. I don't know how he thinks, although I know it's not very deeply. But even he must have realized that assaulting the Congress with a violent mob would not get the result he wanted ... so I doubt that this was his conscious plan. If someone shoots himself in the foot while dove hunting, it's reasonable to assume he didn't intentionally do it ... rather than believe he did it because he thought the pellets would bounce off his foot and bring down a bird.

But whatever the role of infiltrators, and whatever Mr Trump thought he was doing, patriots have to draw some lessons from this, and not get caught out doing bonehead stunts like this again.

Let the Left have the monopoly on rioting, violence, burning buildings, killing people they don't like. We need to exercise our 2A rights to the fullest, organize with others and train for worst-case future scenarios, but stay strictly within the law.

 

[Faun]

I never claimed it was a good plan. The senate was 50 50 at the time.... I'm unsure; would it take both houses or just the Senate to confirm a VP?

Both.

 

[Mr Natural]

Send them money.

Via a Trump organization of some sort.

 

[Faun]

Epps was president of the Arizona Oathkeepers in 2011. Not later. This is not incompatible with his being an FBI informant even then ... on the contrary, you try to get your informants into senior positions, the higher the better. The head of security for the Black Panthers in Chicago was an FBI informant. (Reading about how he was recruited is instructive: [ William O'Neal (informant) - Wikipedia ] You get something on someone, and then offer them a deal: turn informer, or get prosecuted. This is how they work. It's what they were trying to do to that poor eccentric at Ruby Ridge, and it's how they broke the Klan in Meridian, Mississippi.)

Snopes says Ray Epps was not arrested because he did not enter the Capitol -- he just urged others to. (And on at least one occasion, if the video is accurate, people realized he was a wrong'un, and started chanting 'Fed, Fed, Fed!', in response to his provocations.) But then neither did Stewart Rhodes enter the Capitol -- he did other things that gave them the opportunity to indict him. So why let Ray Epps go? And if Ray Epps is innocent, why hasn't he spoken to the patriotic press and put his case to them?

Now, I'm not saying he IS an FBI informant. I don't know that. What I do know is that there is a prima facie case that he is, and it's not unreasonable for patriots to assume that he, and other infiltrators, were urging the crowd on.

If you're familiar with police tactics, you will know that the use of agents provocateurs is one of the ways they work. This technique was recently the subject of public scandal in the United Kingdom, but it's used everywhere:

[ https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09240519211033429 ]

Now, you can be absolutely certain that many of the American 'militia' groups, including the national organizations, the Oathkeepers and the Three Percenters, had police infiltrators in them -- not just FBI but probably other police agencies as well. And when Trump put out the call to go to Washington, you can be sure that these groups were in the forefront of people who responded ... and that their infiltrators went along with them to Washington.

This does not mean that these infiltrators were instigators of the Capitol breach... maybe they just observed things. But it's not crazy to think that some of them did more than that.

At any rate, the patriot side was stupid to do what it did, whether or not infiltrators were urging them to. It's one of the reasons why we need to have an organization of stewards who can marshall these demonstrations.

As for Mr Trump's plan, if any. I don't know how he thinks, although I know it's not very deeply. But even he must have realized that assaulting the Congress with a violent mob would not get the result he wanted ... so I doubt that this was his conscious plan. If someone shoots himself in the foot while dove hunting, it's reasonable to assume he didn't intentionally do it ... rather than believe he did it because he thought the pellets would bounce off his foot and bring down a bird.

But whatever the role of infiltrators, and whatever Mr Trump thought he was doing, patriots have to draw some lessons from this, and not get caught out doing bonehead stunts like this again.

Let the Left have the monopoly on rioting, violence, burning buildings, killing people they don't like. We need to exercise our 2A rights to the fullest, organize with others and train for worst-case future scenarios, but stay strictly within the law.

Snopes was correct. Epps was not charged because he neither entered the Capitol nor assaulted police.

And him not being charged is not evidence he was an FBI informant. There actually was an FBI informant and he was charged. And again, Rhodes did not enter the Capitol nor was he charged with going into the Capitol. He was charged with seditious conspiracy for plotting, with others, a scheme to halt the Congressional transfer of power. A crime which evidence shows he did commit.

But I did get a chuckle how you both downplayed Epps' role with the Oath Keepers (to make him appear less rightwingy) AND how you point out the FBI uses Oath Keepers (and other such groups) as informants. As far as Epps sharing information with the "patriotic press," Epps shared that with the J6 Committee but you still don't believe him.

 

[Doug1943]

Snopes was correct. Epps was not charged because he neither entered the Capitol nor assaulted police.

And him not being charged is not evidence he was an FBI informant. There actually was an FBI informant and he was charged. And again, Rhodes did not enter the Capitol nor was he charged with going into the Capitol. He was charged with seditious conspiracy for plotting, with others, a scheme to halt the Congressional transfer of power. A crime which evidence shows he did commit.

But I did get a chuckle how you both downplayed Epps' role with the Oath Keepers (to make him appear less rightwingy) AND how you point out the FBI uses Oath Keepers (and other such groups) as informants. As far as Epps sharing information with the "patriotic press," Epps shared that with the J6 Committee but you still don't believe him.

Well, if you think I noted his short leadership of the Oathkeepers to make him appear "less rightwingy", you are mistaken. That wouldn't be a virtue in my book.

I'm very "rightwingy", and I absolutely support the Oathkeepers as individuals -- they definitely had the right idea -- I even had an association with them, by post since I don't live where they had groups. Their problem was inadequate leadership -- one-man rule, fatal in political projects like they were engaged in.

And I'm now a big partisan of the Yavapai Community Defense Team -- who are former Oathkeepers, but smarter than the Oathkeeper leadership. [YCPT.org]

So, let me repeat: I don't know that Epps was an FBI informant. But I do know that, given the circumstances as we have learned about them so far, it's not unreasonable to believe he was. For example, he was vociferously urging people to attack the Capitol ... but didn't go in himself. Hmmmm... wonder why?

Another possibility is that he became an informant after the event, to duck serious charges against him. This is also a police tactic and is very common in such situations.

Read about almost any of the crazy militia groups which get popped for planning terrorist acts, and you'll find that one or more of the genuine members gets turned.

Often these are people with previous criminal convictions, whose political committment is shallow at best. (Happens to your side too, of course. See Ronald Beaty, here:[ Venceremos (political organization) - Wikipedia ] )

However, you may be right. Here's a man who was encouraging the crowd to storm the Capitol, caught on video, a former Oathkeeper ... who for some strange reason didn't follow the people he incited into the building. Maybe the prosecutors felt merciful and decided to reward him for his last-minute change of heart.

 

[Faun]

Well, if you think I noted his short leadership of the Oathkeepers to make him appear "less rightwingy", you are mistaken. That wouldn't be a virtue in my book.

I'm very "rightwingy", and I absolutely support the Oathkeepers as individuals -- they definitely had the right idea -- I even had an association with them, by post since I don't live where they had groups. Their problem was inadequate leadership -- one-man rule, fatal in political projects like they were engaged in.

And I'm now a big partisan of the Yavapai Community Defense Team -- who are former Oathkeepers, but smarter than the Oathkeeper leadership. [YCPT.org]

So, let me repeat: I don't know that Epps was an FBI informant. But I do know that, given the circumstances as we have learned about them so far, it's not unreasonable to believe he was. For example, he was vociferously urging people to attack the Capitol ... but didn't go in himself. Hmmmm... wonder why?

Another possibility is that he became an informant after the event, to duck serious charges against him. This is also a police tactic and is very common in such situations.

Read about almost any of the crazy militia groups which get popped for planning terrorist acts, and you'll find that one or more of the genuine members gets turned.

Often these are people with previous criminal convictions, whose political committment is shallow at best. (Happens to your side too, of course. See Ronald Beaty, here:[ Venceremos (political organization) - Wikipedia ] )

However, you may be right. Here's a man who was encouraging the crowd to storm the Capitol, caught on video, a former Oathkeeper ... who for some strange reason didn't follow the people he incited into the building. Maybe the prosecutors felt merciful and decided to reward him for his last-minute change of heart.

I can only guess Epps didn't go into the Capitol on the 6th because he saw people violently fighting with police to break in; whereas on the 5th, he was promoting going into the Capitol peacefully.

 

[g5000]

You and I, although we are on opposite sides of the political barricades, are both rational thinkers. If we summoned a demonstration, we would have in mind, I assume, a goal for it.

This is not the case with Mr Trump.

Perhaps he just wanted to bask in the adulation of the crowd. Perhaps he wanted to threaten -- not physically, but with future reprisals in the primaries -- Republicans who voted to certify the results, by showing them how many people believed that the election was stolen.

You say that no one provoked Trump supporters to storm the Capitol. Perhaps you are not aware of the evidence that there were indeed people who were not genuine Trump supporters, urging the crowd to storm the Capitol. I am not saying that without these people, it would not have happened. And in any case, we should be smart enough to see through provacateurs.

If we focus on one man, Ray Epps, we will see what the people who claim provocateurs urged the crowd to storm the Capitol are talking about:
[ Who is Ray Epps? ]

There seems to be pretty clear evidence that he was urging the crowd to enter the Capitol. And he was originally on the list of people the FBI wanted. Then, he was removed. They won't say why.

'

[ Who is Ray Epps? The FBI’s Capitol riot figure who has not been charged ]

Of course, if he was an agent, they wouldn't have put him on that list to start with ... unless the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.

If you go to Snopes to find out about him, you'll learn that he was not prosecuted because he "didn't enter the Capitol". But Stewart Rhodes, the head of the Oathkeepers, didn't enter the Capitol either, and he's been convicted of seditious conspiracy. (This shows us how reliable Snopes is when it comes to political issues.)

Of course, I'm sure you're aware that the FBI does penetrate groups which seem to be potential violent actors. What you may not know is that their agents -- who may not be professionals, employees of the FBI, but rather people they've "turned" -- often act as provocateurs, not just observers.

This seems to be the case with various Muslim groups they have penetrated, where they seem to have come very close to, even to have crossed, the line of 'entrapment'.

Here's what the leftwing Nation magazine had to say about it:
[ Deploying Informants, the FBI Stings Muslims ]

They did this with the Huttarees: Hutaree - Wikipedia

And they probably did it with the informant they developed in the Ku Klux Klan, in Meridian Mississippi, over fifty years ago.

Now, I have to confess, I didn't lose any sleep over what they did to the Klan, or to the Muslims, or for that matter with the Huttarees. But I probably should have.

So, I don't think it's entirely implausible that there were FBI informants -- who, remember, do not have to be professional agents, just people the FBI has 'turned' -- who went over the line, and became provocateurs.

But as I said, our side needs to understand that the enemy will do this sort of thing, and not fall for it.

Ashli Babbitt. Antifa or FBI?

Jeremy Bertino. Antifa or BLM?

Joshua Pruitt. Antifa or FBI?

Enrique Tarrio. Antifa or FBI?

Dominic Pezzola. Antifa or FBI?

Ethan Nordean. Antifa or FBI?

Joseph Biggs. Antifa or FBI?

Zachary Rehl. Antifa or FBI?

John Charles Stewart. Antifa or FBI?

Roseanne Boyland. Antifa or FBI?


All these people: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases

Antifa or FBI?

 

[Doug1943]

I can only guess Epps didn't go into the Capitol on the 6th because he saw people violently fighting with police to break in; whereas on the 5th, he was promoting going into the Capitol peacefully.

Okay, that's a hypothesis. He wanted a non-violent sit in, unlike the still-active Oathkeepers there that day. It would be interesting to hear what he himself has to say. His silence is a bit surprising, since he's now a pariah among the people he used to hang out with.

 

[Doug1943]

Ashli Babbitt. Antifa or FBI?

Jeremy Bertino. Antifa or BLM?

Joshua Pruitt. Antifa or FBI?

Enrique Tarrio. Antifa or FBI?

Dominic Pezzola. Antifa or FBI?

Ethan Nordean. Antifa or FBI?

Joseph Biggs. Antifa or FBI?

Zachary Rehl. Antifa or FBI?

John Charles Stewart. Antifa or FBI?

Roseanne Boyland. Antifa or FBI?


All these people: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases

Antifa or FBI?

What is your reason for believing that they are either? Enrique Tarrio, yes, there is reason to think he might be a government informant (again). [Enrique Tarrio - Wikipedia] But the others?

 

[Faun]

Okay, that's a hypothesis. He wanted a non-violent sit in, unlike the still-active Oathkeepers there that day. It would be interesting to hear what he himself has to say. His silence is a bit surprising, since he's now a pariah among the people he used to hang out with.

He spoke with the J6 Committee and I'm pretty sure they posted his testimony online.

 

[g5000]

What is your reason for believing that they are either? Enrique Tarrio, yes, there is reason to think he might be a government informant (again). [Enrique Tarrio - Wikipedia] But the others?

So all those thousands of rioters who invaded the Capitol, brutalized the police, and wreaked havoc are so weak-minded they were able to be led around by Ray Epps?

"Throw your shit on this wall, kids!"

 

[Doug1943]

He spoke with the J6 Committee and I'm pretty sure they posted his testimony online.

Yes, I've just read it. He sounds authentic. So, unless there is information I have not seen, I now think he's genuine, and not an FBI agent.
For anyone who wants to read it, it's here:
Select January 6th Committee Final Report and Supporting Materials Collection 6th Committee Final Report and Supporting Materials Collection/Supporting Materials - Transcribed Interviews and Depositions

Scroll down to:
CTRL0000038864 - Transcribed Interview of Ray Epps, (January 21, 2022)
It's in the form of a PDF file which you can download.