Sunday School is indoctrination

[aaronleland]

I was one of the first to take "cyber schooling" in Pennsylvania. The internet was a new thing, and I was an autistic kid with computer experience. In my case it worked out great. In other cases it may not.

 

[ding]

"Now the position would be quite hopeless but for this. There is one thing, and only one, in the whole universe which we know more about than we could learn from external observation. That one thing is Man. We do not merely observe men, we are men. In this case we have, so to speak, inside information; we are in the know. And because of that, we know that men find themselves under a moral law, which they did not make, and cannot quite forget even when they try, and which they know they ought to obey. Notice the following point. Anyone studying Man from the outside as we study electricity or cabbages, not knowing our language and consequently not able to get any inside knowledge from us, but merely observing what we did, would never get the slightest evidence that we had this moral law. How could he? for his observations would only show what we did, and the moral law is about what we ought to do. In the same way, if there were anything above or behind the observed facts in the case of stones or the weather, we, by studying them from outside, could never hope to discover it.

The position of the question, then, is like this. We want to know whether the universe simply happens to be what it is for no reason or whether there is a power behind it that makes it what it is. Since that power, if it exists, would be not one of the observed facts but a reality which makes them, no mere observation of the facts can find it. There is only one case in which we can know whether there is anything more, namely our own case. And in that one case we find there is. Or put it the other way round. If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe—no more than the architect of a house could actually be a wall or staircase or fireplace in that house. The only way in which we could expect it to show itself would be inside ourselves as an influence or a command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. And that is just what we do find inside ourselves. Surely this ought to arouse our suspicions?" C.S. Lewis, former atheist

 

[ding]

So the moral law is about what we ought to do, not what we actually do. But you can know with 100% certainty that a moral law does exist because when we violate it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong, we rationalize that we didn't violate it. It would be just as easy for us to say, damn your invisible law of common decency, I don't follow it. But we don't.

Therefore, anyone who argues that the law is not written into our hearts must contend with the fact that virtue is the ultimate organizing principle. How do we know? Because two loving people will always have a better relationship than two hateful people, two thankful people will always have a better relationship than two ungrateful people, two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people and so on and so on. Not just some of the time but all of the time.

So it does appear that there are successful behaviors which naturally lead to success and that there are failed behaviors which naturally lead to failure. And these behaviors are universal in nature. No matter where you go or who you are or what you believe, the outcomes of successful and failed behaviors are the same everywhere.

 

[Witchit]

"... the best education out there ...".

Fokk me running !! (old Irish phrase by Irish prostitutes).

Dude, you're getting tiresome. I'd put our children's schools up against any public school out there. Hell our oldest daughters debate public school teams....it's ugly watching them destroy them because the poor kids are not being educated properly

That's anecdotal and local. Next!

**also me giving you the presumption of honesty which is a long shot, but I digress.**

And your OP isn't anecdotal?

Google is our friend.

When I'm off work, I'll Google how home schooled children such as the Austin bomber do with standardized testing.

‘Survivor’ Bloggers Join Forces to Reveal Christian Fundamentalist Abuses

Why are you connecting homeschooling to the Austin bomber.
You mention google, so I used it.
Do Homeschool Kids Really Rate Better on Standardized Tests?
That article doesn't even touch on Sunday school. I don't think anyone will disagree that there are issues with certain christian groups and abuse, but no religion is free of those problems.

PFLUGERVILLE, Texas—Mark Anthony Conditt, the man authorities say carried out a string of bombing attacks in Austin, was a home-schooled 23-year-old who had dropped out of college and lived in a fast-growing bedroom community north of Austin.

Austin Bombing Suspect: Home-Schooled College Dropout Known for Dry Wit

 

[Witchit]

So the moral law is about what we ought to do, not what we actually do. But you can know with 100% certainty that a moral law does exist because when we violate it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong, we rationalize that we didn't violate it. It would be just as easy for us to say, damn your invisible law of common decency, I don't follow it. But we don't.

Therefore, anyone who argues that the law is not written into our hearts must contend with the fact that virtue is the ultimate organizing principle. How do we know? Because two loving people will always have a better relationship than two hateful people, two thankful people will always have a better relationship than two ungrateful people, two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people and so on and so on. Not just some of the time but all of the time.

So it does appear that there are successful behaviors which naturally lead to success and that there are failed behaviors which naturally lead to failure. And these behaviors are universal in nature. No matter where you go or who you are or what you believe, the outcomes of successful and failed behaviors are the same everywhere.

I had a tough time deciding between 'informative' and 'winner.' Thank you. Very thoughtful post.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't believe I'm crime-free because Sunday school. I believe I'm crime-free because even as I am an agnostic at the very least, I have a very strong moral compass which bears no resemblance to the bulk of the evangelical people of faith I see today, because their faith bears no resemblance to the New Testament.

Have you considered that perhaps Sunday School, Parochial School, and religion in general is (or should be) less about teaching morals than it is about encouragement and direction about seeking and finding God?

 

[Minstrel]

Dude, you're getting tiresome. I'd put our children's schools up against any public school out there. Hell our oldest daughters debate public school teams....it's ugly watching them destroy them because the poor kids are not being educated properly

That's anecdotal and local. Next!

**also me giving you the presumption of honesty which is a long shot, but I digress.**

And your OP isn't anecdotal?

Google is our friend.

When I'm off work, I'll Google how home schooled children such as the Austin bomber do with standardized testing.

‘Survivor’ Bloggers Join Forces to Reveal Christian Fundamentalist Abuses

Why are you connecting homeschooling to the Austin bomber.
You mention google, so I used it.
Do Homeschool Kids Really Rate Better on Standardized Tests?
That article doesn't even touch on Sunday school. I don't think anyone will disagree that there are issues with certain christian groups and abuse, but no religion is free of those problems.

PFLUGERVILLE, Texas—Mark Anthony Conditt, the man authorities say carried out a string of bombing attacks in Austin, was a home-schooled 23-year-old who had dropped out of college and lived in a fast-growing bedroom community north of Austin.

Austin Bombing Suspect: Home-Schooled College Dropout Known for Dry Wit

I know that the Austin bomber was home schooled, I'm asking why you are connecting the two. Should I connect public schooling to the school shooters who attended public school? No, because that makes no sense.

 

[TheOldSchool]

I have a Facebook friend that I was friends with at church back when my daughter was born, well over thirty years ago. I commented on my page the same thing I said here, which was "And another thing that irks my tater. Getting all pissy and claiming kids are being indoctrinated and used.

Well what the actual fuck do you think Sunday School is about!?"

It actually was quite kind of her to respond, since I did drop the F-bomb and she is a Christian Woman.

*caps on purpose*

At any rate, this was her response, and mine is the rest of the OP.

"When most kids in this country were "indoctrinated" in Sunday School there was a lot less crime....."

Crime has been up and down since this country was founded. Sunday school has almost been a constant, just as it remains for a portion of the population today. I don't have statistics, but speaking from my own experience and people I am acquainted with, quite a few kids went through hell in the name of Jesus. Spousal abuse, child molestation - it's almost like people gave themselves free rein to terrorize family members because either God said they could, or they twisted the Bible to allow it, or they didn't even need to twist it. Spare the rod means getting beaten. People can pretty it up all they want, but that's what was happening. Shit you can never forget, no matter how hard you try and how much time goes by.

I don't believe I'm crime-free because Sunday school. I believe I'm crime-free because even as I am an agnostic at the very least, I have a very strong moral compass which bears no resemblance to the bulk of the evangelical people of faith I see today, because their faith bears no resemblance to the New Testament.

**for those of you wondering why I said "God said" - ever heard of "tongues and interpretation?"**

If people weren't told about religion until age 15 or so, there wouldn't be any

 

[Witchit]

I was one of the first to take "cyber schooling" in Pennsylvania. The internet was a new thing, and I was an autistic kid with computer experience. In my case it worked out great. In other cases it may not.

That's a wholly different reason than why most kids are home schooled. I'm glad you had that option. One of my nephews as well as my grandson are on the spectrum, but they are managing school thus far. The nephew graduated, the grandson is ten.

 

[Meriweather]

If people weren't told about religion until age 15 or so, there wouldn't be any

Hmm. Both my grandparents were baptized after I was.

 

[TheOldSchool]

If people weren't told about religion until age 15 or so, there wouldn't be any

Hmm. Both my grandparents were baptized after I was.

Likely by folks who were trained into it from birth

 

[Meriweather]

Likely by folks who were trained into it from birth

No. Each of their three children, well after they left home, decided to join three different Christian denominations. My grandparents became interested in religion...and joined a fourth denomination.

No big deal, just noting that in my family, half were well over the age of fifteen before they began studying religion.

 

[Harry Dresden]

dam no wonder you are gay....

What is your excuse?

HEY!.....dont make me come over there Aaron....its been a while since i turned someone into a frog with big lips....

Aaron has change for 18 dollar bills 2 different ways -- 9's and 6's.

Aaron is a good guy.....and he is into Comics....anyone into the ancient texts is ok by me...

Did you hear that Phil Coulson and Nick Fury will be in Captain Marvel?

hey im pissed that in the REAL Captain Marvel movie they have to call him Shazam,because Marvel wont let them use the name...

 

[TheOldSchool]

Each of their three children, well after they left home, decided to join three different Christian denominations. My grandparents became interested in religion...and joined a fourth denomination.

Which was the correct one that we should all live by?

 

[Windparadox]

`
Despite porn stars and Playboy models, white evangelicals aren’t rejecting Trump. This is why. -

 

[aaronleland]

What is your excuse?

HEY!.....dont make me come over there Aaron....its been a while since i turned someone into a frog with big lips....

Aaron has change for 18 dollar bills 2 different ways -- 9's and 6's.

Aaron is a good guy.....and he is into Comics....anyone into the ancient texts is ok by me...

Did you hear that Phil Coulson and Nick Fury will be in Captain Marvel?

hey im pissed that in the REAL Captain Marvel movie they have to call him Shazam,because Marvel wont let them use the name...

Maybe it's just a rumor, but i've heard that Marvel can't refer to Quicksilver or the Scarlet Witch as mutants. The word is trademarked by Fox.

 

[Meriweather]

Which was the correct one that we should all live by?

The one which draws each individual closer to God.

 

[yiostheoy]

Likely by folks who were trained into it from birth

No. Each of their three children, well after they left home, decided to join three different Christian denominations. My grandparents became interested in religion...and joined a fourth denomination.

No big deal, just noting that in my family, half were well over the age of fifteen before they began studying religion.

Opiate of the masses.

 

[yiostheoy]

I was one of the first to take "cyber schooling" in Pennsylvania. The internet was a new thing, and I was an autistic kid with computer experience. In my case it worked out great. In other cases it may not.

That's a wholly different reason than why most kids are home schooled. I'm glad you had that option. One of my nephews as well as my grandson are on the spectrum, but they are managing school thus far. The nephew graduated, the grandson is ten.

The only good reason for home schooling your kids is that you cannot afford a private school to put them into.

 

[Meriweather]

Opiate of the masses.

Ah, I see this old weak-minded, cliche is still being used by the...umm, weak-minded searching for an insult. There are strong answers for the existence of God, particularly when based in logic and philosophy. The explorers among us are not content with just learning about our existence in the physical realm--but pursue that existence in the spiritual realm as well. The offer to seek and search for God is only for the daring, the explorer, the adventurer. Take up the quest, become an explorer not a settler whose sole great adventure into religion is to decline to seek God.

Become the Man in the Arena, not a part of the crowd of critics on the outside looking in.