Study Indicates HOMOSEXUAL ACTS Shorten Lifespan

[nakedemperor]

And to get back on topic, let's cut to the chase about this whole homosexual marriage issue. The bottom line is money - period. Homosexuals want access to employer sponsored health care programs so that they have another avenue to pay for AIDS treatment. They want access to government benefits currently limited to heterosexual married couples. They want the benefit of reduced taxes from a joint tax return for a married couple. THAT'S what this is all about. They can spout about rights and equality all they want, but the bottom line is money.

Financial equality is still equality. What if we told black people that we thought their getting married was deviant and told them we weren't going to give them tax benefits, etc. for being married couples. Would they just roll over and say, 'Well, at least we have our equal rights'.

Its only about the money. Well, lot's of things are 'only about the money' in this day and age, and money is a pretty darn big part of life these days.

Moreover, its not just about the money. You language proves just how ignorant and disrespectful you can be in terms of gay rights. Gays want their unions to be socially and publicly recognized, JUST as hetero relationships are. This is only symbolic, yadda yadda, you might say. Well, in a stable, loving, caring relationship, having some level of acceptance from the public and from the government is a blessing and a boon, and has NOTHING to do with the monitary business. Way to reduce the benefits of a state-recognized union to greed.

 

[nakedemperor]

So your supposition that those living along Old Man River are somehow more cosmopolitan and better educated was nothing more than a shot in the dark. And you missed by a mile.

Where did he say 'better educated'? And what do you mean by 'cosmopolitan'?

 

[OCA]

No problem with that, but the bible isn't a perfect barometer of moral absolutes, and the bible is the impetus for many peoples' inabilities to accept homosexuality. Then again, the bible also condones slavery (as long as you treat your slaves well, and release them after 7 years, or something). Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not put it in a person's butt...? You're right, being able to fall romantically in love with someone of the same sex is OBVIOUSLY a hardline moral absolute.

You mistake romantic love for degenerate lust.

 

[OCA]

Is my using one part of the bible to make my point any worse then you using one part of the Bible to judge homosexuals?

Which testament is the homosexuality as sin thing in anyway? Also does the bible have an opinion on lesbians?

Homosexuality is mentioned as an abomination in they eyes of god many times but most prominently in the book of Romans. A practicing queer can still get to heaven but must not engage in homosexuality or lust after anyone in his heart homosexually or heterosexually(i'm as guilty as sin for undressing chicks and banging them with my eyes, the Greek in me) No HLCP can get into heaven without repenting and changing their ways, simple as that.

 

[OCA]

a visit to Reno, you crack me up. Well, I give you credit for consistency.

Pale Rider. OK, I see you point. You're saying that the word homophobic itself seems to have built in prejudice, kind of like Bush's use of "death tax" for the inheritance tax. To me, and to many other people, it's just a descriptor, though--maybe you're putting ideas into our heads that aren't there? I said several times that the "mild" definition proposed on the religious tolerance website was how I intended to use the word, and others here agreed that it's frequently used that way.

Manu, if it's not a choice then maybe it's not a choice: the person simply realizes that he/she is sexually attracted to people of the same sex, in the same way those of who are straight experience our first inklings of attraction to the opposite sex. I don't know for sure--I'm not gay--but that's how my gay friends describe it.

I have repeatedly seen the need to love one's family members overcome dislike-of-homosexuality (are you happy with that phrase, PaleRider?) I actually posted the question because there was a gay relative of my wife's at Thanksgiving--my wife's conservative parents accepted him just fine--and because last evening I talked with a couple who were strict Catholics, both of whose sons have come out as gay--the couple chose to revise their beliefs rather than reject their sons. I believe there is a one-way street here, as gay people feel more comfortable out of the closet, leading to greater acceptance of gay people in general--just as Dick Cheney can't openly criticize homosexuality any more, as it would mean condemning a daughter he loves.

OCA, if it was truly a choice that could go either way, then the rational person would want to try it both ways before deciding which was better, no? You didn't answer my question--how DID you decide?

Merlin, as for the difference between civil union and civil marriage: the problem is that the word marriage is used in current law. So to offer marriage to some couples but not to others is to discriminate. So either gov't can get out of the business of marriage, and offer everyone a civil union, or it ought to offer all couples marriage. That was the essence of the Mass. Supreme Court's ruling, which was quite eloquent and which I recommend reading.

Mariner.

I didn't decide, I follow the correct path of nature and don't try to swim upstream. There is only 1 choice, and that is the conscious choice the HLCP's make.

There is not going to be an accepotance of the HLCP's, are you not paying attention to the voting?

 

[5stringJeff]

No HLCP can get into heaven without repenting and changing their ways, simple as that.

[religion mode]

Nobody, period, can get into heaven without repentance.

[/religion mode]

 

[OCA]

[religion mode]

Nobody, period, can get into heaven without repentance.

[/religion mode]

Absolutely true, but hence the topic I was speaking to the HLCP's amongst us.

 

[nakedemperor]

You mistake romantic love for degenerate lust.

If I were in your position, you being not gay, and hence have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about, I'd be careful about positing such inane assumptions as this. My neighbors at home are gay. They have been partners for 30 years now. They have a son who graduated last year from Brown (I met him my first year here). They are very much in love. Their son grew up in a stable, LOVING relationship, and is probably one of the better socially adjusted people I've ever met.

Degenerate lust? Right.

 

[musicman]

Financial equality is still equality. What if we told black people that we thought their getting married was deviant and told them we weren't going to give them tax benefits, etc. for being married couples. Would they just roll over and say, 'Well, at least we have our equal rights'.

.

.

In the homosexual struggle for "equality", have you noticed how conspicuous the black voter is by his absence? That's because he has struggled against discrimination for what he IS. Homosexuals hoped to recruit him in their struggle against discrimination for what they DO. He's not having any of it, because he resents the hell out of it. I don't blame him.

 

[Mariner]

what it comes down to for you, it seems, is an inability to see homosexuals couples' feelings for one another as love, or their attraction to one another as similar to straight couples' attraction to one another. You can only do this because you refuse to believe what they actually say, or pay attention to how so many of them act--seeking stable partnerships, contributing to the community, paying taxes, raising children. That's the norm among the gay couples I know. Far from destroying the community through some perversion, they are contributing to it--immensely.

When you refuse to believe what they say, you immediately treat them as "lesser" and with disrespect, in my opinion. When you say, "It's all about money," that's more disrespect.

OCA--you're avoiding my question: if homosexuality is a choice, how did you personally go about choosing? If you chose by following your natural feelings of attraction to women and repulsion at the idea of sex with men, then why can't you imagine that some men have the opposite experience--and imagine how awful it would be for you if some moralistic people labelled your preference a "perversion"? If you actually take a moment to listen to gay people, that's exactly what they describe.

Red/blue/purple and the rivers--you could be right, in regard to the Mississippi, Merlin, but you have to admit how isolated the really red areas are from both commerce and ethnic diversity.

Mariner.

 

[nakedemperor]

In the homosexual struggle for "equality", have you noticed how conspicuous the black voter is by his absence? That's because he has struggled against discrimination for what he IS. Homosexuals hoped to recruit him in their struggle against discrimination for what they DO. He's not having any of it, because he resents the hell out of it. I don't blame him.

So you're saying there are people who "do" homosexual stuff and people who "don't do" homosexual stuff? Come on. What homosexuals do is a function of what they are, not the other way around. I don't purport to know why some people are physically attracted to men and some to women. I'm a bisexual, and I sure as shit don't know *why* I am what I am. But I never made a "decision" to be attracted to men. Why on earth would I do that? To subject myself to ridicule and physical abuse? If its genetic or psychological, I don't know, and frankly its a moot point.

And to generalize the way you are doing is kind of bizarre. The leader of the Gay-Straight Alliance chapter here is a black man. His absense is SHOCKING.

 

[musicman]

So you're saying there are people who "do" homosexual stuff and people who "don't do" homosexual stuff? Come on. What homosexuals do is a function of what they are, not the other way around. I don't purport to know why some people are physically attracted to men and some to women. I'm a bisexual, and I sure as shit don't know *why* I am what I am. But I never made a "decision" to be attracted to men. Why on earth would I do that? To subject myself to ridicule and physical abuse? If its genetic or psychological, I don't know, and frankly its a moot point.

And to generalize the way you are doing is kind of bizarre. The leader of the Gay-Straight Alliance chapter here is a black man. His absense is SHOCKING.

Come on, man. Just what point did you hope to make here - that there are black homosexuals? Thank you for that fast-breaking news flash, nakedemporer. Back to you, Dan....

You know perfectly well what I'm saying. Blacks tend to vote as a bloc, and - as a bloc - they have resoundingly rejected the overtures of homosexual activists, who hoped to draw comparisons between the "gay rights struggle" and racial discrimination. African-Americans know that their skin is black. No leap of faith is required - no elaborate scientific studies - no social engineering. All they have to do is look in the mirror. They were born with black skin, and they have struggled to achieve equality in America because of that one fact. They have been discriminated against because of what they ARE. And, as a bloc, they have demonstrated that they resent having their struggle trivialized. I don't blame them.

Can you say - with THAT degree of certainty - that homosexuals are discriminated against because of what they are? No, you can't - and you admit as much in your post ("If it's genetic or psychological, I don't know..."). It requires leaps of faith, elaborate scientific studies, and social engineering - and still you've proven nothing.

African-Americans don't have that problem.

 

[OCA]

If I were in your position, you being not gay, and hence have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about, I'd be careful about positing such inane assumptions as this. My neighbors at home are gay. They have been partners for 30 years now. They have a son who graduated last year from Brown (I met him my first year here). They are very much in love. Their son grew up in a stable, LOVING relationship, and is probably one of the better socially adjusted people I've ever met.

Degenerate lust? Right.

If you were in my position? Eat shit. What the fuck do I have to be careful for? You? Shit you can't even decide between hairpie and balls across the nose. Gay people cannot have a son or a daughter, physically impossible unless they go the unnatural way which really is the only way since they are not meant to be together in the manner that is meant to raise a family. Love, no no.....lust and selfishness. I wonder how tormented the child is when a normal little boy or girl asks "why do you have two mommies or why do you have two daddies?" The thought of raising a child in a HLCP is nothing more than a political act of selfishness.

 

[OCA]

what it comes down to for you, it seems, is an inability to see homosexuals couples' feelings for one another as love, or their attraction to one another as similar to straight couples' attraction to one another. You can only do this because you refuse to believe what they actually say, or pay attention to how so many of them act--seeking stable partnerships, contributing to the community, paying taxes, raising children. That's the norm among the gay couples I know. Far from destroying the community through some perversion, they are contributing to it--immensely.

When you refuse to believe what they say, you immediately treat them as "lesser" and with disrespect, in my opinion. When you say, "It's all about money," that's more disrespect.

OCA--you're avoiding my question: if homosexuality is a choice, how did you personally go about choosing? If you chose by following your natural feelings of attraction to women and repulsion at the idea of sex with men, then why can't you imagine that some men have the opposite experience--and imagine how awful it would be for you if some moralistic people labelled your preference a "perversion"? If you actually take a moment to listen to gay people, that's exactly what they describe.

Red/blue/purple and the rivers--you could be right, in regard to the Mississippi, Merlin, but you have to admit how isolated the really red areas are from both commerce and ethnic diversity.

Mariner.

No avoidance of your question sparky you just don't like the answer. NONE OF US choose attraction to the opposite sex its as normal as the sun rising in the east or the Mississippi River flowing south, ONLY HLCP's make a choice whether consciously or subconsciously to live the dangerous lifestyle they do, they can however with help decide to also get out of that dangerous lifestyle at anytime.

 

['ol Perfessor]

No one in the homo lobby wants to get along. they want to get over. The truth is that the condition is treatable, ( and not by death like in Islam),but the treatment gets no pub due to the MSM agenda.

 

[Merlin1047]

what it comes down to for you, it seems, is an inability to see homosexuals couples' feelings for one another as love, or their attraction to one another as similar to straight couples' attraction to one another. You can only do this because you refuse to believe what they actually say, or pay attention to how so many of them act--seeking stable partnerships, contributing to the community, paying taxes, raising children. That's the norm among the gay couples I know. Far from destroying the community through some perversion, they are contributing to it--immensely.

I see that now we're into do-it-yourself psychoanalysis. Wrong - I have no "inability to see homosexuals couples' feelings for one another as love". I understand that implicitly. What you don't understand is that this doesn't change the fact that homosexual love is still a perversion. It is unnatural and deviant. It is NOT something which I feel should be supported and encouraged by giving it legitimate status. So while you try to quantify my attitudes as being emotionally and intellectually deficient, it is in fact YOU who are unable to take an objective and critical view of homosexual relationships.

And as far as homosexual couples raising children - that is something which I cannot countenance. An impressionable child should never be allowed to be raised under such influences.

When you refuse to believe what they say, you immediately treat them as "lesser" and with disrespect, in my opinion. When you say, "It's all about money," that's more disrespect.

More bullshit. That's not disrespect, that's calling it like I see it based on what I have read and heard. Only leftists equate honesty with disrespect. Perhaps that's because you guys don't have much tolerance for the truth.

Red/blue/purple and the rivers--you could be right, in regard to the Mississippi, Merlin, but you have to admit how isolated the really red areas are from both commerce and ethnic diversity.

I have to admit no such thing. In your rush to denigrate conservative voters you characterize cities like Dallas-Ft. Worth, Houston, New Orleans, Huntsville, Atlanta, Savannah, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, Birmingham, Charlotte, Mobile, Tallahassee, Pensacola etc etc etc as flaccid backwaters where straw-chewing hicks languish around collecting welfare checks. I don't know where you're from, but apparently they don't teach much geography there. This argument was bankrupt from the very beginning. If you were a bit less blinded by your unwarranted assumptions you could see that. I suggest you drop this particular angle before you throw into the crapper the little bit of credibilty you have remaining.

 

[OCA]

[QUOTE='ol Perfessor]No one in the homo lobby wants to get along. they want to get over. The truth is that the condition is treatable, ( and not by death like in Islam),but the treatment gets no pub due to the MSM agenda.[/QUOTE]

Perfessor you are 110% correct, its the dirty little secret the HLCP leadership doesn't want out.

 

[Mariner]

officially removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses and treatable conditions a long time ago. There have been plenty of studies showing that "treatment" is ineffective, and at present only a subset of fundamentalist Christian counselors even try. The other several million therapists in the U.S. would disagree wtih you.

Mariner.

 

[007]

RECOVERY, CHANGE & HOMOSEXUALITY
WHAT THE EXPERTS HAVE TO SAY

by Yvette Cantu

Family Research Council


People leaving the homosexual lifestyle to recover their heterosexual identities have received considerable media attention in the past several months. Although extensive public discussion regarding this issue is a relatively new phenomenon, psychiatrists and psychologists have been helping people overcome same-sex attractions for decades. Medical doctors and mental health professionals agree that men and women struggling with homosexuality can, and do, change.


The 1973 decision by the American Psychiatric Association to delete homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (the APA’s official list of disorders) was "not a conclusion based on an approximation of the scientific truth as dictated by reason, but was instead an action demanded by the ideological temper of the times," according to Dr. Ronald Bayer in Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnosis (New York: Basic Books, 1981, pp. 3-4). A 1977 survey conducted by the journal Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality reported that 69 percent of the 10,000 psychiatrists polled considered homosexuality a pathological adaptation.


For over 70 years, prominent medical and mental health professionals have been helping people who struggle with homosexuality to lose their same-sex attractions and recover heterosexual identities. Here are statements from just a few of them:


* "There is at present sufficient evidence that in a majority of cases homosexuality can be successfully treated by psychoanalysis."


Charles W. Socarides, M.D., Homosexuality (New York: Jason Aronson, 1978), p. 3. Positions held include clinical professor of psychiatry at Albert Einstein College of Medicine. In 1995, he received the Distinguished Professor Award from the Association of Psychoanalytic Psychologists, British Health Service. He is the current president of National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (N.A.R.T.H.).


* Masters and Johnson reported a 71.6 percent success rate for patients leaving homosexuality after a follow-up of six years.


William H. Masters and Virginia E. Johnson, Homosexuality in Perspective (Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1979), pp. 402 and 408. William H. Masters obtained his M.D. from the University of Rochester. Positions held: professor of clinical obstetrics and gynecology for the School of Medicine of Washington University; director of the Reproductive Biological Research Foundation; and co-director and chairman of the board of the Masters and Johnson Institute. Virginia E. Johnson obtained her M.D. from the University of Missouri. Positions held: research director of the Reproductive Biological Research Foundation and co-director of the Masters and Johnson Institute.


* "The rate of recovery among the homosexuals treated in these groups is 49 percent."


Dr. Toby Bieber, "Group Therapy with Homosexuals," Comprehensive Group Psychotherapy, Harold I. Kaplan and Benjamin J. Saddock, eds. (Baltimore: The Williams and Wilkins Company, 1971), p. 532. Formerly a faculty member of New York Medical College, she is now on the group-therapy faculty of the Contemporary Center for Advanced Psychoanalytic Studies in New Jersey.


* "In nearly thirty years, I have successfully concluded analyses of one hundred homosexuals ... and have seen nearly five hundred cases in consultation. ... On the basis of the experience thus gathered, I make the positive statement that homosexuality has an excellent prognosis in psychiatric-psychoanalytic treatment of one to two years’ duration, with a minimum of three appointments each week provided the patient really wishes to change."


* "And cure denotes not bisexuality, but real and unfaked heterosexuality."


* "The color of a person’s eyes cannot be changed therapeutically, but homosexuality can be changed by psychotherapy."


Dr. Edmund Bergler, Homosexuality: Disease or Way of Life (New York: Collier Books, 1962), pp. 176, 79, 166. Graduated Vienna’s Medical School and served on staff at the Freud Clinic from 1927 to 1937.


* In 1950, Dr. Anna Freud "lectured in New York on the recent advances in treatment of homosexuals, stating that many of her patients lost their inversion as a result of analysis. This occurred even in those who had proclaimed their wish to remain homosexual when entering treatment, having started only to obtain relief from their homosexual symptoms."


Dr. Charles Socarides, "Homosexuality," American Handbook of Psychiatry, 2nd edition, Vol. 3 (New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1974), p. 308. Dr. Anna Freud studied with her father, Sigmund Freud.


* "I do not believe that there is a basic genetic homosexual tendency in man. If this were true, the cured patient would still have his homosexual needs, which he does not."


Dr. Arthur Janov, The Primal Scream (New York: Dell Publishing Company, 1970), p. 328. Positions held: psychologist and psychiatric social worker at Los Angeles Children’s Hospital and consultant to California Narcotic Outpatient Program. Developed the Primal Scream program.


* "The myth that homosexuality is untreatable still has wide currency among the public at large and among homosexuals themselves. ... Although some gay liberationists argue that it would be preferable to help these persons accept their homosexuality, this writer is of the opinion that, if they wish to change, they deserve the opportunity to try, with all the help that psychiatry can give them. ..."


Dr. Judd Marmor, "Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances," Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry II, 2nd edition, (Baltimore: The Williams & Wilkins Company, 1975), p. 1519. Grad. Columbia University. Positions held: resident neurologist at Montefiore Hospital; president of the American Psychiatric Association; and president of American Academy of Psychoanalysis.


* "There is, nevertheless, continuing conviction among most, although not all, dynamically oriented psychiatrists in general and psychoanalysts in particular that homosexuality can and should be changed to heterosexuality."


Dr. Richard A. Isay, "Homosexuality and Psychiatry," Psychiatric News (February 7, 1992), p.3. Positions held: Clinical professor of psychiatry at Cornell Medical College and chair of the American Psychiatric Association Committee on Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Issues.

http://www.cathfam.org/Hitems/RECOVERY.html

 

[Mariner]

Pale Rider, which certainly document the extent of change within the medical profession, which mirrors the change within society. Notice how there were no controlled studies in the list. That's because there has been none showing that homosexuality is "treatable," while there have been many showing that it is not.

The younger generation of psychiatrists (and physicians in general) would completely disagree with these quotes, and find them an embarrassing chapter in the history of the business. I know this because I teach residents and fellows in my work. And I also know enough older psychiatrists (including psychoanalysts) to say that most have disavowed their previously beliefs on this subject as it has become increasingly clear that you can't change whom someone is sexually attracted to, and that the only impediment to living a fulfilled life as a gay person is others' homophobia.

Mariner.