Stark differences between Ukraine-russia peace proposals between US and Europe

JimH52

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DIFFERENCES
On territory, the Witkoff proposals called for legal U.S. recognition of Russia's control over Crimea, the Ukrainian peninsula Moscow seized and annexed in 2014, plus de facto recognition of Russia's hold on areas of southern and eastern Ukraine that Moscow's forces control.

In contrast, the European and Ukrainian document defers detailed discussion about territory until after a ceasefire is concluded, with no mention in the document of recognising Russian control over any Ukrainian territory.


The basic differencisreally is, trump wants to give Putin whatever he wants while Europe knows he cannot be trusted. But who is surprised a man who is threatening to deport US citizens is such a pal to a murdering dictator?
 

DIFFERENCES
On territory, the Witkoff proposals called for legal U.S. recognition of Russia's control over Crimea, the Ukrainian peninsula Moscow seized and annexed in 2014, plus de facto recognition of Russia's hold on areas of southern and eastern Ukraine that Moscow's forces control.


In contrast, the European and Ukrainian document defers detailed discussion about territory until after a ceasefire is concluded, with no mention in the document of recognising Russian control over any Ukrainian territory.


The basic differencisreally is, trump wants to give Putin whatever he wants while Europe knows he cannot be trusted. But who is surprised a man who is threatening to deport US citizens is such a pal to a murdering dictator?
Wrong again, jimboliar.
Illegals aren't citizens in our country, how about yours?
 
The difference is, Trump understands that America has been defeated in it's war against Russia and he wants to get out of it looking like he's a winner with a peace settlement.

This i a no-brainer.
 
DIFFERENCES
On territory, the Witkoff proposals called for legal U.S. recognition of Russia's control over Crimea, the Ukrainian peninsula Moscow seized and annexed in 2014, plus de facto recognition of Russia's hold on areas of southern and eastern Ukraine that Moscow's forces control.


In contrast, the European and Ukrainian document defers detailed discussion about territory until after a ceasefire is concluded, with no mention in the document of recognising Russian control over any Ukrainian territory.

The basic difference is really is, trump wants to give Putin whatever he wants while Europe knows he cannot be trusted. But who is surprised a man who is threatening to deport US citizens is such a pal to a murdering dictator?
Trump gave peace a chance and both sides refused it. Now Trump is moving on, but with less US aid to Ukraine.
Since the EU wants to play "tough guy" with Putin, now is their chance. Lets see how they do.
 
Trump gave peace a chance and both sides refused it. Now Trump is moving on, but with less US aid to Ukraine.
Since the EU wants to play "tough guy" with Putin, now is their chance. Lets see how they do.
NO, he didn't.
Sure a "peace" deal that gave up mineral rights to the US and land to Russia?

What was Russia willing to give up?
 
NO, he didn't.
Yes Trump gave peace a chance, but both sides refused it.
Sure a "peace" deal that gave up mineral rights to the US and land to Russia?
What was Russia willing to give up?
Russia is giving up the rest of Ukraine. Putin originally wanted ALL of Ukraine.
But since Zelensky thinks he can get Crimea back he said "no" to a ceasefire.
Trump and Zelensky did not sign the mineral deal.
Now we can see how the EU does trying to end the war.
 

DIFFERENCES
On territory, the Witkoff proposals called for legal U.S. recognition of Russia's control over Crimea, the Ukrainian peninsula Moscow seized and annexed in 2014, plus de facto recognition of Russia's hold on areas of southern and eastern Ukraine that Moscow's forces control.


In contrast, the European and Ukrainian document defers detailed discussion about territory until after a ceasefire is concluded, with no mention in the document of recognising Russian control over any Ukrainian territory.


The basic differencisreally is, trump wants to give Putin whatever he wants while Europe knows he cannot be trusted. But who is surprised a man who is threatening to deport US citizens is such a pal to a murdering dictator?
One thing that makes no sense is that Crimea has been part of Russia since Obama let Russia annex it. So, if Ukraine and the world cede Crimea to Russia, they are only giving Russia something that was already theirs in the first place.
 
what's funny? Rubio tried but both sides refused a peace deal.
Rubio just repeated Trump's proposal.
A non starter for Ukraine,
So keep fighting and dying.

Yes, but he was stopped from taking all of Ukraine.
Yeah, BY Ukraine
Getting US mining companies in Ukraine is consequential. It would come with "NATO" peacekeepers.
WOW, I wonder why Ukraine didn't accept that?
 
One thing that makes no sense is that Crimea has been part of Russia since Obama let Russia annex it.
Actually, Crimea is a part of Russia since 1783, and, as far as I can remember, the president of the USA was George Washington in time, but I really doubt that he was influencional enough to do anything about it. Who actually allowed it, and who did lost Crimea was Ottoman Khalif Abdul Khamid I.

So, if Ukraine and the world cede Crimea to Russia, they are only giving Russia something that was already theirs in the first place.
Actually, the whole Ukraine is already ours. The only question we have now - is how many of you we should kill to force you recognise the reality.
 
Rubio just repeated Trump's proposal.
A non starter for Ukraine,

Yeah, BY Ukraine
Backed and financed by NATO. Stop funding them and supplying them and Ukraine will be finished pretty soon. Continue fund and supply them - and you'll be finished quite soon. Now, its up to you: make few steps back and de-escalate, or escalate and get yourself killed.

WOW, I wonder why Ukraine didn't accept that?
Not "Ukraine", of course. Kievan regime. And they won't accept it for the very simple reason - for Zelenskiy words "peace" and "death sentence" are totally equal.
 
what's funny? Rubio tried but both sides refused a peace deal. So keep fighting and dying.

Yes, but he was stopped from taking all of Ukraine.

Getting US mining companies in Ukraine is consequential. It would come with "NATO" peacekeepers.
24 hours :itsok:
 

DIFFERENCES
On territory, the Witkoff proposals called for legal U.S. recognition of Russia's control over Crimea, the Ukrainian peninsula Moscow seized and annexed in 2014, plus de facto recognition of Russia's hold on areas of southern and eastern Ukraine that Moscow's forces control.


In contrast, the European and Ukrainian document defers detailed discussion about territory until after a ceasefire is concluded, with no mention in the document of recognising Russian control over any Ukrainian territory.


The basic differencisreally is, trump wants to give Putin whatever he wants while Europe knows he cannot be trusted. But who is surprised a man who is threatening to deport US citizens is such a pal to a murdering dictator?

Russia may agree not to take Alaska and California while Trump is still the POTUS.
Isn't it more than enough?
You Russkies and leftist shills have some interesting fantasies.
There'd be line of campers and 4x4s all the way to Alaska.
Maybe we'd just lay down a line of fire and watch the ice the Russkies are set up on crack off and sink.
Russia's all drained out with Ukraine. They should stop.
 
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Backed and financed by NATO. Stop funding them and supplying them and Ukraine will be finished pretty soon. Continue fund and supply them - and you'll be finished quite soon. Now, its up to you: make few steps back and de-escalate, or escalate and get yourself killed.


Not "Ukraine", of course. Kievan regime. And they won't accept it for the very simple reason - for Zelenskiy words "peace" and "death sentence" are totally equal.
You confused Zelensky with Putin.
 
White Lives Matter More to Trump, Zelensky, and Putin:

In the wake of George Floyd's 2020 murder millions of people around the world protested against the systemic racism displayed by Floyd's killers.

Not in Ukraine or Trump Tower:

White Lives Matter more in Ukraine | MR Online

"In June 2020, a group of football fans at a match in Ukraine unfurled a banner reading, 'Free Derek Chauvin.'

"Chauvin is the man who murdered George Floyd. Not to be outdone, members of the neo-Nazi group Nazionalny Sprotyv, National Resistance, marched on October 14, 2020 with a banner that made the point very clear.

"The words 'White Lives Matter' were written in English and in much larger type than the name of the organization which appeared in small type below.

"October 14 is celebrated as the Day of the UPA, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which fought alongside Nazi Germany after it invaded Ukraine during World War II."

Trump's concern with Ukraine has little to do with bringing peace to that country, but to resolve tensions between the US and Russia.

Trump views Russia as a natural ally seeing common ground in a White Christian Conservative worldview that considers liberalism, wokeism, and communism as threats to Western Civilization.

Impossible for a president of the imperialist U.S. to be a peacemaker | MR Online
 
You confused Zelensky with Putin.
Actually there is a little difference between positions of Zelenskiy and Putin. Yes, in some way we can compare Russian people with a drunkard who, against his will, was not allowed to drink alcohol for a long time. He have been dreaming about it, he was thirsty as hell, but he was denied of it. But then you gave him a few glasses of Martini, and after it, you try to take it back. Yes, there are pretty good chances that that drunkard will gone completely nuts and will try to smash your head with a mallet (no reasons, no arguments, no talks helps). Putin gave Russians some of NATO blood and if now he'll try to take it back... It might cause problems. But, if the peace terms looks like as "acceptable" and "profitable", Putin, has good chances to defuze the situation. Peace itself won't be a big problem.

For Zelenskiy situation is different. First he simply knows too much and there are not to many places on the planet where he had chances to hide from Demparty controlled CIA thugs. Second - whoever is the next president of Ukraine, his first thing to do will be eliminate Zelenskiy to enforce his own power.
 
You Russkies and leftist shills have some interesting fantasies.
There'd be line of campers and 4x4s all the way to Alaska.
Maybe we'd just lay down a line of fire and watch the ice the Russkies are set up on crack off and sink.
Russia's all drained out with Ukraine. They should stop.
Of course it doesn't work that way. It will start with Russian counter-force nuclear strike against US nuclear forces. As in the movie "The first strike" (1980). Then, after American decision "no immediate retaliation, lets make peace talks" Russia suggest pretty generous peace terms: America returns to Russia Alaska and California, and continue its existence as an independent (even nuclear) state and still member of UNSC. And if we have the agreement - there will be peaceful transit of power with some decent ceremony.

And no, you guys have interesting fantasies that Russia can give up Ukraine to NATO.
 
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Satellite images show Iran's new drone carrier has set sail,

leaving its home port for the first time

6 Dec 2024 ~~ By Josh Epstein
  • Iran has spent the past few years turning a container ship into a militarized drone carrier.
  • New satellite images show the Shahid Bagheri has left its home port for the first time.
  • The vessel's development highlights Tehran's efforts to project power farther out.
A container ship that Iran has spent the past few years turning into a militarized drone carrier has left its home port for the first time, recent satellite imagery obtained by Business Insider shows.
In an image captured on November 12 by BlackSky, which provides space-based real-time intelligence, the new Shahid Bagheri can be seen at an Iranian shipyard along the Persian Gulf.
But an image captured a little more than two weeks later, on November 28, shows the Bagheri missing from its berth at the Iran Shipbuilding & Offshore Industries Complex, just west of the southern port city of Bandar Abbas.
Open-source intelligence gathered by H I Sutton, an independent defense analyst, suggests that the Bagheri left the port to begin sea trials off Iran's coast. It's unclear whether these are still ongoing. When asked to comment on the situation, a US defense official said the military didn't provide assessments on adversary capabilities or actions.
The Bagheri started as a container ship known as the Perarin, but in 2021, Iran began working on the vessel to transform it into a functional drone carrier for the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy.

At nearly 790 feet long, the Bagheri somewhat resembles a Soviet aircraft carrier with a distinctive ski-jump ramp, which was added in 2023. The ship's angled flight deck, used for launching and recovering drones, measures just under 600 feet.


~Snip~
The capabilities of the Bagheri and Mahdavi don't come close to those of the American carriers, which can launch and recover advanced fighter jets and travel with smaller but powerful warships. But the Iranian vessels could still have an impact in an asymmetrical naval warfare role, especially if they're armed with missiles, helicopters, and drones.
Heavily armed drone carriers such as the Bagheri could allow Iran to engage in this kind of warfare at greater distances rather than being constrained to its neighborhood or having to rely on proxy forces.
"They should be considered a threat not only to sea lines of communication and freedom of shipping and things like that but also to coastal and inland facilities and infrastructure as well," Nadimi said.


Commentary:
Meanwhile, our East coast cities and States are reporting unknown aircraft (drones) flying within our airspace.
Didn't Joey B just extended wavers on the $108 Billion sanctions against Iran.
At nearly 790 feet long, the Bagheri should be really easy to sink when the time comes to neutralize it.
That ship should be deep in the Hudson Rover Canyon off the East Coast.
Drones are the future of warfare and it's a fairly low cost real world solution. The age of iron sides and battle ships went bye bye with advances in air craft tech and other innovations the big floating cities at sea will be scaled back and eventually even eliminated as unmanned systems get perfected less need for humans at risk. Nationalism aside it's undeniable a great concept how it used remains to be seen.

Expand article logo


Of course it doesn't work that way. It will start with Russian counter-force nuclear strike against US nuclear forces. As in the movie "The first strike" (1980). Then, after American decision "no immediate retaliation, lets make peace talks" Russia suggest pretty generous peace terms: America returns to Russia Alaska and California, and continue its existence as an independent (even nuclear) state and still member of UNSC. And if we have the agreement - there will be peaceful transit of power with some decent ceremony.

And no, you guys have interesting fantasies that Russia can give up Ukraine to NATO.
Where was The Holodomor, moron? Russia has not done very good by Ukraine.
 
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