What's new
US Message Board 🦅 Political Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Sovereignty, who is your sovereign?

anotherlife

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
6,456
Reaction score
377
Points
130
Location
Cross-Atlantic
To have a judicial branch, you need sovereignty. But who can provide it? A 200 years ago, it was kings that provided it, and everyone knew the name of his king. Who provides sovereignty in the 21st century? Is it money, that is the banks? If yes, then is it an automatic system with its own "natural" financial laws that provides sovereignty? Banks are governed by individuals though. When kings provided it, it was easy to see the top of this structure. Now few people even want to look. So here is the question to flush this out. Who provides sovereignty in the 21st century? Even for the USA?
 

Skylar

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2014
Messages
43,423
Reaction score
9,455
Points
2,030
The sovereign in the US is the Constitution.

I'd say that constitutionally, the Sovereign in the US is the Several States. As they have power over the Constitution.

As for sovereignty more philosophically, we do. Rather than sovereignty being imbued in one person like a king it is diffused into large groups and wielded at the threshold of the relevant majority.
 

IsaacNewton

Gold Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
17,308
Reaction score
3,680
Points
290
The sovereign in the US is the Constitution.

I'd say that constitutionally, the Sovereign in the US is the Several States. As they have power over the Constitution.

As for sovereignty more philosophically, we do. Rather than sovereignty being imbued in one person like a king it is diffused into large groups and wielded at the threshold of the relevant majority.

The states have authority over the Constitution in the long view. They can, if enough agree, go to convention and vote changes to it. But in the interim they are subservient to it.

And I'd agree in principal, the people have the sovereignty. It is codified and enacted via the Constitution. The main point is no man is sovereign.
 

Skylar

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2014
Messages
43,423
Reaction score
9,455
Points
2,030
The sovereign in the US is the Constitution.

I'd say that constitutionally, the Sovereign in the US is the Several States. As they have power over the Constitution.

As for sovereignty more philosophically, we do. Rather than sovereignty being imbued in one person like a king it is diffused into large groups and wielded at the threshold of the relevant majority.

The states do not have authority over the federal Constitution.

Sure they do. The Several States can amend it anytime they wish. And there's no restriction on their amendments. They can do.....anything.

If they can agree. Constitutional sovereignty is difficulty to exercise by design.

And I'd agree in principal, the people have the sovereignty. It is codified and enacted via the Constitution. The main point is no man is sovereign.

With the Constitution opening with 'We the People of the United States'. The Constitution is the agents of the Several States. Which in turn are agents of the People.

All authority is derived from us. So we'd have to be the philosophical basis of any discussion of sovereignty.
 

IsaacNewton

Gold Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
17,308
Reaction score
3,680
Points
290
The sovereign in the US is the Constitution.

I'd say that constitutionally, the Sovereign in the US is the Several States. As they have power over the Constitution.

As for sovereignty more philosophically, we do. Rather than sovereignty being imbued in one person like a king it is diffused into large groups and wielded at the threshold of the relevant majority.

The states do not have authority over the federal Constitution.

Sure they do. The Several States can amend it anytime they wish. And there's no restriction on their amendments. They can do.....anything.

If they can agree. Constitutional sovereignty is difficulty to exercise by design.

And I'd agree in principal, the people have the sovereignty. It is codified and enacted via the Constitution. The main point is no man is sovereign.

With the Constitution opening with 'We the People of the United States'. The Constitution is the agents of the Several States. Which in turn are agents of the People.

All authority is derived from us. So we'd have to be the philosophical basis of any discussion of sovereignty.

I edited before you posted after some thought.
 

Skylar

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2014
Messages
43,423
Reaction score
9,455
Points
2,030
The states have authority over the Constitution in the long view. They can, if enough agree, go to convention and vote changes to it. But in the interim they are subservient to it.

It doesn't have to be that long. And there's nothing the constitution can do to stop from being amended. Its a piece of paper. Its the ideas and authority it represents that grant it power. And both the ideas and authority of the constitution are subject to the will of the several states.

Barring that threshold of the Several States, the Constitution is Supreme. But its Supreme....because it wields the authority of the Several States. Which in turn wield the authority of the People.
 

IsaacNewton

Gold Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
17,308
Reaction score
3,680
Points
290
The states have authority over the Constitution in the long view. They can, if enough agree, go to convention and vote changes to it. But in the interim they are subservient to it.

It doesn't have to be that long. And there's nothing the constitution can do to stop from being amended. Its a piece of paper. Its the ideas and authority it represents that grant it power. And both the ideas and authority of the constitution are subject to the will of the several states.

Barring that threshold of the Several States, the Constitution is Supreme. But its Supreme....because it wields the authority of the Several States. Which in turn wield the authority of the People.

Well ideally anyway. In practice not so much.
 

Skylar

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2014
Messages
43,423
Reaction score
9,455
Points
2,030
The states have authority over the Constitution in the long view. They can, if enough agree, go to convention and vote changes to it. But in the interim they are subservient to it.

It doesn't have to be that long. And there's nothing the constitution can do to stop from being amended. Its a piece of paper. Its the ideas and authority it represents that grant it power. And both the ideas and authority of the constitution are subject to the will of the several states.

Barring that threshold of the Several States, the Constitution is Supreme. But its Supreme....because it wields the authority of the Several States. Which in turn wield the authority of the People.

Well ideally anyway. In practice not so much.

That kind of power is only trumped by capital R Revolution. So it had to be hard to exercise.

The beauty of the American system of governance is its inefficiency. Its remarkably difficult to consolidate power. That forces compromise in order to govern.

And it usually works.
 

Blackrook

Platinum Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
20,684
Reaction score
10,067
Points
940
The people are sovereign in the United States. That can be seen in the preamble of the Constitution.

"We the people..."
 

indago

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
1,114
Reaction score
108
Points
85
From The Associated Press 1 October 2016:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Michigan State Police say a man killed by troopers after a high-speed chase was 37 years old and lived in suburban Detroit.

...Shaw says Parent was shot Friday in Van Buren Township after running from his pickup truck and aiming a gun at troopers. He says Parent earlier refused to show identification during a traffic stop and swiftly drove away.

Shaw says Parent told troopers he was a "sovereign citizen" who didn't need to comply. Investigators are trying to determine the significance of Parent's statement.

The term sometimes is used by people who reject their U.S. citizenship and typically don't recognize government authority.
--------------------------------------------------------------

article

There is no sovereignty in the US. The feudal society concepts, of sovereigns, and subjects, were rejected within our founding documents.
 
OP
anotherlife

anotherlife

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
6,456
Reaction score
377
Points
130
Location
Cross-Atlantic
From The Associated Press 1 October 2016:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Michigan State Police say a man killed by troopers after a high-speed chase was 37 years old and lived in suburban Detroit.

...Shaw says Parent was shot Friday in Van Buren Township after running from his pickup truck and aiming a gun at troopers. He says Parent earlier refused to show identification during a traffic stop and swiftly drove away.

Shaw says Parent told troopers he was a "sovereign citizen" who didn't need to comply. Investigators are trying to determine the significance of Parent's statement.

The term sometimes is used by people who reject their U.S. citizenship and typically don't recognize government authority.
--------------------------------------------------------------

article

There is no sovereignty in the US. The feudal society concepts, of sovereigns, and subjects, were rejected within our founding documents.

I think sovereignty used to mean the highest level of the power structure. A ruling circle of individuals that determin and enforce the rights and lives of all on the land. In the US this role has changed hands a few times, from pilgrims to plantation owners, to industrialists, and most recently to central investment bankers.
 

💲 Amazon Deals 💲

Forum List

Top